THEME READ FOR MARCH: Social Class

Our theme for March is "social class." On a basic level, a social class system can be defined as a stratification of power. Depending on the society, one's place can be determined by many factors, including education, wealth, family pedigree, sex, strength, ethnicity. Frequently, classes will develop distinctive attire and manner to further set themselves apart. Some societies have many opportunities for social mobility while others have a more rigid structure.

So, pick a book for this month that deals in some way with this theme. When you decide which book you want to read, post here to let us know what you pick! Then, in March, we'll discuss how our authors treated the theme. Any book, any genre--the only requirement is that the book be written by a woman!

If you have any books that you've read to recommend for others, feel free to add those suggestions to this thread as well (simply give the title and the author).

I hope you all participate!

alphaorder: The Space Between Us by Thrity Umrigar
christiguc: Doreen by Barbara Noble
legxleg: Summer by Edith Wharton
avaland: Vale of Tears by Paulette Oriol
strandbooks: The Radiant Way by Margaret Drabble
lindsacl: The Space Between Us by Thrity Umrigar
collsers: Persuasion by Jane Austen
Cariola: The Sari Shop by Rupa Bajwa
oh2read: To Kill a Mockingbird by Harper Lee

I'm looking forward to exploring possibilities here! Thanks for setting up the thread!

Cariola suggested:

Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen
The House of Mirth by Edith Wharton
Mrs. Dalloway by Virginia Woolf
Bobbin Up by Dorothy Hewett
Minaret by Leila Aboulela
The Linnet Bird by Linda Holeman

This sounds like a fun idea. I like the idea of group reads, so I joined up. The book I just finished - Summer by Edith Wharton - fits pretty well with the theme, I think. Is it all right if I use that for the group read? Of course, it's no real hardship to read something else as well. :-) I'm looking forward to March.

Off the top of my head (without listing the obvious 19th century British lit)

Rebecca, Daphne Du Maurier (also suggested under the 'dislocated women theme)
Life in the Iron Mills, Rebecca Harding Davis
The House of Mirth, Edith Wharton
The Sari Shop by Rupa Bajwa
The Space Between Us, Thrity Umrigar
Books by Toni Morrison
Wide Sargasso Sea, Jean Rhys
White Teeth, On Beauty by Zadie Smith
Property by Valerie Martin

>4 legxleg: However you want. The idea is to pick a book to read that fits the theme, but since you just finished it, if you don't pick another one, I don't think anyone will hold it against you! :)

Here's some that I suggest might be fun:

Crewe Train by Rose Macaulay
The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy
Without My Cloak by Kate O'Brien
The Edwardians by Vita Sackville-West
The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood
Nickel and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich

Here are books by LTers who have used the tag "social classes"

http://www.librarything.com/subject.php?subject=Social+classes

eta to add this list also:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/webbin/book/browse?type=lcsubc&key=Soci...

Also:
A Fine Balance
The Observations
Mansfield Park

I am trying to work my way through some of the books already in my house and on my TBR pile. So I guess I will take avaland's suggestion of The Space Between Us.

Both On Beauty and The Space Between Us have been sitting on my TBR shelf for awhile, so I may choose one of those.

Are we keeping this to just books 'by' women or 'by' and 'about' women? I'll go pose the same question on the general 'theme read' thread so as not to clutter up this thread.

I'll read Doreen by Barbara Noble.

Trash or Bastard Out of Carolina by Doroty Allison would certainly fit...

Oops--yes, I think it should be by women only. I've scratched my previous suggestion.

If you need book suggestions, visit the Class Action website (www.classism.org). If the subject interests you and you live in the Boston/Cambridge area, the Center for New Words (Where Women's Words Matter) will be sponsoring a 2 month book group called Reading Class which will be facilitated by Betsy Leondar-Wright , author of Class Matters : Cross-Class Alliance Building for Middle-Class Activists. The Center for New Words website is www.centerfornewwords.org.

Maybe Barbara Pym's A Glass of Blessings? I understand it addresses class, though it's a Pym I haven't yet read.

I was going to read The Space Between Us this month. But maybe I'll wait and use it for this theme read ...

I think I'm going to use the book I just read, Vale of Tears by Paulette Oriol.

Avaland....I think Vale of Tears works well here. I'm reading it now and it seems that Coralie travels the whole strata of social classes...and there will be much to talk about. =)

Especially, Irisheyz, because the way the book is set up one can see at the beginning where she will end up!

Yes, I liked that. From the start of the book you see how she started and how she ended...and as the story progresses you come full circle.

You will have to tell me via private post what you thought of the ending.

If my PBS copy of The Edwardians arrives in time (it's coming from Singapore), I'll read that. If not, I'll go with The Space Between Us.

I quickly thumbed through my 1001 books to read before you die for some inspiration. Afte reading some synopsis, I came up with this short list to take to the library:

wild swans Jung Chang
The Radiant Way Margarte Drabble
The Colour Rose Tremaine
Fear and Trembling Amelie NOthomb
Jazz Toni Morrison
Indigo Marina Warner
Hideous Kinky Esther Freud
them Joyce Carol Oates

The library only had The Radiant Way. Not really my first choice, but it looks interesting and like it can fit in this theme pretty well.

Oh, good, I also have Indigo on my TBR shelf. Have been wanting to read it to go along with teaching The Tempest, os maybe I'll try that one instead.

I can't get the correct Indigo touchstone. Not sure why it isn't coming up

>27 strandbooks: I think the touchstones are throwing a fit and want this whole title: Indigo, or Mapping the Waters

I know it's not March yet, but I'm going to start The Space Between Us today, having just given up on another book.

>29 lauralkeet: I think the calendar is somewhat fluid:-)

I didn't mean to finish The Radiant Way in one weekend, but I couldn't put it down. There is so much involved with social class and women's roles in the UK from 1950-1980. I found out there is a sequel so I'm going to get that and include it in my March read.

I'm going to go with Persuasion by Jane Austen...it's been in my TBR pile for quite awhile

Is anyone else reading an Austen novel for March?

OK, I finally have made my decision. I will be reading The Sari Shop by Rupa Bajwa.

Good choice, Deborah. I enjoyed it.

My mom (the librarian) helped me make up my mind. She could not believe I had never read To Kill a Mockingbird. I was telling her about this theme read, and making some suggestions about books I had considered. She is actually the one who chose the book.

I started TKaM 3 days ago, and I'm really enjoying it. I'm ready to discuss when y'all are.

mess 32

I do own Persuasion and I want to read it. I can start it tonight. I watched the PBS show and I want to watch other versions of Persuasion too.

And for mess 35

oh2read

I am reading TKaM right now. I love the names Scout, Jem, and Dill.

It took me several pages to realize Scout is a girl. And keep reading, Dill is a doozy.

I finished The Space Between Us. I really liked the book, and the social class theme is very strong. In my review I wrote, On the surface it would appear the two women have overcome class differences and forged a deep and lasting friendship. Yet Sera will not allow Bhima to sit on her furniture. There are many other small indications along the way, until the novel’s climax fully exposes the chasm between the two women. In the final analysis, class differences reinforce one woman’s privilege and the other’s destitution.

Has anyone else read this book?

No, I haven't. I'll read your full review later. Actually I finished my book; where can I post a review?
I don't want to give a spoiler here, in case any of you are reading, or want to read it in the future.
However, there is a twist at the end I truly didn't see coming. Don't know how. Any of you from the American South who haven't read this, you should. You'll probably identify with its characters and themes very strongly. I know I did. I could have been reading about my hometown.

>39 oh2read: oh2read, you asked, where can I post a review?

You can post a review right here on LibraryThing. To do this, go to your library, edit the book (click on the pencil in your catalog listing), and you'll find space there to put your review. Does that help?

May I still do that in my library if I borrowed the book from the library in town? although I will certainly obtain a copy as quickly as possible now.

Oh, absolutely! The only requirement is that you have to have the book in your LT library to write a review. People's approach to their LT libraries vary. Some people only have books they actually own. Me, I catalog books I've read. I'm a huge library user and I do a lot of swapping on Paperbackswap -- but all of those books are in my library, and I review everything I read.

I have now posted my review of To Kill a Mockingbird. Hope it makes some of you interested in reading it. I may try to get another book done in March if I have time. Am doing another theme read at Green Dragon. I think I invited y'all. Come on over if you want to join us, too.

http://www.librarything.com/profile_reviews.php?view=oh2read

nice review, oh2read, but now you must tell us how it relates to social class:-)

I read Vale of Tears by Paulette Oriol which is set in Haiti from about 1920s through the 1980s.The story chronicles the social demise of the beautiful Coralie Santueil whose family wields great financial power in Haiti. We see her as a young girl in a convent school and we see her old, worn out and begging. The story is structured so that the reader knows up front that Coralie will descend to the point where, as an older woman, she must beg from friends and family for her rent money, so I'm not including any spoilers by mentioning this.

Coralie's father owned a store that provided imported European goods to the very wealthy families of Haiti. In the process he became very rich himself. It is at this financial point, so to speak, that we are introduced to the story. Coralie (who is white, btw) makes an advantageous, loveless marriage to an older (very much so), wealthy man and has a son by him. I won't chronicle the details of her humiliating decline, which parallels the fate of many, many poor Haitians, but there is really no one to blame for it than Coralie herself. She seems to be a good student in school but remains naive and somewhat foolish, which makes her vulnerable to being victimized by her wicked stepmother. At a base level she has no practical skills; her greatest asset and only survival skill (if it can be called that) is her beauty which, of course, fades as the decades pass.

Coralie is more than a Paris Hilton type; she does have some admirable qualities (perhaps 'admirable' is too strong) but she fails to learn from things she should learn from, and when she does learn, it's too late. Despite her faults and foolishness, we still grieve at her humiliating decline.

As Coralie descends the social ladder, we get glimpses of each social rung on it, from the display of her father's funeral to Carolie's washing the underwear of prostitutes.

mess 43

Hi oh2read.

Nice review. I'm still reading it

Well, Ava, long and short of it is, Tom Robinson would not get a fair shake, EVEN under the law, because the Ewell girl he was accused of raping, was white (Sorry, spoiler.) Whites, even white trash, always ranked above Negroes in the South. There is a caste system here: 1) whites with some money, or long family background; 2) white trash- that's lazy, dependent on system, etc.; then 3) negroes. Negroes are always last, even though as in the book, they keep themselves and their small amount of property as neat and proper as #1 category of whites.
Also the class question comes up when the trial reveals that Mayella and her father, Bob Ewell, lied about the whole rape. In the eyes of the town now, a Negro comes out more honorable than the white trash Ewell. That cannot be, so Mr. Ewell goes after everyone who made him look foolish (judge, lawyer, defendant), even though it is he who made himself look foolish.

There's your Southern caste lesson for today. And I am sad to say that much of the old system is still around today.

#45 hope that review isn't too long and wordy for you.

I read Dorothy Day's The Long Loneliness, an autobiography written about 30 years before Day's death.

She was born in 1897 into a solidly middle-class family, though her mother had worked in the garment industry for a short time before her marriage. Her father was a newspaper reporter.

As a child, she enjoyed going to the Episcopal Church, but she later felt Christians simply threw money at the poor to assuage their consciences. She felt the need to truly live what Jesus said, though she considered herself an atheist at this time, and began rabble rousing, first as a Suffragette (she was jailed several times for her activities), and then as an anarchist.

Day started her newspaper career writing for various socialist papers, and her first assignment was to do an experiment to see how cheaply you could live in New York City. That meant living in a tenement, and Day found that she loved being thrown among new immigrants and embraced a life of simplicity and voluntary poverty.

Day interviewed many famous communists and socialists, including Trotsky and Lenin. She knew Eugene O'Neill and other literary lights of the day.

Day's father hated her involvement with leftists, and while she talks about her younger sister and brother, one is left to surmise that she was somewhat estranged from her parents and two older brothers, who led more conventional lives.

After an abortion (which Day doesn't talk about in her book), she moved to a kind of hermitage on Staten Island and became friends with a "beachcomber" who lived solely from his lobster pots, his garden and occasional day labor. Despite his poverty, he enjoyed Day's visits so much that fixed up deck chair for her, and served her coffee and meals when she visited.

Eventually, she entered into a free-love relationship with a socialist. They lived on Staten Island, and she began attending Mass for reasons she could not articulate to herself. She eventually had a child whom she had baptized. It was another year before she herself took the plunge, spending that time trying to persuade her common-law husband to marry her. He wouldn't and she finally left (though she remained a lifelong friend of her daughter's husband, which she does not discuss in the book).

Day set out looking for work, in California where she tried writing screenplays, and then went to Mexico on a writing assignment. She finally returned to New York City where she met Peter Maurin, an itinerant preacher, who urged her to embrace voluntary poverty and feed the hungry, house the homeless, and this she began to do as an anarchist Catholic in a more deliberate way.

Their publication was The Catholic Worker, and it spoke out about racial, wage and other inequalities. It's still operating. And it still only costs a penny an issue.

Day's missions (she called them "houses of hospitality") offended middle- and upper-class sensibilities. The bulk of the people she fed and clothed were down and out due to the Depression. But she didn't turn away alcoholics and prostitutes, whom society viewed as undeserving.

Day helped shape modern notions of Catholic social justice. She traveled extensively, wrote constantly. While she herself had little money and gave away most of her possessions so as not to be fettered by things, she also had a lot of power, stemming not from social class but moral fortitude. When the governor of Arkansas tried to bust a strike by sending in the National Guard, Day telegraphed Eleanor Roosevelt, who called the governor and got him to call off the soldiers.

Day talks a lot about the Russian novelists--Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, especially--who shaped her ideas about society. She also read a lot of Dickens and was moved by both the book and movie versions of "The Grapes of Wrath," seeing particularly the fact that Ma Joad was the wellspring of the family's decency and dignity.

After reading the book, it would be easy to say that Day's book is about transcending social class. But I don't think it is.

Day had two years of college at a time when many women didn't even graduate from grade school. She had a happy and stable childhood. She was articulate and well-connected, both in her socialist phase and as a practicing Catholic. If she lived AS a poor person and AMONG poor people, she was not OF the poor.

While I would never (as a Catholic myself) undercut the role of Day's faith in her work, she never lost her middle-class lens. She could be shocked at the conditions of the poor partly because she was middle-class and knew something better. That lens also allowed her to make distinctions between poverty (living with only what you need) and destitution (not having proper food, clothing or shelter). Most of all, Day CHOSE poverty, and, in choosing it, allowed it to affect her spirituality. These are not things that people born into poverty can always do.

Her biography asks us, in part, I think, to consider whether we can truly escape the social class into which we are born--or at least the attitudes of that class which shape our young lives. It also forces us to confront the fact that America is not a classless society. People move around within class in a somewhat fluid way, but circumstances of birth, race, gender, family connections and inherited wealth often dictate where and how you'll move.

OMG, I'm SO sorry for the length of the above. Maybe avaland, who suggested the theme reads, can give us some pointers about how to keep these things shorter. Seems like you have to at least outline the basic plot and then talk about the them, and that gets you a fairly long post.

I'll try to edit.

>48 nohrt4me: I think we can post as we like, although we should make note of how the books relate to the theme.

>46 oh2read: thanks for the lesson. I've read the book, but others may have not.

It also forces us to confront the fact that America is not a classless society. People move around within class in a somewhat fluid way, but circumstances of birth, race, gender, family connections and inherited wealth often dictate where and how you'll move.

How very true. Because of the 'rags to riches' American myth, we often assume that one can easily move up the rungs of the class ladder, but this has been generally rare. Seems I've read some bits about social class in America in some of Robert Reich's writings.

#48 Nohrt4me

That is one of the best reviews of Dorothy Day's works I've ever read. You are concise, objective, & very much on the subject of social class. Yes, there is indeed social class in the US, we just don't talk about it so much today, but at least in small towns it is alive & well. It's been a long while since I've read Dorothy Day, tho I recently gave one of her books to a friend who had newly converted. No w I will search out The long lonliness & read it.
Is it possible for you to have your review posted on the "review" link?

Hi - I have been watching this thread and was not sure about joining in - hope it is not too late!

I am reading The Lying Days by Nadine Gordimer. Set in South Africa and published in 1953 it is the story of young Helen growing up into womanhood and her growing awareness of her uniquely strange society. That is one in which the 'under class' also have a different colour of skin.

Review will follow when I complete this so far, excellent book.

it's never too late to join in:-)

I thought not - but following an invite to join I have posted a little and lurked a lot up till now! I am finding the threads here very stimulating and thought provoking - you have a great group here. Thank you!

Just had a thought (wow!) I'm reading The Mists of Avalon by Marion Z. Bradley for my Greendragon group read. I am discovering that social class is playing a role in the book. Well, at least, I think so.
Tell me what you think.

In the first few chapters, we see Igraine, King Arthur's mother, and Gorlois, her husband. Gorlois is a Christian, and does not accept the old pagan religions at all. Igraine is from Avalon, a matriachial society, and they believe in the Druid gods, and Earth as Goddess. Igraine is destined to bear a son, Arthur, by Uther Pendragon, who was a priest of the old religion in another incarnation.
There is major conflict between Gorlois and Igraine, Christian and pagan at this point in the story. This will be a theme throughout the book also. I think religious issues count as social classes.
Give me some feedback, please, and I will stop posting this book if y'all feel it doesn't fit.

mess 46

NO! your review is not too long. I am a slow reader and I am still reading the book. But don't worry about spoilers. They never bother me. If I read something, I'll still want to know how it happened exactly.

I'm close to page 50. And I do agree with all the social aspects that are highlighted, but what brings me closer to the story are the interpersonal relationships and human nature. I adored the whole story of the first day of school. The view from Scout was clear and simple, uncluttered by bigotry, just the facts. Her taking account of severe poverty as just the way some are is maturity well beyond her years and so touching. And Jem's understanding of those with less them he has, even though he does not have a mother which is major, makes him the personification of justice. And they have , so far, the best father I have met in a long, long time. His advice is truely teaching love. Gosh, all this and I have not hit page 50. The language is remarkable also.

oh2read, I'd be interested in knowing more about how you see religion in "Mists" related to social class.

Often, religion becomes a symbol of class affiliation.

For instance, many of our upstanding Founding Fathers of the gentry class were Episcopalians. Those who lived in the mountains and were illiterate were often Pentecostals.

And many new immigrants in the early 20th Century were reviled for their language, poverty and religion.

#55 I agree with everything you have said so far. As for the prose, it is lovely. I have been using tidbits of it on the Guess the Book thread over in Book Talk, I think is the group. Of course somebody guessed it right away, so the only bit I got to leave was the one about the ladies bathing and being like soft teacakes with frosting of sweet talcum.
#56 May I first say that my dad is a United Methodist minister. My perspective is formed largely by that exposure.
Religion is mostly defined by the social class of the people who celebrate it and believe its particular doctrines. Sometimes it relates to race, and sometimes it relates to citizenship, and sometimes to money.
perhaps we should chat about this elsewhere, if we want any depth to our views. I wouldn't want to offend everyone on this thread, even though I did bring it up.
I do want to say though that this is not the first book I have read that deals with MotherEarth/goddess/paganism. I find it terribly fascinating, and I can really see how a religion based on matriarchy has advantages. As a woman, it has been enlightening to learn about this.

>58 oh2read: and sometimes education.

>58 oh2read: oh2read, wrote I find it terribly fascinating, and I can really see how a religion based on matriarchy has advantages.

Me too. Mists of Avalon was introduced to me by a liberal female Presbyterian minister friend, and in a roundabout way served as my introduction to feminist theology. It got me started reading nonfiction on the role of women in the early Christian era, and generally questioning the patriarchal focus so common in mainstream religion. Good stuff ... keep on reading Mists!

Reading these last few posts and following on from lindsacl comment on feminist theology should we contemplate having a themed read on religion in this group I wonder ... In that way those wishing to join in would know the subject and could abstain from it if they preferred.

Another thought - has anyone suggested women and education for a theme?

Edited for typos.

Off to the 'theme read' thread you two! :-) Make your suggestions there (I think nohrt4me has suggested religion or spirituality, but do express your interest also - a volunteer to facilitate the discussion is good also:-)). I think any theme is appropriate if there is enough interest.

Great idea and I would be honored to collaborate with juliette on this theme!

My theme is women and beauty (because I am so lovely!), so feel free.

Adam Bede and Tess of the D'urbervilles would make great "classics" on the women and religion/spirituality theme. Ditto the memoirs of Lady Murasaki or Pearl Buck's The Pavilion of Women.

As I read further into Mists the social/religious theme goes on. After Igraine marries Uther (remember he is a pagan priest) they have a son, Arthur (Gwydion). Isn't it funny that they call Arthur "Gwydion" at home? That is most certainly a pagan name. Uther undertakes the task of turning Britain into a Christian nation, and conquering the last of the pagan tribes.
When Arthur is about 6 years old, he takes a fall which may kill him. Viviane, his aunt, comes to Igraine, and heals him, while all Father Columba can do is mumble prayers and offer up "Our Father"'s. Uther freaks, and refuses to send Arthur to Avalon for fostering and protection. He also tries to send Morgaine to a nunnery, but Viviane prevails and take her to Avalon.
Her initial reception into the castle highlights vividly the class differences, as the men at arms address her as a beggar, and the ladies in waiting treat her much the same inside the castle.

*Discussion on the women and religion theme here:

http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.php?topic=29478

except, of course, where it related to social class!

Well, I've read a couple of Edith Wharton books lately - The Custom of the Country and Summer - and she's always good for a social class discussion, so I thought I'd talk about a little about that.

There are three classes that I saw represented in Summer. The protagonist, Charity, lives in a rather poor New England town. She is a class below the rest of the town because she was born on the Mountain, a place where all sorts of criminals live. She was taken in as a baby by 'lawyer Royall', who is an interesting class figure in and of himself - because of his profession he's seen as perhaps a cut above the rest of the town; he has the skills to make good somewhere else, and so the potential for upward social mobility. One of his great moments in the book is making a speech to the rest of the town about the importance of sticking around 'for good', of concentrating on the good you can do in your own home rather than running off and up the second you have a chance to. I think that this is an interesting counterpoint to Wharton's usual scheming social climbers, although he is by no means a saintly character. His romantic interest in Charity, although I found it really creepy at first, is an interesting social counterpart to her main romantic interest, Lucius Harney.

Lucius Harney, a high class man who spends the summer in Charity's town. The basic plot of the book is their romance, and I found it interesting that they pretty much jumped the entire middle class. In fact, one of the things that Lucius finds attractive about Charity is her class - he mentions that he likes that she's from the Mountain. Of course, this is all a bit confused since the Mountain is also associated with sexuality. Still, I imagine there can be some cross-over; maybe he finds her more free due to her lower class, whereas his own home might be a bit constraining. Charity is simultaneously proud of her Mountain heritage and ashamed of it. This, again, could be a sexuality issue, but might also work on a social class level - she's proud of being different, but still ashamed that the difference is 'charity case' of the town.

The Custom of the Country follows Undine, the most vicious social climber you could hope (or hope not) to meet. She goes from man to higher-class man, completely heedless of who she might hurt as she does so. Her ascent seems to indicate that money and beauty can trump social barriers. The book also showed a difference between American 'nobility' and the aristocracy of Europe, implying that the American sort are much more concerned with money while the Europeans are interested in their past. For instance, Undine's European husband is aghast at Undine's suggestion that they sell some of the house heirlooms for cash.

I think that Undine and Lawyer Royall are an interesting contrast to each other. I wouldn't consider either of them to be really happy characters, so I don't know if you can make any sort of inference about which way is better. Still, they were interesting books to read together.

I'm sorry that I've written so much, and thank you to anyone who bothered to read the whole thing!

(Edited to fix the touchstone)

That was great! thanks, I enjoyed your notes (and I got to revisit Summer!)

I enjoyed it too,thanks

I really enjoyed it too, thanks!
:-))

"Custom of the Country" sounds like a great comparison read with Henry James' "The American" (touchstone not working). A wealthy American businessman courts an impoverished French noblewoman. The money vs. blood as the basis for social class comes up frequently there.

Thank you, nohrt4me, The American sounds interesting, I'll put it on my 'to read' list! And I'm glad that people enjoyed my comments on Summer and Custom of the Country; they're good books, and I had a lot of fun writing about them :-)

#71 & 72 Both Wharton and James have written a number of books on the American v. British class issue:

The Buccaneers
The Age of Innocence
The Wings of a Dove
The Golden Bowl
The Portrait of a Lady

(Just to name a few . . . )

>67 legxleg: I read both Summer and Custom of the Country last year, when I was on a little bit of a Warton kick. And I for one loved reading your not-too-long-at-all take on them

I figured that a book I have to read for my Victorian Lit class would probably qualify for this theme read, and I now know enough about it to see that it does. So I'll be reading and commenting on Lady Audley's Secret, by Mary Elizabeth Braddon. This one relates to social class on two levels, as it is an issue in both the story and in the author's life. I'd never heard of Mary Elizabeth Braddon before this course, but apparently she wrote 80 novels and was sort of the Jackie Collins of the 19th century (in other words, scorned by "serious" readers but popular with the masses). It looks like a fun read.

Nickelini, Lady Audley's Secret IS quite entertaining!
:-))

I have been reading Barbara Pym's Jane and Prudence (inspired by the number of fans she has on LT). It's set within a narrow stratum of society, but even so it's presented almost as a minefield of etiquette and fine distinctions of class. Perhaps interestingly for this thread, it is also presented as something that women are concerned with - along with a whole range of other issues, like remembering what men like to eat - and men sail through the world oblivious to it all.

I read Reading Lolita in Tehran, does that count for social class catagory? I would like to discuss the question what made those women read that book and other banned "classics."

I just finished Wide Sargasso Sea, which I thought was a fascinating look at a number of divisions - class, race, gender, location, etc. While I guess I would say that the primary division that gets addressed is the one of race/location (i.e., the colonies or Britain), there are some interesting issues of class that get raised. I'll try to avoid spoilers, although its hard to "spoil" this book, especially if you've read Jane Eyre, to which this is a prequel.

Perceptions of class differences in this book are very much influenced by perceptions of racial divisions but they map on top of each other in interesting ways - hence the two ideas of "white nigger" (apologies for my use of a racial epithet, but its taken directly from the book) and "black Englishman". "White niggers" - i.e., white colonists who have been in the West Indies for a long time but have lost their economic and therefore their racial privileges - are looked down upon by both the black inhabitants of the West Indies and white Englishmen fresh off the boat, like Edward Rochester. Someone comments that its better to be a "black nigger" than to be a "white nigger," which is what Antoinette (Bertha) becomes when her family loses a great deal of their money and power. Perhaps this suggests that WNs, because they have lost the economic privileges formerly associated with whiteness, have lost an essential part of their identity and have nothing to fall back on, while BNs, who have never had economic power but are slowly gaining some rights after their emancipation, are gaining additional dimensions of identity. Not so sure about the term "Black Englishman" - I looked at it as mostly a non-racial insult ("black" meaning "evil", which I guess is arguably racially tinged, but now I feel like I'm getting bogged down here), since its mostly applied to Rochester, who is in no way identified with the African population of the West Indies.

Class also maps onto race in other ways, like the fact that Antoinette has property rights when she exists under a "black" colonial system, but once she marries into a "white" English system, she is under English common law and all her property becomes her husband's. Although she gains some standing by marrying a respectable authentic Englishman, she loses her independent economic power and is vulnerable to Rochester's whims and beliefs.

Class also maps onto culture & location in this book - even though they are both "white", Rochester feels superior to Antoinette because his culture is "pure" English and he has not yet been tainted by the tropics (apparently there was a very real belief amongst the British that living in the tropics physically changed people, made them lazy and prone to tempers, passions, insanity, etc.). Rochester also feels superior because he holds himself completely aloof from the blacks of the West Indies, refusing to partake in aspects of their culture or belief system (even though he does later fall prey to it, despite his enlightened disbelief in voodoo). He distrusts and is disgusted by Antoinette's physical closeness to the blacks of the West Indies, wondering why she kisses her old nanny; his disgust at discovering that she has some black and half-black relatives only heightens his feelings of superiority over her. Even though she is white (despite Rochester's fears of miscegenation in her bloodline), her position as a woman in a colonial setting makes her of lower social class, despite the ironic fact that he marries her solely due to his family's need to provide an income for the unfortunate second son.

I hope I've focused mostly on class issues in this topic. This book was really complex in terms of its layering of identities and power relations - its really hard to say that its about "class" or "race" or any one specific thing. Really, I feel that its about two people separated by such a wide gulf and shaped by such different cultural ideals that the possibility of understanding is almost non-existent.

great piece, fanny!

That was really interesting, fannyprice, thank you for writing it. I'll have to put Wild Sargasso Sea on my to-read list!

Thank you Fannyprice - very interesting especially as it is sitting in my bookcase calling me. Your thoughts have pushed it higher on the tbr list - thank you.

I also enjoyed reading your review. It does seem to me that the book focuses more on race then econmics, but I am very interested in the bringing out the laws making the wife's property part of the husbands. I wondered how much that was discussed. Was it just in passing or in detail?

I never knew any of that stuff about the Brits in the Carib. Fascinating!

Interesting, what I carried with me from the book, having read it ages ago, was more about how women with mental illness were treated in the 19th century. Maybe I am due for a reread. . .

Thanks all - Goad you enjoyed the comments.

>81 legxleg:, legxleg - Just to clarify, so that you can find the book - its called "Wide Sargasso Sea"

>83 yareader2:, yareader - The book definitely focuses more on race/gender/culture than economics, so maybe its an attempt to shoehorn it into this category, but I think it works ok. The transfer of property from a woman to her husband upon marriage was standard under English law until the passage of the Married Women's Property Act of 1882. In the novel, Antoinette explains the law and its effect on her independence to Christophine in broad strokes but doesn't get into the details of the laws. Her loss of economic independence is one reason (among many) that Antoinette doesn't feel she can leave Rochester. Later in the book, she is so desperate that she tells him that he can have everything of hers uncontested if he will just release her.

>85 avaland:, avaland - I think the book is definitely about how women with mental illness were treated in the 19th century, but I also think its about how perceptions of mental illness were shaped by cultural, locational, gender, and racial differences. Antoinette may actually have some existing predisposition to mental illness or some underlying instability, but these tendencies are exacerbated by the fact that she and Rochester are so different that they really cannot understand each other. And by his abuse of her - she might be a little crazy - he destroys her, in my opinion.

Also, I think Rochester takes advantage of the ease with which a woman like Antoinette can be stigmatized as "crazy" to dispose of her. She was a powerless, property-less West Indies woman (that she was also English, in some sense, really doesn't protect her once she's tainted by the colonies and her contacts with the blacks of the West Indies) with no family to protect her and lots of people spreading half-truths about her. She was inconvenient & easy to marginalize. If he says she's crazy, there are very few people who will defend her. Only Christophine, a former slave and voodoo woman, stands up for Antoinette - and what weight does her word carry in the larger power structure? Once Antoinette is removed to England, she loses even that.

Thanks for all the feedback, folks. Its nice to get a response when I post these rambling diatribes about literature. Since finishing grad school, I often feel a need to exercise my brain. LT provides a nice outlet, but you all suffer. :)

It makes me think back to the change in the balance of power when Jane Eyre comes into money and Rochester is blind and has reduced circumstances. It also happens in Gaskell's North & South when Margaret (who is of a higher social class but has little money) comes into money and Mr. Thornton's mill is closing down and he (who is a self-made industrialist) is need of some capital. Of course, it's a bit more complex than that, but you probably catch my drift.

>87 avaland:, avaland - Good point, I hadn't thought of that about Jane coming into money, etc. Your post also really reminds me that I need to read me some Elizabeth Gaskell and soon! She keeps coming up in reference to so many things!

>88 fannyprice: Gaskell has been kind of 'hot' particularly since the adaptation of North & South aired, but I thought some (non-English majors) discovered her after the earlier 'Wives and Daughters" adaptation (from the bookstore perspective). The adaptation of Cranford has been aired in the UK and is scheduled to air in the US in May. You might be amused by North & South because it does play on the pride & prejudice theme a bit:-)

apologies for the digression, off topic.

#89> avaland, I am watching 'Wives and Daughters' right now and LOVE it! What an excellent production and fabulous performances!
I must say that nobody can recreate the atmosphere of books such as this as the BBC does.

Although Mary Elizabeth Braddon was one of the top-selling authors of the 19th century, outside of English departments, few readers today are familiar with her. Her best-known novel, Lady Audley’s Secret, was a smash hit in the 1860s. It is a mystery about a young lawyer who has some suspicions about his aristocratic uncle’s new young wife, the Lady Audley of the title. While not written with the literary finesse of more familiar 19th century novelists, such as Jane Austen, Charles Dickens and the Brontes, Lady Audley’s Secret is still a worthwhile and fun read. Robert Audley takes the reader along on his investigation, and it’s soon apparent that Lady Audley has more than one secret. There are twists and turns right to the end—some that are predictable, but some are not.

Lady Audley’s Secret fits the social class theme on two levels. First, being a 19th century British novel, it’s not a surprise that class issues are part of the story. Lady Audley’s roots are less than auspicious, but through her beauty and charm, she raises herself to join the noble class. Interestingly, none of the upper class seem to be particularly concerned with this and are quite welcoming to the new Lady Audley. However, throughout the novel the upper class characters are virtuous and for the most part well-behaved (though sometimes mistaken), while the lower classes are mainly deceitful liars, drunkards and the insane. No wonder Lady Audley tried to escape their realm (I’d say more here, but must avoid spoilers).

This novel also fits the social class category because of the author herself dealt with class prejudice. M E Braddon was a middle class woman who needed to make a living, and did so through writing 85 books in her career. This did not sit well with the literary critics, who thought that high volume equalled low quality. Lady Audley’s Secret, and other of her bestselling books, was considered “sensation novels” (a genre headed by the more familiar Wilkie Collins’s The Woman in White). These stories appealed to the nervous system, and hence the body, and not the mind. Many esteemed authors, including Dickens and Henry James spoke publicly in defense of Braddon’s writing, but she was scorned by the literati, and although Lady Audley’s Secret has stayed in print these 150 years, she does not share enduring popularity with other, more “literary” writers of her era.

Note: This novel would also work well for the beauty theme. At the time it was published, many people thought that one’s character was reflected in his or her physical appearance. For example, if a man is a criminal, you should be able to tell by his ugly appearance. Lady Audley’s Secret was a radical departure from this phrenological approach, as she is a perfect beauty who lacks perfect character.

>91 Nickelini:, thanks Nickelini - I've wanted to read this book for a while now!

great review, Nickelini!

I thought an interesting book to read for this might be Jessica Mitford's memoir of her childhood and early adulthood, Hons and Rebels. For those who don't know, Jessica Mitford was one of a somewhat notorious group of aristocratic sisters.

The book's portrayal of class can be divided into two halves - Mitford's early life, and her growing political awareness in early adulthood.

The Mitfords were born into traditional privilege, a world of nannies and debutantes. Early on Mitford writes "only once was a red {Labour Party} rosette seen in the village. It was worn by our gamekeeper's son". I thought this was a very telling line - not just about the political environment, but the social deference which they were used to.

Class was something which was unspoken, but vitally important. Mitford's mother won't let her invite schoolfriends for tea, because she would never be able to go to their houses in return - "you see, I don't know any of their mothers". But when the young Decca (Jessica's nickname) presses her mother for an explanation, she only receives "a cold, grim anger ... like that caused by making jokes about God or talking about sex." Where twenty years previously, the aristocracy would have had no compunction in explaining why the girls couldn't be friends, in 1931 the social hierarchies were beginning to slip away (as you can see from the fact that they were at a school where she didn't know the other girls' mothers, I suppose).

As Decca grows up, she embraces first pacifist and then socialist values, rather bewildering her family. Nancy flirts with the radicalism which was briefly fashionable among their set, but purely for social effect - when Decca asks her why she won't campaign for the labour movement, she replies "think of the dreadful boredom", while their mother is quoted as indignantly saying, "I'm not an enemy of the working class! I think some of them are perfectly sweet!"

As a young adult, Decca runs away (briefly) to the Spanish Civil War, and then returns to a bohemian life in East London and a wide-eyed tour of the USA. Her radicalism (and her husband Esmond's) are sincere, but naive - they are both pretty impractical, showing up their privileged upbringing ("no-one had ever explained to me that you had to pay for electricity"). At one point, Decca explains that they preferred to go to meetings of the working class Bermondsey Labour Party, rather than those of central London Communists with social and educational backgrounds more like their own, admiring the dockers' "seriousness of purpose and down-to-earth understanding of issues." Sadly, the Bermondsey dockers' opinions of Decca and Esmond have not come down to us...

Despite that, it's difficult to dislike this book, or Decca herself - her enthusiasm, wit, and self-mockery make her an engaging companion. And she is well aware that it was their backgrounds that made them what they are: towards the end, she acknowledges that "our style of behaviour ... {Esmond's} carefree intransigence, even his supreme self-confidence ... are not hard to trace to our English upper-class ancestry and upbringing".

One other thing about class - reading this did make me wonder why there is still such an interest in the Mitford sisters. OK, I chose to read the book, but this was partly because they are still part of our cultural life - new books about them seem to be reviewed regularly in the Sunday supps. To a certain extent, it's the shocking appeal of transgressive women, but what makes them transgressive if it's not their social class? This was the fascination at the time - at one point her mother comments sadly, "Whenever I see the words "Peer's Daughter" in a headline, I know it's going to be about one of you children" - but why still now?

Great writeup wandering_star and very interesting. I don't have an answer for you but perhaps some of your fellow UK readers will care to speculate.

wandering_star, thanks so much for that!

Over Here, of course, Mitford is famous for "The American Way of Death," her expose about the American funeral industry, which I read a couple of decades ago when I was a reporter covering changing funeral trends. I was amazed at the way some funeral directors were still using the language and tactics that Mitford had described!

I think part of the appeal of Mitford's style is that she's like Bertie Wooster with a first-class brain.

I know this is an older thread but having just come across your group I was having a browse. I've picked up one or two ideas for further reading from here and have read a few of the ones discussed. An enjoyable browse.

no thread is ever dead around here:-) welcome!

Thank you avaland. I've recommended this group to a lot of friends today after discovering it.