New Touchstones? Try it out.

Following on "New work search? Try it out." (See https://www.librarything.com/topic/258231) I have updated the touchstone system with the new search system. Although the new system is still in beta "testing" mode overall, the touchstone system isn't amenable to that split, so it's a straight switch.

I believe that existing touchstones won't change, even if you edit. But new ones will. A classic example of it working better is Huckleberry Finn now goes to The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn not to Pride and Prejudice (aww!).

Let me know what you think.

Now that I'm in the code, I can discuss other options. It would be possible, I think, to take your own catalog into consideration--that is, to bump up a work from, say, #2 or #5 to #1 (the primary touchstone) if it was in your catalog. But there are perils here too. If you have a good example of when it should do that, let me know, and I'll play with it.

Just copying this over from the work search thread:

I know just the book to try: The Children by David Halberstam. Which did not come up as the default, but another book with the identical title did, so no complaints there. And the Halberstam book is in the Others list, so no complaints there.

This touchstone had been coming up as Harry Potter for months (probably longer but I only tried to touchstone it for the first time last November) and the Others list was filled with various Harry Potter permutations, so this new search result is a BIG BIG victory in this case at least!

I think bumping books in my catalogue is a good idea for identically-named works, but I don't think it should bump a partial hit above a full one.

Boy

Wow! This is great!

>4 norabelle414:

What was Boy doing before?

Ah. Harry Potter. Ow.

>6 timspalding: "This boy will be famous. There won't be a child in our world who doesn't know his name."

The Boy Who Monopolized All the Touchstones

Thanks for striking a blow for the muggles, Tim.

The Girls -- first two matches are exact matches for the title, second one is the one I was looking for. Used to default to Pride and Prejudice, and the Emma Cline book was way down the list.

The Three -- I couldn't even get this one to come up in the list before, now it is number six on the list, and everything before it makes sense.

So far, I'm very happy.

Wheeeeeeeee! Loving the touchstone fix! I haven't been able to fool it yet. Did you set it to be user catalog specific? Because even with titles I know there are duplicate names of, only the one in my catalog comes up, then there is the option of "others." I like it.

>11 sturlington:

Blech. I think the work entitled "The Three" should come up first. https://www.librarything.com/search.php?search=The+Three&searchtype=newwork_...

Much, much better! Thank you!

>13 timspalding: Well, that would be great. :-)

green Well, definitely better in that it is actually getting words that match the selection...

King, and Queen, and Child all seem to spontaneously link to a) the intended work, or b) titles that make sense, with the intended work just a few items down the line.

I've tried the new touchstones on a number of the titles that were way off (in the RSI thread), and the results were all exemplary. Well done indeed!

Thank you so much. The examples I had been giving before both work now.

Good job! Thanks, Tim.

So I think all the various problems, like too-quickly adding brackets, and editing before and after you post and so forth, are all fixed.

Find me a bug, I'll give you a prize! :)

See http://www.librarything.com/topic/258840

I can't check it, because they work for me, but Lilithcat and Lorannen say touchstones don't work on some iPads.

I'm not sure if this is the same category of bug, but when I click "other" for an author touchstone I see ALL variations of the author name, even ones that are combined. e.g.:

>20 timspalding:, 21

Right. I am on an iPad Pro, OS 10.1.1, and I touchstones don't work for me.

>23 lilithcat: I can confirm that touchstones don't work for me, either. I have an ancient iPad 2 but running 10.1.1 as well.

Works for me, but I haven't moved to iOS 10. Using Safari. (Maybe I should be glad I'm short of storage space.)

I have something strange happening. In this thread - https://www.librarything.com/topic/250153 - the touchstone in message 194 is not working, but it is working in message 12. It's formatted exactly the same. In fact, I copied it from the top message to the bottom one.

>26 thornton37814: Actually, it looks like you forgot the square brackets when you copied the touchstone...

>27 gilroy: Yeah, that makes sense. When you copy a post you lose all the formatting, including the brackets around touchstones.

Was it working on the iPad before?

>29 timspalding: My ancient iPad is so slow that I rarely use it, so I can't remember if they were working before, I'm afraid. And I need to correct what I wrote earlier: I am actually running iOS 9.3.5 on this dinosaur.

(But I've got a brand-new iPad Pro 10.5" winging its way to me as I type, so I hope to soon be able to report whether they work on newer hardware. Though I suspect that functionality is much more tied to the iOS version?)

>29 timspalding:

Honestly, I don't recall.

>30 rosalita:

I am not sure I'll be able to test on an iPad soon. Does it not load the touchstones, or what?

>26 thornton37814:, >27 gilroy: If you go into "Edit post" and then copy, you get the formatting. If you just copy from the completed posted message, you don't.

>32 timspalding: Just for you I've fired up the old dinosaur to see exactly what happens. If I try to put touchstones for The Sparrow ... Well, sonofagun, it worked! Maybe it was the iPhone where it didn't work? Testing ...

Nope, it works on an iPhone SE running the most recent iOS, 10.3.2. My best guess is that it wasn't working on an earlier version of iOS 10, but has now been fixed as of 10.3.2. Hopefully lillthcat can shed some light.

Okay, on my iPhone SE, which is 10.0.2, touchstones are fine.

On the iPad, nothing happens at all. I'll type in the title or author, and there's nothing.

The Handmaid's Tale first result is York Notes Advanced. The correct exact match is 25th in the list. (See this bug for a possible reason).

Jane Eyre first result is the Norton Critical Edition. None of the (others) appears to be the main work.

>36 r.orrison:
>37 r.orrison:

Ah. Fixed. Yes, combining could--in certain circumstances--nix the scores. Basically, you only got the scores for the minor work combined into the major one.

the handmaid's tale is now working as expected. As is Jane Eyre.

Thanks - new search is awesome!

I tried a bunch of things I remember having trouble with before, so far almost everything - even Don Quixote - has come up with the one I'm looking for either as default or near the top of the "others".

Only problem case so far is Gedichte 1950 - 2015, which doesn't find work 15540024 in the list of alternative touchstones - are you deprecating numerals in titles? But Selected poems and the like are never going to work well, anyway.

ETA: it looks as though there might be a problem with combination and/or ISBN re-use for Enzensberger, probably not a real touchstone issue.

>40 thorold: I would expect that one to have trouble. Look at the editions. All the same ISBN, but two have no years listed, and the other two do match each other or the years you list.

>35 lilithcat:

Shot in the dark here, but have you tried using backspace to delete something else in the message? For whatever reason, that's necessary to trigger the touchstone on one of my machines (running FF).

>41 MarthaJeanne:
Yes. Not worth pursuing. One day someone with an intimate knowledge of HME bibliography should do some combination and separation there, but it's not a touchstone problem. If he's really updated the Selected Poems every 5 years since 1970, it will take some disentangling.

>42 AndreasJ: I had the iPad problem a few times two or three months ago, (but not repeatably, so I assumed it was a server problem) and found that backspace didn't help but Post and Edit did.

Ignore this. I am testing something.

David Copperfield

>44 thorold:

Yep, that worked. Weird.

Nevertheless, shouldn't be necessary.

I'm not understanding the iPad backspace issue.

>46 timspalding:

I tried the backspace workaround mentioned in >42 AndreasJ:. It did not work for me. However, >44 thorold:'s "post and edit" idea did work.

>46 timspalding:

The "backspace issue" is that if I type in a touchstone in Safari, it starts looking for a matching book immediately, but if I use Firefox, I have to hit backspace for it to start looking. Somehow the system doesn't recognize that I've typed a touchstone until I hit backspace.

(As lilithcat notes, nothing to do with iPad.)

>48 AndreasJ: (et al.)
Same for me on desktop and laptop with whatever the latest version of Chrome is. It has been that way for a long time. Years? On rare occasions the system starts looking for touchstones as soon as I start typing between two square brackets (or even typing after just the opening bracket), but normally I have to hit backspace (i.e. include an extra space and then press backspace) to trigger the system into searching for a touchstone.

(What I mean by "starts looking for touchstones" is that the loading circle next to the comment field starts revolving.)

>48 AndreasJ:

If you type "\", then "Huckleberry Finn", then "\" in a new message, it doesn't search?

>49 Petroglyph:

Do you mean you type the brackets and then fill them in later?!

Do you mean you type the brackets and then fill them in later?!

Not to derail from the main topic, but I often do that on my phone or tablet because I have to switch keyboards twice to get the square brackets (tap to switch to numeric keyboard, tap again to switch to symbols keyboard). It's easier to type both of them while I'm there, and then go back and fill them in from the ABC keyboard. But it doesn't affect whether the touchstone shows up for me on those devices.

>50 timspalding: Do you mean you type the brackets and then fill them in later?!

Yes, yes I do. Is that weird? Is touchstone searching triggered by typing the second bracket?

(I do the same thing to html tags, and curly brackets. Those three require AltGr action on the keyboard layouts I typically work with. Regular brackets I can get at straight away or using shift, so I typically type those sequentially.)

I need to try this.

Huckleberry Finn

If I type "", then "Huckleberry Finn", then "", it doesn't search until, somewhere in the message, anywhere, I use the backspace. (I'm on a desktop right now, running windows 7 and the latest version of Chrome (Version 58.0.3029.110 (64-bit)).)

Sense and Sensibility, typing the brackets first and then filling them in, does not turn into a touchstone. Not unless I use the backspace when typing material after it (like I did just now) or in front of it. (I waited 20 seconds between completing the touchstone and then continuing to type.)

Wuthering heights (same procedure) won't turn into a touchstone, regardless of how long I wait after typing it. (60 seconds this time). It's definitely using the backspace that triggers the search for a touchstone.

Lord Jim, typed entirely sequentially. Nope, doesn't turn into a touchstone. It does search immediately upon using the delete key, though.

The Eyre Affair (typed entirely sequentially), won't turn into a touchstone. Not while I wait. Not until I hit the backspace.

I tried entering touchstones earlier in this post, and search kicks into gear for all of the not-yet-a-touchstone ones upon using either delete or backspace anywhere in the message.

For me, using FireFox, typing the closing bracket is what triggers the search. However, if I start by typing the brackets and the fill it in, it doesn't search unless I add an extra space at the end and backspace over it.

ETA: I get the same behavior on Chrome.

I get nothing.....





(I realized after I took these screen grabs that there is no "The" but that didn't fix it.

ETA: It works outside the bold formatting though....

In a different thread (https://www.librarything.com/topic/258935) it was reported that touchstones inside a bold tag don't work, but that adding a space between the tag and the touchstone fixes it.

>55 jjwilson61: Naturally, the only thing I didn't try. Thanks! Works nicely.

Happy to report that the touchstone for Thrice the Brinded Cat Hath Mew'd now actually returns a result where it didn't before. It automatically went to one by Robertson Davies when I wanted the one by Alan Bradley, but I think the one references the other so who can complain about that?

Okay, I'm going to need to try out stuff from above, but, basically, I changed things again and it should (probably) work.

>50 timspalding: If you type "", then "Huckleberry Finn", then "" in a new message, it doesn't search?

Correct (on FF; on Safari it does). It's been like this for quite some time - since long before the new search - but once it did work on FF too.

FWIW, if I copy a touchstone into a new post it searches immediately.

Also FWIW, it doesn't matter if the post is new or not, it works the same if I edit a post and add a touchstone.

>58 timspalding:

Whatever things you changed make no discernible difference on my end; still have to hit backspace.

Okay, so you can't type a touchstone, you always have to type and then backspace?

Is this true for others on other browsers?

And by backspace, you mean delete--that is, not a cursor move to the left, but the deletion of something? And of the bracket, which you then re-type?

>60 timspalding: I don't have to do this on Safari when I just type the touchstone. I used to have delete and retype the final bracket if I edited the touchstone, but recently that has usually not been necessary.

>60 timspalding:, >61 timspalding:

I can't simply type a touchstone and have it work, no.

By backspace I mean deleting something with the backspace key. I normally type out the touchstone, then type space-backspace. However, I just found that deleting something with the delete key (the one that deletes to the right) also works, so it appears to be tied to the action of deletion, not the backspace key as such. Moving about the cursor does nothing as far as touchstones are concerned.

Deleting the closing bracket does not work. You have to type the entire touchstone, then delete something other than the brackets (deleting text inside the touchstone works).

>61 timspalding: Backspace and Delete (i.e. delete-left and delete-right) both work, but cursor movement doesn't. If you use backspace, you have to type a sacrificial character after the right square bracket - deleting the bracket doesn't initiate the search (FF, Windows).

Okay, so you can type "\Huckleberry Finn\ dog" and then delete the g on "dog" and it works?

(Clearly I need Firefox on my away-Mac.)

>65 timspalding:

Yes, that works.

Furthermore, >64 thorold: just made me realize that simply hitting Delete after completing the touchstone works, despite there not being anything to delete since the cursor is at the end of the post. So I guess that's my new workaround until this is fixed.

Huckleberry Finn do

Just trying it on IE11 on the same Windows machine - I see the same behaviour as FF.

I have always thought this was the way it is supposed to work (and yes, I have always used FF on both my PC and my Mac). After you finish writing the post, you type a space and then delete it to make the touchstones kick in.

I'm sorry, no bugs to report.

Only wanted to say what a pleasure it was this morning to make a long list of touchstone titles in a post with nary a one going awry! Not even books I had in my own catalog, still pulled up the correct ones. Thank you!

I have a question about touchstones that isn't related to the new search mechanism, which is still working great for me.

Today, I used a touchstone for The Girl on the Train by Paula Hawkins, and the default touchstone is for that title by Paul A. Hawkins — obviously someone has miscatalogued it. But nowhere in the Others list is the correct title with the correct author, and when I click on the touchstone that's created it goes to the right work, where the author's name is displayed correctly as Paula Hawkins.

So, my question is: Is there any way to suppress those sorts of wrong authors from bubbling up into the touchstones? I don't really understand how the author system works, or how to tell how many copies in LT are actually catalogued under the wrong name.

>71 rosalita:

No, that's not a miscataloguing.
The problem is that both "Paula" and "Paul A." Appear as "hawkinspaula". Look at the URL on the author page.

>71 rosalita: The problem is the way author URLs are saved. The author code for both Paul A Hawkins and Paula Hawkins is hawkinspaula. This is related to http://www.librarything.com/topic/258879.

>72 lilithcat: >73 MarthaJeanne: Ah! Now that's the last explanation I would have expected but I understand your explanation. Is there no way for the system to make the distinction, though? For example, when I click on the author name Paula Hawkins in my copy of The Girl on the Train, and it says quite properly that I have 2 books and 2 works by this author. But if I click on the disambiguation page, it says I have 2 books and two works by Paul A. Hawkins (2) and Paula Hawkins.

Complicating matters further, one of the other books listed under Paul A. Hawkins (2) and Paula Hawkins is One Minute to Midnight by Amy Silver. Is that a pseudonym for either Paul A. Hawkins (2) or Paula Hawkins? Is there place I could be looking on the author pages to figure this out? I checked the disambiguation notice for Amy Silver but all it says is that her works have been aliased into Paul A. Hawkins.

I apologize if these are rudimentary questions that I should know the answer to, and this probably isn't the thread to dive into all of this since we've stopped talking about touchstones, but I'm just trying to understand how LT works and why it makes the choices it does. If there's a thread or a group where this question would be better posed, please feel free to just direct me there.

>74 rosalita: According to this LA Times article, "Amy Silver" is a pseudonym of Paula Hawkins, author of "The Girl on the Train"

http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-ca-jc-paula-hawkins-20170426-htmlstor...