Arthurian Legends Message Board

Not a single shared bit of Authuriana popped up yet. Maybe we should be discussing superman or brumby books instead!

The version I think of as the real legends are probably the kids stories I had King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, just because I read them first. The Arthur novels I like best by Rosemary Sutcliff, Sword at Sunset, and Mary Stewart's Merlin novels The Crystal Cave The Hollow Hills The Last Enchantment The Wicked Day (though that one is really a Mordred novel), which are I guess more 'realistic?' tellings, with some reference to what the place and people and kingdoms might have been like at the time if Arthur had existed by whichever name, though both inlcude some magic and much drama.

I also like books that refer to the Arthur legends but don't try to retell them, some juvenile fantasy authors are good at this, like Susan Cooper.

Has anyone here read Jo Walton's King's Name and King's Peace which are sort of an alternative universe Authurian story (I'm not explaining that well, but they are a very interesting read).

I don't know the source texts, the early versions of the tales, so well, I'm sure some people here will. And I know there are a lot of recent retellings and reimaginings I also haven't read. What do people recommend?

The tag I use is 'authurian'

I'm very fond of a subset of Arthuriana that might be called Merliniana (or possibly Myrddiniana). Oddly, I seem to have lost? sold? many of the books I had in this category, such as The Quest for Merlin by Nikolai Tolstoy. Memo to self: must reacquire...

Now then, I'm trying to recall the title of a particular book, and am having trouble. It was a collection of short stories by a variety of fantasy writers, each interpreting a different facet of the Arthurian story. Very enjoyable, but for the life of me I can't remember who contributed or edited - Jane Yolen possibly? The book ended with a short story in which the heir apparent to the British throne (presumably Prince Charles) opens some sort of casket that was believed to have been bequeathed to the throneholder by Arthur himself...

Ooh, I just tracked down my mystery book. It's Merlin's Booke by Jane Yolen (ed.), published back in 1986.

(No wonder I was so fond of it - more Merlinian than Arthurian! ;-)

Just came across an online interview with Yolen on the subject of her Arthurian reimaginings. Here, you might enjoy it:
Interview with Jane Yolen by Raymond H. Thompson

ooh, thanks for the link. The short stories sound interesting. Arthur is one of Charlie's names isn't it? Or is it one of William's?

I've read Evian Steel. Not sure what in, but something I've reread. Was it in Imaginary Lands? (ha! yes, google says I'm right)

> Arthur is one of Charlie's names isn't it? Or is it one of William's?

Both. The father is Charles Philip Arthur George Mountbatten-Windsor and the son is William Arthur Philip Louis Mountbatten-Windsor.

(Not that I'm a monarchist by any means... but Wikipedia is my friend :-)

Maybe it's all the archaeology classes, but I'm a fan of the re-workings that get the setting more *real*. You know, earthen work forts over bright sparkling castles. But really, if it's about Arthur, I'll read it one way or the other. I also like the one's that bring Arthur into a new setting, absolutely love the Forever King books-what's not to like about the Knights reforming as a motorcycle gang in the 20th century.

As far as source texts, again maybe it's just too many classes (this time english lit.) but I'm bigger fan of the Tristan/Isolde (Iseult) legends than the Gawain & Green knight poems, being forced to read that one more often. Planing on going back and re-reading that one of my own free will in the event of possible enjoyment, just need to get around to it.

Just a note, searching for Arthur or King Arthur won't bring this group up in the groups search. Maybe the description could be changed so it does show up?

Thanks, Aquila!

I don't know if I can really join this group as I've only ever read The Mists of Avalon and Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy (not The Wicked Day yet. But I have a lot of Arthurian books on my shelves that I plan to get to ... eventually ;-) I am excited to hear that Sword at Sunset is good, as I have that one. I also have Gillian Bradshaw's trilogy, the first three books in Jack Whyte's series, and the first in Bernard Cornwell's trilogy on Arthur. I just haven't gotten around to reading any of these yet! I do plan to, at some point, but I just haven't been in an Arthur mood quite yet. Any ideas on which should be the first on my list, though, once I do get in the mood?

nikolai tolstoy actually wrote more than one book? Interesting. I only ever saw one.

nikolai tolstoy actually wrote more than one book? Interesting. I only ever saw one.

Several books, actually, although only two of them have to do with the Arthurian/Merlin legend AFAIK.

Non-fiction: The Quest for Merlin
Fiction: The Coming of the King

My husband saw Nikolai Tolstoy at a train station in northern England a few years back, and plucked up the courage to go and tell him how much he'd enjoyed The Coming of the King (whose proper title is The coming of the King : the first book of Merlin. Tolstoy said that he was working on a sequel - presumably the second book of Merlin. Obviously nothing has come out to date, and I haven't heard whether he's since abandoned this project, or if it's simply taking a great deal of time. (Sigh. Those of us who are fans of John Crowley's Aegypt tetralogy are very used to waiting... ;-)

Right, that was what I meant, sorry, more than one Arthur type book.

I did come across an Arthurian long type poem yesterday, Camlan, by Robert Buchanan

Can anyone recommend a good English edition of Wolfram?

Has anyone read The Once And Future King by T H White? I read it as a ten year old and loved it. The first book in the trilogy is The Sword In The Stone which Disney used. Definitely my favourite versions of the Arthur myth - his Merlin is beautifully drawn. The madness of Lancelot is particularly moving. The books led to a life-long love affair with the Arthurian myths, possibly why I adore The Wasteland so much.

I've got Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur which is a re-working of the French Romances (which I read many years ago). Geoffrey of Monmouth has an interesting passage about Merlin in his History of Britain. The early sources are definitely hard-going and very Christian in their imagery. Pagan aspects and a more sympathetic picture of Morgan le Fey seem to prevail in modern re-tellings, particularly The Mists Of Avalon. I'd recommend Glastonbury (Somerset) as a great place to visit for Arthurian literature (good bookshops) as it has many associations with the myths.

There is a wonderful series of books by Patricia Kennealy Morrison called the Keltiad. Its the Tales of King Arthur set on a planet called Keltia. And it is at war with other planets and it is an incredible blend of science fiction, fantasy and the Arthurian legend. It has all the pivotal characters of the Grail (Arthurian) legend including Arthur and Gweniver Pendreic, Merlynn Llwyd and even the Sidhe (the immortals)! Some of the books are The Throne of Scone, The Copper Crown, The Hawk's Gray Feather, The Oak Above the Kings

Sounds a bit in the vein of DC's Camelot 3000, which I would also recommend.

Did Andre Norton do something a bit like that, or am I imagining it?

4042Albert: Mountbatten-Windsor

Well, its not a comic book . . . more of an epic series like the Atlan series or the Cheysuli series (werewolf clan). The author has been remarkably faithful to Celtic concepts, folklore and spellings yet the sci fi element is pitched perfectly . . . even with the magic that exists in the books. And you're absolutely right, Andre Norton did have some "Arthurian" books. I just wish I could remember which ones they were.

Re: Andre Norton

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/Camelot/intrvws/norton.htm says Huon of the Horn, Steel Magic and Dragon Magic, and Merlin's Mirror and that Witch World itself was introduced using an Arthurian artefact.

4024Albert said: Charles or William who?

Aquila said: 4042Albert: Mountbatten-Windsor

And I add: also known as Prince Charles, the current heir to the British throne, and his son Prince William, who is second in line.

Sorry not to have been more specific. Those of us in the Commonwealth (not to mention all Brits!) would automatically know who "Charles and William" are, but I guess it's not universal ;-)

I was trying to be funny. A fatal flaw. Must try to give it up.
There is no place (or need) for humour on LT message boards.
This is Albert's Last Post.

Huh? People replied - and courteously, I might add - to what appeared to be an innocent question. (After all, these forums have participants from all over the world.)

I see no reason for you to get upset about it...

Personally I like Alice Borchardt's Guinevere Trilogy, of which only the first two are out (The Dragon Queen and The Raven Warrior). It may not be historically accurate, but it provides a new twist on the legends.

And no one has mentioned Parke Godwin??

"Firelord," "Beloved Exile," and "The Last Rainbow," although Rainbow is not Arthurian, but has family ties to Firelord.

I loved these three books. Firelord is about Arthur, Exile about Guenever, and Rainbow as I said. I think you'd either have to read them to understand or put up with a lengthy paragraph from me.

I am new to LT, and found this group (yea), and would like to suggest Jack Whyte. He is the author of the Camulod Chronicles. Jack Whyte tells the story of Arthur's ancestors who make Camulod/Camelot a reality. The series begins with The Skystone and will end the The Eagle (released in Canada, in the US in Jan or Feb). The series may lack the fantasy aspect of many Authurain legends, but Whyte's historical knowledge lends a new perspective to the time and need for one such as Authur.

I would also like to say thanks for some of the books I've seen recommended, I can't wait to start reading some of the books I've seen listed here.

To me the best Arthuriana was, is, and always will be the Once and Future King by T.H. White. I grew up with this, after a storybook version I can't seem to remember the title of.

I am surprised the name Stephen Lawhead has not come up on this list. He wrote a four (maybe five) volume set, starting wiith Taliesin, then Merlin, then Arthur, followed by The Grail and there was a final one about a modern day reincarnation of the Once and Future King Avalon.

Lawhead is a pelgian Christian, kind of an oddity in today's world, and his books have a definite "Christian" slant, but not so much it gets in the way of the story.

bonjour!
je suis passionnée par la littérature arthurienne, et je me demande si quelqu'un connait nancy mackenzie? elle a écrit plusieurs romans passionnants, notament autour de guenièvre, galaad et même tristan!

Hi durandal, never heard of her, sorry. Is she any good?

oui! j'ai commencé par le 1er tome de guenièvre, et j'ai fait une nuit blanche pour le terminer! celui là est écrit à la 1ère personne, on a vraiment l'impression d'être dans la peau du personnage. et puis guenièvre a une image beaucoup plus positive que chez marion zimmer bradley!!! je n'ai pas lu de romans de mary stewart mais nancy mackenzie dit en être fan!
son roman sur tristan s'appelle le prince des rêves en francais, et il donne un visage plus romancé et captivant du mythe de béroul.
quant au roman sur galaad, le prince du graal, c'est autre chose que la quête traditionnelle du graal chez les auteurs du moyen âge!

Ok.

I am not much of a fan of Bradley's stuff, but do like Stewart. It would be better if she was more that end. :)

Thanks.

je ne comprends pas tout, je suis francaise!
l'enchanteur de barjavel est assez original dans le genre arthurien...

Je suis australien, j'ai seulement fait des annees de Français dans le lycdée

or something like that, anyway :)

Like Stewart

Not like Bradley much

More like Stewart is good.

google should translate that ok I think

Many a moon ago I read a paperback titled "Lionors" which was a re-telling of Arthur's legend with a woman named Lionors as his first wife (actually "handfasted" in the old religion by Merlin). Lionors is called to serve Gwynever as a lady-in-waiting. Anyhow, in general, an interesting re-telling. I was wondering if anyone else ever read this one? I believe it was published in the late 1960's to mid 1970s. In response to Hera, I did read "The Once and Future King" and can recommend "The Arthurian Handbook" by Lacy & Ashe, which gives an interesting commentary of depictions of King Arthur in modern literature.

Lionors by Barbara Johnson? I have this book but I don't remember reading it...I think it was given to me and I kept it as Arthur interests me but never got around to actually reading it. Would you recommend it?

I liked it enough to read it twice... but this was around 20 years ago! I was very young, in my very early twenties. My tastes have changed, but I would daresay I'd enjoy it again as a romantic fantasy, a nice way or relaxing during down times. I also liked the idea of the first wife married to him according to the old religion and then the second (Gwinevere) according to the Christian church, it illustrates that transition from Druid religion to Christianity, old world to new world, etc. I would think, looking back, that it is a feminist re-telling, as well. I knew nothing of feminism then, so didn't catch on to that at the time.

Hi, I am still entering my books, so I have not browsed the complete list of groups yet and just came across this one today. Over in FantasyFans I recommended Knights of God by Richard Cooper in the thread Arthurian and other legends with modern day characters.

The book is a novelization of the British TV series, which was also written by Richard Cooper. I watched the series first, but I think the novel stands on it owns. Unfortunately it is out of print and may be hard to find. This is from the back cover of my copy of Knights of God:

The year is 2020. Great Britain has been devastated by civil war. Mass unemployment, riots, arson, murder, factories not working – in fact everything is at a standstill. North and South are utterly divided. London is completely destroyed, and Winchester is the new capital. Prior Mordrin, a ruthless dictator, rules, supported by his military élite, the Knights of God. Resistance is growing all the time. Seventeen-year-old Gervase, whose father Owen Edwards leads the resistance in Wales, is rounded up by the knights and sent to an Education and Re-Training Centre. There he meets another young rebel, Julia Clarke. Mordrin seeks out Gervase at the Centre. Why? What is so special about him? What bargain does Mordrin strike with Gervase so that Julia’s life may be spared?

There is more to the story, but I don't want to spoil it. As for the Arthurian legend, it is not a retelling, but is instead used to enhance the story and is, in my opinion, integral to it.

Anyone read The Sword and the Flame by Catherine Christian which seems to be the same book as Pendragon? (sorry, the touchstones won't find it but her author page works*) I noticed a copy available on the local swap site, and the Amazon reviews are fairly good. If I love Mary Stewart and Rosemary Sutcliff will I like it or feel like I've seen it before?

* And I note that Lawhead uses both those titles, too.

I really enjoyed the young adult retellings of the Arthurian legend by Nancy Springer - I am Mordred and I am Morgan Le Fay.

Also has anyone gotten through The Lost Years of Merlin series by T.A. Barron? I started it back in high school, but our library only had the first, which I remember enjoying a lot.

I have The Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights by John Steinbeck in my TBR shelf. I'm ashamed to say for how long. Is anyone familiar with this work? Did you enjoy it?

Long overdue response, but though I haven't read Steinbeck's retelling, be aware that it is incomplete.

Overdue question! How is it incomplete?

He intended to retell the whole legend with Malory as his basic source, but it was growing into something he had not intended it to be—less of a straight retelling and more of his own version of the story—and so he cut it off at the end of his Lancelot section, ending with a kiss the knight shares with Guinevere.

Has anyone read Mercedes Lackey's new retelling of the Arthurian legend Gwenhwyfar? I'm intrigued, but I would love to hear opinions from those who have read it.

Seconding that, Caramellunacy. I enjoy a lot of Lackey's work (particularly when I feel the need for something light and fun), but I haven't heard anything either way about Gwenhwyfar.

On topic, my favorite version will always be The Once and Future King. I also love Mary Stewart's books, the elements of Arthurian myth in Susan Cooper's YA books, and I have a soft spot for The Mists of Avalon even though it hasn't really aged well. In a course for my LIS degree, I read some of Gerald Morris's YA books (The Squire's Tale and so forth), and found them to be funny and well-written.

Also in the midst of plowing through Jack Whyte's Camulod Chronicles. So far I'm really impressed.

Oh, I really enjoy Gerald Morris. He has a good, humorous take on the Arthurian Legend. But as for classic stuff, I am forever beholden to Mary Stewart and T. H. White. Recently, I found out that Stewart wrote another book after The Wicked Day. Can anyone tell me about that? Also, I am excited about all the recommendations I got from here!

Are you referring to The Prince and the Pilgrim? It's a bizarre mixture of the Holy Grail story and some obscure little tale from Malory ("Alexander and someoneorother"). I never could get through it: the writing wasn't always up to her usual high standards, although in parts it was wonderful. If you read it, try to think of it as a romance novel set during the same time period; don't connect it with the Merlin Trilogy/Arthurian Quartet.

*is not a huge fan of White or Morris* Although I do really like The Savage Damsel and the Dwarf for some reason....

So, went to my city's annual antiquarian book fair yesterday and made off like a bandit with a whole set of first edition Mary Stewart--all four! I almost fainted when I found them.

Haven't heard about this fifth book of hers, but it sounds intriguing.

I'm reading Percival's Angel by Anne Eliot Crompton right now. So far it's all right: I like the different narrative styles she uses for the humans and the fay. Has anyone read any of her other Arthurian novels? (She wrote at least two more.) And are they worth reading?

For those who haven't read it yet, I really recommend Parke Godwin's Arthurian anthology Invitation to Camelot. Contains stories by Godwin himself, Jane Yolen, Morgan Llewellyn, etc.

Review here:
http://www.librarything.com/work/133651/reviews/54261412

There's a multi-award winning YA novel by Philip Reeve, Here Lies Arthur, which has a very different and much darker take on the traditional legend (with a couple interesting transgender twists along the way).

Also, I just got finished reading Wastelands: Stories of the Apocalypse on my Kindle, and my favorite of its stories, "Artie's Angels" by Catherine Wells, gives the Arthurian legend a futuristic twist.

Curious if any of you have read any old or new novels centered on the story of Tristan and Isolde. If so, which did you enjoy and why? For my own novel, I had to do loads of research on this particular tale, and stumbled upon Nancy McKensie's Prince of Dreams and Rosalind Miles' trilogy on the same legend. I enjoyed both. Wondered if any of you found others to recommend.

Not a novel per se, but I loved Rosemary Sutcliff's retelling of the Tristan and Iseult legend.

Off the top of my head, didn't John Fowles riff on this theme in The Ebony Tower? I haven't read it yet so I may well have that wrong. Read Sutcliff's version way back when, and only have vague memories of it. In fact, not sure why I'm adding to this thread except that something is nagging at the back of my head! I'll let you know when it emerges.

033. The acts of King Arthur and his noble knights
Finished reading: 26 February 2012



Cross Posted from my Thread on Club Read 2012

The acts of King Arthur and his noble knights by John Steinbeck is a retelling of Malory's Morte D'Arthur. Steinbeck worked on it, on and off, for about a decade, between 1956 and 1965, before abandoning it. The unfinished manuscript was published posthumously in 1976.

It seems that in the field of literature, retelling has a negative ring. It smacks of abridgement, and simplification, especially for immature or inexperienced readers. In Western literary circles, the text is sacred and untouchable. This, unlike music, where the vitality of the cultural experience is defined by successful reinterpretation, although even here there is a discernable striving for the perfect performance.

John Steinbeck had a vision about the value of retelling. This vision resulted in the creation of so called play-novelettes, such as Burning Bright, Of Mice and Men and The Moon Is Down, which are retellings or rewrites of drama into short novellas, in order to keep them available, and readable in an enjoyable format for the wider public. Many classical plays are forgotten or seldom performed, while very few people enjoy reading drama. The play-novelettes recreate the stories from the drama in prose, which a wider audience may read and appreciate.

A similar didactic vein can be traced in the retelling of The acts of King Arthur and his noble knights. Few people will attempt to read Malory's Morte D'Arthur in the original version. In the introduction, Steinbeck relates how as a child he was mesmerized by the magic of the story and the wonder of the language, and it has been his life-long dream to share that experience render the Morte D'Arthur in a way readily accessible to modern readers.

The Penguin Modern Classics edition includes nearly 70 pages of correspondence between John Steinbeck and his editors about his research, and the development of his ideas with regard to this project. Unfortunately, only Steinbeck's letters are reprinted, omitting the answers from his correspondents, with the exception of a single letter from Chase Horton to Steinbeck, in June 1968. This correspondence makes a very valuable contribution to the book, which could have been enhanced by a critical introduction by the editor.

It becomes clear that Steinbeck invested a great deal of time and effort in this project, aiming to base the work on the best possible source, and working with eminent experts in the field of interpretation of the work. The published work is unfinished, which may partly account for the relative shortness of only 293 pages. Steinbeck also consciously omitted sections from the original text, which he felt did not fit the unity of the work.

The posthumously published version falls apart in two parts, which are stylistically very different. Some reviewers regret this division arguing that the work should have been finished in one style, pointing at the demerit of the other style.

The first five books, Merlin, The Knight with Two Swords, The Wedding of King Arthur, The Death of Merlin and Morgan Le Fay are written in a fairly close translation. This section best preserves the freshness of the original text. Much of the text seems emblematic and repetitive, with a lot of emphasis of events and description, but little or no psychology or character development. The story has a distinctive, medieval feel to it.

The final two books, Gawain, Ewain, and Marhalt and The Noble Tale of Sir Lancelot of the Lake are novelized. In this section, the story is rewritten in Steinbeck's own, American novelistic style. The emphasis in this section is on character development, and experience of the tale. The stylistic divide is so great, that if it weren't for the characters' names, it could have been an entirely different story. The story has a typical, contemporary feel to it.

Some reviewers have expressed their opinion that it was Steinbeck's intention to rewrite the entire work in the contemporary, Twentieth Century novelistic style. The two chapters we have show that it would be a very interesting possibility. While I did enjoy reading these two books, my preference is with the style which remains closer to the original. Perhaps the book remained unfinished because of Steinbeck's indecision in this matter.



Other books I have read by John Steinbeck:
Burning bright

>57 edwinbcn:
I read this for the first and only time not long after the book was published in the UK, so can only speak from faulty memory.

My impression was that Steinbeck's retelling was unfinished because he was moving from a version of Malory in modern English (rather like the roughly contemporary Keith Baines' version) to a radical re-fashioning and re-imagining of his own, loosely based on Malory; and that because he was probably beginning to realise he would have to go back and re-think his earlier sections he came to a creaking stop.

I've not looked at it since then (what's that, 35 years ago?) so can't swear that this impression was based on anything approaching reality. My only interest in reading a modern version would be if there was some radical re-interpretation that shed light on the original (short of an academic study). As Steinbeck never completed his re-casting we may never know in what direction he was going to take his version.

<54 There is a brilliant retelling of the Tristan and Iseult story by Marion Campbell The Dark Twin.

That meant to say, in reply to 55, that The Dark Twin is a brilliant retelling of the Tristan and Iseult story.

Things have been a quiet here lately. Hoping that Arthur is 'nat dede' but only sleeping.

I'm posting Arthurian reviews on a blog here http://calmgrove.wordpress.com/arthuriana/ if anyone's interested. This might be an appropriate place to suggest that others who blog Arthuriana (fiction, non-fiction and anything in between) could do worse than mention it here too.

He's probably just pining for the fjords.

I'm worried he might be nailed to some perch.

just ran across this
http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/acpbibs/lmbib.htm

>64 Crypto-Willobie:
Yes, I suppose I ought to have drawn attention to this before; the compiler, Larry, is a real enthusiast and has, I guess, read most of the entries, especially if editors and compilers have sent him a copy. If you look SECTION C: Periodicals Containing Arthurian Short Stories, under Pendragon Magazine you may find a couple of short stories that I've, ahem, penned as Chris Lovegrove...

Sure the reference isn't to Charles Williams, who wrote Arthurian poems?

>66 onesmallhole:
I'm lost -- which reference?

I must agree, the "Mists of Avalon" was a strange piece of doctrinaire feminism to me.