Kama Sutra

Received a mailing for a LE limited to 750 copies @$795 Canadian. Each book presented with a signed artist's print showing the Embrace of Thighs, the artist being Victo Ngai. My ordering history may have suggested to them that I'm the sort of randy git who'd appreciate early notice, but I won't be buying. The KS is forever associated in my mind with Barry Mackenzie anointing the old lingam with mixed spices from the grocery store when he couldn't find the recommended unguents.
http://www.foliosociety.com/book/KSL/kama-sutra
edited to add http

Bound in cloth and $600....wow. It's not like this is letterpress.

>1 Jayked:

Thanks for that. I've been speculating this week whether Folio might choose to slip an LE into the programme ahead of the summer sale and lo, it came to pass. As one of the dirty old men who voted for this in the survey I feel almost obliged to buy. I'm not familiar with the illustrator and I was hoping for more traditional illustrations a la Burton. It deserves a sumptuous treatment and I'm not yet convinced Folio have gone the extra mile for a £400 book. Abbey Pure Rough? Having said that, it looks nice enough, gilt edge AND a solander.

I'll sleep on it.

Good for them for publishing this title and I hope it sells well. For my part, I think using Burton's version is a drawback (although it isn't likely to deter those who associate his name with all things Oriental-sexy), but the worse problem are the illustrations. I suppose they may have kept secret a few less coy ones (at least I hope so); however, there's this children's picture-book vibe to the general style that seems misplaced.

Oddly enough, the same illustrator did their Chinese fairy tales and fantasies, but in a very different way which seems to me both more appealing and more successful as illustration.

Regarding the translation, it's good to keep in mind Burton/his translators had no qualms in padding, inventing and downright misrepresenting the text:

But over the years, the book's true nature has become obscured by Burton's translation, which was ''flowery, padded, loose and euphemistic,'' Ms. Doniger said. Burton mixed in commentary that was written centuries later with the original text, he mistranslated sections and he obscured the role of women, blatantly altering the text to make them seem more submissive.

One glaring example, Ms. Doniger said, is a description of what a woman should do when her husband is unfaithful. Burton's text: ''She should not blame him excessively, though she be a little displeased. She should not use abusive language toward him, but rebuke him with conciliatory words.''

But the original text says quite the reverse, Ms. Doniger said, and should read, ''She scolds him with abusive language when he is alone or among friends.'' Burton also diluted the sections dealing with women's sexual pleasure. Amid the instructions for men, for example, he included the phrase ''while a man is doing to the woman what he likes best.''

That phrase, which is not in the original, puts the emphasis on men, Mr. Kakar said, adding that ''the true implication of the passage -- the importance of women -- had gone completely unnoticed in the Burton translation.''

To Ms. Doniger, ''The Burton text leaves out the possibility of mutuality of men and women.''

Ms. Doniger and Mr. Kakar used a number of tactics to communicate the surprising equality found in the ancient text. They translate the woman's voice in the first person, or direct address, whereas in Burton her words appear as indirect address.

Ms. Doniger and Mr. Kakar have also hewed more closely to the original Sanskrit. ''There are words in Burton's version that don't even occur in the original,'' Ms. Doniger said. For instance, when referring to male and female sexual organs, Burton repeatedly used the Sanskrit words ''lingam'' and ''yoni,'' in his English translation. But, Ms. Doniger said, in the original those words are almost never used. Vatsyayana actually uses the more neutral term ''jaghana,'' which means ''the area between the navel and the thighs,'' so that descriptions of sexual pleasure could apply to either sex.

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/04/books/a-new-kama-sutra-without-victorian-veil...

(ETA: geez, NYT, hire some online copy editors...)

I quite like the illustrations (an understatement; I think they look glorious), although I'm not sure I could get "I bought a £395 copy of the Kama Sutra, but only for the illustrations" past my better half.

>6 gmacaree:

"I bought a £395 copy of the Kama Sutra, but only for the illustrations"

Dude. There's a WAY better spin you could put on buying the Kama Sutra. :)

>5 LolaWalser:
The mailing says "the majority of the illustrations in the book are more explicit, befitting the subject matter." It's all presented in a "discreet" cloth box. As discreet as brown paper, presumably.

Some leather would have been nice, but ordered anyway.
Added to the List of FS LEs at http://www.librarything.com/topic/289173.
Wonder if the price for Australians will go up on 1 July when GST is added?

Sad. I saw a while back that a LE Kama Sutra was in the pipelines. I love studying religion (even have a couple academic degrees in the field) and Hinduism is perhaps the most fascinating religion out there (in my view anyways). I was highly suspecting I would purchase FS’s LE of Kama Sutra (would be my first LE), even for $600. Unfortunately, the translation the FS chose to use is subpar (I suspected Burton’s translation would be used). Maybe if they come out with a regular edition of it in the future I would be willing to buy it, but I can’t spend $600 on a translation that I know is inadequate (which is not all that unusual in early translations of religious works, e.g., Trumpf’s translation of the Sikh sacred text “Sri Guru Granth Sahib” treated Sikhism as merely a peculiar offshoot of Hinduism).

A pity they used a translation that takes too many liberties with the text. I must say I like the illustrations, but I certainly won't buy the book at this price. I'd expect both the illustrations and the text to be convincing for 395 Pounds. It's a pity that FS all too often go for the (free) old and often faulty or bowdlerised translations, when there are better new ones.

>11 SF-72: You are absolutely right with the translation. I would would have agreed if the were doing a facsimile, but taking such an old translation is unacceptable. Being a Hindu, I was so excited when FS decided to publish this book as I have been gently coaxing them for years to do a LE of Mahabharata or Ramayana. Most of these old editions just translate word by word without local/cultural contexts. LolaWalser's post explains it quite well. I can't believe they could not find a decent translation in the past 100 years and it is just lazy of them to take an old Victorian one for a culturally 'complex' text.

The illistrations look lile modern cartoon network. Not sure what they were thinking?
...not sure what i was expecting, but still! Its like theyre trying to convey wholesomeness for kids. Is anyone here gonna read this to their kid? The more i think about it, the more absurd these illustrations become. This looks completely novelty/kitchy.

Nevermind what i said above, ive had a more thorough lookthrough and i think this might actually become a great LE for FS. My bad!

£395 for a cloth bound book? They must be pretty sure they will move copies fast if they think they can put it out in this binding for this price! Definitely not me!

What is this LE meant to be? A depiction of Victorian England's prudish view of the world, or a proper English edition of the original? If FS meant it to be the latter, I wonder why they chose such a controversial and outdated translation with obvious, fatal flaws. If the former, I wonder why FS bothered to publish it at all.

Ah well, it'll probably sell out fast and prove me wrong. Who knows...

I double take back what i said. Folio Society needs to sharpen research on their translations, they pick the most popular one, and as a result one of the top 3 most gorgeous bindings of War And Peace has a useless Pevear and Volkhonsky translation. Same with the Monte Cristo, why would they use that anonymous translation from the choppy and awkward 19th century first english edition, instead of going with a good one?

They need to stop doing this since because they are the absolute kings of luxurious bindings, its heartbreaking when they use a sub-par or even unreadable text, as if they don't care. Same goes for when they don't include footnotes or when they use abridgements. They NEED to be more careful and show that they can focus on the text instead of only the pretty binding.

As for my own suggestions that no one asked for,
Why not publish a Remembrance of Things Past with the unrevised Moncrieff translation as an LE, since that considered a monumental masterpiece on its own? When the text and binding are equally satisfying, nothing makes me happier than a Folio Society book and i think the proust has potential.

>17 harvestRoad: "War And Peace has a useless Pevear and Volkhonsky translation"

Defending Pevear and Volokhonsky

>11 SF-72:
>12 venkysuniverse:

I'd point out that the Fitzgerald Rubaiyat is supposedly nothing like the Persian original. I know Burton is not in the same league, but I don't see how taking liberties with the text has anything to do with it. If it's bad, it's bad, I admit but loose translations used to be really common, the 'Spirit' of the text being more important than academic pedantry. And it's not like it was done from ignorance. This is Burton we are talking about, master of 23 languages and one of the greatest adventurers of his day.

>16 Fierylunar:

I think they chose it because Richard Burton is one of the few translators in history who could
live up to to the works they translated, as explorer, scholar and sexual adventurer. I'm also
thinking of the Thousand Nights and A Night. I guess they could have used Professor so-and-so
of the University of 'who cares,' but why bother. You could just go to Amazon for that.

>19 MobyRichard:

Judging by the examples above I would call it a bad translation in that it moves too far from the text and changes its meaning to suit a different time and culture. That's not the same as making a translation that doesn't translate word by word but tries to bring across the meaning and tone of an original. It's always best when you don't need to depend on a translation, but if you do, it should be one that doesn't change the original like this.

>12 venkysuniverse:
>17 harvestRoad:

My impression is that the basis for this is that they don't have to pay for these old translations since they're well beyond copyright. And unfortunately, what's called a loose translation in post 19 really was very common - removing material that didn't suit, changing it etc.. I'm really glad that in recent years a lot of classics have received unabridged and more faithful translations, so FS picking others (like for the Monte Cristo or this) is a huge disappointment. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to stop that many people from buying them anyway, so why should they change this?

Well I had a good think about it overnight and my conclusion is no, for now anyway.

Significant factors (for me):

1. The illustrations. From what I've seen I'm inclined towards the view they belong in a children's storybook. I've seen nothing remotely suggesting erotic so far.
2, The translation. As has been widely noted, there are far better. I spent a little time this morning reading up on the alternatives and they have chosen an unsympathetic one.
3. The binding. What we have here is probably much closer to a fine edition than a Limited Edition. I would argue some fine editions are better produced and look better than this, at a fraction of the price.
4. This is the Kama Sutra we're talking about. If the illustrations are poor and the translation is not the best, what's the point?

Maybe once people start receiving their copies and we see some hands-on reviews (are you getting one of these, Pontus?) I might shift my view. It's situations like this where I really miss Russell's reports from the dMR.

Burton's version of the Kama Sutra is interesting in its own way, but probably more for reasons outside the text itself. If you're interested in cultural history, this version's origin and history make for a fascinating read--I recommend James McConnachie's The Book of Love: the story of the Kamasutra very much.

Note that Burton didn't do much of the actual translating from Sanskrit at all--for that he had at least two Indian translators (whose names we know), Bhagvanlal Indraji and Shivaram Bhide, and a collaborator, F. F. Arbuthnot, who by all evidence contributed as much as, if not more, than Burton. However, it's not surprising that Burton's colourful personality imprinted this version with his ownership, at least in the mind of the public, and he WAS the major force behind getting it printed in England, albeit clandestinely, in the first place. (It would not be published openly until the sixties.) If the general public is talking about the Kama Sutra today, it's almost entirely due to Burton's activity on its behalf.

The 2002 Oxford University Press edition by Doniger and Kakar is the first scholarly complete translation into English. I haven't read it, but going by translations directly from Sanskrit into some other languages which I have read, there is definitely something different going on. It's not easy to describe because you have to take in account the context of so many things--the text itself (which is actually a huge compendium of proper conduct of which sexual behaviour is just a fraction), the 3rd century Hindu society in which it originated, the commentaries added in later centuries, and later erotological texts which superseded Vatsyayana's Kama Sutra in various ways--when I say "later", it's still the middle-Middle Ages in Europe, tenth to the twelfth century--and then, crucially, Victorian imperialist politics and Burton himself, both as his "private" character and his role of a British imperialist agent, and what he wanted to achieve in publishing "Oriental" "sexy books".

Burton was a dedicated taboo-breaker who went consciously against Victorian prudishness--by the standards of the time. So there's a good deal of irony in that his version ultimately fails (in our contemporary understanding) because it obscures the real nature of a 3rd century Hindu worldview. The latter was in a way too radical for a Victorian to comprehend. (And gradually alienated from modern Hindu society itself, by the way.)

tl; dr--for anyone looking for a taste of Victorian erotica, or interested in the history of erotic literature and pornography, Burton's version has a value of its own. But to learn what the Kama Sutra really is, what role and social purpose it had, and to get some inkling of what the society in which it originated used to be like, one has to look elsewhere.

>19 MobyRichard: The reason for my displeasure was due to the fact that KS is deep rooted in Indian society norms and culture and just knowing a language will never be enough to understand the nuance of a particular word or a sentence (ditto for any other culture).It needs to be studied unlike a work of fiction. I have read and relished Burton's Vikram and the Vampire, as his omissions does not corrupt the essence of the stories.

Time and again (even now) western scholars are translating old Sanskrit and other Indian language texts which are interpreted from a western philosophy standpoint. Wendy Doniger's Hinduism book also had lot of 'misinterpretations'.

http://hindureview.com/2014/02/20/critique-wendy-donigers-hindus-alternative-his...


I think FS had a wonderful opportunity to publish a handsome edition of an important Hindu text which no other publisher might do in the coming decades and I am gutted that my fellow FS devotees will read about 19th century (foreign) ideas about Hinduism and not the latest english language scholarship.

Other opinions are available.

Wendy Doniger's book is a tribute to Hinduism's complexity, not an insult

>25 LolaWalser: Thanks. I disagree wholeheartedly with the decision to ban the book. However,I would have been more happy if she would have defended her work with evidence as it would have shut the detractors. I have not seen any rebuttal from her on the points which were raised against the text by other scholars.It would have been great for readers if we had both sides of the argument so that a balanced decision can be made. However, like the article you have shared, we only have information on how the events unfolded and not a counter-argument with facts which would have been more productive.

24: I totally see your point as valid. At the same time, as Lola has pointed out, you still learn something from this famous translation. Also, a hundred years from now, other scholars may look at current scholarly translations and say they are "replete with errors". But, should that stop us from reading a classic and getting "something" out of it? Personally, I will admit, I enjoy Burton (mistakes and all).

Lastly, the book does come with a commentary volume which I can only assume is scholarly in nature.

>26 venkysuniverse:

There's this:

India: Censorship by the Batra Brigade

With due respect to you, venky, who seem a lovely person, and in all honesty, I'm afraid to pursue a conversation that's likely to involve discussions of Hindu nationalism and politics. Online and in public, at least. Having said that I'd better emphasise that I'm not remotely expert in these topics and don't have any sort of earth-shattering opinions to reveal on them, I'm just going by what I see happens whenever these things pop up.

But I hope the above helps to shed some light for you on Doniger's approach, at least.

>27 astropi:

Even I like the translation by Burton and have ended up purchasing this.

>22 folio_books:

I understand that there are other erotic illustrations but they not been presented on the website for obvious reasons.

This defending pevear and volkhonsky article isnt credible based on the fact that they have taken Orlando Figes' points about what P&V bring forth from the russian language that others havent, since he made a book about russian culture that gets dozens and dozens of facts about War and Peace and Bulgakovs heart of a dog wrong. But even discarsing that fact, P&V are barely readable. Direct translations do not work for that reason alone and they miss the point all the time.

From a seperate blog, not written by me,

'I haven’t read that translation, but from the excerpted passage I already dislike it. For instance:

"But on the road, on the high road along which the troops were marching, there was not that coolness even at night and in the woods"

is a translation of

"Но по дороге, по большой дороге, по которой шли войска, даже и ночью, даже и по лесам, не было этой прохлады (Google translate: But along the road, along the great road through which the troops marched, even at night, even in the woods, there was no such coolness)"

The original seems a little bit clumsy, until you realize that it’s arranged, as they used to say, “periodically”–that is, with attention to a particular rhythm. The marching of the sentence, and the passage itself, is meant to replicate the weariness and enervation of the marching troops. The translation puts the coolness that resolves the sentence right in the middle, which wrecks the rhythm completely.
And this quote from Richard Pevear:

Terms like “gorgeous,” “sonorous,” and “lovely” simply have no relevance to Tolstoy’s work

suggests that such a man ought not to be trusted with a work as beautiful as War and Peace.'

P&V is wooden and the book reads in sort of a non-prose, you will most likely be putting the book down after 10 minutes with P&V.

And now allow me to retort further with more articles:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/06/23/socks-translating-anna-karenina/

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/the-pevearsion-of-russian-literature...

>30 harvestRoad: "You will most likely be putting the book down after 10 minutes with P&V."

I only put the P&V translation of War and Peace down to sleep when I first opened it ;)

>30 harvestRoad:

Which translation of War and Peace do you find most enjoyable and accurate to read? If there one particular translator of Russian literature, e.g., Constance Garnett, Rosemary Edmonds, Anthony Briggs, etc., that you find particularly sympathetic to the Russian language and its translation into English?

I wonder if the essays in the commentary volume cover and discuss many of the criticisms mentioned above.

I have The Complete Illustrated Kama Sutra and will stick with that for now. It is also based on the Burton and Arbuthnot translation but has additions from other Sanskrit versions by the editor Dane, who is a scholar and the founder of the Sansrkiti Museum of Everyday Art in Delhi. The illustrations include photographs of pertinent artwork and sculptures. $25 new; my used copy was $18 from Powell's.

I don't mind Burton for the FS edition if you keep in mind his cultural and other biases and agendas. I tend to seek out several translations of seminal (pun unintended but noted) works of the ancient world. For me it is just too much money, too little fine press at first glance for me to be tempted. I'd love to see it, though! (MOLE: Feel free to send me a copy to review on my fine press blog. I'll send it back).

As a side note, I have been campaigning for a fine press treatment of the Yoga Sutra, as that is one that interests me as a yoga teacher and student. I have multiple translations, commentaries, vulgarizations, downright mutations, etc. There are SO many versions: traditional, spiritual, scholarly, new-agey, controversial, etc. But most of them help me to move towards the heart of the teachings. I would be hard pressed (pun again!) to resist an limited edition of the YS and might even renounce my house for it!

Despite its reputation, this is not erotica, even if erotic. As the Kama Sutra says: "...an intelligent and prudent person, attending to dharma and artha, and attending to kama also, without becoming the slave of their passions, obtains success in everything that they may undertake." (Ha ha, I did my own emendation and removed gender from the previous quote)

>28 LolaWalser: Thanks for the article.It was insightful.Also, I don't think you need to be worried about putting your points across (esp. in this forum) as this whole facade of Hindu nationalism and the 'trolls' associated with Hindu fundamentalism are no more or no less than other crazy people who get hurt when your opinion does not align with theirs. I really wish Christopher Hitchens was alive today, in this era on internet news madness!

The group of people who tried to ban the book were not the group I wanted Wendy to answer to, but to scholars who critiqued her work and she could have had a healthy debate with them, online.

>27 astropi: I agree and will purchase the book, as I doubt we will get a fine press treatment anytime soon. I will also read Wendy's translation which LolaWalser mentioned in the earlier post.

>34 jveezer: Good news for you :). I recently purchased a fine edition of the Bhagavad Gita and the Yoga Sutra on my trip to India and they are both splendid editions. I was going to review them soon on this and the Fine press forum. It is by an Indian printing house and I was stunned at the effort they have put in to create these books.

https://nightingaleshop.com/uk/the-yogasutras-of-patanjali

The promo video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8YTxz66eEo

This is one massive book with a book stand and the same shop also has a signature edition of Bhagavad gita as well.The translation for both books are very neutral in nature.

https://nightingaleshop.com/uk/the-bhagavad-gita-signature-edition

Youtube promo videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv9ZEGBUDJE

>34 jveezer:

Despite its reputation, this is not erotica, even if erotic.

This is so true regarding the original--but the fact can't be helped that Burton, others like him, and 19th century Western orientalist approach in general have "pornified" a lot of cultural artefacts and traditions, turning them into commercial erotica. Notably in the perception of the audience! Most of the time it's less the matter of the subject than the quality of the gaze trained upon it.

>35 venkysuniverse:

I'm glad we can avoid the minefield. :) As for Doniger, I've no idea who or what she may have addressed in addition to what's available online--speaking as an expert, albeit in an utterly different field, and nowhere near her academic stature, I wouldn't spend time answering criticisms happening outside the academic environment. Now, that may be easier for natural scientists, but I imagine there's a special vulnerability people in humanities have to political attacks, to getting enmeshed in strident public debates that ignore the very basics of scholarship, that might make them all the more reluctant to enter the fray?

In any case, lacking an insider's insight into this case specifically, the most I can say is simply that, generally speaking, it would surprise me if a scholar of her reputation ignored worthwhile criticism.

There are now download links for the Kama Sutra brochure on both the FSD wiki here. and the Complete List of FS Books here.

>17 harvestRoad:
>30 harvestRoad:

I guess it makes sense that those who view "useless" as a synonym for "wooden" or "clumsy" or "stilted" or "overly literal" would prefer freer translations to those of P&V.

>37 LolaWalser: Valid points. She may well have debated it, but a shame that transcripts are not available to general audiences, as we have a dearth of additional information (in English) on the lesser known classical Indian texts , unlike the western counterparts.

I am (have got used to) archaic translations with my folio books (no pun intended Glenn). Lastly i fought my way through Dracula, thus are the classics (with that it is also a part of it`s charm probably)

Translations will always be a matter of interpretation also, will it not? I mean Vatsyayana is not alive to properly lay weight on what is said to be his sayings? Mr. Burton et. al`s interpretation and agenda are one thing, what i would do / and probably will is to read this translation with my own joyfull character and read it without prejudgement - it is undoubtly a classic translation. If i am willing to pay this amount would be of another matter.

Sure there are better dating, personality growth, sexual books out there, by todays standards depending on person asked, but it would not hurt to have it alongside those others as the classic it is.

The Independent's review contains more illustrations than the FS site. I am leaning towards getting now.

>42 gmacaree:

That's certainly more towards erotic than we've seen from the Folio website and brochure. Perhaps it's just this artist's style I can't get away with but I can't convince myself that paying £400 for what I've seen so far represents value for money. Perhaps if it makes it into a sale.

>30 harvestRoad:

Using JStor and Lexis/Nexis, I've come up with a list of a few people who don't think the work of Pevear & Volokhonsky is useless:

Liza Knapp (Berkeley)
Caryl Emerson (Yale)
Mark Rudman (NYU)
Michael R. Katz (Middlebury)
Sidney Monas (Texas)
Donald Fanger (Harvard)
Michael Henry Heim (UCLA)
Hugh McLean (Berkeley)
Zenon Feszczak (Penn)
Andre Alexis (Toronto)
Claire Messud
Michael Dirda
Simon Schama (Columbia)
Robert Belknap (Columbia)
Andrei Navrozov
James Wood (Harvard)
Eileen Battersby
Sam Solecki (Toronto)
Angela Livingstone (Essex)

(Affiliations of academics are listed in parentheses. Links are to Wikipedia pages, if they exist.)

The members of the selection committees for the 1991 and 2002 PEN Translation Prizes could be added to this list, if we knew who they were.

I'm guessing you're ignoring the fact that they simply aren't pleasant reads, that they are falsely lauded to translate the idiosyncracies when they don't even seem to understand the sentence theyre translating. You can add Oprah on that list. Disregarding what people will say about Oprah, good or bad, does that add merit? Not at all. To quote wilde, "Everything popular is wrong".

Why do you think we don't use direct translations?

Heres more articles for you,

https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/01/the-pevearvolokhonsky-hy...

Let's compare,

The Idiot
https://web.archive.org/web/20131109201638/http://comparetranslations.com/index....

Notes From Underground
https://web.archive.org/web/20131109182920/http://comparetranslations.com/index....

If you ignore, like you would, how much more immersive and vivid the P&V is to Garnett or any other lauded candidate ... "I think my liver hurts" ...

"I think my liver hurts".

!!!

I am not from an english speaking country, i can understand how "i think my liver hurts" would make sense in russian and that P&V aren't trying to add any flowery language or poetry that isnt there into the english, but this barely makes sense and "i think my liver is hurting" or "i think my liver is diseased" isn't flowery or more poetic or purple, it's how fyodor would have said it did he write in english. But he wrote in russian, and this is not russian, but neither is it english.

"I am a wicked man" doesn't make any sense either. Apparently "wicked" and "spiteful" use the same word in russian, or there is a word which is synoymous with both of them (злой), but in the context of Notes From Underground, "spiteful" is CLEARLY THE WORD TO USE.

You're a real prince myshkin

>46 harvestRoad: "i think my liver is hurting" or "i think my liver is diseased" isn't flowery or more poetic or purple, it's how fyodor would have said it did he write in english

neither of these are more natural in english than "i think my liver hurts"

...yes they are

.....

Er, no they're not. I don't know what the Russian actually means, but "I think my liver hurts" is perfectly natural English, and is probably a tad more natural than "I think my liver is hurting" (although the latter is used and is not incorrect). Strictly speaking they do mean different things, but in this context most would take them as meaning pretty much the same.

"I think my liver is diseased" and "I think my liver hurts" mean two different things, so the accuracy depends on the original Russian, which I don't read.

However useless it is to discuss Russian translations without any Russian, I agree that Pevear and Volokhonsky produce stilted, clumsy English. Their practice of Volokhonsky, a native Russian speaker, producing a first, overly literal translation which is then somehow reviewed for style by Pevear — whose Russian is, if not rudimentary, at best inadequate to treating greats like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky alone — seems to only muddy meaning. You're getting a translation of a translation. Many comparisons can be found online comparing P&V with Garnett or the Maude sisters; the latter two will be found to be more natural in almost every case, absent the strange contortions injected into the text by the former.

As for this, uh, Kama Sutra, the less said the better.

If you can get past the first 50 pages of P&V's translation of Leskov's short stories without groaning, then you're a true convert. Similarly, I was disappointed FS used the Smollett translation of Candide which felt incongruously penny pinching bound in such a fine wrapper. There are several FS books I have avoided due to arcane (copyright free) translations. Oddly I also consider the creakier Constance as superior to P&V. Check out Oliver Ready's take on Crime & Punishment for how it should be done!

The French are very specific when it comes to bodily upsets and often say "J'ai mal au foie" when an English person would say "I feel sick" after drinking too much... Just like "J'ai mal au coeur" (my heart hurts) when they are nauseous or "J'ai mal aux reins" (my kidneys hurt) when they have backache. Maybe it's the same for Russians, I don't know...

>50 Rodomontade:
However useless it is to discuss Russian translations without any Russian
Just to be clear - I was discussing the English, not the translation. I have no view on the quality of P&V translations as I don't know Russian, but I've had no problems with their readability to date.

>42 gmacaree:

Thank you for the link.

I really like those illustrations. More temptation is really not what I needed... ;-)

I used to do a lot of reading and research trying to figure out the absolute best translation when I was interested in reading a foreign work. In recent years I've come to the conclusion that there's always something lost in translation, no matter how accurate a given translation might be. For favorite books (like Anna Karenina), I simply seek to read it in different translations to see how they compare in their readability. But I think for someone who can't speak and read the original language, the only thing to do is to read what you like.

But I find it interesting that for all the praise in various articles cited above of Garnett's translation being accurate (or at least more acceptable), Vladimir Nabokov abhorred her translation of Tolstoy's masterpiece for inaccuracies. The point is I think this is all subjective. You just have to read what you like to read.

>54 SF-72: I just succumbed

Well, in the case of Nabokov, who is probably my favorite writer, he had grand ideas on translation and his Eugene Onegin, which is unreadable (AND was just published by the Arion Press for $1650 btw!), is more of a discussion and as interesting as the discussion of the evils of translating is, it is a necessary evil to translate it into an english prose as best as you can.

Maude, Garnett, Edmonds and Briggs' War and Peaces have been read throughout this century and the last, and they are all beautiful text that read pretty much the same, sentence to sentence, despite all of them starting from scratch, translating from the russian (one of these even got approved by the Tolstoy himself). They are all vastly different from P&V.

Just look at this comparison

https://www.tolstoytherapy.com/2014/01/on-war-peace-my-problems-with-pevear_17.h...

>56 gmacaree:

So far I'm still hanging on because of the translation. But it's by my fingernails...

>36 venkysuniverse: That Yoga Sutra does look pretty impressive and is definitely the nicest one I've seen so far. The signature edition is definitely out of my reach for now but I noticed they also have a creative pocket edition for about Rs$8000 with shipping to the Left Coast of the U.S.A. That is tempting indeed but I wonder if it would get here. I might ask one of my yogi friends that travel to India to check it out for me and carry it back if it is not too big. Have you seen that edition by any chance? Also, whose commentary are they using for this edition?

In any event, thanks for providing me with the link. It's an interesting package. It looks like it might even come with a yoga mat...How did you get it home from India?

>50 Rodomontade:

You have hit the proverbial nail on its head. However "accurate" and literal the P&V translations are, their English is a horrible read - awkward, stilted, convoluted and ultimately unreadable. After reading a paragraph of P&V you really have no idea what they are saying and all nuance in the original is lost. Constance Garnett may have written her translations through Victorian eyes, and in many instances there are words and phrases that are dated or not in common usage, but her Russian translations are notable for two things:

1. They are faithful to the spirit and intent of the original.

2. They are written in beautiful, poetic English and are a pleasure to read.

Which is the best translation? Easy to answer. It is the translation that enables you to read a work fluently, with comprehension and enjoyment. Unless a translation is wildly inaccurate, all else is of lesser importance.

We're already a tad OT here but, given all the discussion of language and translation, I wonder, have Folio ever published any Wittgenstein?

>61 Cat_of_Ulthar:

No.

>36 venkysuniverse:
Wow! They are magnificent books, and for what you get, the price is not over the top.

>59 jveezer: The biggest signature editions were 15kgs and I checked them in as one of my luggage. I also purchased a pocket edition for my dad and they are identical in terms of form and materials, but just shrunk to A6 (in your case). They do seem reasonable, based on the the production quality.

The company reps are quick to respond as well and you can drop an email to crm@sfa.co.in, as I too spoke to them via email to discuss various edition sizes and production quality. The easiest is to get it from India directly, however they are a decent sized press/company and shipping to the US should not be a problem, as they mentioned to me that they frequently ship to the US and the UK. I am not sure if you will get the yoga mat with the pocket edition, but worth asking if they can add it for an additional cost.

The commentary in English is by Acharya Vidyabhaskar, Winterthur, Switzerland.

>63 wcarter: I agree and like all fine press editions you have to see and feel it. I was very impressed with the overall output that I ended up buying both the signature editions. They have plans to release a signature edition of the Koran, the Bible and the Ramayana in the coming months. They are definitely the most luxurious versions of the Bhagavad Gita and the Yogasutra on the market as of today.

>64 venkysuniverse: Ha ha, thanks for the additional info! I'm well supplied with yoga mats but definitely might go for that pocket edition! I'll do some research on the commentator but I believe one should read as many different commentaries as possible to get to the heart of the sutras.

EXTRAORDINARY!!
On three different counts, the Kama Sutra of Vatsayana and the Folio Society are extraordinary.
- Ordered on Thursday and received (in Australia!) on Monday.
- I received copy number 2, the lowest possible number a customer can receive, as copy number 1 always goes to the Gavron family.
- This is a beautiful book. It may not have leather, but the production is first class. The price is relatively high compared to some earlier LEs, but almost certainly production costs have risen significantly in the past decade.
The best way to demonstrate the quality of the book is with photos. I will try to show you images different to those in the FS brochure and website, without revealing everything.









Endpapers


























Loosly inserted signed print




Commentary volume






Interior of Solander box

>67 wcarter: Nicely done! Even more tempting than the FS marketing material I received yesterday! That's an incredibly low limitation number. I have 13 for the Letterpress Shakespeare, which is pretty cool.

>67 wcarter: Very nice indeed. Has there been another Folio with a solander decorated on the interior?

Congratulations on the limitation number! Trust Folio to finally figure out how to do it on an LE I'm not interested in.

>67 wcarter: The brochure made this book look outstandingly attractive and you have confirmed that without a doubt. This is one of those books where I could be persuaded by the object rather than the contents which do not interest me at all. Maybe if the price were somewhat lower. Number 2 - envy.

I still say the illustrations look like a kids show

>72 harvestRoad:

I strongly disagree. The illustrations are very much in sync with the era the book is from, the subject matter and the geographical landscape that it represents.

I apologize for even saying this but these illustrations hardly evoke eroticism, regardless of what is being depicted

Bought today.

I don`t remember where i read it, and in the end it doesn`t matter. But this edition of Kama Sutra are set from a more female point of view (to balance the Burton translation maybe), henche why they chose Victo Ngai as the illustrator (but this is speculation, but that`s what we do here, speculate). More (sensual) erotica, less hardcore porn. More flowers and colours, less dingdongs. I have no need to see indian men with erected limbs anyways. How to be a good lover and all (for a thirteen year old boy, and yes, every ages), set from an ancient eastern point of view, still relevant though. As with everything sex.

I will dress my hippie outfit, and read it someday during summer.

>67 wcarter: Wow! This is amazing. I've never read it but I've been put off by others' comments about translation so I would hardly risk it at the price. But the book is outstanding; the 3rd image you posted goes to show that the cover is a work of art in itself. Unlike others I find the illustrations beautiful and the colour palette soothing but yet explosive. Well done FS. Well done!

Is it confirmed that copy #1 always goes to some family? In the USA I think that would be illegal, as in my opinion it should be.

>69 gmacaree:
I cannot recall another LE with an extensively illustrated Solander box interior, but I have seen this done by other fine book publishers.
>77 astropi:
The Gavron family effectively own the FS, so they get copy number 1of all LEs.
No-one has commented on the most amazing thing - it arrived in Australia only 4 DAYS after being ordered. I am more used to weeks, or even months. Most LEs normally take more than a week.

>67 wcarter: Thanks for the pics and congrats on the copy number :). The illustrations have a very traditional feel and I believe FS has hit a home run with the illustrator's choice.

>67 wcarter:
Thank you for these pictures. This is a likley buy. The book is beautifully designed and proportioned.
To my eyes the pictures offer an original, witty and yes, stimulating pictorial commentary.

>77 astropi: Seriously? It most certainly is not illegal, nor should it be. Why shouldn't the family that owns FS reserve copy #1 for itself? It is their prerogative. To prohibit such a practice is...socialist.

>81 ultrarightist:

While I agree with you that there is no reason to prohibit such a practice, to say otherwise doesnt exactly fall under the label of “socialist” (unless you’ve got such a loose definition of “socialist” as to make the word lose any real meaning).

>82 Diglot: The abolition of privilege, especially familial privilege, has ever been an aim of socialism. Perhaps I should have said democratic instead (democratism and socialism have much in common).

>82 Diglot: Agreed. The label is irrelevant. As is this post really but I felt like giving my endorsement for pointing it out.

Number 9 arrived today. Ordered last Thursday but took two extra days to reach past Brisbane to Canberra. I like the artwork and particularly the lining of the solander box. Got no 8 for Love Is Enough ordered first day. Next lowest is 11 for letterpress Richard 11 ordered from FS 5 years after it was published!Always a guessing game

Number 4 arrived yesterday. Love the artwork, inner lining of the solander box and the overall look of the book itself. Worth the money.

Got #2 for I am Legend and #5 for Riddley Walker in the past.

>69 gmacaree: I think the the solander for the Lovecraft LE was patterned on the inside.

Stolen..
My copy was expected to arrive on 12th and as I was not going to be home, I rescheduled on the DHL website to be delivered on 13th. I got an email confirmation of the new delivery date but for some reason they delivered it on 12th. it stayed on my porch for two hours then my door camera captured someone taking my package.. with my limited edition treasure.

I filed a police report and shared the video, hopefully they will find the thief.. I wonder how excited he is with the book now!!.

Later same day I got en email from someone with subject line "kama sutra from the Foilo Society", the text goes like this: "While adding more recycling to my recycling bin this morning, I found a bunch of cigarillo wrappers, receipts from Homefix Custom Remodeling and a receipt from the Folio Society. Congratulations on your recent purchase of the Kama Sutra, may it teach you well.. .. never, ever use my receptacles again".

Apparently the thief discarded the package and my receipt at someone's recycle bin, unfortunately not the book, I replied with apologies and tried to explain the situation, but difficult to do so when such a book in involved, not sure if she believed me.

I also contacted Folio Society, they were very kind to me, will send me a new copy!!. I hope they can get reimbursement from DHL.

>88 fp13: very unfortunate indeed but then again very fortunate that FS are sending you a new one.

The thief knows how much the book is worth so if a copy appears on ebay from a random seller soon we might have a lead...

>88 fp13:
My sincere sympathies to you. I get all my deliveries to work where there is always someone to receive parcels.
Where do you live? We should all watch out for any sales from your city.

Raleigh, North Carolina
Several my neighbors also missing packages and they also got him on camera and provided car description. The police might soon capture him.

Talking of Australian naughtiness, I warn any Brits travelling there that if on arrival they are asked by Australian Immigration and Customs whether they have a criminal record, they really should not answer 'Oh, Is that still compulsory then?'.

I have nightmarish visions of this being delivered to my place of work - 'Special delivery of KAMA SUTRA!' Extra-large KAMA SUTRA with ILLUSTRATIONS? Anyone? Raise your hand??

>93 Firumbras:
Hand raised 🖐

93-94: haha :)

Well you know, you can tell your boss you needed something new to read while at the restroom...

Hi there LolaWalser. Perhaps off topic, but important:

As someone conversant with the matter, I can pretty safely say that Doniger's book is riddled with exactly what the previously-mentioned critique claims: "There are errors of chronology, of historical dates and sequence of events, geography, verifiable historical facts, proper names, translations of Sanskrit texts and so on."

For example, she asserts in the above article:

""For instance, the lawsuit insists: “The book also defames youth icon Swami Vivekananda when it states that on being asked what he will eat, Swami Vivekananda replied ‘give me beef.’” The objection is not that this quotation is false, or insufficiently documented; it is true, and well documented. The objection is simply that repeating that statement in the book defamed Vivekananda.""

This is an outright lie, as the quotation is not well documented by any means. It is apocryphal, and from a person who was known to bear a personal grudge towards Vivekananda. At a supposedly public gathering, only one person heard it, and "revealed" it four years later after a bitter personal feud? Now hearsay counts as "well document and true" fact?

Forget about Hindu nationalism, politics, etc - these are matters of scholarship, translation, and hard facts, and on all three counts, Doniger comes up not just short but what can only be described as intentionally manipulative. The scariest part is that her Sanskrit language skills would barely get her through a A-level-equivalent exam.

She has, of course, not responded to any of the factual rebuttals to her assertions. It's strange that instead of doing so, as a proper scholar would, it is she who resorted to vitriolic ad hominem political attacks on those critical of her egregiously poor scholarship.

All in all, the misapprehensions about the East are so rampant in today's "scholarship" that having read Burton, I'd say without reservation that he is far more accurate, objective and poetically true to Sanskrit-English translation than the vast majority of Western scholars translating Sanskrit today.

Mine's here. #66

>97 gmacaree: a pleasing figure, though three short of the most coveted for this edition.

>98 cronshaw: three short of the most coveted for this edition.

Absolutely.

Welcome back Russell, you have been sorely missed :)

>98 cronshaw: Yes, I was slightly put out by the lack

>93 Firumbras:, 94
In fact the nightmare came partially true today. I arrive to the office to find FS's brochure gaudily emblazoned with KAMA SUTRA in my pigeonhole! If we had a watercooler there would be talk....

FS might like to consider simply printing 'announcing a new limited edition' on the envelope.

101: hmmm, well be careful when you order the FS edition of "The Best of Playboy" ...

#155 arrived monday. It came without the signed plate and also without the commentary volume. However the signed plate arrived lonesome today, and with fingers crossed and with a thread of hope i am awaiting the commentary volume still. In the end, i too will have a complete set of the Kama Sutra.

.. and i must say, it is very nice!

Commentary volume arrived today, set completed (as if anyone but me care about that) - anyway, i would like to share a nice gesture. Written by hand in times of computer:

Dear Mr.xxxxxx

Please bid enclosed a copy of the missing commentary volume. I`m so sorry you did not recieve it the first time, please accept our apologies

Many thanks - best wishes

- -

Many thanks Julie, you are a wonderful woman and we now have a bound you and i. I will save the note in the case (i am sad to say that the note does not smell of perfume, nor does have any distinctive marks of any kind, fingerprints is fair enough for starters, thus you are professional at what you do .. feel free to add a little scent - maybe next time).

`till then - All the best! And thanks again for the kind gesture ..

>97 gmacaree:

When you get a chance, could you let us know whether they mention, in the preface or the commentary, any changes, emendations to the text, or is it simply a reprint of the previous edition? Have they kept Burton's "eunuch" for homosexual, for example? I think it should be easy to find in the chapter on oral sex.

Not sure if anyone has posted this earlier...

We are happy to announce Victo Ngai as this year's Hamilton King Award winner for the limited edition Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana published by foliosociety! Celebrate @victongai during the Illustrators 61: Opening Reception: Part II: Book and Editorial Categories, on 02/08 at 6PM. pic.twitter.com/ioy3ZRTZFN

— Society Illustrators (@SOI128) December 20, 2018

The illustrator has been selected as last year's Hamilton King Award winner for this limited edition.

I’m curious on people’s thoughts about this in the 50% off Easter weekend sale?

I always thought this an attractive book, but it was just too expensive for me at full price, but now at £195 I am very tempted. What do others think, and if you could choose this or Ridley Walker, which would you go for?

>108 SingingSands:

I have both. I have to say that I really can't think of two more disparate Folios to compare. They are chalk and cheese. Personally I'd recommend the chalk but, as ever, it's a matter of individual taste.

>109 folio_books: very true, one is outright beautiful, although readable people obviously have issues with the translation. But I guess it is representative of its time.

The other less beautiful, but very appropriate for the story, which is probably better.

I have also never read either, but can only afford one, so the choice is between aesthetic or story. Do you have any regrets or any specific reason why you’d recommend either?

>108 SingingSands:

I went for the Kama Sutra because it's such a beautiful edition and I'm happy I bought it, though less happy that it was put on sale rather soon after I bought it at full price. But that's the usual gamble, other limited editions sell out without ever being on sale. I haven't read it as a whole, but what I saw of the text was actually quite interesting and - as I'd read before buying it - much more than one traditionally thinks of when one hears the title. I found it culturally interesting.

I never bought Ridley Walker because I dislike Quentin Blake's illustrations - he's kept me away from several books that would have interested me otherwise.

But all of this is very much about my personal taste, and in the end everyone has to decide for themselves what appeals more to them.

>111 SF-72: "I never bought Ridley Walker because I dislike Quentin Blake's illustrations - he's kept me away from several books that would have interested me otherwise."

You are not the only one.

>111 SF-72: If you're interested in a "high-quality" edition of Riddley Walker, the Easton Press edition is absolutely the way to go. It's SIGNED by Russell Hoban. It has a map, a glossary, a page of sketches by Hoban, a couple of B&W photos, but otherwise is not illustrated. Oh, and it's absolutely affordable.

>113 astropi:

Thanks for the tip.

2 copies of the Kama Sutra LE are available now. Folio appear to have found some previously sold out LEs. The New Sun and Dr. Zhivago have both had a copy or two suddenly become available in the past 6 hours.

Edited to add the Pearl Manuscript is now available as well

>115 Hamwick: Lovely edition of the Kama Sutra, and very tempting. But not tempting enough to overcome the extra $150 in the price for US buyers.

>115 Hamwick: They also had one copy of the Eric Gill Song of Songs up which sold. They must be clearing the garage :)