Requesting Remainder Marks on Replaced Books

I don't want this to be a discussion about the ethics or lack thereof of individuals who choose to complain about flaws in their books, whether due to production or shipping issues. That has been discussed at length. I have my own views about that.

What I'm hoping we can discuss is, once the decision has been made by the FS to replace someone's book, what should happen next.

We already know for LEs they request the limitation page and perhaps an illustration be mailed back to them, and a replacement copy mailed in return. For standard editions, no such action is needed, simply a photo, and a book is then replaced, no questions asked.

Some good folks here on LBT have very kindly simply given away dinged/damaged copies, which says a lot about their character, in a positive way.

Other times, these books are then sometimes sold at reduced prices, sometimes even near retail.

Would it be unreasonable of the FS to simply request a black line or dot be applied to the bottom of the page block to denote this is a copy which has been replaced for free by the FS?

This would then indicate the book has some blemish in some way, and prevent owners from profiting by selling these books at near-retail prices without disclosing it was received free of charge.

Are there any drawbacks that are being overlooked here?

>1 U_238: They used to request that the title page be cut out and returned to them, but stopped that practice some years ago. The problem with your suggestion is that the people who would mark a book in that way are those who wouldn't need to because they wouldn't try to profit from the situation. The unscrupulous could simply ignore the request.

The problem with a remainder mark in this situation is that these books are not remainders. They're damaged. So such a mark would be misleading.

>2 Jayked: Couldn't the FS request a photo of proof? I guess that's open to vulnerabilities too.

> 3 Sure, but you get the gist. Some kind of mark.

Not sure there is a perfect and final answer to this issue.

I hate to hear of books being deliberately damaged - even in these circumstances.

The Folio Society appear to have very good quality controls and I would hope that having to send out replacement books is an uncommon part of their work.

Selling heavy and damaged books is not that easy a task. I have lots of new condition Folio Society books bought years ago still taking up space in the stockroom!

I recently received an expensive book from FS in a damaged case. The damage wasn't tremendous but still it was damaged goods and I felt I should be recompensed. When I contacted FS I said I did not not want a replacement sent - the level of damage did not justify it. I suggested instead that they give me a discount code to use on my next order. They said they can't do that, but they did offer to give me free shipping on my next order, and I felt that was fair. So there are options available that don't involve replacements. And a shout-out to FS customer service for their continued excellence :)

The FS have clearly decided that it is in the best interests of the business to offer no-questions-asked replacement of damaged books.

Besides them, I'm not sure who is supposed be be harmed by the practice of reselling damaged copies. The second buyer presumably knows the condition of the book they are buying and is glad of the opportunity to buy it, the first buyer gets a fine condition book and the profit from selling the new one.

So, again, the only ones harmed seem to be Folio, but they have acted to reduce rather than increase the barriers to reselling (and cut back on packaging), suggesting we don't need to worry too much on their account.

>7 ubiquitousuk: I bought a copy of ‘The Hobbit’ by the FS second hand. Reading the book I suddenly discovered 8 blank pages in the middle of the book.
If I was a consumer who hadn’t bought a FS book in the past, then possibly I would think this lack of quality control was typical of the publisher. So it rather depends on the damage of the book. In some cases the FS would probably prefer for the book to disappear so it wouldn’t risk damaging their brand to prospective consumers in the future

>8 DMulvee: Sure, but this possibility certainly isn't news to the people at the Folio Society. And yet they decided not to make replacements conditional on evidence of the damaged book's destruction, even though they could easily do so. In other words, the people at Folio HQ have revealed, by their own actions, that they think demanding evidence of the book's destruction would make them worse-off rather than better-off. So if the intention of sending evidence of the book's destruction/marking is to protect Folio Society it seems to be misguided paternalism. And if it isn't intended to protect Folio, then who?

I don't believe they request the limitation page mailed back on LEs anymore. I've seen several for sale that have been replaced due to flaw that haven't had that done.

I have seen SO MANY people requesting replacements for books with dings that I can barely even see in their photos. I honestly think FS should stop mailing replacements unless the book is seriously damaged or an LE (in which case I do think mailing back the limitation page and an illustration should be required before the replacement is shipped out). It just really annoys me to see people doing what I think is taking advantage of Folio's generous policy.

>10 katielouise:

I for one am glad they haven't really gone wading into the subjectivity of what constitutes seriously damaged. Unless FS wants to enter into some sort of arrangement with their shipper allowing for hassle-free returns, even from abroad, my preference would be to keep the current policy in place. Whether I'm paying $1, $10, $100, $500, whatever, I expect a product free of flaws. What you call taking advantage, others, like myself, would call having a lower threshold for the acceptability of defects.

I absolutely love the way FS has always handled my customer service issues (i've posted such sentiments in several prior posts ... but it always deserves repeating).

It is what keeps me feeling zero hesitancy in any current and future purchases from them.

I'm frustrated with the fact that due to less than ideal packaging and a change in the company they use for shipping, I got a lot of damaged books recently. If they didn't have a hassle-free replacement policy in place, I'd hesitate to risk buying from them again. And I agree with those who have said that it should be up to the customer to decide whether or not a defect bothers them. We're not buying cheap paperbacks here, but we're mostly collectors of beautiful books. I also cringe at the idea of damaging a book. So ideally, they should package books better than is currently the case, choose a shipping company that does a good job, we'd be happy, no re-selling, giving away to friends, whatever of damaged books necessary. Everything else seems problematic, especially since it clearly doesn't pay off for them to demand a return. I was able to talk them into one (as opposed to tearing up books) for damaged limited editions when Eagle Street was still open and pre-Brexit / when shipping was cheap and no customs were involved. I wouldn't do so these days.

>13 SF-72: I'm with you. I do wish they packaged books a little better but their customer service is wonderful and makes up for it. It just drives me crazy when people request a return for the most minute imperfection only to then sell their 'defected' book online for 95% of the actual cost! I've been collecting books for over 20 years and books, like humans, age and become a little more imperfect each passing day. Those pristine Folio books are going to get scuffs, dust marks, spine creasing, a little dirt with one or two blemishes once reading, coffee accidentally spills, you pick your nose while reading a very engaging section and accidentally notice a booger on the page, your giant Newfoundland runs into your cherished library and he gets drool all over your most precious editions. Shit happens. Everything is imperfect so if there's a little blemish on an otherwise beautiful book, who cares?

I feel the topic of the thread is being derailed, which is disappointing because the specific topic of discussion requested was not about how we get to the point of requesting a replacement, but, once we got to that point, how should things proceed.

Most commenters are still debating the merits of returns, what constitutes a valid return, etc., despite that not being questioned, as there is too much judgment involved.

>6 AMindForeverVoyaging: That was very nice of you, good call.

>7 ubiquitousuk: You make an excellent point. Who is this suggestion designed to protect? Clearly the FS is fine with the status quo. The question/discussion was prompted by a post in the FS BST group where a blemish the size of a newborn's little finger nail prompted a customer to request a replacement, and they were selling the book that was so damaged and they were so unhappy with for 90% of the list price.

I invite commenters to stick to the topic of discussion, if I may: should the FS require some small mark be made to damaged/dinged books before a replacement is sent out, in order to indicate these books were damaged in such a way they required replacement.

I, for one, do not think that FS should ask us to mark the books. I have loved books since i can remember. Even when my books were for less than €1, i have kept them in the best way i can. Marking an FS book or tearing a page off or any such horrible thing is just something i couldn't do. I would rather stay stuck with the damaged book. And i am sure that that is the case with quite a few book lovers.

It has already been mentioned in the thread that FS is okay with the status quo, so why is everybody so keen on changing it. Let dishonorable people do as they please. When i come across any listing with an FS book, it's quite easy to see which one is damaged, because...well...they are damaged! Bumped corners, scratches, etc. make it obvious that the person is selling a replaced copy. And honestly, i don't care. I have rarely seen them go for more than what FS sells them for. If some other chap is able to save some on the price and the shipping (and now customs!), then let them. As for the person who is selling it, again...let them. That is on them. How many people are we going to stop from selling FS books? What about sellers who bulk buy books which are on sale or the ones on last chance lists and then sell them for exorbitant amounts? Should we also somehow make FS stop them from doing that? That is the reason that FS took out something like the Dune LE. Because people keep buying these and selling them for 3-4 times the original price. These are the things that directly affect us as customers. However, not much can (or should) do.

FS is aware of what people are up to and obviously have found it to be more sensible to replace the books rather than ask for returns. Something i completely agree with.

I have to add here that the only reason why i trust them is because of this policy and the wonderful customer care that they provide. Even now, after Brexit, i have chosen to get a bunch of books from them, not just because i am addicted, but because i want them to succeed. I could have gotten the books delivered to a friend in the UK and saved some money, but instead i let them ship it to me, because i know that i can check for damage and ask for a replacement (didn't have to, there was a small bump on Kavalier and Clay slipcase, but not substantial enough for a replacement. Thank God!).

At the end of the day, it is not something that bothers me at all. Plus, just like people are ready to ignore a bumped corner, they will also ignore the black mark and buy the book because it is at a discount.

I could "mark" a book in Photoshop in a few seconds. The only real way for a publisher to know they're not getting conned is by asking for the copy back. In the Czech Rep., all of them do because honestly, most people would be willing to slightly damage a book just to end up with two copies. Most people also don't really care about owning damaged books for some reason so it would be a huge problem for publishers.

FS books are quite pricey and getting more so, and the pricier the book the more demanding I am of the quality. I asked for 3 replacements last year from 3 different British book sellers (one being FS) and all 3 told me to keep the damaged copy, sending me a new one. I gave the FS one to my brother but the other two books are about art and I'm starting to get annoyed to have to deal with this as I don't know anyone who'd want them. I'd prefer the sellers just took them back, ideally with some automated system like Zalando has, where I could just put it back in the same box, attach an enclosed sticker on and bring it to the post office charge free. This way I have to either accept I am paying for something that looks used before I even got to touch it, or go through the hassle of having to put up an ad and hoping someone might want it.

Ironically, I also received a damaged copy of a hardback on Wes Anderson by a Czech seller and that one was the worst off - the top of the spine completely split in two places. The kind of damage that makes the book suitable only for a dumpster. And they demanded the book to be returned in order to replace it...

I do like the idea of shipping vouchers as recompense for damaged books in which the damage is minimal but obvious and the customer isn't absolutely in need of a complete replacement. That seems pretty fair to both parties.

I still think FS should order extra slipcases or have a line open with their various binders to have more created on demand for replacement purposes. In my experience, and I have to assume the same for many other people, too, that most of the damaged delivery incidents are limited to slipcase damage. Let's not forget that the intent of slipcase is to protect the book while on a shelf and from normal handling of the book (i.e., in its owners possession), not from shipping mishaps! Instead of sending out completely costly, new-in-shrinkwrap books for a case of simple slipcase damage, I would so much prefer to see Folio send out replacement slipcases. Some of them are so generic and without specific artistry that they are interchangeable between books. For my taste, even a non-original color would be fine (as long as it isn't too much of an eyesore mismatch of colors, of course).

>18 treereader: The problem with replacement slipcases is warehousing costs. LoA does have extra slipcases on hand, but at least all their slipcases are the same height and of single design and color. FS would have to store a few hundred distinct SKUs of relatively low quantities - waaay too expensive for them.

>15 U_238: I feel the topic of the thread is being derailed, which is disappointing because the specific topic of discussion requested was not about how we get to the point of requesting a replacement, but, once we got to that point, how should things proceed.

I don't feel it's derailing in any shape or form, and I'm not sure how it's possible to discuss a solution to a problem without discussing the actual problem. Not sure it's wise treating symptoms without ever thinking of the actual root cause(s).

So abuse of the current system is there. I think it can be broken down into 2 scenarios:
1) People looking to abuse the system. They would nitpick for the slightest excuse, like a little bump to the back corner of a slipcase, to get their book essentially for free (get a replacement and sell the other book as new).
2) People who nitpick by nature. They want perfection, and even most insignificant blemish, such as the aforementioned little bump to a slipcase corner, will bother them and they will request a replacement.

Asking to mark, damage, or return a book will not solve #2. However ridiculous and unreasonable a complaint might seem to you or me, these people are not actively looking to profit, they are looking for a replacement.

Requiring marking or more drastic measures like cutting out a title page should cut down #1. Not sure what the ratio between #1 and #2 is, so not sure how much it would help. But just thinking about damaging books makes me shudder... I don't think I'd be able to require that if I were calling shots.

>7 ubiquitousuk: Besides them, I'm not sure who is supposed be be harmed by the practice of reselling damaged copies....So, again, the only ones harmed seem to be Folio...

If no questions asked, keep-the-old-copy-and-we-send-you-a-new-one policy adds to their costs significantly, then all of us are affected and harmed, as losses are necessarily countered with increasing product and/or shipping prices...

I’m a ‘no’ on this too. Too distressing for me to mark/damage a book on purpose. If FS required it then I would think twice about claiming for a damaged copy, but it would also give me more anxiety buying from FS in case it was damaged, something that they wouldn’t want. So I’m with >16 sekhmet0108:, let dishonourable people do as they please. I’m a happy customer who has once had a damaged book replaced without having to deface it in any way, and I have no anxiety about buying from them again...

They could simply ask you to tear a page out, send them a clear photo of the removed page (which would be difficult to photoshop), then send a replacement. It does hurt, deciding which page to remove (had to do that once in the olden days). Especially if the "damage" is just a ding to a corner of a slipcase.

>21 overthemoon: That seems a reasonable solution. If you just remove the title or half-title page of a damaged book, it remains perfectly readable, just not as valuable or collectable. Yes, you're 'damaging' a book, but only one which is already allegedly damaged; most importantly, you protect Folio by significantly reducing the incentive for dishonesty.

I've not requested a replacement book for many years, but back in the olden days we Australians had to send the book back to their Australian branch before a replacement would be made. Must have been something to do with our convict past.

If the book is in such condition as to warrant a completely free replacement, I'm not sure why there is distress over a little dot on the bottom of the page block? It seems a lot less extreme than tearing a page out.

But after further thought, I disagree there is no benefit to the FS by requesting this. Here's why.

Certain customers I think delight in having a book show up dinged, as it presents an opportunity to profit off that misfortune. Sell the dinged book, suddenly there's a huge discount on your purchase.

Heck, even sell the brand new replacement book and keep the book with the dinged slipcase! You'd practically be getting it for free. I wouldn't be surprised if many second-hand sales of books still in stock match this latter scenario.

By ensuring any attempts to profit off these dinged books are made that much harder/more apparent (by having some kind of mark), it might actually discourage people from so wantonly requesting replacement copies. This would benefit the FS.

The fact is the FS also explicitly requests customers to donate these books or give them away to family, so selling them are in clear contravention of the agreement.

This discussion is likely just a thought exercise, as the FS seems happy with the status quo; as someone else pointed out, they could just ensure their books are packed properly and avoid all this.

I don’t understand why they don’t have some other option besides replacing the book. I’ve heard many people suggest a possible discount code for the next purchase. This seems very reasonable and more cost-effective for them. Even if it’s just a $10 off your next order code or something like that. They could do like $20 off if it was a more valuable book. I think a lot of people would rather accept this than have Folio Society have to pay postage again and completely replace small damage with a new book. Even a free shipping code on your next order like someone mentioned would be a good option.

Personally, I do want an undamaged copy, not a discount. That's what I paid for. And no, I do not want to damage the poor thing even more by adding lines or tearing out pages in order to get that undamaged replacement. If I could return it at no expense to me, that would be fine with me, but that clearly doesn't pay off for FS under the current conditions. And all that's coming from someone who would just love to get undamaged books in the first place because I don't want to profit from the kind of thing described above. If I even could, I was once unlucky enough to get a damaged book that couldn't be replaced with an undamaged copy, only with one that wasn't as badly off because it was an edition that sold out. And I returned the first one, too. So if the mole is reading this: Please change the packaging policy, not the replacement policy. I want to feel sure that I will get a mint copy in the end, but would prefer to get it right away due to proper packaging and a decent shipping company, too. Since the change in packaging and shipping companies, half my deliveries were damaged one way or another. That just wasn't an issue before.

>26 SF-72:

Yup. What the heck do I want with a $10 coupon for my next purchase when I'm not even be satisfied with the previous order...

In my case, most, if not all, of the several replacements I've requested over thirty years or so have been as a result of production faults, not damage in transit, eg. smudged type, crumpled or blank pages, a squashed insect between pages, cloth fraying where it adjoins leather, binding upside down, signatures misplaced, etc. I always send FS a photo of the fault, showing clearly what it is and I've never been required to return a book - rarely even an LE. In the latter case, I've usually been requested to return the limitation page, which I have cut out as neatly as possible. I usually give such copies to charity shops, carefully pointing out the issues and assuming they will also inform prospective purchasers if it's not obvious.

>21 overthemoon:

You know, that sounds like the start of a really good description of how to decide when a book is "damaged enough to warrant a replacement": if ripping a page out is a worse damage than the original complaint, then perhaps the original complaint isn't that bad, and if ripping the page out doesn't make the book much worse than the original complaint, then it's an easy claim.

...well, I just wrote a bunch of other thoughts continuing this idea but erased them because it naturally ran into the same two roadblocks regarding any potential solutions and explanations of why things are the way they are:

We don't have any idea of the depth or breadth of the types of issues (damage or otherwise) that could generate a claim or prompt a replacement (or a denial). Sure, we've each experienced a damage event (or a few) but collectively, we still haven't even developed a histogram of our own event types and their frequencies. Moreover, we could develop an incomplete view and make better speculations but I've seen some suggestions on LT that the FSD group still only represents about 10-15% of Folio's total customer base.

With a comprehensive set of numbers, anyone could do the math and figure out the risks and costs involved with the current model and any potential replacement model. But this brings us into a second roadblock: What is Folio's brand worth (due to its association with high quality books) and what would a change in the replacement policy do to affect it? My unqualified gut instinct tells me that, even with a bunch of damaged (and warranty-replaced to the original customer) books running around the secondary market, the overall quality level of Folio's books is not significantly lowered and that Folio's brand is not significantly impacted because of it. Moreover, if Folio implemented stricter requirements for obtaining warranty replacements (i.e., requiring additional, targeted damage), the improvement to its brand wouldn't increase significantly. Well, perhaps only in this group's eyes...but is that enough?

>27 adriano77: I did not say this should replace the current policy. I said it should be an option. Obviously you won’t pick to take a $10, $20, or free shipping code but then again maybe you, SF, and I’m sure many others aren’t the types that ask for a replacement unless it’s a really badly damaged book (I honestly don’t know how picky you are). All I know is by watching eBay alone I can see a lot, and I mean a LOT of people screw the system that’s in place. I know I’d take a $10 code for a slip case bang instead of having them replace the whole darn book, which will cause them to lose money, and prices to continue to rise higher and higher. Then again, I’m not someone who’ll ask for a return if it’s just slipcase damage unless it’s really bad.

I just think it’s a very easy option to implement. Many successful companies offer solutions that are very similar to this idea. Actually, the most successful company in the world does. I want to see Folio be successful and customers be happy when these issues pop up.

This is a great thread to test out how we feel about the Folio Society. After thirty years I have never returned a book over a ding. Those are my standards. Yours may well be different. I'll also pick bruised produce if I am cooking that day.

I have received one replacement shipment after the first one vanished. I received the replacement package, and then the original a day later.

I did sell the duplicates, but reinvested my 'dividends' in additional Folio purchases.

Whatever you are comfortable with.

I think that with the recent comments, we are once again discussing what should qualify for a return and what shouldn't.

The question should not be about what constitutes a tolerable amount of damage, it should rather be about why the customers should have to put up with any damage at all. Again and again this boils down to everyone having different expectations regarding the products they purchase.

Maybe, for some, a couple of dings are perfectly okay, but not for others. And being "picky" is not really a bad thing, no matter to which degree. I received a copy of Lord of the Flies with scrapes on the black silhouette with the red showing through at various places. Considering that i had placed a second order within that month for the sole purpose of getting that book, i was even more "picky" than usual. I sent them pics, but sadly the books were sold out, so i got a refund. Now whenever i take out that book, i see the faults and feel a tad dissatisfied. This was the only damaged book which was not caused by improper packaging.

For the price that FS costs, i am going to be highly critical. I am not a rich person and all my expenditure on FS has been pure indulgence and extravagance on my part. Hence, i want a book which is in pristine condition and nothing makes me feel more relieved than to check all the books in my box and see them be in an immaculate, undamaged condition.

Like SF stated, the packing seems to me to be a bigger issue by far. If they ensured that some of the heavier books and sets have an extra layers of packing material around them, it would be a big help. A lot of the eBay listings have these bumbs and scrapes. Again, packing them properly will reduce such incidents.

As for them changing the return policy, that wouldn't be a great idea. I have recommended FS to friends and family and the best thing i can add is that FS has a stellar customer service. Since none of these people are in the UK, it has helped assuage some of their concerns. Thankfully, none of them have received damaged books and they too love FS now!

With the way Folio Society's social media presence and popularity are growing, they will end up having many more customers in many different countries. A comfortable replacement policy is a must. But they can add 15% off or 10 bucks off or something as an option for those who don't wish for a replacement.

>31 kcshankd: Honestly, i find it to be quite alright if you sold your damaged copy. Most probably the buyer got something for a bit cheap, you got a bit of "dividends" and ended up spending it on FS again. Everybody's happy!