Book Discussion: Elantris Conclusion! Chapter 31 - The End

I still have 40+ pages to finish this morning, if my kids and pets will let me.

I am loving this book. Be back soon!

My Goodness, I don't know what to say now that the time is here. How did you all feel about the fact that Sarene was considered married even tho Raoden died? Does it sound a bit like the victorian system of widows wearing black forever?

OK, I'll start with saying I really liked the book.

But when I thought about it afterwards I felt that there was similarities between the religious situation in the book and the current fundamentalistic trend where everyone is holier and better than the next guy, whichever religion or sect you belong to. Those of you don't interested in this - close your eyes and skip/forget this post; I mean no offense to no one. OK? And I don't mean to start a debate on religion (the one we had was quite enough?).

I only want to ask Brandon if these similarities are coincidental or not. So - are they? I now know it was written before 9/11, but was this theme something you thought about while writing?

On another note altogether - I rarely cry out or react spontaneusly with sounds when reading; when Galladon dropped Raoden in the pool was a rare exception - I said "NO". No exclamation marks or such, only as a flat sound.

And even if I viewed Dilaf as some kind of vile creature I wasn't prepared for him being a demon from Dakhor! Very nice twist, I thought. I wasn't convinced by the sudden appearence of a Jaddeth way to harness the Dor, though. It came too sudden, and felt to much as a way to solve a problem with the plotline.

#2 - Off to fetch a book packet, but before that; I thought it was believable: if a marriage is political or a part of an agreement over something, then it is appropriate that it should be considered valid even if one part died before the actual sealing of the pact.
I have a feeling a few business contracts are made up this way - no marriages involved, of course, but sometimes employees are forced to stay on with the new owners if they want to or not, etc...

Will Brandon now tell us about the flaw in the end that he perceives in his own book?

Yes, I'm VERY curious too!!! Please?

The thing that struck me as a flaw is that the Aons are supposed to get weaker the farther you go from Elantris, but the Seons seem to be the same wherever. Why aren't they affected by proximity to Elantris?

Like Busifer, I liked the religious themes in the book, especially Hrathen's moral dilemma.

The pool thing reminded me of the Dominion on Star Trek. I wasn't sure why the Elantrians would need something like this lake, if their lives were so perfect. Although Galladon hints that some of that might have been legend, not reality.

I really liked this book too, and I'm quite curious to hear about the flaw. I did try to think of what it could be and pretty much failed.

I do have to say I didn't really understand Adien. He seems to make no sense, and I don't know why he was made an Elantrian at the end. That was the only thing I actually wondered about, it seems like a convenient way to get Raoden to Teod.

Whee, no more worrying about spoilers!

It's been a couple of days now since I finished the book, and I can't get it out of my head. I miss everyone. Sequel? Please? It certainly seems like Brandon's left the possibility open; there are a lot of interesting things here that could be expanded upon further.

While I loved the book and found myself reading at breakneck speed, I find that I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around just why I enjoyed it so much. A lot of it was definitely the characters, but I find that the books I enjoy the most usually have some wider themes that I also respond to... and I'm having a bit of trouble picking them out here. I know I definitely responded to the message of hope that Raoden brought to Elantris - the way that he stepped in and helped the other Elantrians realize that their half-life didn't have to be bad, despite all the difficulties they faced. I interpreted that as a message of social change and self-acceptance, and I love it when books explore those themes.

I think it's the religious themes that I'm tripping on here. I can recognize them, but for some reason I can't quite feel them. I think this may be because I didn't react as strong to Hrathen as to the other characters. I mentioned in another thread that I felt an intellectual connection with him rather than an emotional connection; I found him very interesting, but I wasn't passionate about him. So much of his story seemed to be tied up with his own religious views and his struggles with his faith. I have the feeling I might appreciate it a little more the next time I read the book, once I know what's coming.

A couple of other thoughts:

I was inordinately pleased with myself for figuring out the chasm's place in things. As soon as they realized that all the Aons were reflections of the land, I wanted to reach into the book, shake Raoden, and scream, "You have to add the chasm! Add the chasm!" (Since this wasn't possible, I settled for shaking the book and thinking at it very hard). I didn't recognize Elantris and the four cities as an Aon ahead of time, though. I thought that was quite clever.

I was also rather pleased that I guessed what was up with Kiin. I wish we'd heard a little more about it, though, after the initial revelation.

#7 - we never find out just how Seons are made, so maybe they're not as connected to Elantris as everyone thinks? I would've liked some more information on them too, and a greater explanation of how they work.

#9 - I thought that Adien was autistic, and that he resorted to his numbers to help stave off the pain. We find out that he's actually been an Elantrian for about five years, but his family covered it up by keeping him at home and having him use makeup and such.

Yes, a book about Uncle's Kiin's exploits would be cool. I knew he wasn't what he seemed but forgot all about that pirate. And I love pirates!

I LOVED the "feng shui-yness" of the AonDor. I did NOT see that coming and it was cool, especially since it was right there in the map for all to see.

I loved Elantris, I knew (oh gosh maybe I'd better not say in case anyone hasn't got to the end yet!) but my expectations were fulfilled, although not in the way I had expected!
I would cringe every time the slime in Elantris was mentioned.
I thought maybe it could have gone into the psyche of the Heods more, made it a bit darker in places. Once or twice, I felt that Brandon gave his characters a 'quick fix' which seemed unrealistic. But I would be happy to recommend it, in fact, I am going to buy a copy to send to my mother!

#10 - Like you, xicanti, I got frustrated when Raoden couldn't figure out the chasm thing, and I had to read on to see if he ever figured it out ;-)

11 - Thanks, I totally forgot the explanation. *blushes* I still think it's a bit too convenient, but maybe I'm just being critical.

I really enjoyed it. I loved the fact that Hrathen sacrificed himself to do the honorable thing. :o)

The only flaw I could think of was that if the power of the Dor was strongest in Arelon, how the devil were the Dakhor able to tap into it all the way over in Fjorden? Did that country have it's own version of the Dor? If so, then they shouldn't have been able to use it it Arelon.

#16 Maybe they are using different Aons that correspond to the local geography. Or some other system. I think there were hints that there were all kinds of ways into using "the force" like the martial arts thing (whatever it was called).

#17 - Yes, understand there were different variations, but wouldn't they all be location specific/centric?

#18 I guess we need Brandon at this point. We could go on all day if he weren't around to ask!

#18 - maybe their version was more atuned to their bodies and the strange modifications they had?

#19 -LOL, too true! And I'm not even sure I know what I'm talking about. The truth is I got so sucked into the ending that I was probably reading faster than I should have been, and thus missing crucial info.

I was probably reading faster than I should have been, and thus missing crucial info.

I know I was! Looking forward to re-reading this one.

I did think Adien was more for convenience. Rather the same as Centaurs happening to show up, and then Grawp happening to scare off the Centaurs, and then Thestrals suddenly appearing.... Author's convenience, but I still love the book.

#10, xicanti -- I was so proud of myself for thinking of the chasm as well, since I'm usually too concentrated on reading more to analyze what's already been presented. :)

I congratulate anyone who figured out the chasm before the pool scene. Kudos!

As for Adien, you all should really read Brandon's annotations on his website. He basically admits that he put Adien in the story just for that moment.

In general I'd say that the conclusion was a little too drawn out, with suddenly appearing details about how it all worked (like the Aons weakening, etc.). I still found the story exciting, the characters compelling, and I liked the mechanism of AonDor, so I forgave Brandon those little deux ex machinas.

Yes, I forgave quickly, littlegeek. Though I also agree with you that there were a lot of suddenly appearing details.

Anyone else feel like Brandon must have more life outside of LT than some of us (myself included)? ;)

I'm learning how to take notes better too. I had to return Elantris to the library, so I don't remember now what some of my notes refer to.

Ch. 32 - I wrote, a sudden and revolting turn of events. I think that refers to the human sacrifice. I did not see that coming, was jarred by it, but in hindsight could accept it. The king's irreverence of human life and devaluation of his subjects was evidence of something deeply wrong I suppose.

Ch. 40 - Sarene's experience as an "Elantrian" reminded me of the Biblical story of Josesph. He told his brothers (paraphrased), "What you meant for evil, God used for good." Not only was Sarene saved from a wrong marriage, she also met and fell in love with her husband. :)

Ch. 57 - I knew the chasm played into the Reaod (right word?), but I couldn't figure out what the other part was, why they didn't get their true life, I did think it had something to do with the low walls, but was off base in the end.

Ch. 58 - AAACK! I had Dilaf pegged as an annoying mental dude, but not that! My first thought was that only great fear can beget great hatred. What did he fear? That Jaddeth was not truly supreme? I was not satisfied or completely clear about his connection to Galladon. Was he his father? Did Galladon ever know?

Ch. 62 - I thought the maudlin love that Hrathen had here for Sarene was the mistake. It was quite sufficient for me that a man of deep convictions would change as he saw the error of his convictions. I liked Hrathen all the way through and always thought he would get there in the end, not through love of a woman, but through love of the truth.

Ch. 63 - Mildly disappointed, but can resolve it by the fantasy of the book. So Dor is energy-unintelligent-usable by anyone for good or evil, provided they can figure out how to access it. Perhaps just a natural, created :) phenomenon. What I do like, is the open nature of the ending. It allows for each reader to reach for the conclusions which he/she prefers. I prefer a Creator, I can believe it is so. Some may prefer a collective "energy," they could see that here. Some may prefer an "engine," or "machine," again, they could interpret it so.

Thank you for the great story Brandon!

MrsLee, I totally agree about Ch. 62. Unnecessary.

I was just wondering why the chasm line had to be connected to Kae? Why not inside of Elantris itself where it would be part of the Aon? If the chasm affected AonDor completely why not have it be part of THE Aon and thus part of all Aons?

I think the Dor is behind ALL of the land (the entire universe) (remember what Galladon said that the Dor is what makes everything happen not just the magic of Elantris. I think that the different races found different ways to use the Dor and the Aonic race connected to the land itself and the Dor within it, while perhaps the other races connect to the Dor through something else.

About Seons, I don't think they are normal Elantrian magic but somehow a stronger magic (Remember Raoden and Galladon did not find anything about Seons in the books, even though they had access to the more private libraries in Elantris), perhaps they are a more pure form of the Dor magic that does not really have a connection to the land, or a much weaker connection in that the land does not effect them accept through their masters.

#'s 25 & 26 - that sat wrong with me, too. It kind of came out of nowhere, and it didn't really feel like it fit with his character.

> 25 Mrs Lee

What do you mean by connection of Dilaf to Galladon?

>#29 There's a part of the book where Galladon is revealing to Raoden that his father had been an Elantrian and that he'd lived in the city with him. He tells a story about how a healer had drawn a healing Aon incorrectly and instead of healing the woman it put her in terrible agony, and she ended up jumping off the walls of Elantris to commit suicide.

Later on, we find out that she was Dilaf's wife (woman? girlfriend?) and that's why he hates Elantrians so much.

Brandon never connected the two. Galladon and Dilaf didn't seem to know that each had part of the same story.

Well, all I can say is: Please tell me there will be a sequel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Responses to this thread coming! I'm working on the middle thread right now. Once I get through it, I'll get to this one. Sorry for the delay!

Wonderful book!! I just finished Elantris and I'm ready to read more!

#25,26,28 - My opinion concerning Chapter 62 and Hrathen's love for Sarene is different. I think it fit very well with his character. He had a great deal of respect for Sarene early on. As that respect grew so did his feelings for her.

Thanks, Brandon, for such a great story!

I recommended the book over at my place.

I enjoyed it very much. Enough magic for wonderment but not so much that the reader says knowingly, "Ah, the old Deus ex Machina ploy."

I'm a sucker for redemption, so Hrathen's turnabout was ok with me.

Well, I stayed up all night and finished it.

#16 Clamairy - I view the "power of the Dor" like magma. And, there are hot spots around the globe, just like there are hot-spots for magma (volcanos) - but perhaps not so many hot spots for the Dor. So to me, Arelon is like Kilauea volcano in Hawaii - a continually, nice and strong hot spot.

Other hot spots on the globe, once discovered, can be exploited.

It may be that it's more like a series of oil fields, which can allow for multiple distinct hot spots, each someone varied as to type of 'crude' (requiring different mechanisms to exploit.) It will be interesting to see what Brandon says about this.

Of course, once explained in any manner, like "the Force" in Star Wars - it could become very silly. So it might be best to not give the details.

As to the book itself - I agree with MrsLee about Hrathen - he was out to find the truth, and that is what motivated him. He fell in love along the way, but thinking that was the motivator is less satisfying (only because it is so common.) But I share GeorgiaDawn's sentiment about Hrathen too.

I liked the book. The system of magic was a nice variant from most other 'land'-based magic-systems I've seen... I agree the characters (other than Hrathen) weren't especially compelling, but I think that's the way it is supposed to be in this novel. This is a novel about discovery of some of the answers to deep mysteries, and that's the transformation: understanding of the world, and how that deeper understanding changes how people relate to the world, vs. understanding of inner character. It also is a book about how different people, different personalities - relate and react to the same great events, and only with a small # of characters, is it required to see how those events change them.

Yes, it is completely set up for a sequel. :D All those new "Hmm..." thoughts in the last chapter...

Just random thoughts. Excuse the incoherency as I am rather loopy right now.

8)

lol, JBP, love the loopy stare.

I agree about the characters (in #35). The book wasn't about the people coming to some revelation and changing in some way. It was more about the world than the people in it--learning the "deeper mysteries," as you so nicely put it.

Regarding my comment above about Chapter 58, Galladon and Dilaf. Oops. I must have been reading too fast. My daughter straightened me out, Galladon was the son of an Elantrian, Raoden was reading the story that related to Dilaf.

My daughter enjoyed this very much as well, we are now waiting for the sequel which was carefully set up. ;)

Is there going to be a sequel for Elantris? As soon as I found out about the Fjordens using the Dor I was like, "Uh-oh. Raoden's not off the hook yet." I actually really liked Adien's (spelling?) exposure as an Elantrian. At the end of the book I KNEW something was going to happen with him. So I was overjoyed with his conclusion. I finished this at school a couple hours ago and there were lots of exclamations during my reading. At the point when the guy drives a sword through Raoden's gut and he turns into a Hoed there was a loud gasp and angry muttering. I thought he was a goner for sure. I also loved how Hrathen made the decision to save Raoden and Sarene from Dilaf. He turned out to be an okay type of guy :)
Amazing book-this is the best thing I've read so far all year. Excellent work, Brandon!

I see the Dor as a force or tool that can be used for good or ill. AonDor is tied to Arelon right down to the major physical features, so it would make sense that the farther one is away from the 'source' the less effective the magic would be, like having a long firehose to deliever the water. The Fjorden priests have a less powerful way of accessing the Dor but it was infused in thier bodies and was not bound to a location. Shuden was able to tap in through meditaion and once agian is not location specific.

I had to do a lot of stop and go reading with this book so some of the things that probably should have jumped out at me, like the chasm needing to be added, completely went over my head until Raoden made it obvious.

Adien was hinted at as a key but he seemed almost incidental in the end.

Dilaf, I was expecting trouble from this one but so quickly transforming into a demon, and an incredably powerful one at that, almost felt like Brandon needed an antagonist powerful enough to warrent a show of force from the healed Elantrians.

Hrathen, seemed to follow charactor right up until the end, but his 'love' of Sarene could have just as easily been deep respect.

It's kind of weird, on one hand the end seemed kind of rushed, explaining away things (or skipping it) and at the same time to drag on and on, like the slaughter of Arelon and the attempted assassination of Sarene's father.

Overall an enjoyable book, and I will most likely continue reading Brandon's books. Keep up the good work Brandon, and thanks for giving us some of your time on the boards.

First off, all, thanks for being patient with me on these threads! They take a little more time for me to answer than regular, shoot the breeze threads, but I enjoy them. I’ve been a little busy wrapping up a book this week, but I haven’t forgotten you! I hope these responses don’t come too late.

#3: As you noted, I’ve mentioned that the book wasn’t really a reaction to any specific religious news. However, it WAS a reaction to general feelings of religion.

While I was serving a mission for my church in Korea, I happened across a place where a Buddhist monk was kneeling on the ground begging. This is a very time-honored tradition for the monks, and has to do with their vows of poverty. (Buddha required himself to beg in order to get some of his meals.)

The monk was singing quietly to himself, bowing to those who passed him. He was calm, serene, and very respectful. And picketing around him were a group of Christians from a faith other than my own, bearing signs that read “BUDDHISM IS HELL” in big letters in Korean. (Which translates better in Korean to mean a more direct “Buddhists will go to Hell” the way it was written.)

This BOTHERED me. There we were, three separate groups from three separate religions, each seeking to influence the people. Yet, what were our goals, and what influence were we having? What were our examples teaching? Here were people who were claiming to speak for the very person I worship, and yet their method of doing so was to tear another person down with the same ferocity as a playground bully?

This is the sort of thing that I wanted to deal with, if not explicitly, then at least thematically. I believe it’s possible to believe, and even want to share those beliefs with others, without tearing others down. People who chose the opposite scare me a great deal (and there are members of my own faith who are like that--I think you’ll find them in whatever creed, religion, or argument you happen upon.) So, Hrathen’s character was in part an exploration what that kind of practice can do to a person from the inside.

p.s. Personal rant time. Beware of rantage! However, in my opinion, any person who dedicates their life so wholly service like a lot of the Buddhist monks I met is heading straight for heaven double-time, and those protesters can go shove their signs some place unpleasant. If they want to convert people, they should spend their time talking about the inspiring things they believe, not standing around implying that what Christ wants is for people to pick on the humble and submissive.

applause! Everyone should read this Brandon! My hubby was stationed all over Japan and the far east in the Navy. He met many wonderful people of the eastern religons and altho he is Christian he believes that many of these people will join us in heavenly bliss, religion is internal. and no one can know where or how you are going to end up except god.

First of all I want to thank you for taking time to answer. There has been some general nagging going on, but I assure you that it's the friendly kind :-)

I agree wholesale that people truly out to convert should talk about the inspiring things they believe in; I also think it's very... contrary? to what most creeds officially says they are standing for. Yet rather a lot of people seems to drift towards different religions (observe that I include all "-isms" in this) because they offer the possibility of a tribal belonging which has nothing to do with belief and everything to do with alienation. And as different creeds compete with each other it becomes essential to identify the enemy within, to purge the ranks from advocates of the devil...

I'll add that although I am an atheist of the unconvertable kind I too think religion is (or should be) internal. Personal rant warning here, too -

I've met many vengeful and hatedriven people who confess to some christian sect - I think the worst are a couple of pentecostals who seems to think it's OK to rip money off unbelievers as they're sure to go to hell anyway (not to mention the siblings of my husbands mother /lutherans/ who detest her because they feel that her mental illness is embarrassing to them /they fail to help her because they feel their association with her is some kind of negative "wave"/punishment - only time I've felt like sending people straight to a very burning hell indeed.../).

Don't be too naïve about eastern religions, though. I have to close my eyes when I see how animals gets treated in say Thailand, or how poor or sick people /by some/ are viewed/treated as "sinners" only getting what they deserve.

good comments busifer!

The reason so many of us see so many bad Christians around us is because most of us have lots of Christians around us.

There are good and bad humans. I have never found a religion to make people better - or worse. I have just found it to give them a self-serving reason to be worse, or a self-effacing reason to be better. But what they choose, they'd choose no matter what religion they happened to pick.

Thanks for the nice reply, Brandon.

#45 - I agree fully!

#40, Bravo, Brandon, thanks for sharing that. Those explorations were my favorite part of the book, and with your talents, I hope you'll revisit these themes in other works in the future. You obviously have good and thoughtful things to say about them!

#40 Brandon,
One of my English students is a Carmelite monk from India, which is a meditative order. In India, he tells me, his order are open to all forms of meditation, including Bhuddist meditation and yoga to communicate with God. He always tells me that the world could learn alot from India, with its variety and mixes of faiths all living together making the best of things. It's not a perfect world by any means, and there are sometimes problems between the religions, but from what he says, the orders in India work more together and are more open to each others practices than in other places in the world. He's in Switzerland now opening up an inter-religious center for different faiths to meet and discuss. In my opinion, this is what belief should be about...lets see what we all have in common and learn from each other!

#5 (About flaws I see in the book.)

There are several flaws in the book. One of them has to do with the positioning of the landscape, the cities, and Aon Rao. I had it all in my mind, but then sold the book four years later. That meant getting someone to do a map. And, unfortunately, the map never quite fit with what I’d imagined--mostly, I think, because I hadn’t done enough work sketching everything out myself.

The flaw comes if one tries to actually draw Aon Aon over the map, with the chasm, then apply that to Elantris and the cities. If you compare that to the scene where Raoden runs down the side of the mountain and draws, you’ll find that he’s putting the Chasm Line in the WRONG place. It can’t intersect the wall of Kae, it has to intersect the wall of the destroyed city to the south of Elantris.

It’s subtle, but it bothers me, now that I’m aware of it. I tried to patch the hole in the last draft for the copyedit, but I didn’t do a good enough job, in my opinion. It’s a flaw in the text.

Another is one, I believe, has been mentioned in this thread, and that’s the attraction Hrathen feels for Sarene. This was something I’d originally planned to be a character aspect of his. However, as writing the book, it just didn’t fit with his personality. I changed it while writing to be more of a professional respect, cutting out the sub-plot of him falling in love with her. It was okay in theory, but in practice, it was unnecessary and melodramatic.

However, I think that in the last few chapters (what actually made it into the book is still vague to me, after twelve drafts) I give some hints that he might have fallen in love with her. As I consider it now, this is more a reflection of my original intentions, and not who the character actually was. I would have, then, cut this.

There are others, but those two are the ones that I’d change first if I had a ‘do over.’

#7: I intentionally left out a lot of information about the Seons and the way their magic works. This was mostly for my own piece of mind. In intended a sequel to deal a lot with these aspects, and didn’t want to lock myself into anything firm while writing ELANTRIS, since Seons weren’t a focus.

It is a flaw not in the book, in my opinion, but in me not being able to know when (or if) I’d write a sequel, and wanting to give myself flexibility should I come back to the world a decade later. I’d hate to feel trapped by something set in stone years before. Therefore, a lot of the powers and thoughts about Seons are intentionally vague.

#9: The same, actually, goes for Adien. He’s a seed for a future novel. I knew when writing ELANTRIS that the three main characters were going to pretty much be done with their personal conflicts by the end of the book. I wanted to give myself a new, potentially interesting hero whom I could deal with in a sequel.

Adien grew out of that. The autistic savant who suddenly got healed, but retained all of his savant abilities, was something that really appealed to me. A character who could remember what it was like to disconnect with the rest of humankind, then suddenly become one of them. . .well, I figured it would give some interesting conflicts. So, if Aiden bothers you, I apologize.

#10: and, since we’re on the topic of the sequel, here’s the official statement from my FAQ:

”One of the things I really wanted to do with ELANTRIS was make it a stand alone. I think that the fantasy field is too cluttered with series that should have ended years ago, and I--personally--am tired of waiting for years between books in my favorite series. So, when people asked me if there would be a sequel, I used to respond “Maybe.”

However, more and more, I’m feeling that someday I will write a sequel to ELANTRIS. A lot of people seem to want one, and there is a lot of the story that I’ve left untold--the origin of the Seons, the reason that the Dor and the landscapes are linked, the Fjordell magic. Doing book tours and reading emails from readers has reminded me of all the wonderful things I wanted to do with the world of Opelon.

So, the official word right now is yes: I will most likely be doing a sequel to ELANTRIS. I don't know WHEN I'll do one, but I eventually will.”

Now, the unofficial statement. I’ve begun a ‘notes file’ for ELANTRIS 2, and am picking at it, trying to decide what I want to do for a sequel. I will do one. However, the problem is, I’ve already got books for Tor scheduled through 2012 (!) They have purchased six books from me which aren’t even out yet, of which I’ve written three.

ELANTRIS 2 is on the docket, then, for 2013. That’s quite far off, and I worry it will be too long. I might try to sneak it in earlier, but it will depend on how easily the other books I write get done. Here is what it will be about, however: Kiin’s family, living in Fjordell 10 years after book one, collide with the Fjordell upper nobility and the skaze (think evil Seons--mentioned in the last few chapters of ELANTRIS.) It will include a Seon viewpoint, as well as Aiden and probably Kaise as main characters. I’m also thinking a couple Fjordel nobility as main characters.

(I’d want to keep the chapter triad format, but I’m not sure if I’ll be able to. Maybe six characters, paired, switching off or something.)

Oh I can't wait!

#10, #14:

Heh. You know, when you have characters figure things out is a very tough balance to walk. As a writer, I want a spectrum of puzzles in a book. Some readers LIKE to figure things out, others don’t even try. It’s hard to fool everyone all of the time, and it’s hard to balance the fact that some people NEVER figure things out. (I’ve had some readers who didn’t get the Chasm concept, even after I’d explained it in the book.)

And so, I hope this is a balance I figure out better and better as I write. My goal is to have the readers who look for puzzles to figure it out just a few pages ahead of the characters, and everyone else figure it out the moment I explain it, since I think that spectrum gets the best pay off. However, it’s really, really hard to judge what people will think is obvious and what they won’t.

#16: The Dor is everywhere. The runes used to tap the dor, then, can be based on a different landscapes based on where the person using the magic was born. Elantris was built as a power conduit to strengthen the magic of AonDor (not to be confused with the other magics that tap the Dor) and make it work at a greater distance, which is why the power grows much weaker for AonDor practitioners the further they get from Elantris.

The Dakhor runes are, indeed, specific to their own landscape--but they wouldn’t suffer as big of a decrease in power at a distance because they don’t have the influence of a city like Elantris boosting their power in the first place. AonDor is actually much stronger than the Dakhor magic because of Elantris, which is why the Elantrians (even at a distance, and even poorly trained) can tear holes in the Dakhor ranks.

Dilaf is a special case, since he has in a large number of his own ‘Elantris style’ boosting runes which apply only to himself.

Brandon, thanks for your answers. Sorry some of us, me especially, were so impatient! ;-)

If and when you do write a sequel, I'll be reading it. I really love the way you "do" your magic systems.

As a person who is always trying to figure things out, I loved that I only got a few things right in Elantris. I was oh so pleasantly surprised to be wrong or clueless on a number of things.

Mistborn is on my TBR.

#53 littlegeek - I picked up a copy of Mistborn today. I have a couple of books I need to get finished first.

#53 & 54: I think I did better with Mistborn on a lot of things. Little more depth to the characters, little more consistency to the magic, little less contrivance in the plot. Still, there are some who like Elantris better for the romantic and deep religious themes. I'd be curious to hear what you all think of them in comparison.

Well, I'm convinced. I added Mistborn to by B&N wishlist, so I won't forget to order it next time I get an online coupon.

Like my TBR shelves aren't already groaning. heh heh

#55 Brandon - I'm looking forward to reading Mistborn. I hope to begin it tomorrow. I am making myself finish two other books first.

#56 clam - I understand! I'm boxing up my books (along with everything else in the house) and my TBR stack is the last one that I'll put away.

Don't lose that box, GD! When is 'the move' happening?

clam - I know!! That would be a disaster!
The move will be dring the first weekend in June. I excited about the new house, but dreading the move. At least I can listen to alot of audiobooks while I'm packing.

Hmm, that would be risky for me. I'd forget what I packed where, because I'd be too busy listening.

ACK, we've hijacked the thread.

*blush*

I know....we do that from time to time.

OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT - Ladies and Gentlemen - the break is now over. Back to Elantris.

(sorry)

#55
Hey Brandon,
Finished Mistborn instead of working on a talk I have to give tomorrow. Oh well, I don't like being TOO well-rehearsed anyway -- keeps it fresh!

Elantris was a really fun read for me. Loved the concept; loved that the plot kept me turning the pages. But I like Mistborn more. Much more, actually. The characters are well developed and less perfect; the magic clever, original, and better described. The dialogue flows better. And, unlike so many series, the book was complete within itself even though there will be sequels! That's perfect -- the ending is satisfying but still leaves enough questions to keep me interested in the next book.

Thanks for the great read and I can't wait for the next one.

Brandon, I have another question, and excuse me if this is something you don't want to discuss, I understand.

Have you gotten any flack or pushback from your church about your treatment of religion in general in Elantris, or the fact that you have developed and explored a magical system? This isn't unheard of in our society, of course. You seem to have a great perspective on things, but I wonder if any in your community have taken issue with these explorations.

If don't want to talk about that stuff, I completely understand. I'm just grateful for the opportunity to talk with you about your work, thanks again for taking the time to share your thoughts!

#50
Wow, they're certainly keeping your schedule full! Although, 3 out of 6 already written sounds like a not too bad position to be in, I'd guess (I don't really have a frame of reference for how long a book can take to write... I suppose it's like asking "how long is a piece of string"?)

I've ordered Mistborn I'm just waiting for it to arrive, very much looking forward to getting into it.

I really enjoyed Elantris, it was a refreshing read for me, and I'd certainly be interested in a sequel, even more so now, knowing what you have in mind... if we have to wait 6 years, then so be it, we'll just have to make do with all of those other books you've got up your sleeve ;-)

Oh, and keep up the good work :-)

A few more thoughts on Elantris as compared with other fantasy novels...

Here are three things about Elantris that I loved because they are so rare in the fantasy genre:

1. Natural/readable writing style. I am fed up with people trying to copy Tolkien's ponderous writing style. I know you're all going to hate me for this, but I find Prof. Tolkien almost unreadably dull and Elantris has a nice light touch.

2. Humour. Again, I blame Tolkien. Most fantasy novels are so puffed up with importance that there is almost no humour. It's like the characters all stand around posing with their hands on hips making pronouncements rather than having conversations. Elantris has a more conversational style and the characters crack wise.

3. No protracted travelling scenes. Again, JRRT is probably to blame. The worst offender these days is George RR Martin. The last 2 Song of Ice & Fire books were about twice as long as they needed to be because of pages & pages of trudging through overly described landscape meeting the standard brigands and ragamuffin priests along the way, advancing the story not a whit. Just GET THERE ALREADY! (Sorry.) Elantris has none of this. THANK YOU, Brandon!

Finished Elantris last night and felt overall that it was a good read and I'll also be reading Mistborn eventually.

I was disappointed that more was not explained about the Seons, like why they went 'insane' when their owners didn't turn into full Elantrians. I guess I'll have to wait for the sequel :o) And wasn't it in the book that Elantrians before the fall could make Seons?

I had also wanted to know more about Kaise. I thought maybe she was somehow connected with the Dor, but maybe she's 'just' a child prodigy. I'll definitely get the sequel if it has Kaise, Andien and more about the Seons. I felt like I was being teased with the little tidbits handed out about them and then nothing more at the end. What was that article... about writers liking to torture their readers?

I wasn't too surprised about the dakhor. I felt Brandon gave lots of hints about them, through Hrathen. And Hrathen also reflected once on the making of demons, so I figured magic must come into it somewhere.

Hrathen poisoning Sarene threw me for a loop. I figured he would poison Dilaf still, or maybe one of the other nobles. Never Sarene! But I liked how it worked out; Sarene finally gets to know Spirit and gets to see New Elantris.

#8: littlegeek
I wasn't sure why the Elantrians would need something like this lake, if their lives were so perfect.
I've heard it theorised before that being immortal has its down sides. Maybe they just get tired of living, maybe there's a sameness to life after enough years. Maybe they've seen all their loved ones die and want to join them. I could understand that.

I didn't mind that Hrathen falls in love with Sarene. It seems fitting, since Sarene is always worried no one will ever love her as well as respect her. But several times she was wrong about what other people were thinking/feeling. I think she made too many assumptions about how they must feel about her. Now we the readers know she is wrong, at least in this one case, although she never will.

I'm confused about uncle Kiin.

I'd been suspecting that he might be the legit king of Teod. (Thought he might have stepped aside for some reason, until he said he accepted the rule of no man.) But I didn't quite get all of that about the piracy. When did that happen? Before or after he was bringing presents to his niece? And why didn't Sarene know a bit more of her own family history? The royal family tree could hardly be a secret. And I'd imagine that the diplomats she'd dealt with knew all of the details, including the identity of the pirate. Monarchs usually kept a close eye on succession contests in neighboring kingdoms.

#23: Yeah, it’s hard to not Deus Ex as a writer. No matter how well foreshadowed you think you’re being, you often end up making things just a little TOO convenient. Particularly in a book like one of mine, where I try to twist and pull everything together.

I’ve been running a feature on my blog where I’ve been talking about elements of bad storytelling that even the professional writers depend on, and number one (which I’ll post this week) is going to be Deus Ex Machina. Tolkien did it, Rowling does it, and to be honest--though I try not to--I do it.

But, if you want to see how far this book came in regards to that, read the deleted scenes on my website. There are a few Deus Ex moments that I managed to cut out.

#25: There was NO connection between Dilaf and Galladon. Sorry if I gave that impression! Dilaf isn’t Galladon’s son or anything like that. Also, the Hrathen love mentioned in a previous post of mine. I’m pleased that you noticed it before I even had to mention it--means my instinct in wishing I could cut it was right.

#27: The Chasm, as the map was supposed to be drawn, should have crossed just below where the mountains turn to the east and lower down to the steppes. That means that the chasm line should go BELOW Aon Aon, which isn’t that uncommon on an Aon drawing, since most of them are much bigger than Aon Aon. See my previous post, however, on how I’d reposition it if I could.

#30: Ah, yes, that’s the correct connection. The story of Dilaf’s wife was one of enough note that pretty much everyone in Elantris at the time heard about it, and it was recorded in several of the big books about Aons and the magic. (I believe Raoden reads about it at one point.) So, there’s no connection between the two, but Galladon DID hear about the story.

#35: I’m actually going more for the ancient concept of the “Aether” believed by a lot of renaissance scientists. They believed in a Divine Wind, which they thought that if they could find a kind of sail or something of that like, they could tap into it for energy. I imagined more of a “Divine Storm” somewhere unseen. You can tap into it, and--like sticking a pipe into an aquifer--get water pressure. The shape of the hole you push it out into this world determines what form that energy takes.

#38 (and others.) I’ve got an answer on the sequel up just above! Sorry it took me so long. I’ve been grading papers and finishing Scribbler. Plus, of course, I’m good at procrastinating!

#39: I promise that I had Dilaf planned and built long before I reached the part in the plot where he showed off his powers. However, from the get-go, he was envisioned as a REAL threat to take over the book once Hrathen went through his redemption story.

I’m getting better that the pacing issue. I love endings, and think I have spectacular ones, but there’s a fine art to learning how to space things properly as the end of the book comes along.

#42: Very astute observations.
#43: I think that there is something in human nature that makes us driven to USE things. Just like we’re driven to use the stick to become a tool, I think we can be driven to use religion as just another tool.

Often, people will point at hate-mongers in a religion and try to shift blame to the religion itself. While sometimes this IS justified, I often see it as pointing at the psychopath who kills, but who also has been known to play dungeons and dragons, or video games, or anything else.

People can take anything and twist it. I think when you look at most religions in their modern form, you’ll find that they are good institutions that encourage goodness in their followers. Even those which teach things you don’t believe (the homosexuality issue comes to mind) the bulk of religions I’ve seen do an admirable job of delineating what they think is morally correct while making a point of saying violence, hatred, or prejudice against people who do not believe the same way is flat out wrong.

There are exceptions. I believe them to be the minority. However, sometimes they run away with us, and in these cases, someone like Hrathen can do a LOT of damage in the name of a God he doesn’t even really believe or care to follow.

#47: I don’t think you need to worry about me leaving religion alone as a topic of mine. It fascinates me. The Mistborn trilogy doesn’t deal with it as much as Elantris did, but I think you’ll be pleased with the way things are handled.

Of course, then there’s Warbreaker, which stars a god who doesn’t believe in his own religion. He’s loads of fun.

I said Dilaf, I was expecting trouble from this one but so quickly transforming into a demon, and an incredably powerful one at that, almost felt like Brandon needed an antagonist powerful enough to warrent a show of force from the healed Elantrians.

69> Brandon> I promise that I had Dilaf planned and built long before I reached the part in the plot where he showed off his powers. However, from the get-go, he was envisioned as a REAL threat to take over the book once Hrathen went through his redemption story.

I belive you, I think what made it seem more contrived is we got very small hints about a branch of the Fjorden religion, that scares Hrathen, and a fanatic from Arelon with hints he's older than appearances. Fanatics in general are scary dangerous people and I knew we were going to see quite a bit pf trouble from Dilaf eventually.

It's overnight we find out Dilaf was not only part of a secondary plot against Arelon (which was strongly hinted at) AND a member of this basically unknown religious sect of powerful monsters, he was also the head of it and one of the most powerful men in Fjordan (Phyisically, Religiously and Politically). Like an Evil Clark Kent/Superman.

Maybe if we heard a story of a fugitive from Duladel and fantastic stories of the attackers that arrows bounced off thier bare chests or something.

My point was this incredibly powerful enemy SEEMS to be created from nothing at the end of the book.

p.s. I still liked the book...

Brandon sez "a god who doesn’t believe in his own religion. He’s loads of fun."

Oh my. Conflict before anyone else even appears in the story. I like it.

Ok I''m back from my break (Koninginnedag took a bit more out of me than I thought), so here are the promised questions. Ehm, one anyway:

The deadline set for Hrathen of three months to convert the people of Arelon. Is this possible?

The faith of these people has had a blow from the fall of Elantris. The number of inhabitants is not all that great ( I don't know the exact number, but we're not talking millions) and the conversion of a king and the influential nobles will help, but when you look at the history of Europe (Renaissance and Reformation, is that about right?) I just can't see people converting that easily.

Let me get this straight: I like the book and love religious angles and will buy the sequel so I can get more info on the religions.

#69 - Again we agree, but those doing "wrong" often enough are the more visible ones. Also, those who uses religion as a pretext or tool for wielding or establishing or enforcing their own power are quite a few/visible, and the well established routine of marking one's enemies as heretics (the enemy within) does nothing to contradict the view that religion is a power tool.

#72,
Near the end we find out that Hrathen believed his goal was to convert the Arelons in 3 months. And he figured it would be good enough to convert the king and nobles and call the country converted. Or maybe at the beginning he was conceited enough to think he actually could convert everyone in 3 months? But I think the former.

But Dilaf points out that Hrathen was only a diversion. The real goal was for the demon monks to come in and massacre all the Arelons.

#48: You’ve got an interesting point about India. I remember studying Sikhism and Jainism in college and realizing that I knew far less about world religions--and which ones were the ‘big’ ones--than I thought I did. There’s so much going on over in that country that it’s mind-boggling.

#62: I’m glad to hear it. I realize that Elantris appeals more to some people, but I’m banking a lot of my efforts right now on the Mistborn trilogy. I just feel I’ve learned so much since I wrote Elatnris. Not that I’d go back and change it (except for the tweaks above.) I still think it’s a refreshing change from a lot of fantasy. Yet, Mistborn is--I hope--just plain better written.

#63: This is an excellent question, and I’m sorry it took me so long to get to it. Thanks for your patience. LONG, RELIGION-FILLED ANSWER COMING! Consider yourselves warned.

I kind of wondered about this question myself, before I got published. How would members of my religion react to what I’m doing?

Notice that I said members of my religion. My mind, I distinguish the church--which is the doctrine, the teachings, and the beliefs--from the culture of the church--which is the people, fallible as they are, whom God works through. I think that there are a lot of things in church culture which aren’t doctrinal, but which many people believe--and it’s not my place, in my opinion, to try and teach them the difference. (Like, for instance, evolution--which I support completely, and see no conflict between it and belief in a supreme being.)

One of those things, however, that some of the culture has a problem with is fantasy. I’m lucky, I think, being Mormon. The honest truth is that LDS culture, for some reason, seems a lot more open to fantastical stories than some other conservative Christian groups. (I’m constantly bewildered at the radical position that some people in the south take against Harry Potter.)

Therefore, I haven’t had really any pressure--certainly not as much as one would think. If it’s out there, I’m not being confronted with it. The church itself doesn’t take stands on issues like these, which is one of the reasons why I like it so much. (One thing to know, however, is that Mormons have a ‘lay’ ministry--meaning that the pastor of my local denomination is just a regular guy, with a regular job, who directs things on Sundays without pay or compensation. The last three congregations I’ve gone to for a period of time have all had Bishops who were themselves readers of fantasy and big Tolkien fans.)

So, I don’t think many people have trouble at all with fantasy. And, those who do, tend to have trouble with anything that is not ‘real’--and would include pretty much any adventure fiction genre in that bucket. They are in the minority, and I’ve really never had to deal with one before.

(And on the topic of religion, the LDS people felt pretty oppressed during their earlier years by people belonging to other denominations, and so I haven’t found anyone get down on me for having an oppressive religion in one of my books.)

More, however, I have to deal with people being disappointed in me as a role model. Even this isn’t very common, but it HAS happened. I’ve gotten two emails (both, as far as I could tell, from young teens) who expressed disappointment that I’d started having my characters swear in Mistborn. (Yes, in conservative LDS culture, saying hell and damn is considered swearing.) Some people have a problem with this, and with the level of violence in some of my books.

My only response to this is to shrug, apologize for making them uncomfortable (but not apologize for writing the books) and move on. I do what I do, write the best books I can, and hope that people enjoy them and continue to pay me to write them. :)

Thanks, Brandon, I appreciate the thorough answer. And for what it's worth, I think you've got a great attitude about all of it. You just keep on doing what you're doing, let the books flow, and see where it leads.
Bravo!

#76

Very interesting. I attended one of Card's "Secular Humanist Revival Meetings" long ago, and have always wondered about the LDS reaction to those.

#76 - Thanks for the answer, I've been waiting for that one (and thanks to Mutant for asking the question).

Brandon, if the press would pay more attention to reasonable believers like yourself, rather than the extremists, we might have an easier time all getting along. Thanks for post #76, and keep speaking your truth (and writing cool novels!)

#65: I like Grandpa Tolkien’s writing, but partially just because it’s HIS. I agree that most people who try copying it do a terrible job. I’ve always been a fan of George Orwell’s philosophy on writing--that you should make the writing itself as translucent as possible so that the story and the characters are what comes trough, not the language.

Also, I’ve vowed NEVER to do extended travel scenes! Mistborn three has a couple of chapters with travel, since I couldn’t avoid them, but for the most part I try to either stick in the same city (like I did for Elantris, Mistborn 1, and Mistborn 2) or simply have people leave in one chapter, then arrive in the next one. (Like I did in Warbreaker.)

#66: I wasn’t intentionally trying to torture in this book. I just wanted to seed for the next one, and then ENDED UP torturing you all because I never got around to writing it. I do apologize for this. But, then, I like it when a book doesn’t tie up all of the loose ends. (Sometimes, I think I tie up too many.) It makes the story feel larger than the book, which I like.

#67: WHOLE KIIN BACKSTORY

Kiin was the elder son, the rightful ruler of Teod. However, he never spent any time in the kingdom, instead going out on his travels and explorations. His younger brother stayed at home and--in his opinion--did all of the hard things, like take care of an aging father, learn to deal with the finances of the kingdom, and generally keep things afloat. So, when the father died, Eventeo seized the throne.

Kiin was outraged. He considered himself betrayed by his own kin and cast aside his hereditary name, taking the name “Dreok” instead, based off of an appropriate Aon. During his travels, he’d met a lot of rather seedy characters, and he managed to gather himself an army of pirates and mercenaries, promising them riches once he had his throne back. He attacked Teod, but lost, and his brother covered up the fact that it was the ‘real’ king who was attacking. Eventeo made it out to be that a bandit lord had tried to take the kingdom, and while some knew the truth, most did not.

Kiin retired to Arelon, where he had friends and some allies among the merchants there, and planned to strike again. However, his life ended up taking a very different turn.

#70: You know, you make a good point about the stories. Where were you when I was doing the revisions on this book. ;)

It’s surprising the things that slip by you. I caught a few things like this (elements of the plot that needed foreshadowing) in the very last draft of the book. These I caught only because one of my alpha readers pointed them out to me.

Goes to reinforce just how tough it is to get a perfect book written. I haven’t done it yet, but hopefully someday I’ll get close.

#71: That one is free for download (in draft form right now) on my website. It’s called Warbreaker. Be warned, however, that I’m still planning some revisions to it. If you’d rather just wait, it will be out in hardback in about two years.

#72: No, you’re right to ask. It’s a bit of a stretch. As was explained in another post, however, there are reasons for it being the way it is.

Hrathen believed he could do it--or, at least, that he could make enough progress (by converting the nobility of Kae) that he could convince Wyrn that Arelon was making progress, thereby saving the kingdom. However, in the end, it was all just a distraction. Wyrn knew the chaos Hrathen had been able to cause in Duladel in just a short time. He was baking on Hrathen doing the same thing in Arelon--which, as a matter of fact, he did.

#78: Card (Orson Scott Card) is a very interesting figure in LDS culture. The church itself has no problem with him--again, it stays away from politics for the most part. The people, however, don’t seem to know what to do with him.

Card is outspoken, in-your-face, and often downright brilliant in his political, philosophical, and moral discussions. People like that tend to make a lot of enemies, and make a lot of people uncomfortable. In some areas, he’s a staunch conservative--then in others, he’s a flaming liberal. I don’t agree with the guy all the time, but man, I respect his ability to make himself understood.

LDS culture is generally about NOT rocking the boat. Mr. Card, however, rocks with enthusiasm and vigor. He also happens to be one of the most famous LDS people, and probably the most famous LDS artist.

Some people love him, others hate him. It’s very fun to watch a group of members get in a discussion about him. It’s probably similar to how Renaissance Catholics might have been when trying to discuss and figure out what the heck Da Vinci was about.

For the interest of the parties who were curious, here's one of those emails I mentioned earlier. I don't get things like this often at all, but this was probably the worst (for my ego) I've ever had to read:

"When I read Elantris I thought that you had a way with writting books and I was very impressed with how you did it. I couldnt wait for you to write your next book, and when Mistborn came out I eagerly tore through that book page after page, and I began to realize you hadnt put as much time, thought, and consideration into this one and i was sort of dissapointed.

"There wasnt as good of a story line as in Elantris, as well as in a lot of places I found words that were unnecisary and didnt fit in the sentence as well as I found a lot of grammer errors.

"But what dissapointed me most was how you began to use swear words and used the word whore alot and then I realized that you didnt have the same morals as me. You dont even know me so you will probably read this and just move on to another email that another of your reviewers sent but I thought i might as well give it a try."

Ouch. I don't post this to make fun of or mock this person, by the way. I want to remain respectful of their opinions, to which they are entitled. Still, it's sometimes brutal to look through your inbox as a writer.

I don't think I'd write an author if I didn't like the book. Maybe that's just my non-confrontational side coming out.

Yeah, I think the only fan letter I've ever written to an author was to Carl Zimmer after I read Soul made flesh, about the discovery of the brain and the scientists who first studied it. I was fascinated and thought I'd say so. I got a very nice letter back.

He blogs at The Loom, if anyone else is interested.

Lots of good questions/comments/insights here. Thanks, all, for the discussion that I have now (finally!) read all the way through. Most of the comments and questions I had have already been addressed, but I hope Brandon will see fit to comment on one more...

What's with the "consumption of life" to fuel the Dakhor transporter beam? I found that to be a very troubling "extension" of the power of Dor, and it didn't seem to fit too well. Does that mean that the use of AonDor has some serious downside as well? I mean, for example, some terrestrial physicists have played with the idea that all of our mucking around with the surface and atmosphere of Earth are somehow imperceptively slowing the rotational velocity of the planet, which will ultimately cause the Moon to (a) fly off into space, or (b) spiral disastrously down to the surface. Not that that will happen anytime soon, or anything, but does Elantrian use of AonDor "cost" something somewhere else on their planet?

Just wondering. I enjoyed the book. Thanks!

#74 / 82

Thanks for the answers!

I guess it is my faith (RC) that got in the way here. "Your not converted unless you really believe"... I've still got some problems with it, but I can see how it works.
Strange the ambiguity (is this the right word? can't get a good translation for the Dutch one) within Hrathen. Firm believer and yet content with the conversion of a relative small group. Although that could be used as a starting point I guess. Okay, makes sense after all ;-)

Edited to get the Dutch words out

#86 - I was pretty disturbed when I read the part about the leader of the Dakhor monks (who ended up being Dilaf of course) requiring one of his monks to give up his life to transport him somewhere he could have easily walked in a few minutes.

But when I read that, I took it as less of a reflection on the Dor, and more of a reflection on each culture's interpretation of it. I saw the Dor as being neutral, and the manifestations of it being more directed by the people using it.

#88 - OK, I guess. But rather than look at the "ethical" use of Dor, which we can discuss separately, I was mainly interested in the "scarcity" of Dor. As in, can it be used up? If you take the Dakhor method to an extreme, then eventually there might not be any more human life energies to consume and the transporter trick would go away (for them). Raoden focused the energy of Dor using Aon, and to our knowledge no one "was consumed." But, was SOMETHING consumed, and does it matter to the long-term viability of Elantris? More clearly, perhaps, is Dor like our fossil fuels (which we believe will eventually "run out", though it will not be in our lifetimes) and should they think about/plan for its non-existence? (I actually tried to think of some energy source that WOULDN'T eventually run out, and came up with a blank. Any ideas out there?)

I considered the Dor to be the unformed (basically limitless) power of creation.

Energy is not used up, merely converted to another form...

I think the Dakhor trick of using up a person to perform the magic was along the lines of they are not able to tap the Dor strongly enough for the Dor to power the whole thing, sooo a person is used as the energy source to be burned to push up the 'energy' level high enough.

If Brandon disagrees I hope he has time to respond...

Isn't the Dor like "the force", or am I way off? I always guessed that you could use it however you wanted to...

91> Did I say anything to give a different impression or was it someone else?

#90-91

OK, but I thought that the Dor was a localized phenomenon (as in, to Elantris and/or their planet) rather than a "universal" power like Star Wars' "the Force." So, then, it pervades all living materials (or was it ALL materials, generally)... can it be used up? If there are enough Elantrians doing this, that, and the other thing with Dor, does that make Dor less available to other potential users of Dor (say, those pesky monks at Dakhor)? Is there a limit on the number of Elantrians that can be created by the Shaod? Are they living in a kind of zero-sum society, where you only get more people as the existing ones die off? Why, then, were so many people "taken" by the Shaod during the three months of the story? Who was dying in Elantris? If that is not the case, then how is the population of Elantris limited? All those Elantrian "magicians" using Dor to fashion a beautiful city, cure ills, feed the surrounding populations, etc. must consume resources...

Please keep in mind that I REALLY liked the story. :) I just like to try to figure out the larger picture...

Just a quick note--not enough time to respond to everything here yet--but I was about to explain why the monk died for the teleportation thing, then discovered that someone had figured it out already. (Nice job Readafew! How'd you know?)

The Dor, in my mind, is NOT like the force. It's more like a giant battery of energy, compressed together in the fourth dimension. It IS renewable, but it WOULD be possible to tap it out if you used too much in a short period. (Actually, what would happen first is that the pressure would lessen, and the powers would all grow weaker.)

Think of it as a big firehose. Drawing an Aon--or, activating one of the runes on the Dakhor bodies, or using other methods that craft the right shape--opens a valve and lets some of the energy/power out.

This is problematic for the Dakhor because that energy comes out straight through their bones. In most cases, this is only mildly uncomfortable, and in many cases their bones are more 'permanent, always on' runes, which no longer bother them. However, the amount of energy required to teleport mater from one place to another is quite high--and the rune bursting out through the person, all that energy flowing through them, fries them to a crisp.

The Elantris way is far better, since the energy only has to pass through the Aon, which hangs in the air and dissipates the power that way. However, for reasons I'll eventually get into in the books, you have to be someone very special to end up as an Elantrian. The Dakhor, however, can make one of their Dor users out of ANYONE. The trade off is that some of the really big powers kill their user when activated. (Though, with research, they may find a way around some of this.)

#87

As I recall, the RC church often converted a country by converting the rulers. In the "good old days" of established state religions, there would have been a rapid "trickle-down" effect.

If the Emperor Constantine hadn't converted . . . !

#92...I wasn't responding to you, It was just a general sort of comment.

#95 True, but I got the impression in the book, that only a complete conversion of the country was an acceptable result. As for the rapid trickle down effect, recent studies indicate it wasn't all that rapid and the old beliefs never really died out. Ofcourse the RC-Church was smart enough to incorporate a lot of heathen stuff in their own religion (Easter etc.) which made it more acceptable. I get the feeling that that wouldn''t be acceptable in this case.

I think it was acceptable, for the higher ups at least, as long as the rest of the people didn't know about it. Hrathen and other Gorns (did I get that right? I'm starting to forget terminology) used Seons for their own purposes, even though they were supposed to be heathen artifacts. It's amazing what people can excuse away, as long as it's for the 'greater good'.

The other day in Tai Chi (many different spellings), our instructor had us take our "Chi" energy and make it into a ball which got bigger and smaller, as we wished. We then had to fling it around the room faster, then slower. Somehow, I got the idea that I did have a Seon. Thank goodness it didn't start talking to me though!

#99 - ROFL!!! That had been a sight! The concept of imagination and inner imagining (did I just make this word up?) to help the mind focus on something is quite strong. I try to use that as a football coach. Problem is females my own age playing football in Sweden are not prone to take notions from others - they tend to be headstrong and highly individualistic as else they couldn't have endured/lasted in a sport dominated by men with men looking down on females practising "their" sport ;-)

#98 I'd forgotten about that... But you are right.

#99 Being bonded with a seon could be rather nice, couldn't it?

#99 - I think I like your version of a Seon, compared to the one in the book. Someone brought up that maybe Seons are used for surveillance in Elantris and I haven't been able to warm up to them the same way. Your version, your Seon being from you and as a part of you, sounds great. Reminds me of the familiars in Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy. I've wanted my own familiar after reading those.

I hope we get to learn more about Seons in future books. I'm a little wary of their role as well, but I think they're very cool and I want to know more.

I think every religious conversion must include some concessions to the old religion, or lack of, for it to be successful quickly. People don't just start believing in a new religion because someone tells them to. This seems to be the problem with Hrathen's converting efforts - there are no concessions to the people (that I remember), and I think that must make it much harder.

I too want a daemon, sandragon. I'd love to find out what animal mine would be!

littlebook, sandragon, there's a topic for discussion: best familiars in fiction.

I'll take Pyewacket. ;)

Pullman's daemons are my favorite familiars, with McCaffrey's fire lizards as a close second (at least, of what I can think of off hand :).

I finally finished Elantris (I got a little distracted by life, the universe, and everything...) and I really liked it.

I don't have a whole lot to say (which is good, considering I missed most the discussion anyway :) but I enjoyed Sarene (and her relationship with Raoden), though many of the fantasy books I read have strong female characters, so she was a familiar character. I found Dilaf extremely creepy (well, I find all religioius fanatics extremely creepy) and did have an inkling that he wasn't the meek servent he was pretending to be, but didn't realize just how bad he was until it all blew up.

Oh! I'd forgotten about the fire lizards. Actually they would be my first favorite, with daemons second. I very much wanted to impress a dragon when I was younger. Come to think of it, I still do :o)

Brandon, I just wanted to say, I absolutely loved the book, and I'm going to be rereading it. I was wondering how familiar you are with eastern religions, as the Dor sounds a lot like the Tao (Dow) from Taoism, and the exercise, whose name has escaped me, that one of the characters was practicing sounded a bit like Tai Chi.

Just finished the book and loved it. Wow, a lot sure does happen in this last section. I was able to catch on to a few of the twists and turns before they happened, but for the most part, I was caught by surprise when they happened! I really don't have much to contribute to the discussion as I think that most of the points that I would make have been covered.

One general comment though:

#76 Brandon, I think that it really helps your writing that you have such a deep understanding of your religion and it's history. By including religion as a major plot point in your book, the whole book becomes more believable because of your extensive knowledge on the subject. I know it's odd to describe a fantasy novel as believable, but I think that's what really makes a good one work. If we can buy into the concepts and elements of the story that aren't so fantastical, it makes the fantasy elements of the story seem more likely to actual be able to work.

Thanks again for participating in these discussions, your insights and the extra tidbits that you have provided have added a wonderful aspect to these discussions!

I finally finished this book over the holiday. (hoard my reading time? You bet!)

Thanks Brandon, for an engaging book with worked out ideas, and characters that actually change! Too rare, the actually changing bit, sometimes.

I saw some strange (maybe) parallels with the state of the Shaod, and accounts (real world) of people who've endured onslaughts involved with the premature rising of kundalini. Perhaps you didn't intend this, but it did lend an insightful angle.

I will go on to read Mistborn at some point. Not because I meant to, but because, like some others already observed here, this book sorta stuck itself in my head for a number of days after I'd finished it. As if it didn't quite want to be put back on the shelf!

The only mistake I made - it wasn't good airplane reading! grin - it wanted a nice, quiet, thoughtful, and unpressured atmosphere to absorb, and I really really really hoard my reading time while at home!

Your turn to count coup, Brandon Sanderson!

Well I'm glad I stayed with this despite the slow start. I really enjoyed the last two thirds of the book. I liekd how Sarene's political acumen managed to find the best of almost any situation.

One thing I wasn't sure of when Raoden drew a dirt line to re-start the Dor, surely he didn't have enough time to write a whole Aon by running around all four the cities? so what did the line do?

I loved the continual plot twists, possibly there were rather too many of them, but each one was enjoyable and unexpected.

Glad you stuck with it and enjoyed it at the end reading_fox. It's been a long time, but I think the wall was intact that formed the Aon, except at the one point he drew the line in the dirt?

Yes the city itself was an Aon that represented the entire country and when the earthquake hit and created a huge crack was created, it changed the 'face' of the country and so by drawing the line was correcting the Aon. They probably need to make a more permanent representation to but I'm not sure.

Woot! And now another book in the world of Elantris, The Emperor's Soul

I've pre-ordered it on Amazon 'cause I just can't wait!

I'd seen this listed but didn't realise it was an Elantris book. Yay!