'Toxic Christianity': the evangelicals creating champions for Trump 2

Trump's 'Christian Day of Visibility' tantrum is also a warning
Sarah Posner | April 4, 2024, 6:00 AM EDT

The former president's linking of “Christian visibility” and the election is similarly deliberate...in linking “Christian visibility” to the election results, Trump is doing more than feeding into his base’s outrage of the week. He is dangerously priming his voters for a repeat of his multipronged assault on the 2020 election results and the peaceful transfer of power. After all, in the minds of Trump loyalists, if Christians (that is, Trump’s loyal base of white evangelical Christians) show up on Election Day in unprecedented numbers, how could he lose?...

...A September 2023 Public Religion Research Institute survey found that “six in ten white evangelical Protestants (60%) say the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump, compared with 38% of white mainline/non-evangelical Protestants and white Catholics, 24% of Hispanic Catholics, 23% of religiously unaffiliated Americans, and 11% of Black Protestants.”..

https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/trump-christian-day-of-visibility-tr...
_____________________________________

Evangelical Protestants
Pew Research Center
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/religious-traditi...

Donald Trump sells a Bible (YouTube)

The "devout catholic" when asked by an EWTN reporter what Easter means said. It is a time of forgiveness and no phoniness. This is right up the progressive driveway, no mention of Suffering, death, entombment, Resurrection or redemption. no sin, no Christ. This agnosticism is mirrored by recent Vatican documents which preach the same neutered gospel according to Joe "tolerate everything, applaud everyone, and never commit the heresy of making one uncomfortable. The great canceled American saint Archbishop Fulton Sheen said it best by defining tolerance as " an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil" No wonder he has been canceled by the gang, today he would say something like, "we ae not only patient with evil we refuse to label it as such for fear of not being inclusive and welcoming enough"....Next conclave please....JMJ....

Although progressives see Christian Nationalist gargons behind every icon. Resulting in an anti American attitude by Marxists here and in Rome, chill out comrades there is no "take over of the government" coming. What is coming however and maybe just intime to help save America from the real plain and present dangers facing her. The dreaded American Catholic springtime is growing, After decades of barreness since the American Church buckled after the innovations of Vatll American culture went down the drain with it. Now however most of the clowns are gone as is "the spirit of the council" fading into a distant bad dream. Proteges and a very unfertile soil still are in place. Courageous Bishops and zealous young priests are sowing the seeds and a re-blossoming has begun. Raatzinger calls us a creative minority,Bergoglio calls us backward. We choose to ignore him and home school our kids, send them to classical schools, trade schools. We will redeem this culture from within. You guys call this "Christian Nationalism" meaning we secretly want to "take charge". What you are really saying is what Catholics have fought in America since the begining, The same Anti Catholic bigotry the "Know nothings" of the 19th century spouted. We Catholics in America have always been perrenial outsiders to American government and power. The Marxists of today in Rome and Washington like the "know nothings" cannot prevent us from living our creed we know we cannot shape law or policy as opposed to Marxists who alwys try to impose laws and policys. These Catholics I'm talking about are not interested. We are to smart for that we have learned form centuries in America how to live the "Catholic Thing" in these United States. Our American Catholic forebearers are our models, inspirations, and intercessions, not tryants from the left or right, "Chistian Nationalist" = Catholic is an Oxymoron....JMJ....

>4 brone:

There's no denying that there has been anti-Catholic bigotry in the USA, just as there was in my own native Britain. But do you overstate the case somewhat? You have had two Catholic presidents out of the last twelve (almost 17%, not bad considering 23% of the population are Catholic). The Catholic Kennedy dynasty have certainly not been "outsiders" in US "government and power". I know personally of a number of right wing Catholics who play a not insignificant behind-the-scenes role in Washington power brokering. The US Catholic bishops' 1983 pastoral message The Challenge of Peace: God's Promise and Our Response was certainly influential in both the USA and internationally. Catholics played a major role in the powerful Mafia and criminal gangs as well as the police in New York and Chicago, and presumably also elsewhere. And the increase of Hispanic, African and African-American Catholics in the USA potentially presents a new opportunity for the Catholic voice to be heard.

And just to repeat once again the obvious: there is no significant Marxist presence "today in Rome and Washington". The Church does not align itself with any political ideology, whether capitalist or Marxist, and virtually all US politics is emphatically right of centre.

>5 John5918: ICYMI, Catholic appointees dominate the current US Supreme Court:

CATHOLIC
John Roberts (Chief Justice)
Clarence Thomas
Samuel Alito
Sonia Sotomayor
Brett Kavanaugh
Amy Coney Barrett

JEWISH
Elena Kagan

PROTESTANT
Neil Gorsuch (Anglican, raised Catholic)
Ketanji Brown Jackson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_St...

>6 margd: Thanks, yes, I missed that one.

What is present in Rome today is the priest who heads catechesis who recently said " its time to abandon the idea of making Rome a Christian city." Well Washington never was a Catholic city but we won't give up trying to make it one. America youre right is run by a "devout catholic" but he does not believe or support Church Teaching. The US today has a system set up in seminarys that is better than ever. Catholic higher educaation although alot are catholic wastelands, there are many orthodox Teaching schools in the US to choose who maintain their unique American Catholic identity. Catholic campus ministry is in a golden age in the US hundreds of non catholic schools all over the US can learn about Catholicism from these faithful kids. The Us is a global leader in adult catechesis I myself am involved in the RICA program it is no joke and it takes the better part of a year for all the candidates to go through the different ancient rites. US Orthodox women religious orders are arguably the most dynamic in the world. The US parish school system is still vibrant and growing its quality of education is superb. On May 19th US Catholics will pilgrimage to Indianapolis leading over a hundred thousand Catholics through the Steets of the US to revive Adoration of the Eucharist in Indianappolis on July 16th. Rome may give up on its citizens but we surely wont. I recently had a conversation with my Bishop, I told him how proud I was of the proession of hundreds of Catholics down the main street of his city on Good Friday. His comment was typically American, "these streets are our streets we pay for them, they think nothing of shutting down whole blocks all day for a used car (antique) show....JMJ.....

>8 brone:

Good to hear that the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults is alive and well in the USA as it is in many other countries. I was involved with it when I was working in the UK forty-odd years ago. It is a fruit of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council, reviving an old custom of the early Church which had gradually declined and got lost since Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in the 4th century CE.

The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium, makes a number of recommendations. "The catechumenate for adults, comprising several distinct steps, is to be restored and to be taken into use at the discretion of the local ordinary. By this means the time of the catechumenate, which is intended as a period of suitable instruction, may be sanctified by sacred rites to be celebrated at successive intervals of time" (64). Even back then the Global South was ahead of the pack in some ways, as SS notes that "In mission lands it is found that some of the peoples already make use of initiation rites. Elements from these, when capable of being adapted to Christian ritual, may be admitted" (65). Also, "Because the use of the mother tongue in the administration of the sacraments and sacramentals can often be of considerable help to the people, this use is to be extended according to the following norms: a) The vernacular language may be used in administering the sacraments and sacramentals" (63). In 2022 a revised English translation of the rite's text was being prepared, but I don't know whether that is in use yet.

An interesting article from a couple of years ago (link) highlights some of the characteristics of the rite. "RCIA leads seekers into relationship with Jesus, not into a school... RCIA is a process of conversion for unbaptized persons... Conversion happens by encountering the entire mystery of Christ unfolding throughout the liturgical year... Initiation is a ritual process... Initiation is the responsibility of all the baptized... Becoming a disciple is not an acronym. We have a decades-long history of referring to the adult initiation process by the initials RCIA. This is unfortunate because it's insider vocabulary. And it’s too easy to think of those initials as an academic program to complete or an exclusive club to join instead of a relationship with Jesus Christ that changes everything..."

Global South/Global North Marxist buzz words/ What ever happenned to the Universal Church. Leftists always want to divide and separate and for anyone who cares about an acronyms the rite is not even called RICA anymore some progressive managed to change the meaning, never the less Americans bringing non-Catholics, pagans. former pornographers, and Holywood elites into the Church is astounding, everyday we hear of some well known figure entering the Church and learning her "rituals" as well as her dogmas....JMJ....

>10 brone: Yes, we can definitely agree that the Church is universal, encompassing all, inclusive, seeking unity rather than division and schism, without political labels such as "Marxist" and "leftist" as the Church transcends secular politics. And of course the importance of rituals, which is a key element of the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults. Mind you, I'm less impressed to "hear of some well known figure entering the Church" than I am by the thousands of ordinary people in Africa and elsewhere entering the Church every Easter whom we never hear about.

I'm currently reading Evangelization of Cultures: Reflections on Inculturation by Bishop Rodrigo Mejia Saldarriaga. He has been a missionary for over fifty years in Congo, Kenya and Ethiopia. I haven't finished it yet, but I can highly recommend it from what I've read so far, and I think it does shed light on some of the issues we converse about in this thread.

As we approach the end of the Bergoglian disaster I agree we must stay close encompassing all as you say. No mattter what comes from the last days or years of this disastrous pontificate. In 2013 Bergoglio says "I want to make a mess" that he did indeed. He signed a document which he said, "Pluralism and the diversity of religions are willed by God". As far as contraception well that can be used "in certain cases". This set the stage for explicitly approving those committing adultery can recieve Holy Communion. Next comes the blessing of active hoosexuals condemned by Church teaching and the Bible. Hell is also empty according to Bergoglio saying, "it is not the logic of the Gospel" that someone should be "condemned for ever". He then allows an Idol to be worshipped in the Vatican Gardens and then blashphemes by allowing same Idol to be led in procession in St Peter's in which he presided over. Progressives as we know agree with all this anti-catholic catholicism and have gifted rhetoricians who continually ridicule Catholic Traditionalists who wish to correct and transform the world with "good stories" mimicking the language of the Faith. It took ten years to bring Tucho out of his erotic closet into the Catholic mainstream. Tucho is the perfect progessive he is , simple a good story teller (Kiss me on the mouth) one of his most famous. He is popular with the Galen Mafia and a consumate "word merchandiser", a creator of "good stories" although his stories are more seductive and much more effective than open hostile critics angainst Traditional Catholicsm....AMDG....

>12 brone:

Hm. Some of those terms don't sound very "Universal Church" to me and give the impression of wanting "to divide and separate" (>10 brone:). Progressives, anti-catholic catholicism, Catholic Traditionalists, "good stories" mimicking the language of the Faith, to bring Tucho out of his erotic closet, the Galen Mafia... and of course the use of "Bergoglio" rather than recognising him as Pope Francis. Unifying or divisive?

Oh! we recognize him yes, as a very divisive Pope...JMJ....

>14 brone:

And yet most of the Catholics in the world, and indeed most of the non-Catholics too, recognise him as a prophetic voice trying to bring about unity in our polarised and fragmented world. Perhaps there are some who prefer division to unity? Contributing to or colluding with division is certainly easier than working for unity. The latter involves a level of self-awareness, self-criticism, humility and kenosis (emptying oneself) which can be difficult and painful.

Meet the Media Prophets Who Preach Christian Supremacy. (52:43)
Plus, Journalism in ‘Civil War’
Brooke Gladstone (On the Media) | Apr 19, 2024

Former president Trump says he wants to make America pray again. On this week’s On the Media, hear how Christian nationalism is shaping American politics. { Gladstone interviews Matthew D. Taylor, https://icjs.org/people/matthew-d-taylor/, author of soon to be published book "The Violent Take It by Force" }

Plus, what the new film Civil War...

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodesandarticles
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Matthew 11:12 "and the violent take it by force"
https://biblehub.com/matthew/11-12.htm
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Evangelical Leaders Condemn 'Radicalized Christian Nationalism'
Sarah McCammon | February 24, 20216:01 AM ET
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/24/970685909/evangelical-leaders-condemn-radicalized...

Evangelical Leaders Statement Condemning Christian Nationalism's role in the January 6th Insurrection
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScbvRNRgAcUo1UfZfxuBZHmv63FI8k2gnxxAaNV...

>16 margd:

Thanks, particularly for that last prophetic statement by evangelical leaders.

WIKIPEDIA:
"The Seven Mountain Mandate is part of dominionism.

The biblical base for the movement is derived from Revelation 17:1–18, wherein verse 9 reads, "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains". The seven areas that the movement believe influence society and that they seek to influence are
family,
religion,
education,
media,
entertainment,
business, and
government.
They believe that their mission to influence the world through these seven spheres is justified by Isaiah 2:2 "Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on the top of the mountains."

Followers believe that by fulfilling the Seven Mountain Mandate they can bring about the end times."

Christian Right Observer Weekly (Volume 12)
CROW's 7 stories on the Christian Right that you need read this week.
CROW | Apr 19, 2024

1. Christian Right Leader Tony Perkins {President, Family Research Council} Remains Confident that, if Re-elected, Trump Would Sign a National Anti-Abortion Bill

2. Examining the Links Between Leonard Leo and the Catholic Hardliners Leading Project 2025

3. Good News! Newly Funded Project (U CT) Will Map Resistance to Christian Nationalism

4. A Rogues Gallery Meets in Florida {Peter Thiel, Bambi Francisco Roizen, “Christian Nationalist” and Oklahoma State Superintendent of Public Education Ryan Walters (Bucks County, Pennsylvania), MAGA millionaire and aspiring oligarch Paul Martino (who has public education in his crosshairs), anti-(teachers) union Freedom Foundation President Aaron Withe, and James Lindsay, who the Southern Poverty Law Center identifies as “a leading voice in the reactionary anti-student inclusion, anti-LGBTQ, and conspiracy propaganda movements.”

5. NAR {New Apostolic Reformation*} ‘Don’t Mess With Our Kids’ Call to the Capitols Recap: Partners, Elected Officials, and the Movement’s Future

6. Million Women March: The Future Is the Esther’s Faceless Army

7. We Will Take Cities. We Will Take States. The Courage Tour and Lance Wallnau.

https://crownewsletter.substack.com/p/christian-right-observer-weekly-volume-fd1

* The New Apostolic Reformation is a theological belief and movement that combines elements of Pentecostalism, evangelicalism and the Seven Mountain Mandate to advocate for spiritual warfare to bring about Christian dominion over all aspects of society, and end or weaken the separation of church and state. NAR leaders often call themselves apostles and prophets. (Wikipedia)

>1 margd: What is it about evangelical Christian's that so frightens you and other progressive's? What evidence do you have that predicts a Trump assault on a peaceful transfer of power. Are you at all familiar with the recent hearings concerning the January 6th events? Perhaps it is best for all Christians to place their trust in God rather than any political party or political personality.

Not all Evangelicals. Some American Catholics also.

Read >16 margd:, >18 margd:, >19 margd:, etc.

As for the seventh "mountain" (government), read
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/conservatives-aim-to-restructure-u-s-gover... if you really want to know some of what liberals fear from Christian Nationalists.

>20 endaclon: Perhaps it is best for all Christians to place their trust in God rather than any political party or political personality

I agree with you completely. But surely the problem is that a lot of Christians are very emphatically placing their trust in a political party and/or political personality, and are conflating our faith with a particular political ideology?

>6 margd: Catholics justices dominate US Supreme Court

Leonard Leo

Leonard Leo is Chairman of CRC Advisors {formerly known as Creative Response Concepts Public Relations} and Co-Chairman of the Federalist Society {conservative and libertarian legal organization that advocates for a textualist and originalist interpretation of the U.S. Constitution}.

Leo joined the Federalist Society over 25 years ago...

Leonard has assisted two presidential administrations on judicial selection as an outside advisor, and participated in the Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, and Barrett Supreme Court selection and confirmation process as well as the outside coalition efforts in support of the Roberts and Alito U.S. Supreme Court confirmations.

Leo was appointed by President George W. Bush to three terms as chairman of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom.as chairman. He and was also a U.S. Delegate to the UN Council and UN Commission on Human Rights.

He and his wife have had seven children.

https://cicdc.org/speakers/leonard-leo/

The Real Origins of the Religious Right
RANDALL BALMER | May 27, 2014

...it wasn’t until 1979—a full six years after Roe—that evangelical leaders, at the behest of conservative activist Paul Weyrich, seized on abortion not for moral reasons, but as a rallying-cry to deny President Jimmy Carter a second term. Why? Because the anti-abortion crusade was more palatable than the religious right’s real motive: protecting segregated schools. So much for the new abolitionism.

...On June 30, 1971, the United States District Court for the District of Columbia issued its ruling in the case, now Green v. Kennedy/Connally ... The decision upheld the new IRS policy: “Under the Internal Revenue Code, properly construed, racially discriminatory private schools are not entitled to the Federal tax exemption provided for charitable, educational institutions, and persons making gifts to such schools are not entitled to the deductions provided in case of gifts to charitable, educational institutions.”

..The Green v. Connally ruling provided a necessary first step: It captured the attention of evangelical leaders , especially as the IRS began sending questionnaires to church-related “segregation academies,” including Falwell’s own Lynchburg Christian School, inquiring about their racial policies. Falwell was furious...

One such school, Bob Jones University—a fundamentalist college in Greenville, South Carolina—was especially obdurate...{(IRS) rescinded the school’s tax exemption.}

... hypothetical “moral majority” needed a catalyst—a standard around which to rally. For nearly two decades, Paul Weyrich, the late religious conservative political activist and co-founder of the Heritage Foundation, by his own account, had been trying out different issues, hoping one might pique evangelical interest: pornography, prayer in schools, the proposed Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution, even abortion.

...By the late 1970s, many Americans—not just Roman Catholics—were beginning to feel uneasy about the spike in legal abortions following the 1973 Roe decision. The 1978 Senate races demonstrated to Weyrich and others that abortion might motivate conservatives where it hadn’t in the past.

...leaders of the nascent religious right blamed the Democratic president for the IRS actions against segregated schools—even though the policy was mandated by Nixon, and Bob Jones University had lost its tax exemption a year and a day before Carter was inaugurated as president. Falwell, Weyrich and others were undeterred by the niceties of facts. In their determination to elect a conservative, they would do anything to deny a Democrat, even a fellow evangelical like Carter, another term in the White House.

...By 1980, even though Carter had sought, both as governor of Georgia and as president, to reduce the incidence of abortion, his refusal to seek a constitutional amendment outlawing it was viewed by politically conservative evangelicals as an unpardonable sin. Never mind the fact that his Republican opponent that year, Ronald Reagan, had signed into law, as governor of California in 1967, the most liberal abortion bill in the country. When Reagan addressed a rally of 10,000 evangelicals at Reunion Arena in Dallas in August 1980, he excoriated the “unconstitutional regulatory agenda” directed by the IRS “against independent schools,” but he made no mention of abortion. Nevertheless, leaders of the religious right hammered away at the issue, persuading many evangelicals to make support for a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion a litmus test for their votes.

...a Harris poll that suggested Carter would have won the popular vote by a margin of 1 percent had it not been for the machinations of the religious right. ... evangelicals, having helped propel Carter to the White House four years earlier, turned dramatically against him, their fellow evangelical, during the course of his presidency. And the catalyst for their political activism was not, as often claimed, opposition to abortion. Although abortion had emerged as a rallying cry by 1980, the real roots of the religious right lie not the defense of a fetus but in the defense of racial segregation.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107...

Evangelical leader destroys Trump like we've never seen before (YouTube)

>25 John5918: Like to hear more of that!

>26 margd: Not my style of preaching, but if that's what moves the evangelicals, so be it.

Toxic Hinduism is flourishing in India, the extremist PM Modi is poised to continue his fascist government at the expense of Chistians and Muslims, Hundreds of Churches have been burned and thousands of people have been assualted and murdered under this Nazi's regime. The propaganda put out by the US State department on its annual Human Rights report does not even mention the word Christian or Muslim, Those of you confused about the term "gaslighting" this report and the reality of the abuses committed by "Hindu Nationalists" would explain it to the tee. Modi the PM is an extremist an activist for the RSS which supports the Joe Goebels propaganda of Minorities must be treated like the Jews were treated in Europe. So The devout Roman Catholic of America and his State Department do not even mention an assualt of a Christian or Muslim, Then again why should he the head of his own Church has not even peeped about the atrocities in India. Modi is also a friend of Bergoglio's. Nazi hearts would swell with pride if they only knew how a Hindu Nationalist, an American President, and the Head of th Roman Catholic Church swallow Goebels propaganda "when you tell a huge lie keep repeating it eventually people will believe it....JMJ....

>28 brone:

Yes, thanks for raising the case of extremist Hindu nationalism. It has been very prominent in international (and US) news recently, eg here, here, here and here, and in the Catholic press here. In December 2023 the US Commission on International Religious Freedom expressed "alarm" at "India’s increased transnational targeting of religious minorities and those advocating on their behalf. Recent efforts by the Indian government to silence activists, journalists, and lawyers abroad pose a serious threat to religious freedom" (link), and has issued two more reports in March 2024 (link). Extremist religious nationalism is never a good thing, whether it be Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, Christian or anything else.

As for "Modi is also a friend of Bergoglio's", as far as I can see Modi met the pope in 2021, which is not unusual for a head of government, but I don't think that necessarily implies that they are "friends". In fact it is reported that one day before that meeting, the Vatican's Cardinal Miguel Ángel Ayuso Guixot released a message to Hindus that referred to the divisive nature of “hyper-nationalism” (link).

Author Interview: Christian author, warning of domestic terrorism, speaks directly to her community
NPR | May 1, 2024 5:08 AM ET
Heard on Morning Edition (6-minute)

NPR's Leila Fadel talks to Elizabeth Neumann about the rise of Christian extremism. Neumann served as a Homeland Security official in the Trump administration. Her new book is Kingdom of Rage.

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/01/1248403449/christian-author-warning-of-domestic-t...
_________________________________

Feminism, gay marriage, secularization--oh my! These are the kinds of boogey men that Christian Nationalists employ to recruit... Wolfe really gets to the point in last 5 minutes or so: "smash-mouth fundamentalism".

jennycohn@toad.social ✍🏻 📢 @jennycohn1 | 9:32 PM · Apr 30, 2024 {X}:
I write about elections & Christian Nationalism...

Trump/Heritage alum William Wolfe, a self-professed “Christian Nationalist,” says that “what we need is … smash-mouth fundamentalism...” {characterized by brute force without finesse (Merriam-Webster)} 1/
0:54 (https://twitter.com/jennycohn1/status/1785482299381055609)

2/ Here’s a link to the full video. SBC = Southern Baptist Convention, America’s largest evangelical denomination.
1:12:22 (https://youtu.be/HeqYRL_9bYE?si)

3/ “William Wolfe, a Self-Described ‘Christian Nationalist,’ Launches Effort to Take Over America’s Largest Evangelical Denomination” - 4/11/24 1/ #CROW https://open.substack.com/pub/crownewsletter/p/christian-right-observer-weekly-v...
1:03:27 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6hzRoOOkeQ)
...
19/ Trump/Heritage alum William Wolfe is a co-editor of the “Statement on Christian Nationalism” manifesto, as I reported for @BucksCoBeacon. Project 2025 leader Russ Vought has said he’s proud to work w/ him on “scoping out a sound Christian Nationalism.”

Shocking Online Manifesto Reveals Project 2025’s Link to a Coordinated ‘Christian Nationalism Project’
Jennifer Cohn | March 7, 2024

“The Statement on Christian Nationalism” seeks to implement a Scripture-based system of government whereby Christ-ordained “civil magistrates” exercise authority over the American public {Project 25}...

...In a social media post, Wolfe had called for an end to no-fault divorce and abortion and for reduced access to contraception. (Link to archived tweet.) Wolfe, who has attended Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, has also called himself a “Christian Nationalist.”...

https://buckscountybeacon.com/2024/03/shocking-online-manifesto-reveals-project-...

In Dec. 2016 Bergoglio is quoted as saying to a small group of confidants that "it is not to be excluded that I will enter history as the one who split the Catholic Church." His splainers claim he was just Bergoglio being Bergogluo. It was walked back. He may have been prophetic I personally think not. Open for debate for sure. When a Pope gives a private audience you can bet your house that the visitor is vetted and scrutinized so that no embarrasment should blow back on the Pope. Less than a year ago Bergoglio has a private meeting with Bill Clinton, alex Soros no need to say what these two Chauvinists advocate. Jimmy Martin proponent of the catholic rainbow Reich is a friend and frequent visitor, Jimmy suggests that the teaching of the Catholic Church is debatable just like his friend does when he says, "because it has not been accepted by the LGBTQP++community." Next Bergoglio has a private meeting in the Sistine Chapel with the great modern artist who submerged a crucifix in a jar of his own urine. Tell me progressives why on earth would Begoglio allow such an insulting meeting in a room of arguably the finest art ever created. The name of the piece of trash this blasphemer gave his "work" is "Piss Christ" In my opinion this episode was worse than the Pachamama and smudge dance incidents. Then of course we have the newly reformed Tucho whose literary contribution is "Heal me with your mouth. The art of kissing". Tucho now holds the prestigious office Joe Ratzinger helg under Wytola. A line from this classic "How was God so ruthless to give you that mouth. No one can resist it, hide it witch" Who was he addressing this to, you can bet it was a young person. As if Bergoglio hasn't been busy enough catering to the rainbow Reich, do we think it a coincidence that a holy bishop of Texas gets booted out of his diocese after he leads a rosary rally at Dodger Stadium to protest the blasphemy of Satanic men dressed as nuns to mock real religious sisters. This right under the noses of two cowardly Cardinals McElroy and Gomez who said nothing to offend these men pretending to be women. Yes these fakers babble on about DEI but when it comes to Traditional Catholics they get their chasables all in a knot, It takes a foriegn bishop from Spain to criticize the "Devout Catholic" president for desecrating the Catholic Church when he made the sign of the cross at a rally supporting the murder of innocent children, I've said it before if Biden's vocation was the priesthood he would be an American Cardinal today. I'm hoping the next Pope takes the name Leo XlV please God not Bergoglio ll....JMJ....

2017, so before Leo & Heritage had fully executed "hostile takeover of the supreme Court. Judging by subsequent events he wasn't joking...

Mudpuppy 🫶🏻🫶🏽🫶🏿🇺🇦🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈 @mudpuppy_16 | 10:14 PM · May 1, 2024 {X}:
Millennial. Vote 4 Biden or Never Vote Again.🖕🏻Leonard Leo. ❤️ NAFO....

‼️😳 Well, there you have it folks! Leonard Leo* in a 2017 lecture given at Acton Institute**:

“Thank you Chris for your very very kind introduction. I’ve seen that comment about the third of the Supreme Court. I prefer controlling interests, but we haven’t quite been able to launch a hostile takeover yet.” https://acton.org/video/leonard-leo-trump-administration-and-future-federal-judi...
0:23 (https://twitter.com/mudpuppy_16/status/1785855446907044336)

{Excerpt from May 11, 2017 Acton Institute lecture, "Leonard Leo on the Trump Administration and the future of the federal judiciary" (50:58) https://www.acton.org/video/leonard-leo-trump-administration-and-future-federal-...
----------------------------------------

* Leonard Leo serves as Executive Vice President and a member of the board of the Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy Studies, an organization of around 70,000 individuals that is premised on advancing limited, constitutional government. In that capacity, he has helped to build a nationwide infrastructure of lawyers, judges, and business leaders who seek to foster the application of our nation's Founding principles through the projects of the Society as well as other independent projects of mutual interest and concern in the legal and policy worlds on which they band together.

In addition to his work with the Society, Mr. Leo has served as an outside adviser to President Trump on the Supreme Court and related judicial selection and confirmation issues. He has helped lead a number of outside efforts in support of the confirmation of Neal Gorsuch to the Supreme Court, and organized the outside coalition efforts in support of the Roberts and Alito U.S. Supreme Court confirmations in 2005-2006,

Mr. Leo was appointed by President George W. Bush as well as the United States Senate to three terms to the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, where he served as chairman for three terms. He also served as a U.S. Delegate to the U.N. Commission and U.N. Council on Human Rights. He has been active in a number of Catholic organizations, serving as a member of the Board of Trustees of the Catholic University of America, as Chairman of the National Catholic Prayer Breakfast, and as a member of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta.

Mr. Leo was the recipient of the 2009 Bradley Prize, along with the other founders and directors of the Federalist Society, for his work and efforts in advancing freedom and the rule of law through the organization. He is the co-editor of Presidential Leadership: Rating the Best and the Worst in the White House (2004), as well as the author of opinion editorials in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Washington Post, among other publications.

Mr. Leo holds degrees from Cornell University and Cornell Law School. He presently resides in northern Virginia, where he and his wife Sally have raised their seven children. (https://www.acton.org/about/author/leonard-leo)

** The Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty is an American research and educational institution, or think tank, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, whose stated mission is "to promote a free and virtuous society characterized by individual liberty and sustained by religious principles". Its work supports free market economic policy framed within Judeo-Christian morality. It has been alternately described as conservative and libertarian. (Wikipedia)

An article in the Associated Press this week says. "Generations of Catholics who embraced the modernizing spark ignited in the 1960s by Vll, are increasingly giving way to religious conservatives who believe that the church has been twisted by change, with the premise of eternal salvation replaced by guitar masses, food pantries, casual indifference to church doctrine. This article from an organization far left of center of course gets a few things wrong hinting that conservatives are opposed to food banks iimplying they believe feeding the poor is a new age innovation, they mistakenly label this new hard to define movement dominated by the dynamism and youth of Catholic America. I have been telling you of this movement and am scoffed at as backward, Chistian Nationalist and acutually kicked of the Fake Roman Catholic site next door. Boomers are not happy, America and even "developing countries" are rebelling against the authors of the guitar and clown masses, I can even feel their frustration in here they have very few gimmicks left up their boomer sleves to fawn over. Yes we still get FS, AI, and kiss me on the mouth perverts but they are fading parish by parish. Today first friday, our church was full of childen singing the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, Sanctus in latin, replacing guitar masses and campfire songs and casual doctrines with a renewed effort off Confession, Eucharist, and eternal salvation. The church "we grew up in" post Vatll is rapidly changing recognizing the unreal world of boomer catholicism that has long been presented to them. It is hard for progressive boomers to accept that they are running out of gimmicks the kids aint buying, This can all be traced back to world youth day 1993 in Denver. Pre Francis, pre Trump, pre–Christian Nationalist. The Moto priori of Benedict not the FS of Bergoglio is their example. Progressives will not accept that we have not left the Church like the 30million anglicans who just separated from theirs. We know a Phillip Neri or a Leo XIV will come along. Finally, progressives will not admit what they see in backward America and Africa is a real manifestation of what Vatll should look like....JMJ....

>33 brone:

Thanks, yes, I saw that article, although I would hardly call AP "an organisation far left of centre". It's a globally-respected independent professional mainstream news organisation. I also think this particular article would have fitted better in your "Latin Mass, FBI, Scapulas, Superbowls" thread than in this one on Trump, but that's by the by. The article is here, in case anyone wants to read it in full.

The title says it all: "‘A step back in time': America’s Catholic Church sees an immense shift toward the old ways". This is about the US Catholic Church, not the global Church. Let me also point out that while the article concentrates on one particular view, that of "conservatives" for want of a better word, it also points out how this "conservatism" is discomfiting and driving away many other faithful US Catholics.

You constantly mention "guitar and clown masses" and "campfire songs", but that's a side of today's Catholicism which I really don't recognise. As I have often said to you, we all know there were some unfortunate experiments in the early days of the post-Vatican II reforms half a century ago before the relevant Church documents had been fully digested and understood, experiments which were never officially approved, but I just don't see that any more on any sort of regular basis. Maybe I go to mass in different milieux to you. Of course we also know there are still priests who flout the Church's liturgical instructions, whether it be the one (in Italy, was it?) who said mass last year on a floating air bed in the sea, or the ones in the USA who regularly say mass according to an antecedent liturgical rite which is no longer permitted, but these are the exceptions, not the norm. We also all know that mass can be and has been celebrated sloppily and badly whichever rite is used. If you want to complain about poor liturgy I would agree with you completely, but the answer is better liturgical education and praxis for both clergy and laity, not a step back towards an antecedent liturgy from which the Church moved on for good reasons. "The Church I grew up in" for my most formative years was the old pre-Vatican II Church, and let me assure you that the routine Tridentine liturgy was usually nothing like the version that you and other modern proponents of it laud through nostalgic rose-tinted spectacles. If, God forbid, the antecedent rite ever becomes widely and routinely used again, just wait and see how long it takes before it is celebrated sloppily and carelessly as it used to be (and as the current rite and any other rite in history has also been) and before the average Catholic in the pews becomes bored and disillusioned with it.

I'm sorry you think Africa is "backward" - that's rather a neo-colonialist stance. Actually Catholicism in Africa is vibrant, forward-looking and expanding. It is doctrinally "conservative" on sexual morality, in part because of African cultural values, but very keen on Catholic Social Doctrine and initiatives such as Small Christian Communities (which is the official pastoral model in much of Africa). It is fully on board with Synodality and with Pope Francis, and although the African Catholic Church has made it clear that they have reservations about a recent document on blessings, they have been at pains to emphasise that there is no rift with the Holy Father nor the Church. And since I "met" you online I have made a point of asking every African bishop I bump into whether there is any appetite for the Latin mass in their diocese, their nation or their continent. After the initial amazement that anyone would even dream of asking such a question has worn off, the answer is always a resounding "No".

>34 John5918: Amen. While the RC Church has the potential to be a big tent, several US and Cdn parishes I know have become less and less welcoming to those of us in the margins.

Years ago, chaperoning a middle school class associated with a progressive, diverse parish, I was impressed by rich variety in our area as our "progressive" kids toured a historic and dark ("Gothic") church, an Eastern Rite golden church, and a bustling Polish shrine and community.

While ignorant busybodies made themselves felt (IME) even in the progressive, diverse (bustling) parish, some souls apparently still find refuge there. From a 2018 review in Trip Advisor: "There's Catholic...and then there is Catholic. The priests at this parish are welcoming to everyone...they listen...they care...they acknowledge our differences and opinions...rare to find." Increasingly rare, I'm afraid...

>34 John5918: You know I don't think Africa is backward any more than I think America is backward the term Backward comes from Bergoglio. And you with impunity lay the origin of that nasty phrase at my doorstep. "i'm sorry you think Africa is Backward". "thats rather a neo colonial stance". You ask what gaslighting is, classic example is right here. Accuse the other guy of the offense you commit....JMJ....

>36 brone:

Pope Francis has used the word "backward" to describe some US Catholics, but I'd be very interested to see a quote from him saying that Africa is backward. As far as I know he has never said that, but if I'm wrong, I'd be grateful if you could cite an example.

I suppose there are one or two Catholics in Africa who would wish to have the Mass of Gregory V. LIke "some" American Catholics would but being from Africa and thinking like some backward American is somehow not backward must be the same reason he walked back FS its cultural you see....JMJ....

As you haven't yet delivered an example of Pope Francis describing Africa as "backward", here are a few which suggest the opposite: Pope Francis: the first post-colonial papacy to deliver messages that resonate with Africans; Pope Francis tells rich world to stop stifling Africa’s progress; Pope Francis calls on Africa to be the 'protagonist of its destiny'; etc, etc.

As for his use of the term "backward" regarding the USA, he referred not to the US Catholic Church as such, but to those who replace faith with ideology and have a poor understanding of how Catholic doctrine allows for change over time: Pope says some ‘backward’ conservatives in US Catholic Church have replaced faith with ideology. I'm sure we both agree that ideology should not replace nor be conflated with our faith.

I'm not sure why you think that some Catholics in Africa would want to return to the antecedent rite of the mass. I've lived in Africa for the best part of fifty years and I've never met one. One of the first things the missionaries did when evangelising in Africa was to study and write down the local languages, long before the vernacular was used in the mass - many African languages only exist in written form today because of the efforts of dedicated Catholic and Protestant missionaries, including some of my own colleagues. Some languages are still not well represented in written form, and the great translation project continues. Latin was a European language. After the end of the Roman Empire it was generally used by the educated elite, not the common people, but it persisted in the Catholic Church until relatively recently. It would surprise me if Africans who are still dealing with the aftermath of European colonialism (where schoolchildren and government employees were often forced to use European languages and could be punished if they spoke their own language) as well as with ongoing neo-colonialism would want to revert to yet another old European language.

Sunday Mass in Africa is generally vibrant, with churches packed and overflowing, with respectful and dignified singing and dancing to good African music and instruments (although there's often also an electronic keyboard where circumstances permit), lots of youth, children and young families, and with no sign of the "clowns" or "campfire songs" which according to you seem to be the dominant form of liturgy everywhere in the USA. Sad.

In >33 brone: you mention a church "full of childen singing the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, Sanctus in latin" (to be pedantic, the Kyrie is Greek, not Latin, but I know what you mean), as if that is a rare thing, but in fact Latin chants and parts of the mass are still sung in many Catholic churches in the world (albeit not so often in Africa). As we have frequently noted elsewhere, this fulfils the Catholic Church's authoritative teaching on the liturgy in Sacrosanctum Concilium, that "the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites" (36.1), "But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants" (36.2) and "care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing" (23). This is all precisely what has happened. The "use of the mother tongue" has been extended to the "other parts of the liturgy" including the scripture readings, prayers and chants, but Latin (and Greek, and in the case of "alleluia", Hebrew) chants, songs and exclamations can still be heard. And we can thank the ecumenical Taizé community for a whole new repository of Latin chants which are frequently sung in Catholic churches throughout Europe (and I have certainly been at masses in the USA where they are sung).

And finally, the whole mass can still be celebrated in Latin freely and without restrictions as the definitive text of the current liturgy, from which all vernacular translations derive, is Latin, so anyone who craves mass in Latin can have it (if you can find a priest who is willing and able to do so). What is not permitted except under certain restricted conditions is the old (antecedent) version of the liturgy which was superseded by Sacrosanctum Concilium and by the new liturgy promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970. Latin was not the sole nor even the primary reason the antecedent rite was superseded. As SC says, "the liturgy is made up of immutable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change. These not only may but ought to be changed with the passage of time if they have suffered from the intrusion of anything out of harmony with the inner nature of the liturgy or have become unsuited to it. In this restoration, both texts and rites should be drawn up so that they express more clearly the holy things which they signify; the Christian people, so far as possible, should be enabled to understand them with ease and to take part in them fully, actively, and as befits a community" (2), and "The rites should be distinguished by a noble simplicity; they should be short, clear, and unencumbered by useless repetitions; they should be within the people's powers of comprehension, and normally should not require much explanation" (34). Latin is still the normative language of the mass and can still be freely used for the new rite, and indeed is celebrated daily every weekday in England's premier church, Westminster Cathedral in London.

>28 brone: Hindu nationalism

An interesting article in al Jazeera today about an Indian historian who is challenging Hindu nationalism by critically examining the myths which drive this sort of religious nationalism and which are propagated and reinforced on social media (just as is happening in the USA and other places where right wing religious nationalism is developing). Unsurprisingly, "perhaps the biggest testament to her mounting influence lies in the threats and abuse she routinely receives for her videos. They’re a badge of honour she shrugs off, but would rather not have to wear. 'I often get such death threats. Rape remarks keep coming,' she says. 'They no longer work on me.'” Sadly the same treatment is often meted out to those who challenge Christian and other forms of right wing religious nationalism.

Really! right wing bible toting nationalists camping in the "backwardness" of America "developing". Hmmn? Hindu Nationalist now there you have a real threat with nationalists. You I think are posting from the other side of the world but seem to be an expert on the right-wing Christian nationalism developing here as you equate them with the same treatment meted out to those who challenge hindu nationalism and other forms of right wing nationalism. I love my religion and I love my country and if that is what you mean by Christian Nationalist then i'm your huckleberry. Please inform me where are "rape remarks" being made in America? I do know from credible sources that kidnapping, rape, and murder are a problem all over your continent....JMJ....

>41 brone: where are "rape remarks" being made in America?

Well, one of the leading icons of US right wing Christian nationalism is currently in court facing rape allegations (as well as other alleged crimes), and is on record admitting to sexual assault ("Grab ’em by the pussy"). I've just googled "rape threats from US right wing" and it gives a lot of links.

As introduced by our friend and Mayor of Ontario's Frontenac Islands, Judy Greenwood-Speers: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QlIkzQkdkGEv9r4sXC_4nAHXmNeLFH1G/view?usp=shari...

May 16 is Moose Hide Campaign Day in Canada, which calls on all of us to take tangible action in our own communities to end gender violence...
https://moosehidecampaign.ca/

In Portland Ore. and in the diocese of Makurdi nationalists strike to prevent Catholics their right to worship God. St Patrick's parishioners were greeted to vandalism and obscene slogans painted on the church and sidewalks of St Patrick's by abortion nationalists on May 7th, this the 252nd reported act of thuggery in the US, in just two years the crimes by these pro abortionists are much higher as many go unreported for fear of further attacks. In Africa the diocese of Makurdi in Nigeria closed the Father Angus Frazier Memorial high school to protect students from muslim nationalist gunmen who "shot up" the school in the middle of the night on Apr 28th....AMDG....

>44 brone:

Yes, extremist religious nationalism is to be condemned wherever, however and by whomever it occurs.

Edited to add: And speaking of Nigeria, here's a report of another murderous tragedy just two days ago: Worshippers locked in Nigeria mosque and set on fire (BBC). My thoughts and prayers are with all those affected, including the perpetrator.

Josh Hawley seeks revival of ‘Our Christian Nation,’ condemns ‘atheist left’
Steve Rabey | February 8, 2024

...{US Senator Josh} Hawley says he rejects some forms of Christian nationalism, such as making the Constitution echo the Apostles’ Creed, electing a “Protestant Franco,” or living in ethno-racial separatism.

Instead, he calls for “a revival of Christian influence in America” by “Christian believers who are willing to bring the gospel to bear on every corner of our culture and politics.”

Hawley counts himself among the believers trying to do just that, and he has revived his own faith to accommodate Donald Trump, becoming the first senator to sign on to Trump’s effort to block the counting of electoral votes on Jan. 6, 2021.

...Yvette Walker, opinion editor of the Kansas City Star, called out Hawley in a piece titled, “Which Is It, Josh Hawley: ‘Our Christian Nation’ or Day 1 Dictator?”

“Does Trump deserve to lead ‘Our Christian Nation’?” asked Walker: “Is Missouri Sen. Josh Hawley having an identity crisis? Or does he just want to have it both ways? There’s the Hawley who stands with Donald Trump. The fist-pumping Hawley on Jan. 6, 2021, in Washington, D.C. The election-denier Hawley. … And then there’s this Josh Hawley: the one who wrote a 4,300-word treatise on ‘Our Christian Nation.’”

Walker doesn’t see how Hawley’s vision of “fresh Christian thinking — and Christian action” comports with endorsing Trump for a second term. “Kowtowing to a leader who has harassed women, incited an insurrection, emboldened the intolerance of others and endangered our democracy does not match the tenets of these words,” she wrote. “Sen. Hawley, if you, as a deep-thinking man of faith, ascribe to your idea of a Christian nation and the teachings of Jesus Christ, I implore you to work with the Republican Party and find a new leader to follow.”...

https://baptistnews.com/article/josh-hawley-seeks-revival-of-our-christian-natio...

"His wife, Erin Hawley, is an attorney with the Focus-aligned Alliance Defending Freedom, the powerful $104 million Christian legal group. She heads up ADF’s latest Supreme Court case, which seeks a nationwide ban on abortion drugs used for decades."