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2razzamajazz
God speak to us in many subtle ways. Many instances in OT, Moses was one of the bibilical
person to esperience.
Read - How To Hear from God - Hearing God's Voice:
http://christianity.about.com/od/womens/esources/a/hearingfromgod.htm
person to esperience.
Read - How To Hear from God - Hearing God's Voice:
http://christianity.about.com/od/womens/esources/a/hearingfromgod.htm
3timspalding
Benedict is not a particularly mystical person. His strengths lie elsewhere, for sure. If true, that would be quite a twist.
Personally, I think it was a good move for the church, and a good career move too, as it were. I hope he establishes a precedent. No pope should feel obligated to step down, but they shouldn't feel obligated to stay on either. It took a pope with a really deep sense of history, and an ecclesiology that stressed ministries, not ministers, to do it.
Personally, I think it was a good move for the church, and a good career move too, as it were. I hope he establishes a precedent. No pope should feel obligated to step down, but they shouldn't feel obligated to stay on either. It took a pope with a really deep sense of history, and an ecclesiology that stressed ministries, not ministers, to do it.
4ThomasRichard
>3 timspalding: - "Benedict is not a particularly mystical person." That sounds strange to me. I hear a very deep prayerfulness in him - most clearly in his later writings, but apparent in very early ones as well. I sense a contemplative heart in the man - one that knows experientially the fundamental truth of Christian Faith, that it requires an authentic and transforming encounter with the Person Jesus.
As one small example of what I mean - speaking of Paul's "conversion" in Acts:
Paul "never interprets this moment as an event of conversion." This is because, the Pope contended, "this change of his life, this transformation of his whole being was not the result of a psychological process, of a maturation or intellectual and moral evolution, but it came from outside: It was not the result of his thinking but of the encounter with Jesus Christ. In this sense it was not simply a conversion, a maturing of his 'I,' rather, it was death and resurrection for himself: A life of his died and a new one was born with the Risen Christ. …
(http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-christianity-an-encounter-with-a-person)
As one small example of what I mean - speaking of Paul's "conversion" in Acts:
Paul "never interprets this moment as an event of conversion." This is because, the Pope contended, "this change of his life, this transformation of his whole being was not the result of a psychological process, of a maturation or intellectual and moral evolution, but it came from outside: It was not the result of his thinking but of the encounter with Jesus Christ. In this sense it was not simply a conversion, a maturing of his 'I,' rather, it was death and resurrection for himself: A life of his died and a new one was born with the Risen Christ. …
(http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/pope-christianity-an-encounter-with-a-person)
5enevada
#4: "Benedict is not a particularly mystical person."
Tim is playing armchair psychologist again.
Personally I have found Benedict/Ratzinger to be full of surprises. Some of his writing and thought is beyond my grasp - but I think the passage you quote is very apt: It was not the result of his thinking but of the encounter with Jesus Christ. (I think that this is true in all mystical encounters to varying degrees, ego is vanquished.)
Tim is playing armchair psychologist again.
Personally I have found Benedict/Ratzinger to be full of surprises. Some of his writing and thought is beyond my grasp - but I think the passage you quote is very apt: It was not the result of his thinking but of the encounter with Jesus Christ. (I think that this is true in all mystical encounters to varying degrees, ego is vanquished.)
6ThomasRichard
>5 enevada: - And one of his most attractive characteristics, to me, is the way he brings together both penetrating and precise theological insight, with a child-like simplicity. That, in my humble opinion, is the defining mark of a contemplative. May God bless him, in this time of extended prayer! And may his communion with the Lord pass through him and on to the upbuilding and maturation of the whole Church.
7nathanielcampbell
I wonder if this could be comparable to the way in which Thomas Aquinas left off finishing the Summa near the end of his life because some type of prayerful/mystical/spiritual experience convinced him to focus on his prayer life more than on writing.
8timspalding
>5 enevada:
I get this impression from reading his books and speeches, and from things like his introduction to that book about private revelation (can't find it in my library, which bothers me). Psychology can't be reduced to a Google search, but I think it's notable that two of the most recent book-length studies of the pope, by Allen and by Rowland, contain no mentions of the word or variations, except as it applies to some historical character and Benedict's analysis of them. I very much doubt there's much to support in the raft of first-person interview books, or his autobiography. He's an intellectual—the kind of guy who brings 20,000 books in the papal apartments. He's a lecturer. He writes rich but dry books. He's got an enormous body of writings, and they simple do NOT tend toward the mystical.
FWIW, Richard, "contemplative" is not a synonym with mystical.
I get this impression from reading his books and speeches, and from things like his introduction to that book about private revelation (can't find it in my library, which bothers me). Psychology can't be reduced to a Google search, but I think it's notable that two of the most recent book-length studies of the pope, by Allen and by Rowland, contain no mentions of the word or variations, except as it applies to some historical character and Benedict's analysis of them. I very much doubt there's much to support in the raft of first-person interview books, or his autobiography. He's an intellectual—the kind of guy who brings 20,000 books in the papal apartments. He's a lecturer. He writes rich but dry books. He's got an enormous body of writings, and they simple do NOT tend toward the mystical.
FWIW, Richard, "contemplative" is not a synonym with mystical.
9ThomasRichard
>8 timspalding: The relationship between contemplation and mystical experience is one that deserves more discussion, but not from me at this time. However, I paste below a portion of an excellent and definitive work on spirituality, The Three Ages of the Interior Life, Fr. R. Garrigou-Lagrange. In this portion, the author is discussion the Illuminative Stage of the spiritual life - the Age of the Proficients. In this stage, infused contemplation begins - the beginning of the experience of mystical theology, of mystical prayer as opposed to ascetical prayer. Perhaps you can hear something of the interconnectedness of contemplation and mystical life in this portion.
+++++QuoteBegins
The contemplation of divine things may be greatly hindered by self-sufficiency which leads a man to think he already knows the interior life, when, as a matter of fact, he still has much to learn. The study of books will never replace prayer; for this reason the great doctors of the Church have declared that they learned more in prayer at the foot of the crucifix or near the tabernacle than in the most learned works. Books give the letter and explain it; intimate prayer obtains the spirit which vivifies, the interior light which sometimes illuminates in an instant principles often repeated, but whose universal radiation had not been grasped. Many things in Christian life are illuminated, for example, in the light of St. Paul's words: "What hast thou that thou hast not received?" (6) This principle is the basis of humility, gratitude, and true love of God, that we may respond to God's love for us. In the same way we then increasingly understand the profound meaning of these words: God is the Author of being, of life, the Author of salvation, of grace, of final perseverance.
Such is, though very imperfectly expressed, the knowledge of God which proficients need and which is found in the illuminative way. This period, in which the soul begins to contemplate God in the spiritual mirror of the mysteries of salvation, already surpasses the ascetical life; it is a beginning of the mystical life. A denial of this fact would be a failure to recognize the grace of God. It would likewise be a failure to recognize it if one should deny the mystical character of The Imitation in which all interior souls may find their nourishment. This mystical character is a sign that the infused contemplation of the mysteries, which is discussed in this book, is in the normal way of sanctity.
(http://www.christianperfection.info/tta55.php#bk2)
+++++QuoteEnds
I also humbly suggest my own book on the stages of prayer, The Ordinary Path to Holiness, which discusses the whole journey of prayer, of course including contemplation or mystical prayer.
+++++QuoteBegins
The contemplation of divine things may be greatly hindered by self-sufficiency which leads a man to think he already knows the interior life, when, as a matter of fact, he still has much to learn. The study of books will never replace prayer; for this reason the great doctors of the Church have declared that they learned more in prayer at the foot of the crucifix or near the tabernacle than in the most learned works. Books give the letter and explain it; intimate prayer obtains the spirit which vivifies, the interior light which sometimes illuminates in an instant principles often repeated, but whose universal radiation had not been grasped. Many things in Christian life are illuminated, for example, in the light of St. Paul's words: "What hast thou that thou hast not received?" (6) This principle is the basis of humility, gratitude, and true love of God, that we may respond to God's love for us. In the same way we then increasingly understand the profound meaning of these words: God is the Author of being, of life, the Author of salvation, of grace, of final perseverance.
Such is, though very imperfectly expressed, the knowledge of God which proficients need and which is found in the illuminative way. This period, in which the soul begins to contemplate God in the spiritual mirror of the mysteries of salvation, already surpasses the ascetical life; it is a beginning of the mystical life. A denial of this fact would be a failure to recognize the grace of God. It would likewise be a failure to recognize it if one should deny the mystical character of The Imitation in which all interior souls may find their nourishment. This mystical character is a sign that the infused contemplation of the mysteries, which is discussed in this book, is in the normal way of sanctity.
(http://www.christianperfection.info/tta55.php#bk2)
+++++QuoteEnds
I also humbly suggest my own book on the stages of prayer, The Ordinary Path to Holiness, which discusses the whole journey of prayer, of course including contemplation or mystical prayer.
10ThomasRichard
>7 nathanielcampbell: I suspect they both experienced fundamentally the same thing - the transforming Presence of God. Light so bright and penetrating, that all their outward works dimmed into nothing. I think Aquinas said it made all his writings "straw."
11timspalding
CNS (via NCR): Retired pope's secretary says 'mystical experience' story is untrue
http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/retired-popes-secretary-says-mystical-experien...
http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/retired-popes-secretary-says-mystical-experien...
Archbishop Georg Ganswein, retired Pope Benedict XVI's longtime personal secretary, said a story about the pope resigning after a "mystical experience" was completely invented.
12ThomasRichard
>11 timspalding: - After reading this on your cited page...
"Some Vatican officials and Vatican watchers were surprised by Zenit's report of Pope Benedict telling an anonymous visitor that his decision was the result of some form of extraordinary "mystical experience" rather than a decision made after long and careful thought and deep prayer. Catholics traditionally would consider that kind of intense prayer a "mystical experience," though not something extraordinary."
... I'm not so sure what actually happened, and what the former pope actually said and intended. That word "extraordinary" is important, and is possible the key. Benedict said clearly that he had no visions or etc. - but that is what many associate with the phrase "mystical experience." Even though, as the article correctly says, "Catholics traditionally would consider that kind of intense prayer a "mystical experience," though not something extraordinary."
The confusion and possible correction for public consumption might be attributed to a lack of understanding of the traditional understanding of mystical/contemplative prayer.
"Some Vatican officials and Vatican watchers were surprised by Zenit's report of Pope Benedict telling an anonymous visitor that his decision was the result of some form of extraordinary "mystical experience" rather than a decision made after long and careful thought and deep prayer. Catholics traditionally would consider that kind of intense prayer a "mystical experience," though not something extraordinary."
... I'm not so sure what actually happened, and what the former pope actually said and intended. That word "extraordinary" is important, and is possible the key. Benedict said clearly that he had no visions or etc. - but that is what many associate with the phrase "mystical experience." Even though, as the article correctly says, "Catholics traditionally would consider that kind of intense prayer a "mystical experience," though not something extraordinary."
The confusion and possible correction for public consumption might be attributed to a lack of understanding of the traditional understanding of mystical/contemplative prayer.
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