The erotic as part of the human condition

Hello everybody,

Just joined. I'm very interested in the way sex, eroticism are written into the fabric of a novel, very much like reading strong physical, sensual books - have 'soft' spots for Walt Whitman and James Joyce's Ulysses because of this. Anyway, I've read some of Anais Nin, but ultimately it bores me! She writes very well about sex and sensually, but.....that's all there is, she's a one-trick pony (oh no, let's not bring in the poor pony). What I need is a book which combines sex, psychology, the joys and disappointments of life, the sublime and the ordinary, life and death, what the characters have for breakfast, whether they're afraid to die, etc. Sex is an important part of it, but it's not the whole story. But it has to be there, that's why i've no time for books which don't have sex in them, such as, to name a completely arbitrary example, those of Terry Pratchett. I need Eros, but I also need Thanatos, and e/thing in between. What do other people think? Am I in the wrong group? Am i undersexed? Will i go to heaven when I die? What will i have for my dinner tonight? Will i masturbate before I go to sleep tonight? Will i ever fall in love? Will i ever be ruler of the world? Why is my nose so big? etc, etc. :)

You raise an interesting issue. Eco says if you are waiting for the plot to get out of the way of the sex, it is pornography (kind of like waiting for the story to get out of the way of the punch line in a joke).

The first book I ever read that took sex and death seriously was Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein. I knew the book had an effect on me when I started looking at certain girls differently after I had read it. (I.e. finding them attractive when previously I had not given them a second look.) I guess that is another way of saying it broadened my sexual horizons. (At the same time I was reading a lot of Kurt Vonnegut, and so Montana Wildhack was also on my mind!)

I dont need sex in a book to keep it interesting, and sometimes I find it tends to make boring books slightly bearable (the latest example of that being The Witch of Cologne). If Frodo had slept with Sam, I dont think that would have added anything to The Lord of the Rings for me.

But I am always on the look out for books that are truly erotic, and by that I mean they help me understand my sexual self a little better. Those books are hard to find. (I am tempted to play with Flannery O'Conner here--A Hard Book is Easy to Find...never mind.

Is the erotic exploring where the Other is not the tool of your pleasure, but the reverse, where the pleasure is the tool , the bridge, linking 2 voyagers, who dare to bare their whole selves, who see their sexual Text composed in both word and deed in the Context of their zetetic spirit, and where the focus is not on the un-OWN-ed parts - either of mere reductionist porn, nor on the demonised, feared parts of the puritan ? The erotic celebrates the fearless search, and the rich whole to be encountered by full and free persons.

glabrous, what you've described is one of the reasons i like Jacqueline Carey so much. (You might try Kushiel's Dart.) There's sex and eroticism, but there's also espionage, spirituality, adventure, fantasy -- a wonderful mix.

I just finished Kushiel's Dart. It was delicious feast. There were some chapters that I put off reading, just letting the anticipation build. But then, there is a big story behind that one.

glabrous: I think you just described Henry Miller. Try Sexus (Rosy Crucifixion I).

I think that the erotic is just another branch of taste. Some people like detective stories, some people hate them. Some people like to be sexually aroused at some level by what they read, some people don't, and this often for a variety of highly personal reasons. I think it's in the nature of the erotic component of writing that people are more likely to be offended, in the way that many don't like having some kinds of sexuality in others thrust in their face. Some of these react to their dislike by labelling what they don't like as 'pornography', even though a satisfactory definition of pornography has always been conspcuously lacking.

It is often pointed out that erotic literature often lacks subtlety of plot, or characterisation, but is this not simply a matter of taste?

Incidentally, glabrous (one of my favourite fleshly adjectives!), Nin has at least two ponies. Try her Seduction of the Minotaur, a wonderfully rich atmospheric work, with hardly any 'sexy scenes'.

I come from a background, upbringing and marriage in which sex is repressed, or treated almost as a part of the human condition with which we must put up, but handle quietly, and do not acknowledge.

In more recent years we are constantly reading of gov't officials, business leaders and others, outside of the arts, performance, and sports world, whose humanity is being exposed, to the point where the peccadillos re: sex are not even alarming any further - rather it is the things they do in pursuit of this part of the human experience and drive that are now more shocking than their actual indiscretions.

So, where I come from a segment of society where the fact of who we are and what drives us and occupies our minds and hearts, intertwined with all our angst and joy, is pushed aside, ignored, or suffered/put up with, it is refreshing, and much more honest and complete to read authors who acknowledge and explore our drives, our continual sizing and evaluating each other, and the actual ways with which we deal with our sexuality, whether it be restrained, disciplined, enjoyed, even celebrated, in the varying portions or extremes which all of us are comfortable, in the many varying levels, directions and outlets of humanity. To ignore it altogether in literature seems incomplete, and I, with many of you, am further captivated by stories and situations which include the full gamut of humanity and the varied motivations which we all face.

And yeah, I enjoy the vicarious retreat into things that passed me by, or will probably never be part of my own experience.

>8 ChaseM:

I appreciate the honesty you've shown, ChaseM, in describing what I see as your relationship with erotica. You're right about the hypocrisy shown by people who see themselves (and are widely seen) as leaders in some sense.

So much of literature attracts us because it paints for us a scenario in which our imagining of participation allows us the frisson of experience without the actual commitment. So why should people feel shame in admitting their inclusion of sexual emotions in this process?

CliffordDorset,

You wrote that "It is often pointed out that erotic literature often lacks subtlety of plot, or characterisation, but is this not simply a matter of taste?"

And immediately I couldn't help thinking that erotica is certainly not the only genre where you can find those faults! :)

Agreed! Again, a matter of taste. But in the case at hand, people make a decision about each particular book, whether to call it 'erotic literature' or 'pornography'.

As with many things related to do with 'sex' as a subject, people experience strong reactions that depend on the individual, and that are probably related to how much the book arouses them sexually, and (probably more) their particular perception of the 'joy' and 'shame' associated with that arousal.

I find the study of this quite fascinating, not least in the ever-present difficulty in separating my subjective responses from objectivity!

One of the most difficult observations to make when researching, reading or enjoying the human sexual experience is actually defining where that line between "normal" and fetish/erotic/pornography lies.

What I consider normal in my experience is way out in the extreme for others....it is a highly complex area!

Cultural practices and religious influences, the nature of our upbringing, our own juvenile sexual experiences - all of these factors (and no doubt many more) will influence how it is that we regard what it is we read.

There is definitely a place for this type of literature in our libraries - it is futile to deny a fundamental part of the human condition.

>12 australwind: Agreed!

I love that line about the difficulty of making observations " ... when ... enjoying the human sexual experience ... "

I couldn't agree more! I find my handwriting simply goes to pieces ....

I love a man with a sense of humour!