Historians on Asian culture.

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Historians on Asian culture.

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1lilisin
Editado: Dic 14, 2008, 12:31 pm

As an undergrad I took a class called "Religion and Rebellion in Modern East Asia" as one of the requirements for my Japanese major. In it, I read a book called God's Chinese Son: The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom of Hong Xiuquan by Jonathan D. Spence. It was an excellent historic narrative on the mid-19th century Taiping Rebellion.

Has anybody else read Jonathan Spence's books? He is a professor of Chinese history and I really enjoy his style and would like to read more. I was wondering which of his novels I should attack next.

Also, as a once Japanese major, I would like to be introduced to a similar writing historian of Japanese culture. Does anybody have any recommendations?

2Larxol
Dic 12, 2008, 4:07 pm

I'm not sure if the style matches, but I enjoy Eiji Yoshikawa. Big historical books, rather episodic, reflecting their origin as serials.

3gscottmoore
Dic 12, 2008, 11:55 pm

I'll second the recommendation of Eiji Yoshikawa. I love those things. "Musashi" is one, Taiko I like even better. His retelling of Heiki Monogatari--not so much. Poorly translated, I figure.

-- Gerry

4dcozy
Dic 14, 2008, 4:43 am

Has Jonathan Spence written novels? I thought he stuck strictly to history.

5lilisin
Dic 14, 2008, 12:30 pm

Perhaps I should have written books, not novels. His writing is so fluid that it was easy to write novel. I'll edit my post now.

6slickdpdx
Dic 14, 2008, 8:51 pm

I second the God's Chinese Son recommendation! I have Treason by the Book but haven't opened it yet.

7Periodista
Editado: Ene 14, 2009, 3:09 am

Spence is so prolific and ranges over a lot of periods. Just about anything by him is good.

The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci is about one of the first Jesuits to settle in Beijing. This would be late 16th century.

For a good introduction to the history of 20th century China, get The Gate of Heavenly Peace. He gets you up to speed on the various reform movements but, best of all, he follows the fate of various writers who came of age in the heady atmosphere of the 1920's.

Can't recall the details, but the one about Western advisers, To Change China, was disappointing.

Look in a library for some of the books of China photographs he edited.

8lilisin
Ene 14, 2009, 12:39 pm

I did end up buying Eiji Yoshikawa's Taiko and am waiting for a good time to start it.

I'm still waiting to get a Jonathan Spence book since that requires me to order online (cannot find him in the bookstores) but I'm thinking I'll get The Gate of Heavenly Peace (thanks periodista).

9walbat
Ene 27, 2009, 5:34 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite

10walbat
Ene 27, 2009, 5:34 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite unique

11walbat
Ene 27, 2009, 5:34 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite unique among

12walbat
Ene 27, 2009, 5:35 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite unique among historians

13walbat
Ene 27, 2009, 5:35 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite unique among historians of

14walbat
Ene 27, 2009, 5:35 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite unique among historians of China

15walbat
Ene 27, 2009, 5:35 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite unique among historians of China ins

16walbat
Ene 27, 2009, 5:35 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite unique among historians of China in

17walbat
Editado: Ene 27, 2009, 5:53 pm

I second Periodista's opinion that "just about anything" by Spence is good. In fact, I would take out the "just about." Spence is quite unique among serious historians of China in his writing style and his ability to draw out the meanings of specific times, places and individuals and apply them to the broader themes of Chinese history. He also has an eye for a good story.

Besides those books already listed, other interesting historical tales by Spence include Return to Dragon Mountain: Memories of a Late Ming Man, The Death of Woman Wang, and The Question of Hu.

Turning the lense in the other direction, Spence's The Chan's Great Continent: China in Western Minds explores European and American fascination with China.

Finally, in addition to The Gate of Heavenly Peace, which focuses on the 20th Century, Spence's The Search for Modern China is, I think, still the best survey of Chinese history from the Ming Dynasty to the Tiananmen Massacre, though it is now nearly 20 years old. It's written more in a text-book style, and runs to 747 pages of text.

A book similar to many of Spence's, adopting a narrow focus in terms of time and place in order to elucidate much broader historical themes, is 1587, A Year of No Significance: The Ming Dynasty in Decline by Ray Huang. It also is clearly a competitor for the Most Ironic Title Prize.

18elbgwn
Editado: Feb 10, 2009, 10:35 am

I have read a lot of Jonathan Spence, and for some reason found his latest to be sort of tiresome, but I loved Treason by the Book. I am a lawyer, and it is about a legal case, but I know that a lot of non-lawyers like this book, too.

19slickdpdx
Editado: Feb 10, 2009, 11:43 am

Matteo Ricci looks really good! What about Simon Ley's Chinese Shadows?

20dcozy
Feb 13, 2009, 6:09 pm

Simon Leys's book is a good read, but, although he draws on history to support the case he makes, it's more of a polemic (one that does make some telling points) than a history. I think it was Paul Theroux who referred to Chinese Shadows as "China in a bad mood."

And "Simon Leys" is, of course, the pseudonym of Pierre Ryckmans.

21nobooksnolife
Feb 13, 2009, 11:29 pm

re 19 and 20...I recall reading Chinese Shadows, probably when it first came out in 1977, and all I can remember is that it was one of the few books about modern China under Mao that was available in mainstream bookstores in the US. My copy is packed away somewhere, but after reading these posts I'd like to look at it again from today's vantage point. I never knew "Simon Leys" was a pen name; thanks, dcozy.

22dcozy
Feb 14, 2009, 12:25 am

I'm surprised to read that Chinese Shadows was one of the few books on Mao's China available in mainstream bookshops in the US in the '70s. The book is largely a reaction to the lionization of Mao and the cultural revolution then current among certain intellectuals. It's been years since I've looked into it, but as I recall, most of Leys's targets were European. I can't imagine he would have had anything good to say about the American Edgar Snow, of Red Star Over China fame, though I can't recall if he actually mentions him.

23nobooksnolife
Feb 14, 2009, 1:40 am

@22...maybe I'm giving a 'frog in the pond' view of life in the 70s. There were few bookstores in my hometown (Las Vegas) at that time. (Without meaning to be unkind, the bare truth is that LV is not an intellectual center). The best bookstore was Dalton's in the Boulevard Mall, which was also the only indoor mall at that time. The county library wasn't worth much, and I didn't have access to the university library, but I doubt it was much better. It's painful to remember the days before internet, when all you had was what you could find in the local stores.

As a college student in the 70s, I had read Red Star Over China and was subscribing to "China Reconstructs" and "Chinese Literature" from the PRC. There was a growing interest in the "US-China Peoples' Friendship Association (??) which had just gained ground following Nixon's trip to Beijing in '73. By this exposure, I was forming a fairly rosy picture of life in the PRC. Around that time; however, I found a pb of Revenge of Heaven by Ken Ling which was (for me) the first 'eyewitness' account in English of the Cultural Revolution I had ever seen. I must have lost it, or maybe it's also in storage in Nevada. Chinese Shadows was, as you say, a reaction against this popular rosy view.

I feel really old now, so I think I'll take a nap. :)

24dcozy
Feb 16, 2009, 6:44 am

nobooksnolife:

I wonder if you've read Dave Hickey's essay on Las Vegas. As I recall it's the first one in his collection Air Guitar. He likes LV, where he's lived and taught for some years, and is laugh-out-loud funny writing about it.

(Sorry, I know I'm drifting off topic.

25lilisin
Jun 3, 2009, 4:49 am

Just wanted to update you guys in that I'm reading Taiko right now and am about halfway through. Insofar I'm thoroughly enjoying the book. It has been wonderful spending a couple of hours at the end of the day plunging into feudal Japan and reading about Hideyoshi. Due to my Japanese studies I was already fairly familiar with the three famous generals but this book has taken my knowledge of the period above and beyond what I had hoped. Quite engrossing. While I'm not having trouble reading this, I can see it being difficult for those who are not used to reading Japanese names. (I know I have trouble reading Chinese novels for that reason.)

On another note, as an additional recommendation to add to this thread, I wanted to add Haruki Murakami's Underground as a good nonfiction work that explores the Japanese psyche according to the Tokyo Gas Attack. I read it a few months ago and was enthralled. To this I must also recommend an accompanying read, Ian Reader's Religious Violence in Contemporary Japan, an in depth following of the Aum Shinrikyo from their meek beginnings to their rebirth as Aleph.

26lilisin
Jun 3, 2009, 4:53 am

Oh yes, one more thing. Any thoughts on Three Kingdoms by Luo Guanzhong? There is an edition on Amazon.com that combines all 4 volumes but at a combined 2340 pages, it seems quite daunting!

Also, has any one read The Story of the Stone series by Cao Xuequin? I have a friend who just recommended it. Apparently one of the tomes is on the 1001 books to read before you die list.

27jcbrunner
Jun 3, 2009, 5:47 am

>26 lilisin: May I humbly point to the just finished read-along of 3K? Supported by the TV series, the two recent movies, Wikipedia and some websites, it is a pleasurable and fascinating read. The Moss Roberts translation and commentary is outstanding.

We will really soon start with a Story of the Stone read-along and fellow travelers and commenters are welcome.

28lilisin
Jun 3, 2009, 9:17 pm

Those are quite the threads jcbrunner! Thanks for bringing those to my attention.

29brianjungwi
Jun 4, 2009, 5:21 pm

those threads are intimidating! I read the 4 vol 3 kingdoms set a few years ago. Don't feel daunted, it reads like an enjoyable pulp novel.