1MythButton
Let's be honest, one of the best and most fun thing for fantasy writers is building their own worlds. So this is a board for discussing the fantasy worlds you love the most, and for fantasy writers to talk about the worlds they build and the techniques they used.
I'll start off by saying the first thing I take into account is the basic imagery of the culture I create. Example, say I want to make a race of people who's major god is some sort of amphibian. That means I got a basic for imagery and colorization. I think of great stony temples where the major colors are bright but faded shades of gray, teal, seafoam and dark blue. However, that's not enough. Next, you gotta think about what they wear. Then you gotta thing about the significance of it all, and suddenly, you gotta think about how it ties into the best part: their mythology. And that's where it gets interesting: developing a basic alphabet for the naming system. It's easier to make the alphabet than the language. You don't want an inconsistent set of names with a hundred different ways to pronounce every letter (thank you so bloody much, English), so what I would do is develop a language based on common sounds from words like "amphibian," "swamp," "seafoam," "toad" and other related sound, and assign a letter for each sound. If you wanna crazy with them there diphthongs, you can, and that's where it gets even more interesting.
I'll start off by saying the first thing I take into account is the basic imagery of the culture I create. Example, say I want to make a race of people who's major god is some sort of amphibian. That means I got a basic for imagery and colorization. I think of great stony temples where the major colors are bright but faded shades of gray, teal, seafoam and dark blue. However, that's not enough. Next, you gotta think about what they wear. Then you gotta thing about the significance of it all, and suddenly, you gotta think about how it ties into the best part: their mythology. And that's where it gets interesting: developing a basic alphabet for the naming system. It's easier to make the alphabet than the language. You don't want an inconsistent set of names with a hundred different ways to pronounce every letter (thank you so bloody much, English), so what I would do is develop a language based on common sounds from words like "amphibian," "swamp," "seafoam," "toad" and other related sound, and assign a letter for each sound. If you wanna crazy with them there diphthongs, you can, and that's where it gets even more interesting.
2gilroy
I actually think you'd get better traction on a thread like this over in Writers-Readers
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/127/Writer-readers
Or potentially Hobnob with authors
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/8391/Hobnob-with-Authors
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/127/Writer-readers
Or potentially Hobnob with authors
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/8391/Hobnob-with-Authors
3MythButton
Maybe, but I'm trying to attract sci-fi and fantasy fans specifically.
4gilroy
Ah, might want to try these groups then:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/142/Science-Fiction-Fans
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/63/FantasyFans
Though since you want to talk about writing, they won't be welcome threads except in the groups listed in >2 gilroy:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/142/Science-Fiction-Fans
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/63/FantasyFans
Though since you want to talk about writing, they won't be welcome threads except in the groups listed in >2 gilroy:
5Karlstar
>1 MythButton: Some obvious choices for favorite worlds: Middle-Earth, Westeros and Osten Ard. All three authors went to great depths when developing the mythology, history, language and culture of their worlds.
Names and language for me are the toughest. That and developing a calendar that doesn't look just like ours. I can do mythology and geography without too much trouble, but translating either one into names and a unique language is a challenge.
Names and language for me are the toughest. That and developing a calendar that doesn't look just like ours. I can do mythology and geography without too much trouble, but translating either one into names and a unique language is a challenge.
6Karlstar
>4 gilroy: The scifi fans may take to this topic, but maybe not, I notice threads there seem to end quickly. Probably even less of a chance in FantasyFans.
7clamairy
>3 MythButton: By "attract" do you mean for meaningful discussion of world-building? Because if this thread is an attempt to peddle your book then that is against the LibraryThing Terms of Service.
I would suggest that if you are looking for an in-depth discussion with like-mind readers you might want to add more books to your library than just the one you have written.
I would suggest that if you are looking for an in-depth discussion with like-mind readers you might want to add more books to your library than just the one you have written.
8tardis
I recommend the podcast "Worldbuilding for Masochists" which is hosted by three fantasy writers, Marshall Ryan Maresca, Rowenna Miller, and Cass Morris, and is very good. I don't even write and I like listening to it. https://worldbuildingformasochists.podbean.com/ or wherever you get your podcasts.
9MythButton
>5 Karlstar: I admit I haven't had much practice in that either. In my first novel's case, it's all about aliens all living on the same planet and their various cultures. I kept the leading calendar simple: 13 months of 40 days.
The trick to developing a language is simply awareness of what sounds are made. Just look up a couple older alphabets like Greek, Russian or Hebrew, jot their alphabets in notes, and base a couple on that. Helped me a lot. I admit though, Tolkien and Paolini are the writers who influenced me in that regard.
The trick to developing a language is simply awareness of what sounds are made. Just look up a couple older alphabets like Greek, Russian or Hebrew, jot their alphabets in notes, and base a couple on that. Helped me a lot. I admit though, Tolkien and Paolini are the writers who influenced me in that regard.
10LShelby
>3 MythButton:
Actually, we tend to get more fantasy authors than any other kind over in the Hobnob With Authors group. Not sure why.
>1 MythButton:
When I want to build a culture, the first thing I think about is generally the climate. (Okay, species and tech level if it's science fiction, but climate is usually right up there in the top three even in science fiction.)
I recently (in the past decade?) built a culture that was part inspired by the Masai and part by American Plains Indians, (and at least a little bit of pure me) and when I told my mother (who practically lives on a "first people" reserve in Alberta, and spent over a year in Africa) she said "but those cultures are already so similar!" Similarities were exactly what I was looking for when I started reading up on two cultures that are from widely separate locations, but fairly similar climates. :)
>9 MythButton:
I have three ways of doing languages. I have "make it sound like an existing language" for one world, "put actual existing languages through a re-phoneticizing process" for a different world, and "use what I know of phonetics/linguistics to create word building rules", for the one Science Fiction universe, and another of my fantasy worlds. (I built a little web-app to help me out.)
...In my other Science fiction universe I haven't used invented languages yet and my fourth fantasy world is an alternate history version of Earth where I end up looking up actual Latin and so on, instead of inventing anything... but rewriting history was fun. :)
>8 tardis:
Do they say that starting with plate tectonics is probably overkill? I was at a con and one of the panelists said as much and I had to bite my tongue, because I really do start with plate tectonics (unless, of course, I'm building a world without any.)
I'm not big on podcasts... I prefer reading to listening.
For a handy guide to the Physics of worldbuilding I reccommend The Writer's Guide to Creating a Science Fiction Universe.
Actually, we tend to get more fantasy authors than any other kind over in the Hobnob With Authors group. Not sure why.
>1 MythButton:
When I want to build a culture, the first thing I think about is generally the climate. (Okay, species and tech level if it's science fiction, but climate is usually right up there in the top three even in science fiction.)
I recently (in the past decade?) built a culture that was part inspired by the Masai and part by American Plains Indians, (and at least a little bit of pure me) and when I told my mother (who practically lives on a "first people" reserve in Alberta, and spent over a year in Africa) she said "but those cultures are already so similar!" Similarities were exactly what I was looking for when I started reading up on two cultures that are from widely separate locations, but fairly similar climates. :)
>9 MythButton:
I have three ways of doing languages. I have "make it sound like an existing language" for one world, "put actual existing languages through a re-phoneticizing process" for a different world, and "use what I know of phonetics/linguistics to create word building rules", for the one Science Fiction universe, and another of my fantasy worlds. (I built a little web-app to help me out.)
...In my other Science fiction universe I haven't used invented languages yet and my fourth fantasy world is an alternate history version of Earth where I end up looking up actual Latin and so on, instead of inventing anything... but rewriting history was fun. :)
>8 tardis:
Do they say that starting with plate tectonics is probably overkill? I was at a con and one of the panelists said as much and I had to bite my tongue, because I really do start with plate tectonics (unless, of course, I'm building a world without any.)
I'm not big on podcasts... I prefer reading to listening.
For a handy guide to the Physics of worldbuilding I reccommend The Writer's Guide to Creating a Science Fiction Universe.
11LShelby
>1 MythButton: "say I want to make a race of people who's major god is some sort of amphibian"
So I've been thinking about what you described, and what I'm curious about, is how did you know you wanted their god to be an amphibian?
Did you create the gods first? Do those sorts of things come as part of your initial story idea?
So I've been thinking about what you described, and what I'm curious about, is how did you know you wanted their god to be an amphibian?
Did you create the gods first? Do those sorts of things come as part of your initial story idea?
12MythButton
>11 LShelby:
Starting with the mythology is an easy way of developing the culture. In my case, I would want to create some sort of amphibian god just on the basis that I don't have one in my stories yet so it would be a start in changing pace for a whole new design.
Starting with the mythology is an easy way of developing the culture. In my case, I would want to create some sort of amphibian god just on the basis that I don't have one in my stories yet so it would be a start in changing pace for a whole new design.
13Karlstar
>12 MythButton: I've almost always started the other way around, with the culture and history first, then made the mythology fit in. My approach has usually been to start with 'now' and work backwards. I can see how starting with the mythology has the potential for more divergence from my usual cultures.
14MrAndrew
I like to start with the pastries. You can tell a lot about the history of a culture by which pastry is the preferred mid-morning snack.
15pgmcc
>14 MrAndrew: I think you could have an interesting book based on that approach. I see it now on the Popular Science bookshelves: "The Pasty Foundations of Culture". Sorry, the touchstone is not working.
16LShelby
>14 MrAndrew:
So... if I say that donuts are the snack of choice: I clearly have an agricultural based society that grows wheat with advanced enough metallurgy that vats of boiling oil are not uncommon. Where do I go from there?
Although...
You could heat oil in stone vats using heated rocks if you really wanted, couldn't you? So donuts could exist in a metal-poor (but oil rich) environment. (No good plows, though. That makes wheat farming a lot harder, doesn't it?)
>12 MythButton:
Is the "mythology" real?
I used to start with a story idea, and would build a world out from what I knew I needed for the story. The problem was that each fantasy/sf story idea then resulted in an entire world/universe, and I was spending as much time (or more) building the worlds as telling the stories. (I saved all my writing from Jr. High and High school. In a six year span I started writing, or at least wrote down notes for, over a hundred stories -- thank goodness half of them were historicals!)
In college I started meeting other writers, and was introduced to the notion of building the world first. Nowadays I try really hard to fit each new story idea into a pre-existing world. But it doesn't always work, because I'm the sort of writer who needs to have established rules to write. If there is magic, I need to know how the magic works. If there is technology, I need to understand the physics behind it. The heart of each of my worlds is the rules it runs on.
Every so often I come up with a story idea where the idea itself requires new rules. For example, I created a sf universe with portable wormhole technology so I would be able to build lots and lots of worlds to explore and my characters could "blip" between them, skipping the generational-long travel times. (But they still have to go up into space before blipping, to limit gravity distortion). Then I got a space pirate story idea... but my pirates were stopping ships in transit between worlds. Oops! Clearly a new sf universe was needed. So I built one that uses travel through subspace to get from world to world. The shorter but not non-existant travel times equate nicely to sea-travel in the age of tall ships.
None of my current worlds have rules that allow for the insertion of an actual amphibian god.
But I could create a culture that worships a god that doesn't exist. (I already invented an elaborate system of astrology for a culture in a fantasy world where magic is all about making deals between souls... no cosmic influences whatsoever.) :)
Since you say you start with the visuals... do you process information visually by preference?
I'm more spacial/kinesthetic myself.
So... if I say that donuts are the snack of choice: I clearly have an agricultural based society that grows wheat with advanced enough metallurgy that vats of boiling oil are not uncommon. Where do I go from there?
Although...
You could heat oil in stone vats using heated rocks if you really wanted, couldn't you? So donuts could exist in a metal-poor (but oil rich) environment. (No good plows, though. That makes wheat farming a lot harder, doesn't it?)
>12 MythButton:
Is the "mythology" real?
I used to start with a story idea, and would build a world out from what I knew I needed for the story. The problem was that each fantasy/sf story idea then resulted in an entire world/universe, and I was spending as much time (or more) building the worlds as telling the stories. (I saved all my writing from Jr. High and High school. In a six year span I started writing, or at least wrote down notes for, over a hundred stories -- thank goodness half of them were historicals!)
In college I started meeting other writers, and was introduced to the notion of building the world first. Nowadays I try really hard to fit each new story idea into a pre-existing world. But it doesn't always work, because I'm the sort of writer who needs to have established rules to write. If there is magic, I need to know how the magic works. If there is technology, I need to understand the physics behind it. The heart of each of my worlds is the rules it runs on.
Every so often I come up with a story idea where the idea itself requires new rules. For example, I created a sf universe with portable wormhole technology so I would be able to build lots and lots of worlds to explore and my characters could "blip" between them, skipping the generational-long travel times. (But they still have to go up into space before blipping, to limit gravity distortion). Then I got a space pirate story idea... but my pirates were stopping ships in transit between worlds. Oops! Clearly a new sf universe was needed. So I built one that uses travel through subspace to get from world to world. The shorter but not non-existant travel times equate nicely to sea-travel in the age of tall ships.
None of my current worlds have rules that allow for the insertion of an actual amphibian god.
But I could create a culture that worships a god that doesn't exist. (I already invented an elaborate system of astrology for a culture in a fantasy world where magic is all about making deals between souls... no cosmic influences whatsoever.) :)
Since you say you start with the visuals... do you process information visually by preference?
I'm more spacial/kinesthetic myself.
17Karlstar
>14 MrAndrew: See what you started? I hear there's a real debate over whether scones should have raisins or not too, that could be a cultural thing.
I could see building a culture based on pastries! The proof would be in the results.
I could see building a culture based on pastries! The proof would be in the results.
18LShelby
>17 Karlstar:
It would probably lead to a war, the Raisininsconers vs the Noraisinsconers.
...Or did someone already write that book?
It has been postulated that the reason Chinese cuisine features chopped up vegetables and meat that has been fried, is because there was a cooking fuel shortage. Ovens required large quantities of wood or coal. So if my donut-loving society also has a fuel shortage, that would account for why donuts as opposed to, say, cupcakes or croissants.
It would probably be easier to do donuts as street-food served hot than something that needs an oven also. So we could picture a highly urbanized society, who are buying their snack of choice from street-stalls, because they didn't have time to grab breakfast before work. Probably a somewhat cool climate, and not on a sea coast.
It would probably lead to a war, the Raisininsconers vs the Noraisinsconers.
...Or did someone already write that book?
It has been postulated that the reason Chinese cuisine features chopped up vegetables and meat that has been fried, is because there was a cooking fuel shortage. Ovens required large quantities of wood or coal. So if my donut-loving society also has a fuel shortage, that would account for why donuts as opposed to, say, cupcakes or croissants.
It would probably be easier to do donuts as street-food served hot than something that needs an oven also. So we could picture a highly urbanized society, who are buying their snack of choice from street-stalls, because they didn't have time to grab breakfast before work. Probably a somewhat cool climate, and not on a sea coast.
19gilroy
>17 Karlstar: I always thought the proof was in the pudding...
20pgmcc
>17 Karlstar: & >18 LShelby:
There is enough trouble over whether scone should be pronounced scone or pronounced scone without dragging raisins into the frey.
These pastry based civilisations are rife with fury and discontent.
There is enough trouble over whether scone should be pronounced scone or pronounced scone without dragging raisins into the frey.
These pastry based civilisations are rife with fury and discontent.
21LShelby
>20 pgmcc:
Fury and discontent are important aspects when discussing Worldbuilding.
For the history overview I made for my main science fiction universe, I painted a galaxy to use as a map, randomly scattered sentient civilizations around it, created a technological progression chart and average speed of expansion, and then calculated when and where each of the civilizations ran into each of the other civilizations. Much fury and discontent ensued.
...Particularly when one civilization decided that the denizens of another civilization made particularly good mid-morning snacks. ;)
Fury and discontent are important aspects when discussing Worldbuilding.
For the history overview I made for my main science fiction universe, I painted a galaxy to use as a map, randomly scattered sentient civilizations around it, created a technological progression chart and average speed of expansion, and then calculated when and where each of the civilizations ran into each of the other civilizations. Much fury and discontent ensued.
...Particularly when one civilization decided that the denizens of another civilization made particularly good mid-morning snacks. ;)
22Karlstar
>19 gilroy: Yes, but pastries rise, American pudding does not.
23MythButton
>16 LShelby: It is and it isn't. As a long-tern Christian, the fun thing about working with religions in fiction is deciding how much the mortals really know, and how much they get right and wrong, especially when you think of reasons as to why these things are hidden. That's going to play heavily into a few of my stories, especially future Nialoca entries.
Another key trait to building up the aesthetic of a mythology or society is to understand which genres you want to mix, and how much of each ingredient is needed.
Another key trait to building up the aesthetic of a mythology or society is to understand which genres you want to mix, and how much of each ingredient is needed.
24MythButton
You know? I'm gonna jot down all my world-building notes on Nialoca and write a guidebook for the universe. I gotta tell people about how I tried to subvert the genre and all the tricks I pulled on it.
25LShelby
>23 MythButton: "the fun thing about working with religions in fiction is deciding how much the mortals really know, and how much they get right and wrong"
This is something I also have fun with. On my "standard" fantasy worlds the hobgoblins keep assuming that their god also created dragons, thus annoying the god that really did create the dragons. :) In another, each civilization has its own genesis story with the accuracy generally deteriorating the further away you get from the actual "birthplace of man".
This is something I also have fun with. On my "standard" fantasy worlds the hobgoblins keep assuming that their god also created dragons, thus annoying the god that really did create the dragons. :) In another, each civilization has its own genesis story with the accuracy generally deteriorating the further away you get from the actual "birthplace of man".
26MythButton
>25 LShelby: I like both of these ideas.
27Karlstar
>25 LShelby: Why wouldn't one of the deities correct the mistake? Since they can do so relatively directly, this is an easy situation to fix.
28MythButton
>27 Karlstar: No actual harm done maybe?
29LShelby
>27 Karlstar:
The Hobgoblins don't have a writing system or much of a storytelling tradition. Their racial memory is short. They don't remember that their ancestors made that mistake, and so whether you explain or not, they will make the same mistake again a few centuries later.
>28 MythButton:
Er, actually a fair amount of harm has been done.
The god in question is prone to tantrums, and has a creative personality, and so she keeps coming up with different ways to utterly destroy the latest incarnation of the Church of the Dragon.
The world is flat -- no plate tectonics. The one and only volcano in the world is the residue of this god raining heavenly fire down on one of the incarnations.
I can't quite remember all the rest of the ways she expressed her ire across the millenia. (I write this sort of stuff down so I don't have to remember.) I do recall that in destroying the most recent incarnation she accidentally started a plague. I remember that one because nearly a hundred years later when my story starts, the impact of the sudden depopulation caused by the plague is still noticeable. None of her other methods had so big an impact, so hopefully she will be a little more careful the next time around.
...
I keep wanting to explain that in this world's set up, gods killing people is not necessarily an indication that those gods are evil, even though I don't know why y'all would care. (In this case, it is an indication that this particular god is thoughtless and immature.)
>24 MythButton:
I forgot to say earlier that I thought writing a guidebook was good plan. Although personally I use a database-driven website that I built myself to track all the details.
The Hobgoblins don't have a writing system or much of a storytelling tradition. Their racial memory is short. They don't remember that their ancestors made that mistake, and so whether you explain or not, they will make the same mistake again a few centuries later.
>28 MythButton:
Er, actually a fair amount of harm has been done.
The god in question is prone to tantrums, and has a creative personality, and so she keeps coming up with different ways to utterly destroy the latest incarnation of the Church of the Dragon.
The world is flat -- no plate tectonics. The one and only volcano in the world is the residue of this god raining heavenly fire down on one of the incarnations.
I can't quite remember all the rest of the ways she expressed her ire across the millenia. (I write this sort of stuff down so I don't have to remember.) I do recall that in destroying the most recent incarnation she accidentally started a plague. I remember that one because nearly a hundred years later when my story starts, the impact of the sudden depopulation caused by the plague is still noticeable. None of her other methods had so big an impact, so hopefully she will be a little more careful the next time around.
...
I keep wanting to explain that in this world's set up, gods killing people is not necessarily an indication that those gods are evil, even though I don't know why y'all would care. (In this case, it is an indication that this particular god is thoughtless and immature.)
>24 MythButton:
I forgot to say earlier that I thought writing a guidebook was good plan. Although personally I use a database-driven website that I built myself to track all the details.
30Karlstar
>29 LShelby: Those are plausible explanations.
31MythButton
>29 LShelby: Actually, this has all the makings of a good and unique comedy.
32LShelby
>31 MythButton:
It does?
I'm not sure how I would turn it into anything longer than three pages of me describing in full what I just summarized. I don't know where the plot would go from there. I don't seem to have a character with a problem.
(My god needs to grow up but that's going to take millennia, and I think it would probably be narratively dull.)
It does?
I'm not sure how I would turn it into anything longer than three pages of me describing in full what I just summarized. I don't know where the plot would go from there. I don't seem to have a character with a problem.
(My god needs to grow up but that's going to take millennia, and I think it would probably be narratively dull.)
