Victorian Q2 Read-Along: North and South

North and South is Gaskell's 4th novel (after Mary Barton (1848), Cranford (1851–53) and Ruth (1853)).

It was initially serialized in 22 weekly episodes from 2 September 1854 to 27 January 1855 in Dickens' "Household Words" journal (Cranford had been serialized there before that and her 5th novel My Lady Ludlow will follow it eventually). The original title of the novel was "Margaret Hale" but Dickens insisted on the now familiar title.

The first book edition was in 1855, shortly after the serialization finished.

The whole novel was published in the same volume (Number X) of the journal so if someone wants to read it in installments, it is available here: https://archive.org/details/householdwords10dick/page/n7/mode/2up in its collated version (as part of its respective magazine issues - some pages are easier to read than others on the scan - there is quite a lot of bleed from the page behind on some of them)

The installments:
I: Chapters 1-2 (page 61 in the Archive link above)
II: Chapters 3-4 (page 85)
III: Chapter 5 (page 109)
IV: Chapters 6-7 (page 133)
V: Chapters 8-9 (page 157)
VI: Chapters 10-11 (page 181)
VII: Chapters 12-13 (page 205)
VIII: Chapters 14-15 (page 229)
IX: Chapters 16-17 (page 253)
X: Chapters 18-19 (page 277)
XI: Chapters 20-21 (page 301)
XII: Chapters 22-23 (page 325)
XIII: Chapters 24-26 (page 349)
XIV: Chapters 27-28 (page 373)
XV: Chapters 29-30 (page 397)
XVI: Chapters 31-33 (page 421)
XVII: Chapters 34-35 (page 445)
XVIII: Chapters 36-37 (page 469)
XIX: Chapters 38-39 (page 493)
XX: Chapters 40-41 (page 517)
XXI: Chapters 42-44 (page 540)
XXII: Chapters 45-46+The Last (aka 47) (page 561)

Even if you do not read the novel via the installments, you may want to check at least one issue of the magazine to see the context of what else was published alongside it.

For anyone who likes to explore adaptations, there are three TV versions out there:
- 1966 (Wendy Williams and Richard Leech as the leads)
- 1975 (Rosalie Shanks and Patrick Stewart as the leads)
- 2004 (Daniela Denby-Ashe and Richard Armitage as the leads)

Happy reading (and/or watching) and don't forget to come tell us what do you think :)

I'm not sure if I'll be joining in — I've read it several times, although apparently not since joining LT. But I have got the 2004 BBC adaptation on DVD, so maybe I'll watch that...

Slightly off-topic, but it might be interesting for some: David Lodge's Nice work (1988) is a light-hearted postmodern pastiche of the plot of N&S, with a lot of reflections on the "Victorian Industrial Novel" from a Thatcher-era perspective along the way.

I plan to read this...have my copy. But I won't start till May. I have never read it before.

>3 dchaikin: Same here: it's on my plan, I have a copy, bought last December, and never read it. I was planning to start reading in April, but I might have to push it to end of April or beginning of May.
I'm looking forward to reading this book!

>3 dchaikin: glad to have a reading buddy!

I read this one recently, last December, with the 1001 Books group. It was a little depressing with Christmas, but very thoughtful and I enjoyed it. I think I'll lurk around to read the comments here. :)

>6 Majel-Susan: we'll get to it eventually. : )

>3 dchaikin: >4 raton-liseur: I haven't read it before either. May is next week!

>8 SassyLassy: it is! My April plans are floating away.

I cracked this open today. Thinking about reading a bit every week. Otherwise it might have to sit a while.

I started yesterday and read a chapter and a bit. At that pace I should be able to finish in about a month, assuming I read the same amount every day. Which I didn't today :-).

So I’m only a little ways in - Page 48. It’s fine so far, entertaining. But I’m not deeply involved yet.

Just started this yesterday, but I think it will go quickly, even though it is a first time read. Enjoying it so far.

I'm at the end of Chapter 8 and I'm enjoying it so far. But I want to slap Margaret's parents.

I'm about 1/4 of the way through. Last quarter, I didn't get David Copperfield until mid-January and then read it pretty slowly (didn't finish until April) so I went in the opposite direction this quarter (finished The Law and the Lady and read a chunk of this one last month). Enjoying it so far and the author is definitely setting up a number of contrasts--in the early chapters, the different fates of Margaret and Edith and the opposite marriages of Mrs. Shaw and Mrs. Hale. Agree that Margaret's parents are very slappable and are pushing way too much responsibility onto her.

I finally started the book yesterday and read one hundred pages so far (up to chapter 7).
It's enjoyable, but for the moment, it's a bit slow. I hope things will move quicker or get more complicated.

I enjoyed Margaret‘s entry to polluted Manchester (…well, Milton):

For several miles before they reached Milton, they saw a deep lead-coloured cloud hanging over the horizon in the direction in which it lay. It was all the darker from contrast with the pale gray-blue of the wintry sky; for in Heston there had been the earliest signs of frost. Nearer to the town, the air had a faint taste and smell of smoke; perhaps, after all, more a loss of the fragrance of grass and herbage than any positive taste or smell. Quick they were whirled over long, straight, hopeless streets of regularly-built houses, all small and of brick. Here and there a great oblong many-windowed factory stood up, like a hen among her chickens, puffing out black 'unparliamentary' smoke, and sufficiently accounting for the cloud which Margaret had taken to foretell rain. As they drove through the larger and wider streets, from the station to the hotel, they had to stop constantly; great loaded lurries blocked up the not over-wide thoroughfares.

>17 dchaikin: That’s one of the earliest examples in the OED for “lorry” (a long flat wagon without sides running on four low wheels).

>18 thorold: thanks for that trivia!

>19 dchaikin: Sorry, but I was curious, partly because it’s a word that in current British English only refers to a motor vehicle (=US truck), and partly because it’s always pronounced “lurry” in Lancashire, but I don’t remember seeing the spelling with u anywhere else. Mrs G obviously heard it pronounced like that.

>20 thorold: i was legitimately thankful. : ) Interesting history of the word. Wonder how the US came up with “truck”.

Now that we are in Milton, the book is really becoming more interesting. Still fairly slow plot-wise, but I enjoy it a lot. It's kind of Elizabeth Benet in Germinal land, and I feel the mix works fairly well.

Margaret is an interesting character, who has access both to the working class and the capitalist class, allowing us to see the society from various angles.
I felt the remarks about poverty in the agricultural South and the industrial North interesting. Mrs Gaskell knows her subject and has a way to convey her observations and thoughts that I really enjoy!

It's at the same time an interesting and enjoyable reading experience so far.

>18 thorold: >19 dchaikin: "Lurries" has a great sound. My translation would be flat bed (no sides) as trucks have sides.

Also really like saying "double articulated lorry" It sounds so improbable.

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For some reason I took a break from North and South to read Spring. Now that I am back with it, it is roaring right along and I am almost finished. I think thanks to Margaret, I am getting a better idea from one perspective at least of how parties not identifying as either labour or capital viewed the rise of capitalism in England. Interesting to see her puzzling out her thoughts.

I also feel Gaskell portrays the secondary characters very well.

Just finished North and South this afternoon. Gaskell certainly took it down to the wire!

In another note on language, I enjoyed seeing a word I love, but which is seldom used anymore: "bosky". I think I last saw it when reading The Tempest.

>24 SassyLassy: I had a quick look to see what else N&S gets cited for in the OED. Not “bosky”, sadly, but there are 172 citations, of which 26 are first recorded uses. Textile and gardening terms, a few nice dialect words (e.g. “clemming” and “ossed”), the first use of “heart to heart” to describe a conversation, the first use of “pack of cards” to mean something liable to collapse, and perhaps most oddly, the first use of “miss out” to mean omit. Also the first use of “raccoon” as a verb…!

>25 thorold: You make me sad not reading it in English, as the language seems wonderful, and I think this is lost in the French translation. I've found a few odd terms related to textile, for sure, but did miss the other ones.

Out of curiosity, as I am hiding behind the name of "reading raccoon", I wondered what "raccoon" means as a verb?

Oh, and I finished the book this afternoon. I devoured the last two or three hundred pages (out of 670) between yesterday and today. So much for a slow, savouring read.

Part one and two are really different. I think I prefered part one, but I enjoyed the book all along! I'm so happy I finally read it, and for sure it's won't be my last Gaskell novel.

>26 raton-liseur: To walk about at night, in a manner reminiscent of a raccoon. Apparently an isolated use.

The reference is to part 1, Ch.13. Normally the OED only lists words with three independent uses in print, they must have decided to make an exception here because it amused them.

I’m struggling with this one. Trying to plod through. I enjoy what i’ve read, but I’m constantly forcing myself to go on. Not sure it’s the debates and fronting of labor ideas or something about the language and my mindset. I just finished Chapter 15.

I did appreciate this line from Margaret to John Thornton: ‘But I am trying to reconcile your admiration of despotism with your respect for other men’s independence of character.’

So I had a breakthrough. A little riot drama and a love story and suddenly I’m engaged. I’m about 200 pages into my 477-page edition.

>30 dchaikin: Nothing like a little strife to make things interesting! Seriously, I'm glad it picked up for you, and suspect there won't be anymore reading hitches.

>32 Bamf102: Margaret Hale is an interesting creation to me. Her class status vs the Higgins vs Thornton is so curious to me. A lot of her personality traits are some kind of ideal - either Gaskell’s ideal or a concept of an ideal Gaskell is toying with. The religion good thing is something I’m noting. Today the Higgins would be the simplified religious person and Margaret intectually agnostic or atheist - the complete opposite from Gaskell. A simplified atheism and intectual religion.

>34 Bamf102: Oops. Sorry. You will get there soon in Milton.

>28 thorold: Sorry to answer so late. Thanks for the info. I checked the book for the translation that was used in French, as I did not remember anything about a raccoon, and here it is:

Mais elle l'entendit marcher de long en large. On aurait cru qu'il "avait des oeufs de fourmis sous les pieds" (pour reprendre une de leurs expressions, à Edith et à elle)

So the raccon has been transformed in "ants eggs below his feet"... I have no idea how the translator came up with this idea...

>32 Bamf102:, >33 dchaikin: I actually did not really like Margaret Hale in this novel. She is too perfect, too ideal for me. But I like the fact that she evolves (a bit).
I prefer the secondary characters, who are flawed, but who also have contradictions, complexity and depth. They feel more human to me.

>36 Bamf102: admiring your enthusiasm (in contrast to my jaded and guarded progress). On the what-are-you-reading thread you mentioned two other Victorian era novels you’re reading or have read recently. Is this a favorite era of yours or a kind of phase for you?

>38 raton-liseur: I feel about the same - a little too perfect (and a little too set on her hard-edged morality standards). But I think Gaskell is playing a little.

>36 Bamf102: So glad you are enjoying this! When I last read it a couple of years ago, I couldn't get it out of my mind for weeks. I will probably make it my audio book for June, read by Juliet Stevenson.

Once you're done with the novel, you might try watching the BBC TV series starring Richard Armitage as John Thornton:



It is mostly true to the book, although the ending is changed. I actually love both endings; the movie's ending is more Hollywood-ish, but still works.

>41 Bamf102: yes, Austen is pre-Victorian. I lumped her in carelessly. The 19th-century is a big hole in my own reading. I’m using this group read to fill in a bit. I haven’t read Gaskell before. As much as I was fighting this book (we’re getting along better now) I find it nice to spend time here in this era.

>44 Bamf102: You wanna see more Margaret and John? I think you will find Chapter 22 verrrryyy exciting! I know I did. XD

>44 Bamf102: I found that section tough going too, although it was interesting in its own right. The narrative improves. 🙂

>44 Bamf102: I also hit a wall with the bits you mentioned above, however I'm not looking for more Margaret and John. I didn't realise going in that this was going to be a romance - I thought it was going to be about Margaret's expanding worldview.

Please tell me there is more to the story than Margaret and John's relationship.

>47 rhian_of_oz: a labor strife romance?

>47 rhian_of_oz: Please tell me there is more to the story than Margaret and John's relationship.

Much more. They both expand and mature a lot as individuals, apart from each other, which is one of the aspects that I enjoyed most about the story.

>33 dchaikin: A lot of her personality traits are some kind of ideal - either Gaskell’s ideal or a concept of an ideal Gaskell is toying with.
I think Victorians expected to learn from their reading, even in novels, and so characters as exemplars were quite common. Agnes had somewhat the same function in David Copperfield.

>44 Bamf102: the long paragraphs of people's thoughts on mill-owners and striking is just so irritating to me

To me, the novel is about conditions north and south, about societal change, written as it was happening, where it was happening. Margaret, John, and Nicholas are the vehicles for her discussing these issues (in the true sense of the word 'issue').

>47 rhian_of_oz: >50 Bamf102: Not sure I would describe this book as a romance. Setting aside all the social commentary and focussing only on the two main characters' story leaves out an awful lot.

>44 Bamf102: the long paragraphs of people's thoughts on mill-owners and striking is just so irritating to me.

I think I sort of flew through these parts the first time I physically read the book, and didn't pay much attention to them. Also, I had a hard time reading the dialect (especially Higgins and his daughter).

However, my second time through was on audiobook, and these parts made more sense to me in the over-all direction of the book because I knew where the book was headed, and the narrator put them in the voice and dramatic context of the characters. In that sense, these discussions helped me understand the conflicts that Gaskell sets up.

And the dialect was so much easier to understand when it was spoken to me, rather than trying to read it.

My mother has been re-reading all of Mrs Gaskell in the last month or two: she commented to me that all the heroines of the different books struck her as versions of the same character, presumably the author. And that she was glad to move on to something else!

>57 Bamf102: Not the right book at the right time, it happens.
For me, I think it was all the contrary: the perfect book at a perfect time.

I've just posted my review (in French). Nothing new in this review, but an enthusiastic one!

And if I had to summarise North and South, I'd say it's "Elizabeth Bennett in Germinal land".

>57 Bamf102: i had hit my own wall here. Understand.

>58 raton-liseur: I’m hoping to finish before I read your review.

On Chapter 31. For what it’s worth, I found the intimacy between Margaret and her brother Frederick very beautiful.

>52 SassyLassy: “I think Victorians expected to learn from their reading, even in novels, and so characters as exemplars were quite common.“

It’s so odd to me, this Margaret, being an exemplar, setting conventions. So much of what we read is themed on breaking conventions.

>61 dchaikin: It’s so odd to me, this Margaret, being an exemplar, setting conventions.

I've re-read the first 15 or so chapters, and it seems to me Margaret is doing just about everything wrong. She doesn't fit into her aunt's London society; she refuses an offer of marriage from a perfectly eligible suitor; she doesn't understand her father's loss of convictions; she's frustrated with her mother; she pulls rank on Dixon, the loyal servant.

When they get to Milton she hates the place; she initially treats Mr Thornton like a common laborer; then she insults the common laborers (Higgins & family) by being paternalistic and not showing up when she (essentially) invites herself to their home; she has no clue how to treat or respond to Thornton's mother and sister; in general she shows that she has little patience or understanding of northern ways, and spends a lot of time telling everyone how wonderful the south is. Not exactly the way to win friends and influence people.

I could name a lot more things just in these beginning chapters, so I fail to see how she is an exemplar. To me she seems the model of a typical 19-year-old, with lots of good intentions, but with flaws and a whole lot to learn. Since I've read the book before, I know that she will gradually (and painfully) go through many changes in attitude, sometimes successfully, sometimes not (Thornton's mother will ALWAYS be a "thorn" in her side).

>62 kac522: well, ok, yeah. hmm. yeah.

What I think I'm getting at is that she acts like a teenager should act. She should stumble through all these social conventions and misapprehensions and learn from them, and she does it in a manner that sets an example. She is well read and well brought up enough to know the right manners, learns to be humble, stays true to the (perceived) important fundamental values - honesty within reason, guilt for sins even reasonable sins, faith, respect for others within capability, open to proper self-correction, and so on. This is how Gaskell wants your unruly daughter to develop.

>63 dchaikin: And Thornton? Any development in that self-made stubborn son-of-a-gun into a person with some humility, honesty within reason, respect for others (especially those underneath him) within capability, open to proper self-correction and so on? Any changes/examples set there? For me, yes.

I see both of them learning, improving---perhaps meeting somewhere in the middle, assuming aunts and mothers don't make life miserable.

I see it as Gaskell's idealized hope for her country: North and South, town and country, mill owner and landowner, gentleman and tradesman, factory worker and farm laborer--meeting somewhere in the middle.

Also I see the next small step for more equal relationships between men and women.
Austen's Elizabeth Bennet stands up to Lady Catherine and gains respect in Mr Darcy's eyes.
Bronte's Jane Eyre can come back to a disabled Rochester because of her fortune.
Gaskell's Margaret Hale takes it a tiny step further, and comes back to Thornton because of her fortune, but does so as a business partner.

>64 kac522: & >65 kac522: good stuff. I haven’t quite gotten there yet, but basically knew that from internet conventional wisdom. So not a spoiler.

(Bear with me here. I’m not being confrontational or sure, just my thoughts of the moment from my perspective of the moment. )

Gaskell makes me think of Kevin Bacon at the end of the movie of Animal House. There is a riot and he stands there in a police uniform uselessly demanding everyone remain calm.

In N&S she writes about the horrors of industrialization on the workers, in the shadow of Engels and Marx, and she basically concludes - chill. It’s all a misunderstanding. It’s ok. The strikers are just uneducated fools and the rich owners are just trying to manage their financial risks. But they are all good people and mean well. They just need to understand each other better. Remain calm. She is trying to be in this war of desperation saying this.

In P&P there is a horror story underneath the surface. Elizabeth Bennet is on a cusp of a miserable life of lonely hopeless poverty. Whatever the romance, she is saved from a horrible world situation. Do not remain calm - the message is one of exasperation.

So very sorry--didn't realize you weren't finished. Will circle back when you're done.

Edited my previous comments as spoilers for those who haven't finished the book yet. Many apologies.

>67 kac522: no worries. I think at this point about everyone is - except Bamf102 and me.

>68 dchaikin: I am just starting it (which is why I am mostly ignoring the thread for now). :)

Ok, and Annie. : )

Actually I finished late yesterday - the novel not the full book. I need to go back and read the introduction.

I and Mrs Gaskell don't seem to be communicating very well at the moment so I am setting it aside and will come back to her later in the year.

I've finished up to the end of Chapter 41 and would like to try and finish it by the end of the month. Like some others I stalled a bit on this one, partly due to the book and partly due to personal circumstances, but I'm now in the right brain space again for this book and am enjoying it.

Some thoughts on re-reading North and South this month:


North and South, Elizabeth Gaskell (1855); audiobook read by Juliet Stevenson

The first time I read N&S in 2009, it was so-so, partly because of the sections of masters v. workers and partly due to the dialect. Then I saw the 2004 mini-series and it all fell into place: the politics and ethics and class divides and the love story became brilliantly intertwined for me. This is the story of Margaret Hale, 19, raised in London and the quiet rural south of England, who moves with her parents to the industrial North. She's exposed to mills and workers ("hands") and one specific mill owner ("master"), John Thornton. Sparks fly, classes and cultures clash, and misunderstandings abound.

This was my 3rd re-read since 2009. Juliet Stevenson's performance on audiobook helped me a lot, especially with dialect. Several things noticed on this re-read:
1) the focus on hands: shaking hands, Margaret's hands serving tea, hands around Thornton's neck, the final scene with her hands covering her face, to name a few;
2) how many deaths happen (6?) in a span of (I think) 2-3 years.
3) Change. This novel is about change: how we adapt (or fail to adapt) to change, as individuals, as institutions and as a society.
4) Overcoming differences takes hard work. The last lines of the novel--"That man!" and "That woman!" (anticipated outcries from their respective relations) let us know that love conquers a lot, but not all. John & Margaret have many hurdles ahead: personal, cultural, financial.

Right now I'm obsessed with this story; despite finishing it a couple of weeks ago, it still haunts me. I think it is now my favorite novel, replacing my long-time childhood favorites of Jane Eyre and Pride & Prejudice. Immediately after finishing this re-read, I re-watched the 2004 BBC mini-series and noticed the many subtle changes the screenplay made to the plot. Most of them I think worked well and added to the energy of the film. The cinematography is stunning, the music is wonderful, and all the main characters are brilliantly played.

>73 kac522: Nice and sweet review. It was my first time reading it, and I enjoyed it immensly. Maybe I should watch the mini-series, but I'm not sure I'll be able to convince M'sieur Raton. Not his cup of tea (how appropriate this turn of phrase is!).
I liked your note on hands. I think it struck me, somewhere at the back of my mind without me being able to point it clearly. Now you're saying it, it seems so obvious. A lot is said by those hands. I wonder if Elizabeth Gaskell does the same in some of her other books (so far, I've only read some short stories or novellas from her).

It was a great experience reading this book, and interesting seeing the diversity of reactions in this group. This made my read richer, so thanks to all!

>74 raton-liseur: The mini-series is well worth your time, just for the acting alone: Sinead Cusack as Mrs Thornton is outstanding, Brendan Coyle as Mr Higgins lights up the screen, and then there's Richard Armitage (*sigh*). Some scenes were shot in a real working mill that is now a museum. The ending is changed--a bit Hollywood--but still works.

I read Mary Barton years ago, but don't remember much. I loved Cranford and the short stories and novellas I've read. I want to read all of her novels, but I keep re-reading North and South!

I found this review of Mary Barton, published in 1849.

"The authoress of this truthful tale of Manchester life acknowledges that the interests of both masters and men are really the same;" reminded me of >66 dchaikin:. But the rest of the comments, clearly written by a factory owner, is _their_ far too rosy-tinted interpretation of Manchester life....

>73 kac522: just now saw your terrific review. Good stuff. I think I would like that 2004 mini-series.

>76 ELiz_M: 🙂