1Bookmarque
So I was with two of my friends and neighbors the other day and one said she’s given up Power of Attorney with regard to her mother because her two sisters wanted it and it was making her life hell. It’s a long story, but she finally did it. What got me was that she and her daughter prayed to be told what to do. They were both told that she should give it up. My friend was amazed that her daughter got the same message on the same day. The other friend with us is also religious so is soaking this up as religious people do. I didn’t laugh, but it was hard.
Talk about confirmation bias. I mean, the situation was beyond horrible as family situations often are so it’s no big revelation what she should do. It’s practical, common sense. Her sisters already moved her mother to another assisted living home out of state. My friend is now hundreds of miles away from her mother and holding onto the POA would have meant a lawsuit eventually as her sisters fought to wrench it from her. What else would a sane person do?
But no. Instead of marveling at the mind and its ability to process and protect its fragile psyche - that both she and her daughter understood this instinctively and individually - they chalk it up to some sky god who is the only source of reasonable guidance. It’s insane. I could have told her what to do in 1 second flat. Does that make me god, too? I really thought it was funny, but didn’t laugh and just nodded and said that I’m glad she “found” the guidance she needed.
Talk about confirmation bias. I mean, the situation was beyond horrible as family situations often are so it’s no big revelation what she should do. It’s practical, common sense. Her sisters already moved her mother to another assisted living home out of state. My friend is now hundreds of miles away from her mother and holding onto the POA would have meant a lawsuit eventually as her sisters fought to wrench it from her. What else would a sane person do?
But no. Instead of marveling at the mind and its ability to process and protect its fragile psyche - that both she and her daughter understood this instinctively and individually - they chalk it up to some sky god who is the only source of reasonable guidance. It’s insane. I could have told her what to do in 1 second flat. Does that make me god, too? I really thought it was funny, but didn’t laugh and just nodded and said that I’m glad she “found” the guidance she needed.
2clamairy
>1 Bookmarque: I'm amazed by your ability to keep a straight face during this conversation.
3Marissa_Doyle
>1 Bookmarque: I had a very similar situation with a dear friend who is also of that persuasion. She emailed me a few years ago about a problem she was having deciding whether to take on leadership of an organization we were both members of, which was in a rocky patch. Knowing her and wanting to help her (even if I think she's delusional) I asked her, "Did you pray about it?"
"Yes," she replied. "And God told me to talk to you!"
"Yes," she replied. "And God told me to talk to you!"
4clamairy
>3 Marissa_Doyle: Oh my... What did you tell her to do?
5Marissa_Doyle
>4 clamairy: After that, it got normal--we discussed the pros and cons and whether she could carve the time out of her life for it, blah blah (she did, and did a good job of steering the craft away from the rocks). But I'll never forget that experience. She's an intelligent, rational person otherwise and is well respected in her field...but yeah.
6WholeHouseLibrary
I believe I've come to understand why people so readily accept that confirmation bias.
Part of it is our bicameral minds -- the proverbial devil whispering in one ear and the angel in the other; the back and forth over whether one should eat that last eclair, for example. (In truth, that happens to be the exception to the rule for me. That eclair would be in my mouth faster than the reaction time of the driver behind me blaring his horn when the light turns green.)
The other part of it is that hyper-religious (and perhaps moderately religious) people "learn" that Grid* is omnipresent, omniscient (much like Santa Clause) and therefore, will guide you if you believe hard enough. Lots of anecdotal evidence for that, if you are willing to suspend disbelief of the obvious. They can't imagine it being otherwise.
It's something that took me years to work that concept out of my head. I didn't become an atheist because that was what Thanos was thinking when he snapped his fingers; it's because I read a lot of books of philosophy, comparative religion, science, etc., and understood. It was the voice-in-my-head thing, though, that gave me the most trouble.
I told you all of that to tell you this: Whatever you latch on to as the most important thing in your life is your god. For me, that's Karrell (to you, she's MrsHouseLibrary), who died three year, two months, and fourteen days ago (but who's counting.) We were the epitome of the privately synergistic couple (that everyone saw anyway,) and there were no secrets between us (that I'm aware of.) We had complete, deep conversations without either of us uttering a word. And when she died, those conversations didn't stop. I still talk to her every night (and every morning, and lots of times in between,) and in my head, she answers me. It's because I know what she would say, and I hear it in her voice -- all in my head. And in quite times, I'll hear a muttered "Bastard" and I'll reply just as softly "Bitch" and smile, because those terms were so ridiculously antithetical to how we felt about each other, it was a very funny joke (especially when her sisters were visiting.)
Now, I know that she's not really speaking to me. Audiometers would register nothing prior to me turning my head to respond to something I just "heard" her say. Hook me up to an EEG, or do an MRI of my brain, and they'll both show me registering, processing, and responding to some tidbit of trivia she came across in her reading, but nothing that involves the eardrums. Sometimes at night, I "feel" her holding my hand (as we did every night when I came to bed.) She's not really there; she's in a half-filled urn on the buffet. I blow the dust off it every couple of days. It's not in the ground because I'm not dead yet. I've left instructions for my kids to have me cremated and add my ashes to hers (she loved to snuggle) and only then, bury us in the family cemetery east Texas. And that brings up another point.
I'm not afraid of dying; haven't been for almost ever, it seems. I've witnessed enough of it; dug three graves, been very close to death myself, even -- twice. It's a painful process. I fully understand that when I'm dead, I'm gone and nothing of me survives except the mess of everything I owned and the memories of me. I'm good with that. Still, the idea that (if all goes as requested) I'll be snuggling with Karrell until our sun explodes, enveloping the Earth and making us star stuff again -- that makes me happy. Just the idea of it. The reality though ... I won't know or care if any of that happens at all. It does, however, help me understand and even have some empathy for people who believe in things (deities, in this case) that could not possibly exist. They've got their own versions of Grid, and I've got Karrell - who actually did exist.
Kudos to you, Bookmarque for allowing them their (misguided) dignity.
*Grid - yeah, you know what I mean.
Part of it is our bicameral minds -- the proverbial devil whispering in one ear and the angel in the other; the back and forth over whether one should eat that last eclair, for example. (In truth, that happens to be the exception to the rule for me. That eclair would be in my mouth faster than the reaction time of the driver behind me blaring his horn when the light turns green.)
The other part of it is that hyper-religious (and perhaps moderately religious) people "learn" that Grid* is omnipresent, omniscient (much like Santa Clause) and therefore, will guide you if you believe hard enough. Lots of anecdotal evidence for that, if you are willing to suspend disbelief of the obvious. They can't imagine it being otherwise.
It's something that took me years to work that concept out of my head. I didn't become an atheist because that was what Thanos was thinking when he snapped his fingers; it's because I read a lot of books of philosophy, comparative religion, science, etc., and understood. It was the voice-in-my-head thing, though, that gave me the most trouble.
I told you all of that to tell you this: Whatever you latch on to as the most important thing in your life is your god. For me, that's Karrell (to you, she's MrsHouseLibrary), who died three year, two months, and fourteen days ago (but who's counting.) We were the epitome of the privately synergistic couple (that everyone saw anyway,) and there were no secrets between us (that I'm aware of.) We had complete, deep conversations without either of us uttering a word. And when she died, those conversations didn't stop. I still talk to her every night (and every morning, and lots of times in between,) and in my head, she answers me. It's because I know what she would say, and I hear it in her voice -- all in my head. And in quite times, I'll hear a muttered "Bastard" and I'll reply just as softly "Bitch" and smile, because those terms were so ridiculously antithetical to how we felt about each other, it was a very funny joke (especially when her sisters were visiting.)
Now, I know that she's not really speaking to me. Audiometers would register nothing prior to me turning my head to respond to something I just "heard" her say. Hook me up to an EEG, or do an MRI of my brain, and they'll both show me registering, processing, and responding to some tidbit of trivia she came across in her reading, but nothing that involves the eardrums. Sometimes at night, I "feel" her holding my hand (as we did every night when I came to bed.) She's not really there; she's in a half-filled urn on the buffet. I blow the dust off it every couple of days. It's not in the ground because I'm not dead yet. I've left instructions for my kids to have me cremated and add my ashes to hers (she loved to snuggle) and only then, bury us in the family cemetery east Texas. And that brings up another point.
I'm not afraid of dying; haven't been for almost ever, it seems. I've witnessed enough of it; dug three graves, been very close to death myself, even -- twice. It's a painful process. I fully understand that when I'm dead, I'm gone and nothing of me survives except the mess of everything I owned and the memories of me. I'm good with that. Still, the idea that (if all goes as requested) I'll be snuggling with Karrell until our sun explodes, enveloping the Earth and making us star stuff again -- that makes me happy. Just the idea of it. The reality though ... I won't know or care if any of that happens at all. It does, however, help me understand and even have some empathy for people who believe in things (deities, in this case) that could not possibly exist. They've got their own versions of Grid, and I've got Karrell - who actually did exist.
Kudos to you, Bookmarque for allowing them their (misguided) dignity.
*Grid - yeah, you know what I mean.
7Bookmarque
That was very moving. It breaks my heart that you and Karrell have been separated and I love the idea of the eternal cuddle until you’re star stuff once again. That you fully understand why you ‘hear’ her in your head is a refreshing take on this (probably common) phenomenon. The human imagination and capacity for memory and invention is vast and we still chalk a lot of it up to some external/mystical source. If it gives you comfort or even just amusement, I think it’s a good thing.
Yeah, I have learned the hard way to pick my battles. Both women are friends and worthy of being so. Neither will change and it’s not my place to try to instigate that or upset their world views. Much like your ‘conversations’ with Karrell, if it provides comfort and makes a positive difference, their prayer is fine with me.
It continues to amuse me though. My parents know I’m an atheist, but they still sometimes tell me they’ve prayed for me. How am I supposed to respond? With gratitude? With inquiries of the outcome? The ladies I was with also know, but are comfortable with speaking like this in front of me.
WHL - you talk about the omniscient and omnipresent nature of many people’s idea of god and I’ve always found that hilarious. Two people pray for a parking spot, but only one gets it. Two armies pray for victory, but only one gets it. You could go on and on about that - issues great and small that some entity who is responsible for the universe is supposed to give a shit about. The idea of a personal god is really silly and self-aggrandizing. As if you’re that important.
Anyway…I like what we’ve got going here. Thanks for the commiseration peeps.
Yeah, I have learned the hard way to pick my battles. Both women are friends and worthy of being so. Neither will change and it’s not my place to try to instigate that or upset their world views. Much like your ‘conversations’ with Karrell, if it provides comfort and makes a positive difference, their prayer is fine with me.
It continues to amuse me though. My parents know I’m an atheist, but they still sometimes tell me they’ve prayed for me. How am I supposed to respond? With gratitude? With inquiries of the outcome? The ladies I was with also know, but are comfortable with speaking like this in front of me.
WHL - you talk about the omniscient and omnipresent nature of many people’s idea of god and I’ve always found that hilarious. Two people pray for a parking spot, but only one gets it. Two armies pray for victory, but only one gets it. You could go on and on about that - issues great and small that some entity who is responsible for the universe is supposed to give a shit about. The idea of a personal god is really silly and self-aggrandizing. As if you’re that important.
Anyway…I like what we’ve got going here. Thanks for the commiseration peeps.
8Bookmarque
I hate when people announce their godliness or whatever in their online profiles. Like for example the photography forum I'm active on has pretty nice space for your profile and links to your other sites etc. I often want to follow a person whose work I like so I don't miss any. It really turns me off when I read about how the person wants to capture and share god's beautiful creations or some other sick-making drivel. Ugh. Makes me want to block them instead. I guess once a god botherer always a god botherer.
9clamairy
>8 Bookmarque: It can be very off-putting! I find the same thing on Instagram and Twitter.
10Bookmarque
And it continues. Invited to join this group today -
https://www.flickr.com/groups/14787788@N20/
I declined.
https://www.flickr.com/groups/14787788@N20/
I declined.
11lilithcat
>10 Bookmarque:
"We welcome all Christians and non-Christians, good to have you on board!"
Why would they think a non-Christian would want to join that group?
"We welcome all Christians and non-Christians, good to have you on board!"
Why would they think a non-Christian would want to join that group?
12Bookmarque
I know it's nuts. Scrolling through the pictures at the bottom is a hair-raising trip through an 80s born again christian nightmare.
14Meredy
>10 Bookmarque: I looked. Uh-oh, I hope the trackers didn't nab me there. I don't want to start getting religious spam. Thanks for sharing that experience, though. I wonder what the true believers of my childhood upbringing think of pages like that. I have an idea that some of them, at least, being sincere, genuine believers and practitioners of their faith, would look askance at them.
>11 lilithcat: Some people might join a group just to troll them. Someone I, uh, know told me he's done that: trolled them subtly for his own entertainment and waited for them to catch and ban him. I told him he shouldn't have done that...
>11 lilithcat: Some people might join a group just to troll them. Someone I, uh, know told me he's done that: trolled them subtly for his own entertainment and waited for them to catch and ban him. I told him he shouldn't have done that...
