September 2021 List of the Month: Native American / Indigenous Literature

Asunto del tema original: Suggestions for September

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September 2021 List of the Month: Native American / Indigenous Literature

1AbigailAdams26
Ago 30, 2021, 11:30 am

It will be September in a few days, and I thought we should start discussing what our List of the Month should be. Below I have listed themes that have already been suggested, but I welcome additional ideas.

Topics/themes already requested include:

1. Campus Novels (this could be expanded to college fiction?)
2. Poetry (could be general, or more specific)
3. Non-English language works (this would need to be made far more specific)
4. Desert Island Books (not clear whether this means books you'd take to a desert island, or books about
people on desert islands, i.e.: the Robinsonade)
5. The First Book You Remember Reading
6. Books with Characters You'd Like to Meet
7. Native American Literature (possibly fiction, non-fiction, or both; potentially in November)
8. Scary/Creepy Books (potentially in October)
9. Best Books of a Certain Decade or Other Time Period
10. Best Youth or YA Fiction of a Certain Period
11. Your Country/State's Bestseller/Classic/Best/Most Recent Book
12. Best Sports Writing
14. Owned but Unread (books that you've been wanting to read but haven't)

Do any of these ideas strike members as appealing, for our September list? Or is there something else you'd like to see explored?

2perennialreader
Ago 30, 2021, 12:04 pm

>1 AbigailAdams26: Best Sports Writing and Native American Literature. I think #11 would need to be narrowed down a bit for my taste. #4 maybe the same (could be broken down into 2 separate months? :)

Love these lists...

A.

3perennialreader
Ago 31, 2021, 1:55 pm

>1 AbigailAdams26: LT's Facebook page asks "What are your favorite memoirs"? Might be a good one to add to the list.

4lilithcat
Ago 31, 2021, 2:05 pm

14. Owned but Unread

I thought the list was limited to 5 per person . . .

5AbigailAdams26
Ago 31, 2021, 2:08 pm

>3 perennialreader: Yes, We Love Memoirs Day - I'm the one who does the FB page! :)

I like this idea, but it seems like there are a number of existing memoir lists already. Which isn't to say we couldn't do an 'official' one, if people wanted. But I found 24 different memoir lists, when I did a search, from graphic memoirs to food memoirs, to feminist memoirs. These were some:

Best Autobiographies and Memoirs
100 Autobiographies and Memoirs to Read in a Lifetime
Favorite Memoirs

6AbigailAdams26
Ago 31, 2021, 2:10 pm

>4 lilithcat: Ha! Fair enough - my list of owned but unread numbers in the 1000s. Maybe the top five books you've been meaning to read for a VERY long time?

7tardis
Ago 31, 2021, 2:10 pm

Could "native American literature" be "indigenous literature" or something more inclusive? "Native American" is not terminology used outside the USA. Not only does that eliminate Canadian indigenous peoples, but there might be some awesome Maori, Australian aboriginal or other stuff that should be included.

8AbigailAdams26
Ago 31, 2021, 2:13 pm

>7 tardis: I think it depends on what the intention of the list is. Whether it intends to gather indigenous literature of the USA, indigenous literature of North America, indigenous literature in the Anglophone world, or indigenous literature in general.

The list above is entirely user generated, and compiled from different comments, as they were written. There is nothing to say that we could not amend or edit the suggestion, as the group desires.

9tardis
Ago 31, 2021, 2:20 pm

>8 AbigailAdams26: Fair enough. I guess that would be in the definitions when the list is created. I think it's awfully limiting, but that's just me :)

10lilithcat
Ago 31, 2021, 2:34 pm

>7 tardis:, >8 AbigailAdams26:

I must say that I agree with Tardis on this one. If that list is used, it really ought to be made more inclusive.

11AbigailAdams26
Ago 31, 2021, 2:40 pm

For my own part, I can see the purpose of a list of indigenous North American literature, given the crossover of many, many tribal nations, when it comes to both the US-Canada and US-Mexico borders. I can also see the purpose of a wider list, to include Anglophone countries of the world, one which highlights commonality of experience. Then again, I can see the utility of an even wider list, that encompasses the global indigenous experience - the experiences of Siberian peoples in Russia, the experience of non-Han people in China, Tibetan people in Tibet, smaller ethnic groups in India, etc.

All of these lists have slightly different intentions, and I can see a use for both limiting and expanding the theme. That said, I'm not actually arguing for one or the other. I reproduced suggestions made, in various threads, and we can tailor them as we see fit. It sounds like we have two votes for a more expansive definition of indigenous literature.

12igorken
Editado: Ago 31, 2021, 3:27 pm

>11 AbigailAdams26: I'd say go for it. If it's succesful, there's no reason not to do one ore more more focused ones later!

13AbigailAdams26
Ago 31, 2021, 3:59 pm

>12 igorken: And by go for it, you mean a list of indigenous literature? If so, that's four votes. I myself would be happy with this theme as well, making it five.

How would you all like the theme to be defined/limited? Does indigenous, for the purpose of our list, refer to people indigenous to the country in which they live, full stop? As in, to encompass the native peoples of the Americas, Africa, Europe, Asia, Pacific? Or would we like to define it as the native peoples of countries and regions colonized and permanently settled by other people, sometime in the last 500 years? Do we want any further limitation than this? Should authors themselves be considered/accepted as indigenous, to qualify?

My own approach, in my catalog, is to keep a list of native children's books, that encompasses titles from the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I'm not opposed to including other countries, but haven't come across titles that would fit my parameters. I try to only include titles where the author and/or illustrator was native, or where significant native involvement was required for the production of the book:
https://www.librarything.com/catalog/&tag=Native+children

14aspirit
Editado: Sep 1, 2021, 10:46 am

For comparison or possibly inspiration, existing lists that are similar...

https://www.librarything.com/list/21199/all/Indigenous-America-Reader

https://www.librarything.com/list/10012/all/Top-100-books-by-Indigenous-Masters

https://www.librarything.com/list/831/all/Best-of-Native-American-Literature

https://www.librarything.com/list/42742/all/Native-American-Heritage *

* I created this list, and what I've learned is the diversity is (thankfully) so broad that more specific lists would be better for seeing works about specific tribes, language groups, and nations. I stopped adding works for a while, because it became too confusing. What does a disconnected Blackfoot descendant care about a Tłı̨chǫ picture book while looking to celebrate their heritage with retellings of their mother's stories?

Going global would be interesting, though. What would a list that includes indigenous people from all continents look like when each member has only five choices? Would we get more works about minority tribes in Asia and Africa than what's currently in Lists?

15igorken
Sep 1, 2021, 2:26 pm

>13 AbigailAdams26: Yes,that was vote nr 4.

I can't really help with the definition. I don't know a lot about this topic.
In generall I have to admit I'm not good at helping build the lists, I mainly enjoy looking what shows up.

16AbigailAdams26
Sep 2, 2021, 4:02 pm

>14 aspirit: "What does a disconnected Blackfoot descendant care about a Tłı̨chǫ picture book while looking to celebrate their heritage with retellings of their mother's stories?"

"What would a list that includes indigenous people from all continents look like when each member has only five choices? Would we get more works about minority tribes in Asia and Africa than what's currently in Lists?"


All interesting questions! I do think that the intention of the list is important, and will help to set our guidelines. Is it to highlight the commonalities of the indigenous experience? In that case, a global list might be best. Is it to highlight that experience in relation to North American history? In that case, a North American list would be best.

I'm not strongly wedded to one approach or another, but do feel we should have clear guidelines, so we can build a list that is both interesting, and a useful resource.

17AbigailAdams26
Sep 2, 2021, 4:02 pm

>15 igorken: Fair enough! :)

18AbigailAdams26
Sep 2, 2021, 4:11 pm

OK, so Native American Literature was suggested by our initial member (forgive me, I don't have a name), and nominated by perennialreader as a list idea for this month. tardis would like to expand that idea to Indigenous Literature, to include the USA, Canada, and possible Australia and New Zealand. lilithcat and igorken also like the idea of the expanded list, as does aspirit.

So, what about this:

"Indigenous Literature of the Anglophone World"

-Writers/Artists must be accepted as indigenous
-Indigenous is defined as native to a country that is now dominated by another ethnic or cultural group
-Anglophone is defined as being majority English-speaking.

Does this sound like a reasonable idea, and a valuable list to create? Countries would most likely be: USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. There are of course Anglophone countries in the Caribbean, but I'm not sure they have distinct indigenous populations. And the UK and Ireland are dominated by the indigenous populations, so they would not qualify.

Any further thoughts?

19timspalding
Sep 7, 2021, 2:26 pm

I'm voting for: Native American and Indigenous Literature

The description will ask for Native American, First People's or other indigenous authors. People can decide what that means.

20AbigailAdams26
Editado: Sep 8, 2021, 4:40 pm

OK, I have created a list with Tim's suggested name, but that includes Native American, First Nations, Aboriginal and Maori literature. You can find it here:

https://www.librarything.com/list/43212/all/Native-American-%25252F-Indigenous-L...

I will post about it shortly on social media, and create a homepage news item.

21lorax
Sep 14, 2021, 12:15 pm

So there was a lot of talk about what is included in "indigenous" and not about what was included in "literature". There are several history books on the list - is that appropriate? I have nothing against a broader "indigenous perspectives" list and may in fact find it more interesting than "literature", but surely the intention of this one is to keep it to fiction (and poetry) only?

22aspirit
Sep 14, 2021, 12:59 pm

>21 lorax: A quick search of "literature" shows it as a collection of writing, which certainly would include history books. In my opinion, the list shouldn't rely on the definitions that define college courses, which need to differentiate between history and what's (kind of strangely, in my opinion) referred to as "creative" writing.

23Aquila
Sep 14, 2021, 7:37 pm

Indigenous people may also have different definitions of literature since their oral traditions often get dismissed as mythology.

24lilithcat
Sep 14, 2021, 7:42 pm

I've noticed quite a few books on the list that are not by indigenous authors.

25aspirit
Sep 14, 2021, 9:05 pm

I have only five slots for the total number of works added plus thumbs down? Other members seem to have more slots, and I don't understand why. I'm also unsure what those of us who had the five-count limitation are supposed to do about an entire member list that looks as if it's neither about nor by Indigenous people.

26lilithcat
Sep 14, 2021, 9:40 pm

>25 aspirit:

an entire member list that looks as if it's neither about nor by Indigenous people.

Yes, that's very weird. Road Atlas of Great Britain? I don't think so.

27Aquila
Editado: Sep 14, 2021, 10:28 pm

Anyone know how long after adding a book to Librarything it becomes available to add to a list? I added one I'm reading at the moment, but am waiting for it to show up in the list adder.

28tardis
Sep 14, 2021, 11:34 pm

>27 Aquila: Should be right away. Try refreshing the list.

>25 aspirit: >26 lilithcat: Yeah, can all of that member's list be struck? They're way over the five book limit, and most of them aren't appropriate to the list. GURPS Discworld? Really? I added three, thumbed down two, and now I can't thumb down any more but it's really annoying me!

29lilithcat
Editado: Sep 14, 2021, 11:46 pm

>28 tardis:

Should be right away. Try refreshing the list.

No, actually, that won't help. If the book has just been catalogued, and no one else has it, it won't come up in a site search immediately, even though it will show in a catalog search. It sometimes takes a day or two to show up in a site search (which is what you're doing when you look for a book to add to a list).

30Aquila
Sep 15, 2021, 1:43 am

>29 lilithcat: Thanks. I thought it might be something like that.

31Aquila
Sep 16, 2021, 5:50 am

Took just over a day.

32anglemark
Sep 16, 2021, 8:36 am

Silvia Moreno-Garcia is on the list. Is she of Native American heritage? I cannot find anything about that when I google. Or is there someone who thinks that everyone who isn't of North European extraction is 'indigenous' in North America?

33aspirit
Sep 16, 2021, 10:33 am

>32 anglemark: Moreno-Garcia is known for writing about and advocating for indigenous peoples, so I don't think it's only her being a Brown* Latina* that suggests she has Native American ancestry, if that's what you're getting at.

Like you, though, I couldn't find anything confirming any affiliation more specific than North American. Her side of discussions on indigenous issues has been deleted on social media (perhaps as a part of routine cleanup) so maybe there's something an LT member recalls that the rest of us can't see.

(* I'm generalizing, as I don't know how she identifies.)

34aspirit
Sep 16, 2021, 10:36 am

>28 tardis: I'm bummed about having to choose between thumbing down and adding books. That ten-item list of seemingly random works is really frustrating.

35AbigailAdams26
Sep 16, 2021, 11:18 am

>21 lorax: You're right, we didn't discuss the parameters of 'literature,' for the purpose of the list. I was thinking of it in the broadest sense, including both fiction and non-fiction. One of the books I added, Walking the Rez Road was a collection of memoirs, another a history: Iroquois on Fire. Something aiming for fictional literature would also have been good, but I'm afraid that now that the list has launched, it will remain more general. A useful reminder to me to be more careful in the future, setting parameters!

36AbigailAdams26
Sep 16, 2021, 11:19 am

>23 Aquila: Good point. Definitions like this can often be culturally specific.

37AbigailAdams26
Sep 16, 2021, 11:22 am

>24 lilithcat: Yes, I have noticed this as well. Although it hasn't been downvoted, the top title (Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee) is by a non-indigenous author as well. Perhaps people aren't aware of that.

38AbigailAdams26
Editado: Sep 16, 2021, 11:40 am

>25 aspirit: Hmm. Odd. I see one member who has 10 added. I'm not sure how that's possible, as I set the limit at 5 titles. Of course, 6-10 of their titles have a score of 0. I thought at first this was the result of adding a book and then removing it, in order to choose another, but then I checked my own list (I added something and then removed it), and I have only 5. Very odd.

Edited to Add: I wonder if this member was adding books to the wrong list, and meant them for another?

39spiphany
Sep 16, 2021, 11:50 am

>38 AbigailAdams26: The titles have a score of less than 0 because other users downvoted them.

(Tip: titles can be removed from a list altogether if there are neither up nor down votes for it -- i.e., the Vollman and Zahn titles could be gotten rid of if the downvoters coordinate to remove their votes now that the original adder has also removed theirs.)

The issue with some users being able to add more than the limit was reported here: https://www.librarything.com/topic/331302
Nobody seems to be sure exactly why this is sometimes possible, though post 9 in this thread suggests that it might have something to do with users accessing the list via the Facebook announcement.

Since the list of the month is intended as a regular thing, it might increase participation if some of the bugs that affect list useability could be addressed -- i.e., a) clicking on explanations jumping people to the top of the page; b) users sometimes being able to vote for more than the allowed number of titles; c) down votes counting towards the vote limit; d) works being displayed as zero copies on list pages because the entry is not updated to the new work number after work combination.

40lilithcat
Sep 16, 2021, 12:25 pm

>37 AbigailAdams26:

I've downvoted some by non-indigenous authors.

But I also noticed a couple of authors whose claims of being indigenous have been contested, and I'm not sure what, if anything, should be done with those.

41AbigailAdams26
Sep 16, 2021, 12:49 pm

>39 spiphany: Thank you for pointing me to that Talk thread. I have requested that a List of the Month section on the Lists homepage be created, and I will add some of these other suggested improvements to my requests. I have no idea when this will get some attention, given that we have some pretty big projects ongoing right now, but hopefully Lists will get some work at some point in the future.

42AbigailAdams26
Sep 16, 2021, 12:51 pm

>40 lilithcat: Contested seems a different category to me, then definitely not indigenous, as different people have different ideas on how to define this. That said, I'm fairly certain Dee Brown is not. I myself am not able to downvote. I'm not sure if that's because I am the creator of the list?

43spiphany
Sep 16, 2021, 1:08 pm

>42 AbigailAdams26: There's a bug that counts downvotes towards the total allowed votes (if this is set). So presumably you can't downvote because you've already voted for the maximum number of titles. Hence the comment in >34 aspirit: above about having to choose between thumbing down and adding works.

44lorax
Sep 16, 2021, 1:32 pm

I thought that bug had been fixed months ago, did it resurface? I'm 95% sure we were reassured by staff that it had been.

45spiphany
Sep 16, 2021, 2:00 pm

>44 lorax: I don't know whether it was temporarily fixed in the interim, but it definitely is an issue at present (I confirmed)

46dudes22
Editado: Sep 17, 2021, 7:19 am

I'll bet some people didn't read the explanation well enough and thought it meant "by or about" indigenous people. (re: Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee)