List of the Month: Questions and Suggestions
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1megbmore
You may have noticed that I have started adding Lists of the Month to the lists page. I launched this last month with a list of Must Read Books by Black Authors. This month's list is Favorite Science Fiction by Women Authors. Please add to either or both list!
Why am I doing this? Booklists are a common feature of book-related sites, often curated by someone working at the site. I think what makes LibraryThing special is you, our members. Lists that you help to curate will almost certainly be strong ones.
In the end, though, it's not the list itself that matters. It's the discussion that goes into it. Right now, there's a terrific discussion going on about the Science Fiction by Women Authors list over in the Science Fiction Fans group. That's what I'm hoping to see happen with these lists.
Some logistical issues/questions: I have been playing around with the list features. In February I limited contributions to three, but in March I let people add as many books as they wanted. In both cases, I allowed other members to thumb down a choice, but with this month's list, I gave instructions for when and why a book should be thumbed down. I would be very interested to know what your thoughts are about limits, thumbing down, and other list features. Any other general thoughts?
What's next? I'm taking suggestions for upcoming Lists of the Month. The first two have been topical, related to Black History Month and Women's History Month, but they do not have to be. Please share your ideas here.
Why am I doing this? Booklists are a common feature of book-related sites, often curated by someone working at the site. I think what makes LibraryThing special is you, our members. Lists that you help to curate will almost certainly be strong ones.
In the end, though, it's not the list itself that matters. It's the discussion that goes into it. Right now, there's a terrific discussion going on about the Science Fiction by Women Authors list over in the Science Fiction Fans group. That's what I'm hoping to see happen with these lists.
Some logistical issues/questions: I have been playing around with the list features. In February I limited contributions to three, but in March I let people add as many books as they wanted. In both cases, I allowed other members to thumb down a choice, but with this month's list, I gave instructions for when and why a book should be thumbed down. I would be very interested to know what your thoughts are about limits, thumbing down, and other list features. Any other general thoughts?
What's next? I'm taking suggestions for upcoming Lists of the Month. The first two have been topical, related to Black History Month and Women's History Month, but they do not have to be. Please share your ideas here.
2anglemark
>1 megbmore: For thumbs down, I definitely prefer the latter approach, instead of people thumbing down books just because they don't like them. And thanks for creating the lists. Lists are always fun!
3rosalita
First, I love the idea of a monthly list! I think the lists feature has so much potential but it seems not a lot of people use it (including me) so it's nice to get a nudge to do more with it.
I have some general thoughts and suggestions about structure:
I thought the limit of 3 books on the first list was too few, but the free-for-all on the second list has made it unwieldy, perhaps because it's a genre that has a LOT of series and some LTers added every book in a series, for example. You could make a suggestion that people only add the first book of a series but then what if someone thinks it's the fifth book that's clearly the best? A conundrum, for sure. Maybe a limit but at a higher level -- 5? Top 5 lists are popular, as with the annual Top 5 Books of {insert year here} lists that LT staff members contribute to.
You could also think about whether you want to suggest that people only add books they have actually read, which could also help with the "add an author's entire bibliography" problem.
I agree with having the ability to thumb down a book, and in my case that was really a nice point of interaction. I had thumbed down a book and explained in my comment that I didn't think of it as science fiction. Several other people responded (very politely) and explained why they thought it was. I came away with a better understanding of a genre I don't read that often, and ended up removing my thumbs down and adding the book to my own list, because I had read it and loved it even if I didn't think it was SF.
I am not a member of the Science Fiction Fans group but I went over there and had an enjoyable time reading through that thread — it turns out I'm not the only person with some confusion about what, exactly, SF actually is. I think whenever you can peg a list to a particular group, that's a great way to get a more in-depth discussion than just comments on the list. And also get people exploring parts of LT that they may not regularly visit or even know exist.
Anyway, those are just some thoughts that are worth exactly what you paid for them. :-)
Thanks for taking this on, and for developing the social side of LT more. I enjoy the Twitter polls and other engagement on that site as well.
I have some general thoughts and suggestions about structure:
I thought the limit of 3 books on the first list was too few, but the free-for-all on the second list has made it unwieldy, perhaps because it's a genre that has a LOT of series and some LTers added every book in a series, for example. You could make a suggestion that people only add the first book of a series but then what if someone thinks it's the fifth book that's clearly the best? A conundrum, for sure. Maybe a limit but at a higher level -- 5? Top 5 lists are popular, as with the annual Top 5 Books of {insert year here} lists that LT staff members contribute to.
You could also think about whether you want to suggest that people only add books they have actually read, which could also help with the "add an author's entire bibliography" problem.
I agree with having the ability to thumb down a book, and in my case that was really a nice point of interaction. I had thumbed down a book and explained in my comment that I didn't think of it as science fiction. Several other people responded (very politely) and explained why they thought it was. I came away with a better understanding of a genre I don't read that often, and ended up removing my thumbs down and adding the book to my own list, because I had read it and loved it even if I didn't think it was SF.
I am not a member of the Science Fiction Fans group but I went over there and had an enjoyable time reading through that thread — it turns out I'm not the only person with some confusion about what, exactly, SF actually is. I think whenever you can peg a list to a particular group, that's a great way to get a more in-depth discussion than just comments on the list. And also get people exploring parts of LT that they may not regularly visit or even know exist.
Anyway, those are just some thoughts that are worth exactly what you paid for them. :-)
Thanks for taking this on, and for developing the social side of LT more. I enjoy the Twitter polls and other engagement on that site as well.
4tardis
I have a problem with people using thumbs down for "best of" and "favourite" type lists, except in cases where the list has specific criteria and the entry doesn't meet those criteria. An example being the Earthsea books being thumbed down in the Science Fiction list, since they're clearly fantasy. You may hate a book that I consider "best of" but that doesn't invalidate my opinion, and so your hate is not a valid reason for thumbing down, and vice versa. So I think instructions on when to thumb down are good.
As for limits - it's a fine line between allowing too many items and not enough. I guess it depends on the purpose of the list. If we're trying to list all the women who write science fiction, then being able to add more is better. If we're trying to curate a "best of" list, then forcing people to be selective might be better. But what limit? 10? 50? Again here, instructions (or at least suggestions) might help. A reminder that adding only the first book in the series is preferred, as >3 rosalita: suggests? That's my own practice on the Favourite Woman SF writers list, but it is hard not to add later books when I really love them :)
As for limits - it's a fine line between allowing too many items and not enough. I guess it depends on the purpose of the list. If we're trying to list all the women who write science fiction, then being able to add more is better. If we're trying to curate a "best of" list, then forcing people to be selective might be better. But what limit? 10? 50? Again here, instructions (or at least suggestions) might help. A reminder that adding only the first book in the series is preferred, as >3 rosalita: suggests? That's my own practice on the Favourite Woman SF writers list, but it is hard not to add later books when I really love them :)
5Maddz
To help with adding all the books in a series, would it be possible to add a series as a whole to a list? That would help with people adding the complete bibliography!
6paradoxosalpha
Community lists are a plus. I commented in https://www.librarything.com/list/42911/all/Favorite-Science-Fiction-by-Women-Au...
that I think the Science Fiction Fans group could usefully come up with new community lists of its own on a regular basis.
I strongly endorse the idea of limiting thumbs-down to dispute the relevance of list additions, not their general quality or the affection in which they are held.
I think limiting each member's additions is reasonable, and maybe useful. Five might be as effective, while more generous than three.
that I think the Science Fiction Fans group could usefully come up with new community lists of its own on a regular basis.
I strongly endorse the idea of limiting thumbs-down to dispute the relevance of list additions, not their general quality or the affection in which they are held.
I think limiting each member's additions is reasonable, and maybe useful. Five might be as effective, while more generous than three.
7amanda4242
Thumbs down: Not everyone uses lists in the same way, and a thumbs down may mean anything from "I hate this book" to "I haven't read this book." Having an explanation of what a thumbs down means for a specific list is helpful.
Limits: If a list is a Top 5 or 10 or whatever number, then we should only be able to add that many. If it's Best of, Must Read, etc., then any limit should be much higher than three and should be clearly stated in the description.
Future lists: Looking over the current list, it's heavy on English language authors, with a large portion of those from the US. Perhaps a future list could focus on non-English language works? And there are already some pretty cool lists on LT, so maybe highlight a preexisting one?
Limits: If a list is a Top 5 or 10 or whatever number, then we should only be able to add that many. If it's Best of, Must Read, etc., then any limit should be much higher than three and should be clearly stated in the description.
Future lists: Looking over the current list, it's heavy on English language authors, with a large portion of those from the US. Perhaps a future list could focus on non-English language works? And there are already some pretty cool lists on LT, so maybe highlight a preexisting one?
8rosalita
>5 Maddz: I love the idea of being able to add a series to a list, especially now that we have touchstones for them, but I've never tried to do it. Does it work?
9rosalita
>7 amanda4242: I like the idea of limits being tailored to the type of list. And along those lines, a list where people had to pick the one book they would recommend that fits the list criteria would also be very interesting, especially if they added a comment about why they chose it.
10dudes22
>1 megbmore: - I don't see a "Lists of the Month" on the list link although I see the science fiction list under recent lists. (and read the thread over on the SF group) I see you said you launched this last month and I missed the one from last month because I don't think I saw it mentioned anywhere. I noticed you said that you mention it on Facebook, but please remember that not all of us choose to be on Facebook. I would like to see a mention either here in the talk thread or as a "top news" item. I like the idea of a monthly list topic.
11Aquila
>7 amanda4242: I like the idea of highlighting some existing lists. And of non-English and non-American centred lists.
12lorax
I didn't see it last month, either. I gave up Facebook last summer in the interest of my mental health, and even when I was there I certainly wouldn't have seen something from LT.
13sturlington
I really like the idea of a monthly list topic. Lists need a lot of participation to become interesting and useful.
I will reiterate here what I said in the discussion on the science fiction thread. I think if you want a curated list, it is helpful to limit how many each person can add, because it forces the person to really consider their choices. On the must-read black authors list, I tried to add books I thought were a must-read and weren't already on the list, for instance.
Once a really good list is created, I find I would like to read some of the books from it. It would be really nice to be able to check an option, "Want to read" on the lists. That way, you can create a personal reading list from an existing list separate from the books you've added to the list or already read. Right now, if I'm trying to read through a particular list, I thumbs down books I don't want to read, but that seems punitive.
I will reiterate here what I said in the discussion on the science fiction thread. I think if you want a curated list, it is helpful to limit how many each person can add, because it forces the person to really consider their choices. On the must-read black authors list, I tried to add books I thought were a must-read and weren't already on the list, for instance.
Once a really good list is created, I find I would like to read some of the books from it. It would be really nice to be able to check an option, "Want to read" on the lists. That way, you can create a personal reading list from an existing list separate from the books you've added to the list or already read. Right now, if I'm trying to read through a particular list, I thumbs down books I don't want to read, but that seems punitive.
14spiphany
As a compulsive list-maker, I'm happy to see the list feature getting more attention and I think a list of the month is a good way to generate discussions.
A few thoughts in this context:
- It would be helpful to have better search/browse functionality on the list page. At present it often isn't obvious or easy to quickly determine whether there is already a list on a particular topic, and I know I've started lists a few times only to later discover that a very similar one already existed. (Sometimes this is valuable, because the other list has a slightly different take on the theme; but sometimes the two lists are largely redundant.)
- I suspect my use of lists may be somewhat different than that of many users here. I typically use lists as a way of collecting titles on a particular topic or fitting certain criteria, especially ones that aren't otherwise likely to be recorded by things like tags or awards. I rarely use the ranking options.
In other words, I'm not generally interested in "favorites" or "best of" lists, but in tracking thematic connections and/or finding new books to read. Completism is more important to me than popularity.
I actually find many of the highly active lists not very helpful for this reason, because as more people vote, the more popular titles tend to float to the top -- and these are likely to be titles I've already read or already heard of, so discovering new titles requires a lot of digging.
Even given that in some ways I'm not necessarily the main target audience of a "list of the month" feature, a few suggestions that come to mind: I would like to see topics that are a little less broad and somewhat less likely to be something that people have already created lists about (on LT or elsewhere). Also topics that lend themselves to participation across genre and national lines are always a plus. Not everyone here is based in the US, or reads exclusively in English.
For encouraging a diversity of responses, "desert island" books might work, or "first book you remember reading", or "books with characters whom you'd like to meet/have coffee with".
The occasional non-fiction topic would be welcome (Earth Day is coming up, for example).
A few thoughts in this context:
- It would be helpful to have better search/browse functionality on the list page. At present it often isn't obvious or easy to quickly determine whether there is already a list on a particular topic, and I know I've started lists a few times only to later discover that a very similar one already existed. (Sometimes this is valuable, because the other list has a slightly different take on the theme; but sometimes the two lists are largely redundant.)
- I suspect my use of lists may be somewhat different than that of many users here. I typically use lists as a way of collecting titles on a particular topic or fitting certain criteria, especially ones that aren't otherwise likely to be recorded by things like tags or awards. I rarely use the ranking options.
In other words, I'm not generally interested in "favorites" or "best of" lists, but in tracking thematic connections and/or finding new books to read. Completism is more important to me than popularity.
I actually find many of the highly active lists not very helpful for this reason, because as more people vote, the more popular titles tend to float to the top -- and these are likely to be titles I've already read or already heard of, so discovering new titles requires a lot of digging.
Even given that in some ways I'm not necessarily the main target audience of a "list of the month" feature, a few suggestions that come to mind: I would like to see topics that are a little less broad and somewhat less likely to be something that people have already created lists about (on LT or elsewhere). Also topics that lend themselves to participation across genre and national lines are always a plus. Not everyone here is based in the US, or reads exclusively in English.
For encouraging a diversity of responses, "desert island" books might work, or "first book you remember reading", or "books with characters whom you'd like to meet/have coffee with".
The occasional non-fiction topic would be welcome (Earth Day is coming up, for example).
15aspirit
I would appreciate a nonfiction List of the Month for Earth Day next month. We have related lists on this site but not one, as far as I've seen, in the Lists area.
>14 spiphany: The way I use lists seems to be similar to how you do. Oftentimes, I ignore the top works to look for reading material or inspiration in the last pages.
>14 spiphany: The way I use lists seems to be similar to how you do. Oftentimes, I ignore the top works to look for reading material or inspiration in the last pages.
16spiphany
>15 aspirit: Yeah, I typically focus on the last or penultimate pages of a list in such cases, but that often requires filtering out the hidden gems from amongst the inapplicable or frequently-read but disliked books. And I suspect that after a certain point, people become discouraged from adding their more obscure favorites to "best of" lists at all because the popular titles already have so many votes.
Also if I click on a title to find out more about it and then use the "back" button in my browser, the list defaults to the first page, which makes browsing higher-numbered list pages a rather annoying process...
Also if I click on a title to find out more about it and then use the "back" button in my browser, the list defaults to the first page, which makes browsing higher-numbered list pages a rather annoying process...
17megbmore
Thank you for all of this feedback!
In terms of getting the word out, I'm using:
* Groups: for February I posted in Book Talk. I think going into groups related to the topic is more effective, so I plan on doing that.
* Facebook and Twitter
* State of the Thing (SOTT)
* And, thanks to your suggestions, I've added it to the Homepage.
Anywhere else?
It sounds like there is some consensus around imposing a limit of books allowed to be added, but that three was too few. I do also like the idea of a list where people can only contribute one book: One Book to Rule them All. It would be horrible, but the fun kind of horrible.
I will definitely keep adding instructions around the thumbs down option and how we want it used for these lists.
Still reading and thinking, but this is all great so far and I appreciate the enthusiasm.
Edited to clarify what SOTT is. I should not post right before lunch.
In terms of getting the word out, I'm using:
* Groups: for February I posted in Book Talk. I think going into groups related to the topic is more effective, so I plan on doing that.
* Facebook and Twitter
* State of the Thing (SOTT)
* And, thanks to your suggestions, I've added it to the Homepage.
Anywhere else?
It sounds like there is some consensus around imposing a limit of books allowed to be added, but that three was too few. I do also like the idea of a list where people can only contribute one book: One Book to Rule them All. It would be horrible, but the fun kind of horrible.
I will definitely keep adding instructions around the thumbs down option and how we want it used for these lists.
Still reading and thinking, but this is all great so far and I appreciate the enthusiasm.
Edited to clarify what SOTT is. I should not post right before lunch.
19amanda4242
>18 lilithcat: State of the Thing, the monthly newsletter.
21Morphidae
Thumbs down should relate to the type of list you are creating.
For a Best of/Must Read list, I am going to thumbs down a book I don't think deserves to be on the list because I don't think it's one of the "Best" or a "Must Read." If enough people think it's "Best" then it will rise to the top.
If it's simply a list... LGBTQ+ Neurodiverse Characters in Fantasy. Or Your Top 5 Historical Fiction Set Before 1850, etc. I'm only going to thumbs down if it doesn't fit that list.
For a Best of/Must Read list, I am going to thumbs down a book I don't think deserves to be on the list because I don't think it's one of the "Best" or a "Must Read." If enough people think it's "Best" then it will rise to the top.
If it's simply a list... LGBTQ+ Neurodiverse Characters in Fantasy. Or Your Top 5 Historical Fiction Set Before 1850, etc. I'm only going to thumbs down if it doesn't fit that list.
22AuntDaisyG
>1 megbmore: June is Pride Month and I'd love to see an LGBTQIA+ themed list.
23paradoxosalpha
> 15 a nonfiction List of the Month for Earth Day next month
I just finished reading I'm with the Bears: Short Stories from a Damaged Planet. I think a list of books--fiction and non-fiction--about climate change and environmental peril could be worth building.
I am especially interested in lists that would cross the fiction/non-fiction divide.
I just finished reading I'm with the Bears: Short Stories from a Damaged Planet. I think a list of books--fiction and non-fiction--about climate change and environmental peril could be worth building.
I am especially interested in lists that would cross the fiction/non-fiction divide.
24aspirit
>24 aspirit: You might be interested in the Books to Read for Earth Day list (which I wish I had a more accurate name to show it's for fiction).
https://www.librarything.com/list/9981/all/Books-to-Read-for-Earth-Day
https://www.librarything.com/list/9981/all/Books-to-Read-for-Earth-Day
25paradoxosalpha
>24 aspirit:
Nice list, I could add to it. At the risk of repeating myself, though, I enjoy the mixing of fiction and nonfiction titles, and think that there's value in crossing that boundary.
Nice list, I could add to it. At the risk of repeating myself, though, I enjoy the mixing of fiction and nonfiction titles, and think that there's value in crossing that boundary.
26sturlington
>24 aspirit: Your wish is my command!
27aspirit
>26 sturlington: I feel magical! Thank you!
28Diversity
>Others have commented nicely about the structure of the lists. Thus I'm going to suggest themes for future lists.
Native American heritage month is observed in November. How about a list of fiction or nonfiction titles by NA authors or where the protagonist is NA?
And, one of my favorite authors as a child was Laura Ingalls Wilder. Has anyone looked to see if she or her daughter Rose Wilder Lane have papers or personal libraries worthy of cataloging?
Perhaps it's also worth checking on Sen's John Lewis and Elijah Cummings. They too may have something to catalogue.
Native American heritage month is observed in November. How about a list of fiction or nonfiction titles by NA authors or where the protagonist is NA?
And, one of my favorite authors as a child was Laura Ingalls Wilder. Has anyone looked to see if she or her daughter Rose Wilder Lane have papers or personal libraries worthy of cataloging?
Perhaps it's also worth checking on Sen's John Lewis and Elijah Cummings. They too may have something to catalogue.
29lilithcat
>28 Diversity:
You might suggest Laura Ingalls Wilder and Rose Wilder Lane over in the Legacy Library group: https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/2998/Legacy-Libraries
It's probably too soon for John Lewis' or Elijah Cummings' libraries to have been catalogued anywhere.
You might suggest Laura Ingalls Wilder and Rose Wilder Lane over in the Legacy Library group: https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/2998/Legacy-Libraries
It's probably too soon for John Lewis' or Elijah Cummings' libraries to have been catalogued anywhere.
30timspalding
It's probably too soon for John Lewis' or Elijah Cummings' libraries to have been catalogued anywhere.
Man, I HOPE John Lewis's books get cataloged. I doubt it. So many really important libraries just get broken up and that's that.
Man, I HOPE John Lewis's books get cataloged. I doubt it. So many really important libraries just get broken up and that's that.
31lilithcat
>30 timspalding:
I know. There you are, browsing Powell's or, before they moved to Indiana(!!), O'Gara & Wilson's, you open a book, and there's some Nobelist Laureate's bookplate.
~sigh~
I know. There you are, browsing Powell's or, before they moved to Indiana(!!), O'Gara & Wilson's, you open a book, and there's some Nobelist Laureate's bookplate.
~sigh~
32timspalding
>31 lilithcat:
There is a particular very important speculative-fiction novelist who died several years ago. We had discussions with their heir about cataloging their library, and couldn't swing it. Or get them to find someone else, like a university to do it. There may be a semi-catalog when they're sold off. It makes me truly, deeply angry and sad.
There is a particular very important speculative-fiction novelist who died several years ago. We had discussions with their heir about cataloging their library, and couldn't swing it. Or get them to find someone else, like a university to do it. There may be a semi-catalog when they're sold off. It makes me truly, deeply angry and sad.
33LibraryCin
I've perused through the first half of the comments, so far.
I pretty much agree with people's thoughts on a number of titles someone can add and the thumbs down.
I also like the idea of highlighting already made lists.
There is probably already a list for this, but I was going to suggest a Scary/Creepy books list (maybe in October, if you wanted to stick with a theme that fits the month).
I pretty much agree with people's thoughts on a number of titles someone can add and the thumbs down.
I also like the idea of highlighting already made lists.
There is probably already a list for this, but I was going to suggest a Scary/Creepy books list (maybe in October, if you wanted to stick with a theme that fits the month).
34susanbooks
>31 lilithcat: >30 timspalding: A few years ago I was at a library book sale in Newton, Massachusetts & they had boxes of books they were selling for a dollar or two from Howard Zinn's library (some of which are now in mine). That was both depressing & awe-inspiring
35AbigailAdams26
Hi All! I'm just checking in here to let you all know that I hope to continue upon and build Meg's idea of having a monthly community-curated LibraryThing list. I've read through the posts here, and think there are some great ideas. Please continue to post, if you have further thoughts or suggestions.
Also, I have been contacted privately, with a request for the location of all of the monthly lists. Although we do not currently have them grouped all together, I am posting this list of lists here, for your convenience. It appears also in SOTT (State of the Thing), and will be included when announcing new monthly lists as well.
February: Must Read Books by Black Authors
March: Favorite Science Fiction by Women Authors
April: Recommended Nature Writing
May: Must-Read Maine Books
June: Favorite Caribbean Books
July: Best Beach Reads
Also, I have been contacted privately, with a request for the location of all of the monthly lists. Although we do not currently have them grouped all together, I am posting this list of lists here, for your convenience. It appears also in SOTT (State of the Thing), and will be included when announcing new monthly lists as well.
February: Must Read Books by Black Authors
March: Favorite Science Fiction by Women Authors
April: Recommended Nature Writing
May: Must-Read Maine Books
June: Favorite Caribbean Books
July: Best Beach Reads
36Morphidae
>35 AbigailAdams26: This needs to be promoted more. The numbers participating reduced drastically. Personally, the last one I remember seeing is the March one.
38susanbooks
>37 al.vick: I didn't know about it either but I just added to it
39Aquila
>37 al.vick: None of the lists are closed off, you can still add to them.
40AbigailAdams26
>36 Morphidae: Good point! This is definitely something we need to work on.
41AbigailAdams26
>37 al.vick: As susanbooks and Aquila mention, you should still be able to participate and add books, even if the official month has passed.
42al.vick
>39 Aquila: They are there now, but didn't show up yesterday. Maybe there was some transitory issue. :)
43al.vick
Interesting that the Must Read Books by Black Authors list has a limit of 3 books per user, when I think the others are limited to 5.
44AbigailAdams26
>43 al.vick: Yes, that was the first monthly list, and I believe Meg was still experimenting, in terms of how to structure it. Subsequently, she moved on to a five book limit.
45lorax
I'd like to participate again, but until they fix the bug that thumbs down counts toward your limit of five, so that you can't vote something down if you've already added your books, I don't really see the point.
46amanda4242
>45 lorax: It looks like it's fixed. I just tested it with the February list and I was able to thumb down after I hit the three book limit.
48AbigailAdams26
>47 anglemark: Sorry about that! The image itself is a link, but I can add one in the text as well.
49anglemark
>48 AbigailAdams26: Ah. I wouldn't have realised that. There's always been an overt link in the text. If I can keep wishing, can you make the link site neutral, so it links to the site the user is on, and not hard coded to the English site?
50AbigailAdams26
>49 anglemark: I have made the link site neutral, as you request, and will do that, going forward. Thank you for the suggestion.
51anglemark
>50 AbigailAdams26: You're spoiling me! Thanks! :)
53anglemark
>52 ngood77: What's a campus novel? Cult book among uni students? Explain to a poor non-American! :)
54aspirit
>53 anglemark: I doubt that's (only) an American term. ngood77 is English/European; as an American who frequent book lists, I haven't heard of campus novels before; and a web search brings up sources from the UK.
As for a description, Wikipedia has an entry on "campus novel".
As for a description, Wikipedia has an entry on "campus novel".
55anglemark
>54 aspirit: Thank you! I had never heard the term before.
56Maddz
>54 aspirit: No doubt your maths teacher could sing the following in a cod-Russian accent:
Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva buys movie rights for six million rubles,
Changing title to "The Eternal Triangle",
With Brigitte Bardot playing part of hypotenuse.
Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva buys movie rights for six million rubles,
Changing title to "The Eternal Triangle",
With Brigitte Bardot playing part of hypotenuse.
57AbigailAdams26
>52 ngood77: I will certainly add the campus/college novel to a list of possible future topics. Thank you, Nick.
58AbigailAdams26
>54 aspirit: A very interesting Wikipedia article, thank you. The college novel, which is obviously very similar (if not the same thing) to the campus novel, was quite common in children's and youth literature, far before the 1950s. There was a very interesting boom in American women's/girls' college novels and series, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, coinciding with the rise of college education for women in that period. Most of these books are forgotten today, and are no doubt not what is intended by the term "campus novel." Still, very interesting.
59AbigailAdams26
For those interested, I have cataloged over 200 examples of college fiction (American, British and German), from the field of children's literature (my field), here:
https://www.librarything.com/catalog/AbigailAdams26&tag=college%2Bfiction
https://www.librarything.com/catalog/AbigailAdams26&tag=college%2Bfiction
60susanbooks
This whole thread is one of the many reasons I love Librarything.
62paradoxosalpha
I don't read campus novels with attention to that genre, but I'm sure I could come up with a short list.
63abbottthomas
Just another thing that reminds me how old I am. Apart from an occasional use to describe the physical situation of a school or university, in my university days 'campus' was entirely an American term, as distinct from English English as 'sidewalk' or 'elevator'.
64RuMuse
>35 AbigailAdams26: I am very happy to have discovered this new LT feature, a community-curated monthly themed list, and contributed to the July Best Beach Reads list.
This is a comment, not a question: I inferred from a peruse of this list that "best beach read" for most contributors implied books that take place on a seashore, or had a beach-related theme, or a title word that related somehow to a beach. This was intriguing. To me, a "beach read" suggests a book that is engaging and easy to read, generally light in tone, and funny, hopeful, feel-good or easily rewarding in some other way. It isn't necessarily related to a beach theme at all. (eg one of my top picks takes place in Manhattan and there's nothing about a beach; I added it because it's a fun read.) Makes me wonder if most readers connect "beach read" more literally, with beaches.
This is a comment, not a question: I inferred from a peruse of this list that "best beach read" for most contributors implied books that take place on a seashore, or had a beach-related theme, or a title word that related somehow to a beach. This was intriguing. To me, a "beach read" suggests a book that is engaging and easy to read, generally light in tone, and funny, hopeful, feel-good or easily rewarding in some other way. It isn't necessarily related to a beach theme at all. (eg one of my top picks takes place in Manhattan and there's nothing about a beach; I added it because it's a fun read.) Makes me wonder if most readers connect "beach read" more literally, with beaches.
65Morphidae
>64 RuMuse: Not me. I was going to add to it until I realized people were taking "beach read" literally.
66AbigailAdams26
>64 RuMuse: Welcome! I'm glad you discovered this new project, and that you contributed. I think different members interpreted the list differently, and proceeded accordingly. I find both approaches quite interesting, although I don't know how much of a resource the list will be, because of the variety of mindsets, when it comes to defining a "beach read." No doubt that is down to me, and my poorly thought out set of parameters!
67lorax
MsRoux (#64):
I would venture to guess that a large majority of the people posting a more literal interpretation of "beach read" are in fact very familiar with the usual meaning of the phrase, and deliberately chose not to comply with it and be deliberately over-literal. (Or, some of the titles may have been both, in the minds of the posters.)
Being an overly-literal type who has little patience with the notion that only fluff is suited to be read at a beach - or that fluff can only be read at a beach, take your pick - I'd have added titles like How to Read a North Carolina Beach (the title has "Beach" and "Read" in it, right there!) and Waves and Beaches. But I also know that people looking for fluff wouldn't have found that as amusing as I do, so I didn't.
I would venture to guess that a large majority of the people posting a more literal interpretation of "beach read" are in fact very familiar with the usual meaning of the phrase, and deliberately chose not to comply with it and be deliberately over-literal. (Or, some of the titles may have been both, in the minds of the posters.)
Being an overly-literal type who has little patience with the notion that only fluff is suited to be read at a beach - or that fluff can only be read at a beach, take your pick - I'd have added titles like How to Read a North Carolina Beach (the title has "Beach" and "Read" in it, right there!) and Waves and Beaches. But I also know that people looking for fluff wouldn't have found that as amusing as I do, so I didn't.
68aspirit
>67 lorax: Those are two of my favorite titles on the list! I didn't know the books exist until I saw them there, and I've since learned I can find Orrin H. Pilkey's Atlantic Coast Beaches at one of the libraries I visit when it's not too dangerous.
The game some of us played to avoid the usual "beach read" meaning allowed more of these obscure books to rise to the surface, making for a more interesting list.
The game some of us played to avoid the usual "beach read" meaning allowed more of these obscure books to rise to the surface, making for a more interesting list.
69paradoxosalpha
I mostly added titles according to the conventional understanding of "beach read" (light, entertaining novels--nothing you couldn't manage to read while relaxing or that would make you cry in public), but I picked up on the other meaning being used and played along with one or two punny instances.
70AbigailAdams26
Hey all: I wanted to let you know that I have created a dedicated group for discussion of the List of the Month project, here:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/23491/List-of-the-Month
All are welcome to come and join the group!
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/23491/List-of-the-Month
All are welcome to come and join the group!
71dudes22
I wonder if you could put the monthly lists that are in post #35 up in the intro so that new people can more easily find what each month's list was and get to them more easily once a theme has been decided?
72AbigailAdams26
>71 dudes22: Unfortunately, Meg is the one who began this project, and who made the initial post. I am not able to edit her comments. I could unpin this thread, and start a brand new suggestions thread, with that information, if you think it would be helpful.
73dudes22
>72 AbigailAdams26: - Oh - Sorry - I saw you were the administrator so I thought you could do that. Or maybe just do the topic like the July and May topics where you can see what the list is. In case I didn't want to choose to make the list a favorite but might want to come back and look at it later.
74AbigailAdams26
>73 dudes22: I am the administrator of the group, and I now lead the List of the Month project, but it was begun earlier this year by my predecessor, Meg. I had all the List of the Month Talk threads migrated to this new group, because I thought it made sense of have them all together. That said, I cannot edit Meg's comment, any more than I can edit yours - that would be against LT policy.
I have included a full list in our Welcome thread, above this one, and I will update it each month.
https://www.librarything.com/topic/334354
I have included a full list in our Welcome thread, above this one, and I will update it each month.
https://www.librarything.com/topic/334354
75dudes22
>74 AbigailAdams26: - I understand. Thanks for the lists.
76Michael72
I love the List of the Month idea. Among your many suggestions I'll add my own. Espionage Fiction. The genre would include authors such as the late John LeCarre', Alan Furst, Robert Littell, Len Deighton, and everyone's favorite, Ian Flemming although Bond can be a bit on the fantastic side whereas LeCarre' is far more realistic as well as literary. Just my two-cents worth. Oh, and thanks for all you do with Library Thing.
77paradoxosalpha
+1 to spy fi!
78AbigailAdams26
>76 Michael72: Welcome to the group (and apologies for the delayed response). I will definitely add Espionage Fiction / spy-fi to the list of ideas. It sounds like a fun list idea!
79Muscogulus
Not even a big reader of spy novels but I +1 the Espionage Fiction list. Some of the best novels I've ever read happen to be in that category.
80aspirit
With what's in the news lately, I suspect the interest in an Espionage Fiction list would be strong this month.
81paradoxosalpha
Indeed!
82AbigailAdams26
>79 Muscogulus: >80 aspirit: >81 paradoxosalpha: OK, the thread for September is up, and I have noted that a number of you are leaning toward espionage fiction: September 2022 List of the Month.
83sturlington
Will there be a best of the year list for December again?
84AbigailAdams26
>83 sturlington: Yes! Our List of the Month is up, and is devoted to Top Five Books of 2022. Come and add your picks!
85FireflyLover
February is the month for Valentine’s Day so I was thinking of a list of black, female, romance authors. This would recognize black history, female authors, and the romance genre.
OR
A list of romance authors encumbering best sellers, award winning, popular contemporary, romantic suspense, rom com, LGBTQ, erotic, fantasy, Sci Fi, historical, new adult, paranormal, sports, & YA.
Thank you.
DeeAnn
OR
A list of romance authors encumbering best sellers, award winning, popular contemporary, romantic suspense, rom com, LGBTQ, erotic, fantasy, Sci Fi, historical, new adult, paranormal, sports, & YA.
Thank you.
DeeAnn
86susanbooks
>85 FireflyLover: I love your idea! Romance as a genre is kind of niche, though. Could we broaden it to writing about love? Then we can include literary fiction, biography, poetry, etc.
87tardis
>86 susanbooks: I wouldn't call Romance as a genre "niche" - it's enormous and varied. I think the problem would be narrowing it sufficiently to be meaningful and manageable.
For example, limit to one KIND of romance - historical romance, romances with bookstores in them, paranormal romance, SF romance, etc.
For example, limit to one KIND of romance - historical romance, romances with bookstores in them, paranormal romance, SF romance, etc.
88susanbooks
>87 tardis: The topics within Romance may be varied but I still think of the genre as a whole as a niche one. There are lots of stores that don't even sell Romance (or Westerns. I'm thinking especially of a few stores in Boston.) Though LT has certainly been redefining the genre with the books now listed under Romance in the new genre thing. Jane Eyre & Jane Austen, mon dieu!
I know I'm sounding snottier than I mean to. I'm just thinking that a Romance-only list might keep a lot of listmakers out of the whole thing.
I know I'm sounding snottier than I mean to. I'm just thinking that a Romance-only list might keep a lot of listmakers out of the whole thing.
89anglemark
>88 susanbooks: I think you might be right, but on the other hand, we need new fresh topics month after month, and they cannot appeal to everyone all of them. Personally, even though I don't read books marketed as Romance, I'd have no problem adding books with Romantic Love as the main motif to such a list, and such books I have definitely read.
90lilithcat
>85 FireflyLover: -
A list of romance authors encumbering best sellers . . .
I don't understand what you mean by "encumbering" in this context.
A list of romance authors encumbering best sellers . . .
I don't understand what you mean by "encumbering" in this context.
91lilithcat
>89 anglemark:
Why not just call it "Romantic Love", then? Because I think >88 susanbooks: is right. A lot of people hear "Romance" and they think of Harlequins, etc. rather than a broader picture.
Why not just call it "Romantic Love", then? Because I think >88 susanbooks: is right. A lot of people hear "Romance" and they think of Harlequins, etc. rather than a broader picture.
92AbigailAdams26
How would "Romantic Fiction" be? That would encompass romance novels, as a current genre, but also fiction from other genres with a romantic theme.
93hipdeep
I'd probably have nothing to add to a list of "romance" novels, but I have to say I don't find it more of a specialized niche than many we've already done. I had to skip "noir" too, and that's OK. (And I've voted on many which I'm not convinced are more expansive just because they included me.)
94anglemark
>92 AbigailAdams26: Sounds good to me.
95paradoxosalpha
"Romantic" is a little vexed, since it has a specific reference to a literary school emerging from the late 18th century, reacting against Enlightenment rationalism, and identified with writers like Wordsworth, Goethe, Lord Byron and so on. See, for example, the critical treatment in Romantic Image, which traces the features of this school persisting into 19th- and 20th-century works.
I get that a more vernacular (i.e. marketing) sense is intended here, but the plain phrase "Romantic fiction" is a stumbling-block for overeducated readers like me.
I get that a more vernacular (i.e. marketing) sense is intended here, but the plain phrase "Romantic fiction" is a stumbling-block for overeducated readers like me.
96susanbooks
>95 paradoxosalpha: Agreed. Romance (with a capital R), Romanticism, & romance are all very different things. It's clunky, but again I offer, "writing about love."
97paradoxosalpha
Yeah, "fiction about love and amorous relationships" seems sufficiently explicit.
98lorax
susanbooks (#88):
While I'm not a romance fan myself, it's far from niche. It sells very well, and stores not selling it is more due to preconceptions about the genre and its readers than its obscurity. (The similar biases against SF are waning.)
Don't participate if you're not interested or don't read relevant books, but don't dismiss a massive and popular genre because it's not your cup of tea.
While I'm not a romance fan myself, it's far from niche. It sells very well, and stores not selling it is more due to preconceptions about the genre and its readers than its obscurity. (The similar biases against SF are waning.)
Don't participate if you're not interested or don't read relevant books, but don't dismiss a massive and popular genre because it's not your cup of tea.
99susanbooks
>98 lorax: Yes, Romance sells well as a commodity. But within the world of books it is indeed often dismissed (I noted that there are several bookstores around here that won't even sell it). Hence, my suggestion that we broaden the subject. I didn't go into the merits or politics behind the reasons for Romance's dismissal. Janice Radway does a great job of that in Reading the Romance. My point is simply that a group project might benefit from a wider pool of participants & limiting the topic to Romance would, it seems to me, not yield that result.
As for its being "my cup of tea," none of my comments have dissed the genre's quality, so that's your thing.
As for its being "my cup of tea," none of my comments have dissed the genre's quality, so that's your thing.
100AnnieMod
>99 susanbooks: You are not making the argument you think you are making. :) The fact that a whole genre is dismissed is even more of a reason for us to have a list about it...
As for romance being niche... Niche in terms of recognition as literature by the gatekeepers of "high literature" - sure. Niche in terms of popularity and readership? No more than thrillers are niche. Or biographies are niche. If anything, romances may be more popular than either of these genres...
As for romance being niche... Niche in terms of recognition as literature by the gatekeepers of "high literature" - sure. Niche in terms of popularity and readership? No more than thrillers are niche. Or biographies are niche. If anything, romances may be more popular than either of these genres...
101susanbooks
>100 AnnieMod: And if someone suggested thrillers as a topic, I'd also suggest that might be too niche for a site-wide project.
I know exactly the argument I'm making, thanks. You're making a very different one, which has merit & is persuasive, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm saying.
Can we not assume that everyone comes from a place of goodwill without having to snipe & condescend?
I know exactly the argument I'm making, thanks. You're making a very different one, which has merit & is persuasive, but that doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm saying.
Can we not assume that everyone comes from a place of goodwill without having to snipe & condescend?
102Morphidae
>101 susanbooks: Are you saying that the themes of the lists are *not* niche?
Genre reads are simply half way between the so general you can stick anything into it lists (Pleasant Surprises, Top 5 Books of 2022) and the narrowly focused niche lists (Pre-1969 LGBTQ+ Literature, The Cookbooks of Home.)
*******
As far as what to call it, Romance Literature is just fine.
Doing some research I have found it is not a term restricted to a certain subset of literature. In fact, many librarians across the US use the term to refer to all forms of romance.
I'm sure as a literature professor or "over-educated reader" that isn't something that sits well.
However, most of us are not professors, or teachers, though I'd argue with term "over-educated", and like the average LT reader, we read quite a bit of genre fiction of one type of another. After all, there aren't a whole lot of books published that aren't in one genre/niche or another. Even literary novels.
Genre reads are simply half way between the so general you can stick anything into it lists (Pleasant Surprises, Top 5 Books of 2022) and the narrowly focused niche lists (Pre-1969 LGBTQ+ Literature, The Cookbooks of Home.)
*******
As far as what to call it, Romance Literature is just fine.
Doing some research I have found it is not a term restricted to a certain subset of literature. In fact, many librarians across the US use the term to refer to all forms of romance.
I'm sure as a literature professor or "over-educated reader" that isn't something that sits well.
However, most of us are not professors, or teachers, though I'd argue with term "over-educated", and like the average LT reader, we read quite a bit of genre fiction of one type of another. After all, there aren't a whole lot of books published that aren't in one genre/niche or another. Even literary novels.
103paradoxosalpha
>102 Morphidae:
At the further risk of construing myself as a pedant, I'd like to point out that the term I objected to was "Romantic fiction" not "Romance Literature."
I agree that "niche" status should be no barrier to a list topic.
At the further risk of construing myself as a pedant, I'd like to point out that the term I objected to was "Romantic fiction" not "Romance Literature."
I agree that "niche" status should be no barrier to a list topic.
104Morphidae
>103 paradoxosalpha: Point taken.
105tardis
I have a new suggestion for a list some day: epistolary novels (novels written as a series of letters). It may be a bit more "niche" than most suggestions, but I have a few across several genres and would be interested in finding more.
107anglemark
>105 tardis: Oh, yes! Easily my favourite suggestion so far.
108reconditereader
>105 tardis: I love the books tagged as "epistolary" in my library. They're so fun!
110tardis
I just had what seemed at first to be a really good idea - favourite fiction about food and/or cooking, because I just bought a copy of Food for the Gods by Karen Dudley. Second thoughts suggested such a list might get overwhelmed by all those cozy mysteries and romances featuring bakers, tea shop owners, and restauranteurs, but maybe it wouldn't be too bad.
111AbigailAdams26
>110 tardis: I think that's a great idea! Adding it to the list.
112lilithcat
>110 tardis: -
It could always be “favorite fiction (NOT mysteries or romance) about food and/or cooking”!
It could always be “favorite fiction (NOT mysteries or romance) about food and/or cooking”!
113rosalita
>112 lilithcat: Or possibly "no books that are part of a series" although I don't know if that would eliminate all of the romance options as well as your suggestion.
114paradoxosalpha
My top pick for that category would be Confessions of a Flesh-Eater.
115tardis
>112 lilithcat: >113 rosalita: On reflection, I don't think it's fair to eliminate mysteries and romance. I mean, I can't think of a really good not-cliche-ridden romance about food/cooking but that doesn't mean there aren't any - maybe some of Katie Fforde's books? I don't read very much romance, but I do read a lot of mysteries and there are some really good ones where food is important, like some of S.J. Rozan's Lydia Chin/Bill Smith mysteries, or Kerry Greenwood's Corrina Chapman mysteries.
116AbigailTesting
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