The Magic Mountain, September/October Group read

Hello everyone! We are planning a group read of The Magic Mountain by Thomas Mann for September (and possibly October - it's a long book!). All are welcome!

Please check in if you're planning to participate. I'm also curious how people would like this group read managed? It's such a long book, and probably complex, so it might be nice to stay around the same pace so that we can discuss and ask questions of each other along the way.

The book is broken into 7 volumes and my edition is 854 pages. I'll propose two different paces.

Option 1 (full speed ahead):
Week 1: Parts 1,2,3,4 (174 pages)
Week 2: Part 5 (165 pages)
Week 3: Part 6 (181 pages)
Week 4: Part 7 (201 pages)

Option 2 (leisurely pace, time for other reading!):
Same as the above, but 2 weeks for each section, taking us 8 weeks to complete.
Week 1&2 (August 31-September 13): Parts 1-4
Week 3&4 (September 14 - Sept 27): Part 5
Week 5&6 (September 28-October 11): Part 6
Week 7&8 (October 12 - October 25): Part 7

Please chime in to let everyone know your preference or if you'd rather just have everyone read at his/her own pace and comment as desired using the spoiler feature or at least bold chapter headings.

I am good with either but kind of like option 2 a bit more than 1. Keeps me from getting distracted if there is a goal to work towards.

I also like option 2 as I have a feeling that taking it slow and reading other books will help me get through. I am going to be away for a few days but should be back in order to start the book during the 1st week of September.

ETA: I have a Kindle version that is 899 pages, published by Reading Essentials (1996)

I picked up my book several years ago, yeah, probably 10 years ago already. My edition is hardback, Alfred A. Knopf, 1955. I purchased it at The Book Cliffs new and used books in Wabasha, MN. A very nice used book store. The translator of my book is H. T. Lowe-Porter. I will probably, also buy the audible version as I have been told it is very good. Looking forward to finally reading this one.

I got my copy from the library. It's an Everyman's Library edition, translated by John E. Woods.

I was interested to see that this book is not readily available to buy in the U.S., except for in used version or kindle versions. With really long books, I tend to do better with a physical book so I went with the library.

>5 japaul22: There is a translation by John E. Woods that should be available. I see that Politics & Prose has the Vintage paperback on it's shelves in two of their locations. ;) It's also available at Powell's, Strand bookstore, and bookshop.org.

>6 ELiz_M: thanks! When neither my local bookstore nor Amazon had it in stock, I jumped to conclusions.

Just bumping this up to see if anyone else is interested! Let's plan to discuss based on the slower schedule, option 2, posted in the top post. I've added target dates for reference. Please feel free to join in discussion no matter what your preferred reading pace is - it will all work out!

I think I'll start reading this tomorrow. I have no idea at what pace I'll actually end up reading - that always depends on the book for me.

I also am not sure when I will get started but got my book out and it is in my plans to start soon.

I have a copy of this book & want to join the group read but have no idea what pace will work for me - sorry! Sometimes I devour books and others take me forever to finish so it depends in part on how much I like the book (which I won't know until I start).

RL is unexpectedly busy for me right now so I won't be able to start for at least a week.

I read this many years ago and enjoyed it, so will start re-reading and see how it goes. I hope to see even more in it this time. I will read the original translation by H. T. Lowe-Porter. Apparently she and Mann collaborated on the translation.

>10 leslie.98: I agree, it is impossible for me to know how fast I'll read until I start! I always use reading schedules as a guide, but read at the pace that gives me the best enjoyment of the book. I'm looking at the pace posted as more of a guide for our discussion pace than each individual's reading pace.

>11 pamelad: We'll have to compare a few passages to see how the translations differ - I always think that's interesting.

I have started my read of The Magic Mountain this evening with the completion of Chapter 1. So far it's an easy read although I am not sure exactly where it's going.

The two-page forward, which I believe was written by Mann, is absolutely charming: "We shall tell it at length, in precise and thorough detail.... Unafraid of the odium of appearing too meticulous, we are much more inclined to the view that only thoroughness can be truly entertaining."

I've started the first few pages as well and was drawn in immediately.

So my big misconception about sanitariums, from when I started reading this era of books in high school, was that they were for the insane. I think something about the word resembling "insane" and also the fact that it seemed like people (men) were always putting women in these places confused me. I think I was well into my 30s before I realized they were for tuberculosis patients!

I'm a little nervous about being able to follow the philosophical discussions that I'm sure are coming. I don't have a thorough background in German philosophy. But, I'll just try to figure it out as I go!

When I was young there was a huge sanitarium not too far from where I lived, and not knowing much about tuberculosis, I always found the building rather creepy. Even when I got older and a girlfriend of mine worked there as a receptionist during the 1960s, I still found it a disturbing place to visit. I am pretty sure that most of these large sanitariums are gone now, but is this because tuberculosis is not very prevalent or is it because TB is treated differently now?

There was a tuberculosis sanitarium near my home when I attended school in Duluth, Minnesota and later when I moved south, there was another in that area. It was to isolate the person, provide them with fresh air. They would leave windows open even in winter. It is no longer treated that way. There are medicines to use but hospitals have to have special rooms of ventilation when treating active cases.

>16 DeltaQueen50: These days TB is treated with antibiotics. It's quite a long process, using a combination of antibiotics.

>15 japaul22: I read the whole book without realising it was an allegory, so this time I have a head start.

I've started and am reading slowly to try to take it all in.

>19 pamelad: Tell me more about the allegory idea. Is there something specific I should look for?

I did see that Mann suggested in an interview that this was a book that needed to be read twice to really get it.

>20 japaul22: I think the sanitarium represents the sick state of Europe in the years leading up to WWI.

So I realized last night, that I counted the pages wrong and reading Chapters 1-4 is actually quite a bit longer than I thought. It's actually 216 pages. This isn't a big deal because it was just a guide, but I wanted to acknowledge that error.

I'm part way through chapter 4 and I'm liking it. I have a few observations and questions. One that I keep thinking about is this treatment for tuberculosis. I think it's interesting that being at a high altitude was thought to be helpful. When I travel to high altitude it definitely makes me short of breath and makes my heart race. I wondered if Hans's symptoms are really altitude sickness? And how much does the altitude affect those with tuberculosis negatively instead of helping?

I'm having a little trouble keeping all of the characters straight, but they are starting to take on personality so they are easier to remember. I thought the scene with the Half-Lung Club was disturbingly amusing.

I'm also enjoying Hans's ideas about time - how we experience time in real life vs. how we track time by the clock.

I also am not a French speaker. Why is the woman called "tous-les-deux"? And the exchange about "Tous les dé, monseiur. Tous les dé vous savez". I know some of those words but don't understand the point of it. This is on page 128 in my edition.

>22 japaul22: I'm up to chapter 3, but on an ereader so no page numbers. 7% so probably not yet up to p128. Enjoying it again.

Anyway, tous les deux means "both of them", which the woman is wailing because her first son was already close to death from TB and she thought her second son was OK, but when he arrived at the sanitarium he was discovered to have the disease as well.

Tous les dé looks wrong, but I don't know enough French. Something to do with chance? Les dés are dice. Rabbitprincess and Chlorine speak French, so they might be able to help.

Maybe the air was thought to be cleaner at high altitudes. In London, for example, the air was filthy, so maybe it was in other European cities as well. Lots of coal-powered industry. I think that in other countries there were TB sanitaria in deserts.

>22 japaul22: >23 pamelad: Yeah, if it were about dice I would expect it to say tous les dés

I found the text of the book on archive.org and in that edition, anyway, it says "tous les de ", which looks like a typo or misrendering of "tous les deux". https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.2424/2015.2424.Thomas-Mann-The-Magi...

From what I read there, it looks like she's saying to Hans, "Both of them, you know", with the implication being "I have lost both of them".

Hope that helps!

Thank you Princess. I think there are big slabs of French to come, pages of philosophical reflections.

Just got to the tous les de bit and am wondering whether it represents the Mexican woman’s pronunciation of tous les deux. She doesn’t speak good French.

>22 japaul22: I am curiously bothered by the repeated mention of Hans' bloodshot eyes. Intrigued by the idea that he has altitude sickness.

>26 pamelad: Oh, that's possible about the mispronunciation. I did double check and my edition does have the accent over the e. Not looking forward to long passages of French - maybe google translate will help.

>27 ELiz_M: I traveled to Quito, Ecuador several years ago which is at very high altitude, and a lot of the symptoms described I remember feeling - shortness of breath, heart racing, hard to sleep. I got used to it after a few days though.

I am finding that I am trying analyze everything so much that I am not really absorbing the story. I see Hans as the middle ground between "up here" and "down below". He is at a crossroad between the stagnant European society and the safety or sanctuary of new methods and ideas. The patients are from just about every country in Europe so do they represent their countries, or is Han's relationship to them a symbol of Germany's relations to other countries in Europe? His symptoms of disease - nosebleeds, heart palpitations, rising temperture and reoccuring dizziness all sound like symptoms of altitude sickness but I think the author is trying to show that Han's has lost himself and his direction and is trying to find the balance between the stagnant society of Europe and the future that could be. I am in awe of the author and how his mind works, his irony and subtle humor help to keep the book very readable.

>26 pamelad: I like that theory!

Happy to weigh in on more French if it arises :)

>30 DeltaQueen50: I think the good Russian table and the bad Russian table represent the reds and the whites, but we don't know which is which!

And, are Hans' symptoms caused by being in the sanatorium, by altitude sickness, by hypochondria or by a desire to escape from the world, or was he already ill before he came and it really is TB?

>32 pamelad: Aha! That would certainly explain why there are two tables of Russians. I suspect that we may never know the truth behind Hans' symptoms - that they will be left up for the reader to explain to himself.

>30 DeltaQueen50: And I am the opposite! I'm enjoying the story and Hans's interactions and observations about the other people, but I'm not thinking very deeply into the larger allegory. I do appreciate everyone pointing them out, though. Gives me a little extra to think about.

>34 japaul22: I think I would get more enjoyment from the book if I simply read the story and left the puzzling for later. This is one of those books that one could read many times and get something different from it each time which speaks volumes about the creative genius of the author.

I just started Magic Mountain, which has me late to the group by about 200 pages. I am definitely feeling intimidated, as soon as I remembered the full context it turns out I am coming with. My only other Mann was Doctor Faustus way back in the day (I was maybe 15?) and I recall liking it and then getting sick of it and just wanting to be done so I could write the dang paper for class. I enjoyed writing the paper, but parts just dragged. Anyway, something about the 1940s binding in my edition of Magic Mountain is calling back that experience... But as I am *much* older and hopefully more worldly now, and I would expect this book is one I would like, and I have been planning for this group read... I am endeavoring to get over my mixed reactions and we will see how close I can catch up the group schedule!

Yikes, it's mid-September already and I still haven't found my copy. I'll follow you...

>36 pammab: >37 MissWatson: It doesn't seem like anyone is racing through. Feel free to keep your own pace and chime in whenever!

My kids who are 10 and 7 started virtual school last week, so between helping them and keeping up with work, my reading has taken a nose dive. I'm sure it will pick up again once we get in a better routine.

I am onto Chapter 3. My allegory reading so far is something like "Hans got bounced around families and structures and didn't really get a leg up into the future, and then just as he was going to start his life another authority figure said he looked sickly. So he joined his ill cousin at a sanatorium, and surprise, he got sick too."

I'm liking Judy's read in >30 DeltaQueen50: better, because mine seems... too obvious. The actual fiction part is drawing me in though. Lots of heavy foreshadowing about how long Hans will stay and a dark edge to the sanatorium...

I have been reading on and I am on Chapter 6 now. Apparently the author starting writing the book in 1912 and it was published in 1924 so I have been wondering when each section was written and whether he went back and changed any of the book to reflect what was happening during WW I as it seems as if he was strongly influenced by the war. I am trying not to "over-think" the book but let the narrative flow, but I can't help but be distracted by the amount of symbolism that the author uses.

I'm reading chapter 5. Here's a list of random things I've noticed up to now, that may or may not mean anything.

- the recurrence of the number 7, including Settembrini's name
- the contrast between Castorp's and Settembrini's grandfathers. Settembrini's worked for humanism and progress, while Castorp's stood for tradition and order.
- Castorp's once powerful family has declined, with his parents and grandfather dying of lung ailments and he himself being anaemic and lethargic.
- Europe stands for progress and Asia for passivity and stasis. Settembrini says Austria is Asian.
- Castorp's erotic attraction to men e.g. the boy at school (from whom he borrowed the pencil, and who reminds him of Clavdia Chauchat), his shirtless cousin
- Chauchat almost means hot cat in French
- phallic symbols e.g. the pencil, the thermometer (I studied 2 years of Eng. Lit and never noticed a phallic symbol. Now hyper-alert.)
- TB the physical expression of the corruption of love
- Settembrini dismisses the good and bad Russians as Parthians and Scythians. Google says these are ancient warring kingdoms in what is now Iran
- there are many, many mythological references
- the subjectiveness of time as >22 japaul22: pointed out. This is mirrored by the chapter length. They start off short and cover a short period of time, when everything is new to Hans, and get progressively longer, covering months and years at a time.
- the shonkiness of the sanitorium. The medical staff see only TB and treat only TB. Patients have died of other illnesses there, untreated. Also, the staff might be diagnosing TB where none exists. It's a business.

>40 DeltaQueen50: The first time I read this, many years ago, I didn't notice much of the symbolism, but enjoyed the book anyway. I'm noticing more now, but there's a lot I'm not, nor could I. Very erudite, Thomas Mann. I'm sure that you could read it many times and uncover more meaning every time.

Another phallic symbol - the cigar. Look out for the cigar exchange towards the middle of chap 5.

>41 pamelad: I read that Chauchat is also french slang for a woman's genitalia so even more erotic symbolism.

"Sometimes I think being ill and dying aren't serious at all, just a sort of loafing about and wasting time; life is only serious down below." (Joachim, chpt. 3) brought me to pause. I can't decide what I think of that observation.

Keeping my eye out for those motifs!

I've read up to The Dance of Death so I think I've caught up with you all.
This novel is written, set as a prewar novel (WWI) I think. It also has a theme of time. Time is often referenced as not being the same on the mountain as it is below. Another theme is death of course which was also a part of Death in Venice which I read awhile back.

I didn't see this mentioned above. Mann's wife was a sufferer of pulmonary TB and was treated in a sanitorium so he used her experience for the realism of the novel.

It does present an interesting look at the medical field even though perhaps that wasn't the intent. The idea that being "sick" can be a reward for those who lack ambition. Certainly Hans lacks ambition. He likes to lay around and think so life on the mountain works out well for him. I also note that there is some gain for the doctors to diagnose people as sick in order to maintain their sanitorium with occupants (that have income).

deleted by author, double message

Some quotes or lines that I noted.
pg4. Space, like time, engenders forgetfulness; but it does so by setting us bodily free from out surroundings and giving us back our primitive, unattached state. Yes, it can even, in the twinkling of an eye, make something like a vagabond of the pedant and Philistine. Time, we say, is Lethe; but change of air is a similar draught, and , if it works less thoroughly, does so more quickly.

pg. 128 "Symptoms of disease are nothing but a disguised manifestation of the power of love; and all disease is only love transformed".

I have finished the book, and at the back of it the author has written a short explaination on "The Making of The Magic Mountain", I found this very interesting and he does indeed refer to the time his wife spent in a sanitorium. He also states that the dinner Han's experienced on his first night as a visitor mirrored his own experience. He told of how he caught a chill from sitting out on the balcony and that the doctors told him he had a spot on his lungs and that he should now commit to a six month stay - he left and instead of taking the "cure" he wrote The Magic Mountain. He obviously felt that the doctor at the sanitorium was trying to lure him into staying in order to empty his pockets.

ETA: I have posted my thoughts on my thread. I tried to keep it spoiler free but didn't want to post it here until everyone is finished with the book.

Congrats on finishing!

I’m plugging away - somewhere in the middle of chapter 5, after Castorp has his x ray confirming his illness. I found it interesting that the very next mini chapter is entitled Freedom and that when he writes to his family to tell them he is staying, freedom is what he feels. Freedom from worldly pressure? Freedom from work? Freedom from world events? Freedom from life?

Lots to think about . . .

In a lighter note, I love the descriptions of how they wrap themselves in blankets when they are taking their rest cures. Sounds cozy and I’d like to master the technique myself!

>48 DeltaQueen50: Congatulations!

>49 japaul22: It's funny in an awful sort of way that the sanatorium inhabitants carry their X-rays around with them to show membership of the TB club. The X-rays crop up again, significantly, towards the end of the chapter, as do pencils!

I've just finished chapter 5, even the French section, so am patting myself on the back. In the H. T. Lowe-Porter translation, Settembrini's language is described in many places as "plastic", inverted commas included. I doubt that the word meant the same back in 1924 as it does now, so I'm a bit puzzled. What word(s) does Woods use?

The use of French is important, because it allows Castorp to say things that he couldn't in German. And, referring back to the Good and Bad Russian tables, it's the ability to talk French that makes Mme Chauchat one of the Good Russians. The Bad Russians are uncultured, speak only their own language, spill food on themselves, and don't wear collars.

I'm not sure of the significance of Castorp's visits to the dying. It does seem cruel and harsh to hide them away from the rest of the inmates and pretend they don't exist, so it's kind of to Castorp seek them out.

>50 pamelad: I'm not positive what words are used to describe Settembrini's language, but I haven't noticed the word plastic - it might be "pedantic" that my translation uses. I'm keeping an eye out now. I'm still in Chapter 5, but only about 50 pages to go.

I glanced ahead and I believe most of the french has been translated in my edition. It seems that the translator chose to use English but italicize to indicate that it's French in the original. I'm grateful for that as I only read a very little French and I'm lost enough without having to read in another language!!

>50 pamelad: >51 japaul22: In German, it is "plastisch" which is related to "Plastik" in the sense of a sculpture, something three-dimensional which can be grasped, hence easily imagined and understood.

I'm catching up with you and have reached chapter 4. The problem of translation is one that frequently pops up, there are so many words where I wonder if and how this would find its way into an English version. As in Hans' first encounter with the Swiss word for waitress, Saaltochter, which occurs frequently after this. The literal translation would be "hall daughter".

Finished!

>52 MissWatson: Thank you. I was thinking of flexible, but it didn't really fit. Easily imagined and understood makes more sense. Porter must have decided that the word was untranslatable, hence the " ".

I chose this translation because Porter and Mann consulted on it, and it was done only 3 years after the book was first published. In those days a translation was almost a re-write with the translator imposing her own writing style. It flows well, but perhaps the style is unlike the original. The hall daughter example passed right by me as I read. In fact, now that I've reached the end I have trouble remembering minor characters from the beginning.

I have another thread on 100 Books in 2020 Challenge, so I'll probably park my impending review there for now, so that everyone is safe from spoilers.

Some reflections on The Magic Mountain, up to Chapter 5.

Did Hans Castorp have TB?

He came from a family with weak lungs, which used to be a euphemism for TB sufferers, but it's 1907, 25 years since Robert Koch isolated the tubercle bacillus and proved beyond doubt that TB is an infectious, not an inherited, disease. Perhaps people still believed that a tendency to come down with TB was inherited. The disease was rife, with 25% of deaths each year due to it, in both Europe and America, so many people would have come in contact with it but recovered. Hans himself had an old recovered TB lesion. The practice of overdiagnosis was unconscionable, because if a patient did not have TB when he arrived at the sanatorium, he was likely to catch it during his stay, a good reason for Settembrini to urge Hans to leave.

Why did Hans choose to stay at the sanatorium?

Hans didn't want to work. He'd studied to become a ship engineer at the urging of his uncle, who pointed out that Hans' inheritance was not large enough to live on comfortably, so he would need to work to supplement his income. Perhaps Hans' uncle was assuming that eventually Hans would need to support a family. But when Hans was tempted to stay at the sanatorium, he calculated that his income would allow him to live there comfortably. So staying at the sanatorium allowed Hans to avoid work and responsibility. A man who has beer for breakfast isn't cut out to be a worker!

Hans romanticised TB, a disease of beautiful, creative young people who burned out like flames. He was pleased to be in their company, so was appalled by the coarse, ugly, unintelligent Catherine Stohr, with her malapropisms and her tactlessness. Ludicrously, he preened himself when the Hofrat praised him as a good patient.

Hans was fascinated by Mme Chauchat, and fancied himself in love. Settembrini tried to turn Hans away from her, and was disgusted by Hans' behaviour on Walpurgis Night. Hans broke his own code of behaviour, that of the pompous, upper-class young man of Hamburg, and tied himself further to the Sanatorium. Joachim too was disappointed in Hans, because Joachim was at the sanatorium to get well so that he could return to his life as a soldier in the flatlands, and he realised that Hans was not planning to return. Probably Hans did not realise that himself. At this stage he showed little self-awareness.

>54 pamelad: These are great!

I'm in Chapter 6, in The City of God and Evil Deliverance section. I'm getting pretty lost with the discussions between Settembrini and Castorp, but I'm just keeping on and hoping to get something out of it!

I am finding that some of the dialogue that becomes more philosophical and editorial causing the story to drag a bit.

I don't think Hans as TB, I think he is avoiding life below as he doesn't want to work and be accountable. It suits his desires to be sick so he stays on the mountain.

>54 pamelad: Excellent observations. I noticed how Han's calculated his income and decided he could live very comfortably at the Sanatorium as well. No responsibilities, people to wait upon him as well as companions to converse with, and a love interest, as an added bonus!

I've finally finished, and while I definitely got lost in some of the philosophical discussions, I loved the characters and study of time and removal from large society into the smaller society of the sanatorium.

I'd also love to talk about the ending.
Though I knew this was all leading up to WWI, I was sort of surprised that this book ended coming down to earth (literally off the mountaintop) and into a bloody, gruesome war. It was a rude awakening! And part of me wondered why Castorp actually chose to join it rather than just pretending he was still ill and staying on. Was it Naphta's violent death? Just time? Or did I miss something?

>58 japaul22: I wondered whether, regarding the philosophical discussions, the reader represents Hans, who calls Naphta and Settembrini windbags and lets a lot of the discussion wash over him. But when Hans is lost in the snowstorm, it's thinking of Settembrini that saves him. Naphta's philosophy would have had Hans embracing death and lying down in the snow, but he chooses to save himself.

Peeperkorn was another important influence on Hans. He ate and drank to excess, and with his forceful personality dominated everyone he came into contact with, even though he couldn't finish a sentence and made very little sense. Where Naphta and Settembrini seemed almost entirely cerebral, and disconnected from feeling, Peeperkorn represented sensuality and feeling. I found the conversations between Peeperkorn and Hans about Mme Chauchat more than a little creepy. It seemed as though Peeperkorn committed suicide because his disease (malaria?) made him impotent and he was stepping aside for Hans. Despite Peeperkorn and Hans, Mme Chauchat was a strong and intelligent woman who chose her own way.

I've finished today. I enjoyed the book. I am glad that I listened to the audio (I also have the book). There is much in this book and deserves another read.

>59 pamelad: Interesting point about the reader representing Hans and his reaction to the philosophical talk. I like that.

I also enjoyed Peeperkorn as a character, but, yes, very weird between him, Castorp, and Mme Chauchat.

>60 Kristelh: Congrats on finishing!

I find that I need long and quiet weekends for this book, and since I spent the last three away from home I'm way behind. Work is busy right now, too, so I'm putting this on hold for a while. I enjoy your comments!

>62 MissWatson: No rush! I'll keep this thread starred, so if anyone has thoughts to share or discuss please do!

Some thoughts on the ending.

We were warned that things were coming to an end at the sanatarium. First there was the boredom, the hobbies and the crazes. Then came the increasing belligerance, with the people taking offence at trivialities, attacking each other verbally, even fighting. There was the duel between Settembrini and Naphta, the suicide of Peeperkorn, the departure of Mme Chauchat. Society at the sanitarium was breaking down, mirroring what was happening in Europe. At the outbreak of war everyone left, departing for their own countries. Perhaps Hans' decision to fight for Germany was influenced by the memory of Joachim. He was brought up as a conservative, middle-class German, so perhaps those values and that patriotism were still part of him. Perhaps he agreed in the end with Settembrini, and chose to join the real world.

>64 pamelad: I also think the author was showing us that no matter how one plans to escape from reality, it eventually reaches out and grabs you.

>65 DeltaQueen50: That's a good point. It made me stop and think about our being so involved and interested, as readers, in Hans' personal progress. Suddenly he becomes one soldier amongst millions, where his individual qualities and thoughts don't matter and he's probably going to die. It's as though we've been cheated. And even though we've come to accept Settembrini's point of view, it looks as though Naphta's philosophy has prevailed.

>64 pamelad:, >65 DeltaQueen50: I enjoyed your thoughts

I like all of these insights about the ending. They all make sense.

>66 pamelad: and that's really true that after being so immersed in Hans Castorp's personal journey, it was jarring to end with him as one of the masses. I didn't realize that was part of what I was experiencing until you put it so plainly.

I have finished this today and admit freely that most of Settembrini's and Naphta's disputes went over my head. Mann's convoluted prose doesn't help, it's easy to get lost in sentences that wind over half a page, and he often invents or uses words whose meaning is deliberately confounding, I think. One of the key words turning up again and again is "sittlich" or "Sittlichkeit" which is very much a 19th century term, a principle of morality that died in the trenches.

>69 MissWatson: Congrats on finishing! I agree that so many of the discussions went over my head. But a couple of months after finishing, I do feel like it was a positive reading experience and I'm glad I read it, even if there was lots I didn't understand!

>70 japaul22: Yes, and I keep mulling some of those ideas in my head.