1Hellbent2
A few day ago I started a thread looking for recommendations for letterpress printers who takes commissions. The reason was that I had a specific book in mind, which I though could do well with a fine press treatment.
The book I have in mind is the “Vita Merlini” or “The Life of Merlin”:
This is a work by the Norman-Welsh author Geoffrey of Monmouth, composed in Latin around AD 1150. It retells incidents from the life of the Brythonic seer Merlin, and is based on traditional material about him. Merlin is described as a prophet in the text. There are a number of episodes in which he loses his mind and lives in the wilderness like a wild animal, like Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Daniel. It is also the first work to describe the Arthurian sorceress Morgan le Fay, as Morgen. Geoffrey had written of Merlin in his two previous works, the Prophetiae Merlini, purported to be a series of prophecies from the sage, and the Historia Regum Britanniae, which is the first work presenting a link between Merlin and King Arthur. The Vita Merlini presents an account of Merlin much more faithful to the Welsh traditions about Myrddin Wyllt, the archetype behind Geoffrey's composite figure of Merlin. Whereas the Historia had Merlin associating with Arthur, his father Uther Pendragon, and his uncle Ambrosius in the 5th century, the Vita's timeframe is during the late 6th century, and includes references to various figures from that period, including Gwenddoleu and Taliesin. Geoffrey attempts to synchronize the Vita with his earlier work by having Merlin mention he had been with Arthur long before.
My interest in this started after having listened to the “BBC: in our times” podcast, hosted by Melvyn Bragg: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9j2
Please have a listen. It's quite interesting.
I then found the latin text online and started reading a bit. Afterwards I went online looking for the book in fine press form. In vain I should add. I did some more research and found an English translation in prose format. After this the idea of putting it all together started forming.
Currently I see the book being composed by an introduction, an illustrated English translation in prose form, and lastly the original Latin in hexameter:
Introduction will be about 2 pages, the prose 60, and the Latin 25.
Book size: I'm thinking 8.25x12.75 inches (Similar to a few books I like from Albert Tallone Editore)
Pages: About 90 + Illustrations (depends of course on the book size and fonts)
Paper: ? (Handmade of course)
Font: Garamond (I currently think 11-12pt size will be it for the main text)
Binding: Probably hard cover cloth (and maybe a few in leather)
I have been in touch with a couple of world class printers, recommended to me by dlphcoracl, and gotten some estimates and recommendations.
But all of this is still very much in the planning stages. Number of copies to be printed, binding, illustrator etc.
In order to get an idea of how and if I should proceed I would like to ask this forum for some feedback. Do you think there is interest for such a book beyond a few copies. And what would be your criteria? (cost, binding, type of illustrations etc)
All suggestions are most welcome
The book I have in mind is the “Vita Merlini” or “The Life of Merlin”:
This is a work by the Norman-Welsh author Geoffrey of Monmouth, composed in Latin around AD 1150. It retells incidents from the life of the Brythonic seer Merlin, and is based on traditional material about him. Merlin is described as a prophet in the text. There are a number of episodes in which he loses his mind and lives in the wilderness like a wild animal, like Nebuchadnezzar in the Book of Daniel. It is also the first work to describe the Arthurian sorceress Morgan le Fay, as Morgen. Geoffrey had written of Merlin in his two previous works, the Prophetiae Merlini, purported to be a series of prophecies from the sage, and the Historia Regum Britanniae, which is the first work presenting a link between Merlin and King Arthur. The Vita Merlini presents an account of Merlin much more faithful to the Welsh traditions about Myrddin Wyllt, the archetype behind Geoffrey's composite figure of Merlin. Whereas the Historia had Merlin associating with Arthur, his father Uther Pendragon, and his uncle Ambrosius in the 5th century, the Vita's timeframe is during the late 6th century, and includes references to various figures from that period, including Gwenddoleu and Taliesin. Geoffrey attempts to synchronize the Vita with his earlier work by having Merlin mention he had been with Arthur long before.
My interest in this started after having listened to the “BBC: in our times” podcast, hosted by Melvyn Bragg: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9j2
Please have a listen. It's quite interesting.
I then found the latin text online and started reading a bit. Afterwards I went online looking for the book in fine press form. In vain I should add. I did some more research and found an English translation in prose format. After this the idea of putting it all together started forming.
Currently I see the book being composed by an introduction, an illustrated English translation in prose form, and lastly the original Latin in hexameter:
Introduction will be about 2 pages, the prose 60, and the Latin 25.
Book size: I'm thinking 8.25x12.75 inches (Similar to a few books I like from Albert Tallone Editore)
Pages: About 90 + Illustrations (depends of course on the book size and fonts)
Paper: ? (Handmade of course)
Font: Garamond (I currently think 11-12pt size will be it for the main text)
Binding: Probably hard cover cloth (and maybe a few in leather)
I have been in touch with a couple of world class printers, recommended to me by dlphcoracl, and gotten some estimates and recommendations.
But all of this is still very much in the planning stages. Number of copies to be printed, binding, illustrator etc.
In order to get an idea of how and if I should proceed I would like to ask this forum for some feedback. Do you think there is interest for such a book beyond a few copies. And what would be your criteria? (cost, binding, type of illustrations etc)
All suggestions are most welcome
2dlphcoracl
>1 Hellbent2:
This is certainly something I would be interested in purchasing in a private press edition, especially since it fills a distinct void. However - and this may sound blasphemous to someone who can read the original in Latin - I have no desire to see it in a bilingual edition. The Latin will be completely lost on me and I will certainly not glance at it since I have zero ability to read it with comprehension.
From a practical point of view, adding the original Latin will probably double the cost of this book because of the additional time involved to handset the text prior to printing letterpress. Stated a bit differently, the book becomes significantly more attractive if it is offered at a price point which is nearly one half of what a bilingual edition will cost to have it printed privately. Although this may "offend" your multi-lingual sensibilities, the practical considerations of cost and the size of the potential audience that will benefit from inclusion of the original Latin text must be strongly considered. Another consideration - the money saved by printing it as "English language only" can then be utilized into making this a finer private press edition, e.g., inclusion of illustrations, a finer and more costly handmade paper, etc.
This is certainly something I would be interested in purchasing in a private press edition, especially since it fills a distinct void. However - and this may sound blasphemous to someone who can read the original in Latin - I have no desire to see it in a bilingual edition. The Latin will be completely lost on me and I will certainly not glance at it since I have zero ability to read it with comprehension.
From a practical point of view, adding the original Latin will probably double the cost of this book because of the additional time involved to handset the text prior to printing letterpress. Stated a bit differently, the book becomes significantly more attractive if it is offered at a price point which is nearly one half of what a bilingual edition will cost to have it printed privately. Although this may "offend" your multi-lingual sensibilities, the practical considerations of cost and the size of the potential audience that will benefit from inclusion of the original Latin text must be strongly considered. Another consideration - the money saved by printing it as "English language only" can then be utilized into making this a finer private press edition, e.g., inclusion of illustrations, a finer and more costly handmade paper, etc.
3ultrarightist
>1 Hellbent2: You are planning to self-publish this book, correct? Are you looking for subscribers or patrons (a la Patreon) to pledge or commit toward its publication?
4Glacierman
>1 Hellbent2: I would have to agree with >2 dlphcoracl:. And when you get to the point where you can make your project come together, I would suggest putting it up on a crowd-funding site as >3 ultrarightist: suggested.
5Hellbent2
Thanks all for the feedback. It is much appreciated.
>2 dlphcoracl:
>4 Glacierman:
I see your point. And it is something I have anticipated. If the latin is included it will be more expensive. Not twice, but maybe 30% more. Latin is much more compact than English and fewer words are used. But still, like i said, your opinion is still valid. You would get more without the Latin.
>3 ultrarightist:
Right now I am basically just trying to figure out how much, if any, interest is out there before I do anything more. But yes, I also feel crowdfunding would be the way to go about this.
It would also be helpful if I could get an idea of how much you guys think people would be willing to spend.
Currently I am thinking good (not over the top) handmade paper, top notch letterpress, great illustrations, and a simple but good cloth hardcover. The illustration bit is still very much an uncertainty. I have been looking around and have some ideas, but have no clue about how much cost it will add on top of the printing part.
>2 dlphcoracl:
>4 Glacierman:
I see your point. And it is something I have anticipated. If the latin is included it will be more expensive. Not twice, but maybe 30% more. Latin is much more compact than English and fewer words are used. But still, like i said, your opinion is still valid. You would get more without the Latin.
>3 ultrarightist:
Right now I am basically just trying to figure out how much, if any, interest is out there before I do anything more. But yes, I also feel crowdfunding would be the way to go about this.
It would also be helpful if I could get an idea of how much you guys think people would be willing to spend.
Currently I am thinking good (not over the top) handmade paper, top notch letterpress, great illustrations, and a simple but good cloth hardcover. The illustration bit is still very much an uncertainty. I have been looking around and have some ideas, but have no clue about how much cost it will add on top of the printing part.
6dlphcoracl
>5 Hellbent2:
The illustrations for this particular work are less essential for me. If it were Aesop's Fables, the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, Gulliver's Travels, etc, the illustrations would be far more important. Additionally, the relatively short length of 'The Life of Merlin' also makes illustrations less essential as compared to a much longer work such as Parzival or Le Morte DArthur. 2 or 3 well placed, imaginative illustrations may be all you need.
Basically, "Less Is More". The work is unique in the private press literature and that, in itself, will make it attractive for book collectors. A fine handmade paper, expert letterpress printing and an attractive price point, which you can achieve by limiting the number of illustrations and keeping the text as English language only, will make this edition very appealing.
The illustrations for this particular work are less essential for me. If it were Aesop's Fables, the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, Gulliver's Travels, etc, the illustrations would be far more important. Additionally, the relatively short length of 'The Life of Merlin' also makes illustrations less essential as compared to a much longer work such as Parzival or Le Morte DArthur. 2 or 3 well placed, imaginative illustrations may be all you need.
Basically, "Less Is More". The work is unique in the private press literature and that, in itself, will make it attractive for book collectors. A fine handmade paper, expert letterpress printing and an attractive price point, which you can achieve by limiting the number of illustrations and keeping the text as English language only, will make this edition very appealing.
7ultrarightist
I agree with >6 dlphcoracl:. I would add that I think traditional woodcuts are most appropriate for illustrating this book, or medieval decorations (e.g. border decorations) in the vein of some of Fritz Kriedel's work.
I am interested and would be willing spend some hundreds of dollars if the production values were sufficiently high. I would prefer illustrations and the latin text if they did not push the cost too high. For covers, consider a linen cover with a cowhide label on the spine (look at the binding of the AP Paradise Lost for reference - the style, not necessarily the color scheme).
I am interested and would be willing spend some hundreds of dollars if the production values were sufficiently high. I would prefer illustrations and the latin text if they did not push the cost too high. For covers, consider a linen cover with a cowhide label on the spine (look at the binding of the AP Paradise Lost for reference - the style, not necessarily the color scheme).
8Hellbent2
>6 dlphcoracl:
Yes. I also feel a more minimalistic style will be fitting. I'm thinking black and white sketches, maybe charcoal. And, well I hear you about omitting the original poem, but it's kind of important to me. Not just because it is in Latin, but because it's among the best Latin written since the the days of Vergil. Very rarely if ever seen during the middle ages.
Let's see where we land on this. Two editions might be possible. One more expensive which will bear the cost of being bilingual, and one cheaper solely in English. Still a long way to go.
Yes. I also feel a more minimalistic style will be fitting. I'm thinking black and white sketches, maybe charcoal. And, well I hear you about omitting the original poem, but it's kind of important to me. Not just because it is in Latin, but because it's among the best Latin written since the the days of Vergil. Very rarely if ever seen during the middle ages.
Let's see where we land on this. Two editions might be possible. One more expensive which will bear the cost of being bilingual, and one cheaper solely in English. Still a long way to go.
9Hellbent2
>7 ultrarightist:
That is certainly one way to do it. A medieval look for a medieval poem sure fits. However, currently I'am leaning more in the direction of focusing on great typography and readability. A simpler look. The medieval style often feels distracting to me, however beautiful it is. I also believe it will add quite a bit of cost, but of this I admit to not being sure.
The AP Paradise Lost binding does indeed look great. And I suppose not too expensive. Thanks for the tip!
That is certainly one way to do it. A medieval look for a medieval poem sure fits. However, currently I'am leaning more in the direction of focusing on great typography and readability. A simpler look. The medieval style often feels distracting to me, however beautiful it is. I also believe it will add quite a bit of cost, but of this I admit to not being sure.
The AP Paradise Lost binding does indeed look great. And I suppose not too expensive. Thanks for the tip!
10ultrarightist
>8 Hellbent2: I agree wrt the Latin. You might want to contact some university libraries that have sizable collections of medieval history, philosophy, and/or literature. They may be interested in acquiring a medieval text that has never previously been graced with the fine press treatment.
11ultrarightist
>9 Hellbent2: Good points, and I understand. You may want to consider border decorations. It could be as simple as one for the top and one for the bottom of the page - one set of two printed from the block or plate.
12dlphcoracl
>8 Hellbent2:
If you DO make this a bilingual edition, I would strongly favor keeping the languages entirely separate rather than placing one language on the verso page and the second language on the recto page. This will enable those readers not interested in the Latin to avoid it easily and entirely, yet satisfy those readers who can read and appreciate the Latin.
One additional thought regarding the binding. In addition to considering a full cloth binding, a one-quarter or one-half cloth spine with patterned paper over the boards is often quite attractive. The best examples of this binding style are the standard editions of the Whittington Press and the Nomad Letterpress (see link). A full cloth binding is often rather dull and bland by comparison.
https://www.nomadletterpress.com/shop/2020-vision
If you DO make this a bilingual edition, I would strongly favor keeping the languages entirely separate rather than placing one language on the verso page and the second language on the recto page. This will enable those readers not interested in the Latin to avoid it easily and entirely, yet satisfy those readers who can read and appreciate the Latin.
One additional thought regarding the binding. In addition to considering a full cloth binding, a one-quarter or one-half cloth spine with patterned paper over the boards is often quite attractive. The best examples of this binding style are the standard editions of the Whittington Press and the Nomad Letterpress (see link). A full cloth binding is often rather dull and bland by comparison.
https://www.nomadletterpress.com/shop/2020-vision
13c_schelle
I'm interested in the book, but it really depends on the price for me.The Latin sounds interesting, but I haven't read any in the last ten years. I'm not sure I would be able to understand it. I also think that 90+ illustrations are bit much considering that the book is only about that many pages. They could be distracting from the text itself. Like >6 dlphcoracl: I think a handful of illustrations would be enough.
14Hellbent2
>12 dlphcoracl:
Yes the two would be entirely separate. First introduction in english, then the title page for the english, then the english prose about 60 pages(this part would be the illustrated part as well.), then the title page for the latin followed by the poem (about 22 pages)
Thanks also for the binding recommendation. It does look more interesting. Is it about as durable as a full cloth?
>13 c_schelle:
Thanks for the feedback. I'm afraid I was a bit unclear. I did not mean 90+ illustrations. I meant 90 pages of text + illustrations. And yes a few illustrations will be enough.
Yes the two would be entirely separate. First introduction in english, then the title page for the english, then the english prose about 60 pages(this part would be the illustrated part as well.), then the title page for the latin followed by the poem (about 22 pages)
Thanks also for the binding recommendation. It does look more interesting. Is it about as durable as a full cloth?
>13 c_schelle:
Thanks for the feedback. I'm afraid I was a bit unclear. I did not mean 90+ illustrations. I meant 90 pages of text + illustrations. And yes a few illustrations will be enough.
15kdweber
Not quite sure why the Latin would add so much to the cost if it was typeset on computer and printed from polymer plates.
16ultrarightist
>15 kdweber: Fair point. I'm assuming that is how the Folio Society was able to produce such an affordable letterpress edition of Sapho's Fragments.
17Sorion
I would definitely agree with what has been said about the Latin. I would also offer the suggestion of following the path of Tallone Editore and focusing on top notch printing and leaving out the superlatives such as illustrations. Just adding a few extra touches to make it special. Especially in a shorter work I care much more about the press work then I do about whether it has illustrations or not. Parzival in the eye-candy thread just below this one is also an excellent example. A magnificent work that stands on it's press work alone needing no illustration to help it reach it's heights. Though of course they did hand draw the initials in that volume.
18kermaier
>12 dlphcoracl:
Maybe quarter or half cloth over marbled paper boards, like the Officina Athelstane’s “A Modest Proposal” or The Folio Press fine editions from the 1980s. In fact, the Folio Press design of “Anglo Saxon Elegies” might be a good model for “Merlin”, in that it’s short, bi-lingual, has chapter-heading decorations, rather than illustrations, per se, and has a simple but elegant binding.
Maybe quarter or half cloth over marbled paper boards, like the Officina Athelstane’s “A Modest Proposal” or The Folio Press fine editions from the 1980s. In fact, the Folio Press design of “Anglo Saxon Elegies” might be a good model for “Merlin”, in that it’s short, bi-lingual, has chapter-heading decorations, rather than illustrations, per se, and has a simple but elegant binding.
19ultrarightist
A couple of other points of consideration:
If you do intend to solicit the interest of academic institutions, then the inclusion of the Latin text is essential.
Since you not striving to produce a top-tier private press edition, consider using mould-made paper rather than handmade paper to reduce cost. The Zerkall mould-made paper that the Folio Society used for its Letterpress Shakespeare editions is very nice, for example.
If you do intend to solicit the interest of academic institutions, then the inclusion of the Latin text is essential.
Since you not striving to produce a top-tier private press edition, consider using mould-made paper rather than handmade paper to reduce cost. The Zerkall mould-made paper that the Folio Society used for its Letterpress Shakespeare editions is very nice, for example.
20Hellbent2
>15 kdweber:
>16 ultrarightist:
This is something I did not know about. This could be something to look into. Thanks.
>17 Sorion:
As far as typography and style goes, Alberto Tallone Editore is actually my biggest inspiration. And I will try my very best to accomplish the same type of simplicity and elegance. I am however looking into how much adding one or a few illustrations will impact the cost. Then I can make an estimate on the cost for the different alternatives.
Currently looking at different wood block printing artists. Does anyone here have a favorite?
>19 ultrarightist:
Thank you. I hope to get the introduction written by a scholar, and contacting a few academic institutions is on my to do list. Great tip about the paper! I will ask for cost estimates based on different papers like Arches, Magnani, and will add Zerkall to the list.
>16 ultrarightist:
This is something I did not know about. This could be something to look into. Thanks.
>17 Sorion:
As far as typography and style goes, Alberto Tallone Editore is actually my biggest inspiration. And I will try my very best to accomplish the same type of simplicity and elegance. I am however looking into how much adding one or a few illustrations will impact the cost. Then I can make an estimate on the cost for the different alternatives.
Currently looking at different wood block printing artists. Does anyone here have a favorite?
>19 ultrarightist:
Thank you. I hope to get the introduction written by a scholar, and contacting a few academic institutions is on my to do list. Great tip about the paper! I will ask for cost estimates based on different papers like Arches, Magnani, and will add Zerkall to the list.
21edgeworn
>20 Hellbent2: I could also be interested in this book. For me there are two things which would make the book more appealing: first would be a small number of illustrations (with woodcut, wood engraving or possibly linocut being personal favourites for this sort of content). Secondly the latin and english texts on facing pages. I have always enjoyed this style of presentation because it makes it easy to compare the two languages line by line and this always leads to pleasant discoveries. Flipping back and forth between two sections of the book would make this more difficult. However I appear to be in a minority on one about this!
You ask about possible artists. The list is clearly very long, and it is very much a matter of your personal preference. The web site of the Society of Wood Engravers (https://www.woodengravers.co.uk ) could be one starting point.
A few suggestions from me for British artists whose work I like (apologies, I couldn't pick one favourite):
Harry Brockway (https://harrybrockway.com )
Simon Brett (http://www.simonbrett-woodengraver.co.uk )
the Welsh artist John Abell (especially his work with linocuts - see for example his illustrations for the Old Stile Press Book of Job)
Angela Lemaire (http://www.angelalemaire.co.uk )
Sue Scullard (http://www.suescullard.co.uk )
Good luck!
You ask about possible artists. The list is clearly very long, and it is very much a matter of your personal preference. The web site of the Society of Wood Engravers (https://www.woodengravers.co.uk ) could be one starting point.
A few suggestions from me for British artists whose work I like (apologies, I couldn't pick one favourite):
Good luck!
22Hellbent2
>21 edgeworn:
Thanks a lot for your feedback. The links to the artists are exactly what i needed.
Having the English and Latin on facing pages does not work well I am afraid. I briefly tried out that layout, but since the English is in prose form and the Latin is in hexameter it gets kind of messy. And it might even be that some parts of the Latin poem is reflected in the English part out of order and even ends up on the next page. And that is just too confusing.
Thanks a lot for your feedback. The links to the artists are exactly what i needed.
Having the English and Latin on facing pages does not work well I am afraid. I briefly tried out that layout, but since the English is in prose form and the Latin is in hexameter it gets kind of messy. And it might even be that some parts of the Latin poem is reflected in the English part out of order and even ends up on the next page. And that is just too confusing.
23wcarter
>1 Hellbent2:
Put me on your mailing list for a copy. I would be very interested, and would like to see the Latin included.
Having some copies bound in quarter or half leather would also cater for those who like a more up-market version.
Put me on your mailing list for a copy. I would be very interested, and would like to see the Latin included.
Having some copies bound in quarter or half leather would also cater for those who like a more up-market version.
24Dr.Fiddy
>1 Hellbent2:
I would also be interested in this title 👍
I would also be interested in this title 👍
25dlphcoracl
>1 Hellbent2:
>21 edgeworn:
Another wood-engraving whose work I highly recommend is Abigail Rorer. She has her own website and is proprietor of her own private press, The Lone Oak Press. However, she also does commission work and has done several books for the Folio Society. Additionally, she was one of the wood-engraving artist recognized by Jan and Crispin Elsted and was one of the early featured artists in their outstanding Endgrain Editions series. Links below.
http://www.theloneoakpress.com
http://www.barbarianpress.com/archives/endgrain2.html
>21 edgeworn:
Another wood-engraving whose work I highly recommend is Abigail Rorer. She has her own website and is proprietor of her own private press, The Lone Oak Press. However, she also does commission work and has done several books for the Folio Society. Additionally, she was one of the wood-engraving artist recognized by Jan and Crispin Elsted and was one of the early featured artists in their outstanding Endgrain Editions series. Links below.
http://www.theloneoakpress.com
http://www.barbarianpress.com/archives/endgrain2.html
26SebRinelli
Exciting project! Perhaps this could be a blueprint for future community driven fine press projects!
It‘s a bit difficult to suggest a woodengraver without knowing the text. If it is a bit more playful, how about approaching Dmitry Sayenko?
http://nikodimpress.blogspot.com/
Harry Brockway would be also high on my list.
If it’s more about illustrating the landscape I would strongly suggest Richard Wagener.
http://richardwagener.com/
Again, without knowing the text, what about head and tail pieces to open and close chapters?
I appreciate the austere beauty of Alberto Tallone’s work, but I could imagine that another font for titling (And/or text) would have a great effect. If you go for photopolymer printing (which is in my opinion no inferior to traditional letterpress), you could go for Vale Kings Fount which works beautifully for mediaeval works. http://www.designhistory.org/Arts_Crafts_pages/images_artCrafts/Vale_Large.jpg
I wouldn’t care much about the presence of a Latin text. Maybe it’s worthwhile to split these across two volumes. Those who cannot live without the Latin text would have to take the additional costs for a second binding though. If you consider this option you could do an English version with illustrations and a different font than Garamond and use Garamond for the Latin version. I feel that Latin and Garamond Are a perfect match.
Just my thoughts...
Consider me in the interested camp.
It‘s a bit difficult to suggest a woodengraver without knowing the text. If it is a bit more playful, how about approaching Dmitry Sayenko?
http://nikodimpress.blogspot.com/
Harry Brockway would be also high on my list.
If it’s more about illustrating the landscape I would strongly suggest Richard Wagener.
http://richardwagener.com/
Again, without knowing the text, what about head and tail pieces to open and close chapters?
I appreciate the austere beauty of Alberto Tallone’s work, but I could imagine that another font for titling (And/or text) would have a great effect. If you go for photopolymer printing (which is in my opinion no inferior to traditional letterpress), you could go for Vale Kings Fount which works beautifully for mediaeval works. http://www.designhistory.org/Arts_Crafts_pages/images_artCrafts/Vale_Large.jpg
I wouldn’t care much about the presence of a Latin text. Maybe it’s worthwhile to split these across two volumes. Those who cannot live without the Latin text would have to take the additional costs for a second binding though. If you consider this option you could do an English version with illustrations and a different font than Garamond and use Garamond for the Latin version. I feel that Latin and Garamond Are a perfect match.
Just my thoughts...
Consider me in the interested camp.
27dlphcoracl
>26 SebRinelli:
That font (Vale Kings Fount) is beautiful. Which book did you take the photograph from?
That font (Vale Kings Fount) is beautiful. Which book did you take the photograph from?
28SebRinelli
>27 dlphcoracl:
It’s one of three types designed by Charles Ricketts for his Vale Press. I think in English they are called King’s Font, Avon Font, and Vale Font.
The sample photograph is taken from Danae, Vale Press, 1903. I don’t own the book myself as I don’t have a great interest in the text. However, I agree with you, the type is beautiful (as are the illustrations of that book).
It’s one of three types designed by Charles Ricketts for his Vale Press. I think in English they are called King’s Font, Avon Font, and Vale Font.
The sample photograph is taken from Danae, Vale Press, 1903. I don’t own the book myself as I don’t have a great interest in the text. However, I agree with you, the type is beautiful (as are the illustrations of that book).
29ultrarightist
>25 dlphcoracl: I was not previously aware of Lone Oak Press. I am now somewhat poorer because of your post. I couldn't resist the book about the church near Whittington Press, with its lovely engravings by the proprietor of the press and another artist.
30booksforreading
>1 Hellbent2:
I would be interested in this book. My preference would be to have both Latin and English versions in it.
Thank you so much for considering it! I hope that it comes to fruition.
I would be interested in this book. My preference would be to have both Latin and English versions in it.
Thank you so much for considering it! I hope that it comes to fruition.
31dlphcoracl
>29 ultrarightist:
My bad. :-)
Incidentally, the other wood engraver (Miriam Macgregor) has worked extensively with John Randle and his Whittington Press. Her illustrations can be found in a number of their fine editions.
My bad. :-)
Incidentally, the other wood engraver (Miriam Macgregor) has worked extensively with John Randle and his Whittington Press. Her illustrations can be found in a number of their fine editions.
32dpbbooks
Rick Allen at the Kenspeckle Letter Press in Duluth is a fantastic wood engraver and would match well with this type of book. He also has a letterpress operation. He has done printing and illustration work for me in the past to excellent effect. https://kenspeckleletterpress.com/
33Glacierman
Consider me interested insofar as the price is within the realm of my exchequer. My chancellor of same will indubitably elect to veto my purchase if 'tis not!
34Hellbent2
I would like thank all who have contributed with links and opinions regarding the illustration part. To be honest I have not had time to look through all. But I have send enquires to a few. And one of them, has already replied back and expressed great interest and enthusiasm.
I have also contacted a well known scholar regarding the introduction/foreword. I think a background to the text will be both interesting and useful.
Still on the todo list is contacting a few academic institutions, which I will do after I have gotten a positive reply from the aforementioned scholar.
>26 SebRinelli:
I think more community driven projects would be great. We should form the "Dispersed Bibliophile Society". There is a lot we could do together.
If this project is successful I have another idea in line with this one. And the medieval look regarding font, rich decorations and illustrations would be great for that book.
And, I think it's great that so many have expressed their interest in this book. It bodes well!
I have also contacted a well known scholar regarding the introduction/foreword. I think a background to the text will be both interesting and useful.
Still on the todo list is contacting a few academic institutions, which I will do after I have gotten a positive reply from the aforementioned scholar.
>26 SebRinelli:
I think more community driven projects would be great. We should form the "Dispersed Bibliophile Society". There is a lot we could do together.
If this project is successful I have another idea in line with this one. And the medieval look regarding font, rich decorations and illustrations would be great for that book.
And, I think it's great that so many have expressed their interest in this book. It bodes well!
36const-char-star
>1 Hellbent2: I too would be very interested in this title.
37filox
Count me in as interested. And FWIW, I could definitely live without the addition of Latin text if this would reduce the price.
39Hellbent2
I bring some really great news which I hope will please you guys. John Abell will do the illustrations. There will be a number of them. As in more than a couple.
There are several reasons why I went with John. I love his work in 'The book of Job' by 'The Old Stile Press'. It's simply fantastic. And I think he is among the best when it comes to transmitting emotion through his art. Something I feel is more important than anything else.
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-book-of-job/
There are several reasons why I went with John. I love his work in 'The book of Job' by 'The Old Stile Press'. It's simply fantastic. And I think he is among the best when it comes to transmitting emotion through his art. Something I feel is more important than anything else.
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-book-of-job/
40dlphcoracl
>39 Hellbent2:
This is outstanding news. His work for the Old Stile Press is not duplicated by anyone else I have seen. This will certainly make this a distinctive and unique edition.
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-diary-of-a-dead-officer/
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-book-of-job/
This is outstanding news. His work for the Old Stile Press is not duplicated by anyone else I have seen. This will certainly make this a distinctive and unique edition.
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-diary-of-a-dead-officer/
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-book-of-job/
41Hellbent2
>40 dlphcoracl:
Indeed! I feel dangerously optimistic.
And, yes 'The Diary of a Dead Officer' is excellent as well!
Indeed! I feel dangerously optimistic.
And, yes 'The Diary of a Dead Officer' is excellent as well!
42ultrarightist
>39 Hellbent2: That's great news! Congratulations. It seems that you have moved beyond the stage of pure concept to realizing the project. I wish you good fortune in this venture. I am more interested than ever.
43gmacaree
>39 Hellbent2: Even more interested now
44edgeworn
>39 Hellbent2: Great choice of artist, and nice to have that Welsh connection. Very exciting!
45Glacierman
>1 Hellbent2: I might suggest as another binding option to make a few copies available in unbound sheets for those who wish to have them custom bound. Many presses have done this and it is an attractive option for me. It will also reduce the price!
46astropi
Very exciting. Can you share any details? Overall cost of the project? Cost per book? Will you be doing preorders? etc.
47Hellbent2
>42 ultrarightist:
>43 gmacaree:
>44 edgeworn:
Thank you guys. And yes, the Welsh connection is great :)
>45 Glacierman:
I will consider the unbound option as well. It's now on my list.
>46 astropi:
Thank you. I would like to wait until I have a fairly exact estimate of the cost for the printing and a few binding and paper options, before sharing. What I have now is promising, but it's just a rough estimate.
When all the details are specified and if it still looks promising I will consider how to finance this. I know for a fact that I will not take all the cost myself and then hope to sell all the copies. I'm also not really interested in managing the distribution.
When, or if, the time comes I will most likely ask for ideas and help from you guys about how to best do all that.
>43 gmacaree:
>44 edgeworn:
Thank you guys. And yes, the Welsh connection is great :)
>45 Glacierman:
I will consider the unbound option as well. It's now on my list.
>46 astropi:
Thank you. I would like to wait until I have a fairly exact estimate of the cost for the printing and a few binding and paper options, before sharing. What I have now is promising, but it's just a rough estimate.
When all the details are specified and if it still looks promising I will consider how to finance this. I know for a fact that I will not take all the cost myself and then hope to sell all the copies. I'm also not really interested in managing the distribution.
When, or if, the time comes I will most likely ask for ideas and help from you guys about how to best do all that.
48vadim_ca
>25 dlphcoracl:
>29 ultrarightist:
Although I was aware of The Loan Oak Press, I only have one or two of their books. After reading your posts and taking another look at "St. Bartholomew’s, Whittington: A Cotswold Church", I couldn't resist either! I am holding you accountable... thank you!
>39 Hellbent2:
I am not familiar with the artist, but his illustrations for The Old Stile Press look great. I am much more interested now. Good luck with the project!
>29 ultrarightist:
Although I was aware of The Loan Oak Press, I only have one or two of their books. After reading your posts and taking another look at "St. Bartholomew’s, Whittington: A Cotswold Church", I couldn't resist either! I am holding you accountable... thank you!
>39 Hellbent2:
I am not familiar with the artist, but his illustrations for The Old Stile Press look great. I am much more interested now. Good luck with the project!
49Hellbent2
I have learned that linoleum prints will look best on hard paper.
How do you guys feel about having the whole book printed on hard paper vs having soft thicker paper for the text and inserts for the prints?
How do you guys feel about having the whole book printed on hard paper vs having soft thicker paper for the text and inserts for the prints?
50ultrarightist
>49 Hellbent2: What do you mean by inserts?
51dlphcoracl
>49 Hellbent2:
Bad idea.
Having the entire book printed on a hard, smooth paper gives it the look and feel of a cheap, glossy photo-magazine and completely defeats the purpose of having this printed with top-notch letterpress technique. Printing the linoleum prints on a different paper and inserting them into a text with a fine, handmade paper is far preferable. It this is not possible from a cost-effective or financial reason, it is preferable to do the opposite - print the linoleum prints on the same paper as the text paper. Alternatively, abandoning linoleum cuts and using a different medium for illustrations, e.g., woodcuts, wood engravings, detailed drawings or sketches, is also preferable.
Bad idea.
Having the entire book printed on a hard, smooth paper gives it the look and feel of a cheap, glossy photo-magazine and completely defeats the purpose of having this printed with top-notch letterpress technique. Printing the linoleum prints on a different paper and inserting them into a text with a fine, handmade paper is far preferable. It this is not possible from a cost-effective or financial reason, it is preferable to do the opposite - print the linoleum prints on the same paper as the text paper. Alternatively, abandoning linoleum cuts and using a different medium for illustrations, e.g., woodcuts, wood engravings, detailed drawings or sketches, is also preferable.
52gmacaree
As usual, I agree with >51 dlphcoracl:. Tip them in, I think
53edgeworn
>49 Hellbent2: Does it require 'hard' paper, or simply a smooth-textured paper? I note that the paper used for the Old Stile Press Book of Job with John Abell's linocuts was Canaletto Velino Bianco 210 gsm, which I think is a good quality paper with a smooth, rather than textured, surface.
54astropi
I agree with dlphcoracl, handmade is definitely the ideal way to go. Even then, you have to decide what type of handmade paper? I personally like cotton rag. It's nice and clean, sturdy, beautiful, and ideal for letterpress.
55Hellbent2
Thanks all for the honest feedback. And yes, I'm with you.
The paper suggested by the printer is machine made and hard, but it's uncoated and I think not glossy.
https://www.arcticpaper.com/en/Home/Munken/Products/Munken-Design-range/Munken-P...
I'm sure that it is a very nice paper, but agree that it does not exactly breathe fine press.
My initial impression was that the price people would be willing to pay was around $150. And the printer is trying to keep the price down to something like that. This was just his initial recommendation. And I doubt that using handmade cotton paper will see that price being realized.
You can definitely see the difference regarding the prints between the "Diary of a Dead Soldier" which was printed on a more textured paper, and "The book of job" where the surface is more smooth:
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-diary-of-a-dead-officer/
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-book-of-job/
I will pursue two different tactics: One is that I will ask John if he could use something different than linoleum for the prints. The other is to ask the printer for an estimate for a nice thick soft paper and have the prints as inserts.
Thanks again. And please,if you have some favorite papers let me know.
The paper suggested by the printer is machine made and hard, but it's uncoated and I think not glossy.
https://www.arcticpaper.com/en/Home/Munken/Products/Munken-Design-range/Munken-P...
I'm sure that it is a very nice paper, but agree that it does not exactly breathe fine press.
My initial impression was that the price people would be willing to pay was around $150. And the printer is trying to keep the price down to something like that. This was just his initial recommendation. And I doubt that using handmade cotton paper will see that price being realized.
You can definitely see the difference regarding the prints between the "Diary of a Dead Soldier" which was printed on a more textured paper, and "The book of job" where the surface is more smooth:
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-diary-of-a-dead-officer/
https://www.oldstilepress.com/osp_book/the-book-of-job/
I will pursue two different tactics: One is that I will ask John if he could use something different than linoleum for the prints. The other is to ask the printer for an estimate for a nice thick soft paper and have the prints as inserts.
Thanks again. And please,if you have some favorite papers let me know.
56Glacierman
>55 Hellbent2: I might add that one need not use handmade paper. A good mould-made paper would work just as well. If you are not clear on the difference, click here for an explanation, courtesy of St. Cuthberts Mill. You might want to check into some of Zerkall's mould-made papers as their papers are used for printing as well as art. For example, their Niedeggan paper is good for letterpress printing and linocut: https://legionpaper.com/nideggen/
Looking forward to the final results.
Looking forward to the final results.
57ultrarightist
What is the difference between inserted and tipped-in? Does inserted just mean that the illustrations are printed on a different paper than the text and bound with the signatures and text block?
58ultrarightist
I agree 100% with >51 dlphcoracl:. A hard paper would make it very unattractive for me, and would probably dissuade me from purchasing.
On another note, I'm willing to pay more than $150, depending on what we get. If we get handmade or mould-made paper (and I concur with >56 Glacierman: about mould-made paper) and at least several illustrations, then I am willing to pay more.
On another note, I'm willing to pay more than $150, depending on what we get. If we get handmade or mould-made paper (and I concur with >56 Glacierman: about mould-made paper) and at least several illustrations, then I am willing to pay more.
59ultrarightist
>54 astropi: Agreed. Cotton rag or linen rag.
60dlphcoracl
>55 Hellbent2:
I think the $150 price point is a bit too modest for what you are aiming for, i.e., handmade paper, letterpress printing and original commissioned illustrations. Please tell me how large you want this book to be (sample book sizes listed below) and how many pages you anticipate for the book size of your choice. With that information I can then make comparisons to several outstanding private press editions, e.g., Barbarian Press, Hand and Eye Letterpress, Folio Society Letterpress series of WW I poetry, etc., and tell you what their prices are for books of comparable quality. My guess is that a price in the range of $250 to $300 is appropriate and would still be acceptable to most collectors on the Fine Press Forum for a book similar to those private presses mentioned above.
Traditional book sizes: width x height
Large quarto: approximately 10.5" (26.7 cm) x 13" (33 cm)
Quarto (4to): 9 1/2" (24.2 cm) x 12" (30.5 cm)
Octavo (8vo): 6" (15.3 cm) x 9" (22.8 cm)
12 mo: 5" (12.7 cm) x 7 1/8" (18.7 cm)
I think the $150 price point is a bit too modest for what you are aiming for, i.e., handmade paper, letterpress printing and original commissioned illustrations. Please tell me how large you want this book to be (sample book sizes listed below) and how many pages you anticipate for the book size of your choice. With that information I can then make comparisons to several outstanding private press editions, e.g., Barbarian Press, Hand and Eye Letterpress, Folio Society Letterpress series of WW I poetry, etc., and tell you what their prices are for books of comparable quality. My guess is that a price in the range of $250 to $300 is appropriate and would still be acceptable to most collectors on the Fine Press Forum for a book similar to those private presses mentioned above.
Traditional book sizes: width x height
Large quarto: approximately 10.5" (26.7 cm) x 13" (33 cm)
Quarto (4to): 9 1/2" (24.2 cm) x 12" (30.5 cm)
Octavo (8vo): 6" (15.3 cm) x 9" (22.8 cm)
12 mo: 5" (12.7 cm) x 7 1/8" (18.7 cm)
61SebRinelli
>55 Hellbent2:
My favourite is paper from the Cartiere Enrico Magnani. A wonderful tactile and visual experience, superior to the highly esteemed Richard de Bas paper, in my opinion. No hard paper, please!
I concur with >60 dlphcoracl:. The price will be more likely around $300.
In terms of size I prefer quarto; not too big to handle, with enough space to let text and illustrations breathe.
My favourite is paper from the Cartiere Enrico Magnani. A wonderful tactile and visual experience, superior to the highly esteemed Richard de Bas paper, in my opinion. No hard paper, please!
I concur with >60 dlphcoracl:. The price will be more likely around $300.
In terms of size I prefer quarto; not too big to handle, with enough space to let text and illustrations breathe.
62kdweber
>55 Hellbent2: I also agree, $250-$300 is the right price point.
63dlphcoracl
>61 SebRinelli:
"My favourite is paper from the Cartiere Enrico Magnani".
You have exquisite taste. Incidentally, this paper was also favored by Sidney Shiff in his late-era (1982-2010) Limited Editions Club books.
"My favourite is paper from the Cartiere Enrico Magnani".
You have exquisite taste. Incidentally, this paper was also favored by Sidney Shiff in his late-era (1982-2010) Limited Editions Club books.
64Hellbent2
Thanks again.
The size of the book will be about Quarto with several illustrations.
I also love the Magnani paper. It’s on my most wanted list.
The size of the book will be about Quarto with several illustrations.
I also love the Magnani paper. It’s on my most wanted list.
65kermaier
>64 Hellbent2:
Take a look at the early Shiff-era LEC edition of Conrad’s “The Secret Sharer”. That uses a very fine Magnani mould-made paper, in a small quarto/large octavo format, with 3 engravings printed on different paper (handmade, I believe).
Take a look at the early Shiff-era LEC edition of Conrad’s “The Secret Sharer”. That uses a very fine Magnani mould-made paper, in a small quarto/large octavo format, with 3 engravings printed on different paper (handmade, I believe).
66dlphcoracl
>55 Hellbent2:
I did a careful comparison of comparable books from several outstanding private presses and then included the Folio Society Limited Edition series of British WW I poets. Hopefully, this will provide a useful guideline for executing your private press book.
1. The price point was consistently between $300 to $350. In particular, the Barbarian Press recent editions, whether quarto or octavo size, sold for an average of $350 UD dollars in the standard edition.
2. A quarter leather binding is not necessary. These books covered the entire range, from full cloth to one quarter cloth with patterned paper over boards, to 1/8 leather and patterned paper or paste paper over boards. If a fine cloth such as raw silk or Japanese Asahi cloth and/or interesting patterned papers are used it is comparable in quality to a one-quarter leather binding.
3. Zerkall mould-made paper was, by far, the paper of choice. It was remarkable how consistently this paper was chosen by a range of outstanding private presses.
I did a careful comparison of comparable books from several outstanding private presses and then included the Folio Society Limited Edition series of British WW I poets. Hopefully, this will provide a useful guideline for executing your private press book.
1. The price point was consistently between $300 to $350. In particular, the Barbarian Press recent editions, whether quarto or octavo size, sold for an average of $350 UD dollars in the standard edition.
2. A quarter leather binding is not necessary. These books covered the entire range, from full cloth to one quarter cloth with patterned paper over boards, to 1/8 leather and patterned paper or paste paper over boards. If a fine cloth such as raw silk or Japanese Asahi cloth and/or interesting patterned papers are used it is comparable in quality to a one-quarter leather binding.
3. Zerkall mould-made paper was, by far, the paper of choice. It was remarkable how consistently this paper was chosen by a range of outstanding private presses.
67Hellbent2
>66 dlphcoracl:
Thank you very much. That is truly useful information. I have asked the printer to do a calculation based on the Magnani Pescia. A paper I believe will be able to take a linoleum print very well. I suggested the Zerkall paper as well. But apparently the sheet size it comes with is not optimal for the press. I don’t know the exact details regarding this.
Thank you very much. That is truly useful information. I have asked the printer to do a calculation based on the Magnani Pescia. A paper I believe will be able to take a linoleum print very well. I suggested the Zerkall paper as well. But apparently the sheet size it comes with is not optimal for the press. I don’t know the exact details regarding this.
68Hellbent2
A small update.
I've been playing the waiting game with a couple of publishers regarding the copyright of two different translations. I have gotten an OK from one; the oldest translation made by John Jay Parry. I'm still waiting to hear back regarding the other one.
The price will most likely end up slightly below $200. There will be 5 lino-prints by John Abell, 96 pages in total on Magnani Pescia 300 gsm paper, printed by the venerable Phil Abel (handandeye).
I will make a more thorough update when all details are in place.
I've been playing the waiting game with a couple of publishers regarding the copyright of two different translations. I have gotten an OK from one; the oldest translation made by John Jay Parry. I'm still waiting to hear back regarding the other one.
The price will most likely end up slightly below $200. There will be 5 lino-prints by John Abell, 96 pages in total on Magnani Pescia 300 gsm paper, printed by the venerable Phil Abel (handandeye).
I will make a more thorough update when all details are in place.
70ultrarightist
>68 Hellbent2: Excellent. A no brainer at that price. Is Magnani Pescia a mould-made paper?
71Dr.Fiddy
>68 Hellbent2: Thanks for the update! Count me in too :)
72kermaier
>68 Hellbent2:
Nice... I'm looking forward to it!
Nice... I'm looking forward to it!
74ultrarightist
>73 Hellbent2: Thanks. Very nice. Which color are you thinking of using?
75Hellbent2
>74 ultrarightist:
I'm thinking white. I have a few books printed on that paper in white and I know It looks great.
I'm thinking white. I have a few books printed on that paper in white and I know It looks great.
78const-char-star
I voiced my enthusiasm further up in this thread, but count me as double-enabled.
79booksforreading
>68 Hellbent2:
Sounds wonderful! Thank you for the update!
Sounds wonderful! Thank you for the update!
83Hellbent2
Great to hear that the interest seems to be growing for this little project.
>82 U_238:
The estimation has been done based on a print run of 100 using a simple but nice and fitting binding: A hardback, half-bound in cloth (linen) & printed papers.
Something like the one suggested by dlphcoracl earlier in this thread: https://www.nomadletterpress.com/shop/2020-vision
I have not really invested any time thinking about a more exclusive binding option. But would be open to do so if you guys want me to.
>82 U_238:
The estimation has been done based on a print run of 100 using a simple but nice and fitting binding: A hardback, half-bound in cloth (linen) & printed papers.
Something like the one suggested by dlphcoracl earlier in this thread: https://www.nomadletterpress.com/shop/2020-vision
I have not really invested any time thinking about a more exclusive binding option. But would be open to do so if you guys want me to.
84wcarter
>83 Hellbent2:
Hopefully you will contact those on this thread (myself included) who have expressed interest to give us the first bite at this delectable cherry.
Hopefully you will contact those on this thread (myself included) who have expressed interest to give us the first bite at this delectable cherry.
86Hellbent2
>84 wcarter:
You are all on my list :)
You are all on my list :)
89TristanJohn
Hello, I'd also be interested in this. Please can you add me to the list!
91921Jack
I am interested in the production of books, and would love it if you could share pictures of the book on its way to completion with us here on librarything when work gets started.
I.e. sample page layouts / book design -> printing the text -> printing the images -> binding
I.e. sample page layouts / book design -> printing the text -> printing the images -> binding
92MyrddinWyllt
Sounds amazing, definitely interested like everyone else!
94PatsChoice
I may also be interested, though I'm hoping to see a mock-up or glimpse of the final design before committing. Please keep me in your thoughts if you don't hit a hundred surefire committals by the time you start reaching out to people, Hellbent2. :)
96Glacierman
Oh, I would SO like this, but I just can't fit it in. I'm already committed to other things. Curses!
100BackcountryJ
I am also interested
102EdwinDrood
Your book will be beautiful. I'm happy to support.
104wcarter
>1 Hellbent2:
You have an admirable list of supporters before you even start. An enviable position for a new publisher.
You have an admirable list of supporters before you even start. An enviable position for a new publisher.
106ultrarightist
>1 Hellbent2: Any update on your project?
109PatsChoice
Would love an update on this as well (if there is one). :)
110abysswalker
>1 Hellbent2: Please also put me on your list of interested potential subscribers, if capacity remains.
111BackcountryJ
I wonder if this project ever made it off the ground?
112SF-72
>111 BackcountryJ:
I never saw this thread before, and yes, that would interest me, too. The book sounds really interesting.
I never saw this thread before, and yes, that would interest me, too. The book sounds really interesting.
113Levin40
Just seen this thread and would also be interested if it gets off the ground. Any updates >1 Hellbent2:?
114ultrarightist
I suspect that this project is dead
