Short vs. Long

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Short vs. Long

1LShelby
Mar 28, 2020, 11:06 am

So I was discussing book promotion elsewhere with LeonStevens and ended up mention that I find short stories difficult.

Leon replied: "I have the opposite problem in that I don't think that I am capable of writing a long story (or just don't want to). I'll come up with an idea and when I start writing, I just want to get to the point :) "

From my point of view, I'm trying to get straight to the point too, just my point is way off yonder, with a bunch of hills, gullies, raging rivers and ambushes in the way.

...
I've been told that a writer's "natural length" has something to do with their brain's innate desire for complexity. Forcing yourself to be more complex or less complex than you want to be is tough.

Readers can exhibit similar preferences, although usually not quite as marked.

So What about the rest of you? Do you have a preference for short or long? Do you swing according to mood?

Those of you who write, do your writing tastes match your reading tastes in this? Do you have any tips on approaching stories of different length differently?

2Marissa_Doyle
Mar 28, 2020, 11:47 am

I've only written a few short stories. I can relate to the complexity idea because that is what has kept my short story output low: I mostly have ideas suitable for novel length fiction, not the more closed world of a short story. However, I'm at work on a series of novellas (20-30K) that tread some middle ground here: they contain a larger developing story so they might be considered a serial, but also possess their own internal plots (mysteries) that are resolved in each.

3LeonStevens
Mar 29, 2020, 10:21 am

There is a skill to short stories, just as there is a craft to long ones. For me, a good short story needs to quickly draw in the reader, develop the characters through their dialogue, and have a twist at the end or something that makes you say "Oohh...".

I shared one on my website:Reasonable Hand-drawn Facsimile

4jeffschanz
Mar 29, 2020, 3:07 pm

I rarely read short stories, and I don't write them. Nothing against them, but my brain thinks in novel length. My very first finished "book" turned out to be a 3 book series because it came out to 380k words. I wasn't as disciplined then, but I see things in feature-length, and love to flesh out various characters and sub-plots, twists, etc. If I happen to get a short story idea some day, I'll probably write it, but for now, haven't thought of a good one.

When I'm looking for stuff to read, I tend to look for novels, or novellas as shortest.

5reading_fox
Mar 30, 2020, 4:53 am

>3 LeonStevens: - Oh I like that. Just a little twist as you say. As one of the ER members I get quite a few anthologies of short stories to read, and far too many of them seem to miss the twist. For me the best short stories are absolutely not the same as a novel with fewer words or a less complex plot. It's a pointed precise commentary on a very specific theme that makes you think.

As a reader, I do enjoy them when in the right mood. Great for commutes and reading on the go when you don't or can't hold the multi-strands of a complex novel in your head for extended periods of time.

Perhaps my least favourite form in the novelette. These are parhaps best described as just one theme from a novel, but as such lack either the clarity of a short story, or the complexity of a full novel, can't generally be read just on the commute, but aren't fulfilling enough for a good reading session. I get especially annoyed when they're marketed as a new book and sold at the same price as a full novel.

Obs just my opinions, and I can't offer any help on the howto of writing.

6LShelby
Mar 30, 2020, 8:26 pm

>3 LeonStevens: "There is a skill to short stories "

I agree, and alas, I have only reached the hit-and-miss stage.

>5 reading_fox: "It's a pointed precise commentary on a very specific theme that makes you think. "

The one thought I managed to come up with previously on how to make writing short easier (I have sold a couple short stories) had to do with focus, but I think that the twist/make you think part is something I should pay more attention to.

Both the ones I sold had something like that. I think most of the time when I try to do short I miss that bit. Then I know something is wrong but not what, and that's why I never finish them.

I have this desire to write comedic science fiction short stories set in the same universe as the books I'm in the middle of editing. The plan is that they are sort of a cross between Kieth Laumer's Retief and Wodehouse's Jeeves and Wooster, except that protags are bird-like aliens.

But I'm worried that they won't end up being short stories after all, and I will have another series of novels on my hands.

>4 jeffschanz: "My very first finished "book" turned out to be a 3 book series because it came out to 380k words."

Brother!
That's what happened to me with Across a Jade Sea, (except not quite as high a word-count.)

But Jade Sea isn't my first book. Even if we don't count my juvenilia, it was my 10th (11th and 12th) book(s). Apparently even with all that experience I'm only so-so at guessing how much space a story needs. :(

7jeffschanz
Mar 31, 2020, 12:39 pm

LShelby - I can't be certain I won't write something much too large again (my 2nd "book" was 148k - still long by most standards), but I am at least aware of the word count expectations. My YA portal fantasy came in around 80k, which is just about right for that genre, so I feel strangely satisfied that I could aim for a WC and hit it. We'll see if I can again. :)

8LShelby
Mar 31, 2020, 7:09 pm

>7 jeffschanz:
We will cheer each other on in this regard. :)

When I finish the editing I'm doing now, I'm going to go back to working on the fourth book of my EFP Epic. The first three all ended up nicely in the predicted ballpark. Only 2 or 3 to go...

But notice that I'm not certain if the story is 5 or 6 books long. ::sigh::

9Denscott
Abr 1, 2020, 9:27 am

The length of my stories is something I have agonised about. By other standards in this thread they are particularly short and priced accordingly (approx. 55,000 words) in a series of three released in quick succession (plus a short memoir of only about 35,000).

On reflection I did wonder whether I should have released them as two or even one book, however I have decided to go with what I feel comfortable with. When I consider that I have reached a natural end, I will finish the book and the reader can be the judge.

I have had some ideas for short stories but would need to hone my skills in that direction first and I have a number of other ambitions first. Possibly short stories would suit my style of working in short productive bursts of enthusiasm better.

10LShelby
Abr 1, 2020, 5:31 pm

>9 Denscott:
Not compared to Leon. His natural length seems to be less than a hundred words. :)

IMHO, there are advantages in the independent ebook market to producing lots of shorter things, (as long as you make sure that the readers know what they are getting, and you set your prices appropriately, but you are doing that.)

First off, giving out free stories is a bit easier if you spent a month or less on the freebie, as opposed to most of a year.

Secondly there's this visibility thingy. If you write huge long epics, and there are three year long gaps between releases, thats three years for a reader to get used to not hearing about you much. If you do a new release every two or three months, you never fall off the radar.

There's also the cost of taking the plunge, so to speak. If the writer of loooong books prices them low, I'll look like he doesn't think they are worth much. But the writer of short works can set the price low enough to land in the "negligible extra" range without looking cheap.

Mind you, I don't really have any personal experience to back these theories up with. But I have gathered some anecdotal evidence that supports them. :)

11LeonStevens
Abr 2, 2020, 1:11 pm

In the collection that I'm working on right now, my longest is 1700, and the shortest is 174. In my poem and prose book, I wrote what I call "short, short stories" which are less than 100 and are more observational captions to some of my sketches.

Like poetry, a book of short stories is made to be picked up and read when you feel like a short diversion (although I have read many anthologies more of less like a novel)

I recently read Oscar Wilde's short story collection and I was surprised. Many were written as fables, which I thought were quite interesting.

12Cecrow
Abr 2, 2020, 2:07 pm

I've been told, and have read, that short stories are more demanding, in the sense that no word can be wasted. Everything must pertain and count for something. A novel is the equivalent of a chance to stretch your limbs and take your time. There's things you can do in a novel - flashbacks, subplots, secondary characters, etc. - that you won't have a chance to do in shorter work. Supposedly if you get really good at writing short fiction, your novel writing will naturally become tighter (a good thing).

13MHThaung
Abr 3, 2020, 3:43 am

I prefer reading novels to short stories - maybe because I like investing time in getting to know the characters and the world. Similarly for my writing, I like novels because they give me the space to develop the characters and the world, and for plot strands to interweave with and reinforce each other.

Oddly, I also enjoy reading and writing microfiction (50-word or tweet-sized) stories where the focus is on a single point. Somehow, I can't write anything in between, length-wise.

14LShelby
Editado: Abr 3, 2020, 5:24 pm

>11 LeonStevens:
Oscar Wilde wrote fables... okay I can sort of see that. The Picture of Dorian Grey always sounded a like a fable in its intent. (But I didn't read it because it didn't sound fun. I read The Importance of Being Ernest.)

But that does sound like a good focussing technique.

Or trying to write a traditional fairytale without the extra trappings of novelization, or maybe an extended parable.

I have trouble starting stories with a theme, though, so I don't know how I'd go about coming up with something to write. :(

>12 Cecrow:
Writing tighter isn't an advantage if you already write tightly. And if you get too enthusiastic about omitting needless words, your prose will thud instead of flow.

But yes, its a good experience. :)

>13 MHThaung:
It sounds odd to like the two ends and nothing in the middle...

...but I dunno...

If you remove the middle of the spectrum, it almost doesn't count as doing the same thing at all, does it? It sort of becomes two entirely different things--and that's not odd at all.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I put little mini-stories in my glossaries. That isn't hard at all, because I stay zoomed out in worldbuilding mode and don't get into anyone's head.

15LShelby
Abr 16, 2020, 9:35 pm

I just had one of thise revelations that seems totally obvious in retrospect.

If I'm worried about my stories not wanting to stay short, why don't I outline them first?

(I know a number of writers who write naturally short but discovered that they could do long if they outlined, but if this works I will be the only writer I know who writes outlines to stay short.)

16paradoxosalpha
Abr 17, 2020, 3:31 pm

Yes, and outline form will help you subdivide if you find that the "whole" thing is too sprawling.

17LShelby
Abr 20, 2020, 9:11 pm

What I'm hoping is that it will prevent the sprawl. ::rueful::

I spent Saturday working on outlines for some tv series screenplays. I don't usually outline novels, but I consider the screenplays an exercise in writing to a predetermined structure. As long as I have that structure in place, I seem to have no trouble staying within it. I have successfully planned out an entire show and then written half the screenplay, while sticking to a fairlybconsistent wordcount per segment, just as would be needed should it ever be produced for television. (Unlikely, but I find writing it a fun challenge.)

If I can figure out how to similarly outline to a previously determined short structure, hopefully I will just not come up with a lot of unneeded complications. The story will begin short and stay short.

Anyway, its a theory.

So far my problem is that I can't figure out how to start. For the screenplays I already had chunks of the story in my head, so it was just a matter if figuring out where the chunks go, and then filling in any gaps.

For the short stories I want to write, I have a sense of the kind of story I want, the general shape of it, but no actual story details. Just the main characters. Normally that would be plenty. I would ask myself what these characters need to do to solve their problems, and answers would come. But in this kind of series, it isn't about the characters solving their own problems, it's about the characters solving other people's problems, with a completely new problem for each story. Therefore I'm not sure where to start.

Thus the plotting thread I started. Maybe if I listen to other people explain how they do it, something will shake loose. :)

18LeonStevens
Abr 21, 2020, 9:33 am

I wrote previously:
>11 LeonStevens: "In the collection that I'm working on right now, my longest is 1700...

My newest is approaching 3000...

It's not done yet. I'm scared.

19LShelby
Abr 21, 2020, 3:13 pm

>18 LeonStevens:
Do you know where its headed?

20LeonStevens
Abr 22, 2020, 11:27 am

>19 LShelby: Well, I do have the last paragraph written...

21LShelby
Abr 23, 2020, 2:16 pm

>20 LeonStevens:
If that's your way of hinting that its finished now, congratulations.

If not, as long as it looks like its actually headed somewhere, I don't see how running with it can hurt. :)

22LeonStevens
Abr 23, 2020, 3:05 pm

>21 LShelby: No, I wasn't hinting that it was done, just that I had an idea of how it would end. Now the decision is to take the scenic route or not...

23LShelby
Abr 25, 2020, 9:35 am

>22 LeonStevens:
If you have never taken the scenic route, then my vote would be for doing it at least once just for the learning experience. After all, it's not dangerous, immoral or fattening.

...It might be addictive though.

24LAbernathy
Abr 28, 2020, 3:06 pm

Excellent topic. I think there is a certain talent and finesse associated with each way of writing. Personally, my natural state is very succinct. I like that knockout-in-the-first round approach. However, in my attempts to write my novel, I learned all kinds of new techniques and had to think an entirely different way. It was a 9-round dance. It was fascinating, actually, and it really got the creative juices moving. I therefore deeply admire both short story writers and novelists, and my reading preference changes with my moods/circumstances. Variety is the spice of life.

25LAbernathy
Abr 28, 2020, 3:07 pm

I admire that so much! Trying to get a minimum word count has always been a struggle for me.

26LAbernathy
Abr 28, 2020, 3:08 pm

Today I learned the word, juvenilia. Thank you for that.

27LShelby
Abr 29, 2020, 3:35 pm

>24 LAbernathy: "I think there is a certain talent and finesse associated with each way of writing."

I totally agree with this. Very rare indeed is the writer who does both with equal ease.

I'm curious. Did you plan it out as having nine rounds, or did you just write it, and nine rounds is what it worked out to?

(FYI, post references are created with a > followed by the post number. The system adds the name and the link.) :)

28LeonStevens
mayo 2, 2020, 9:23 am

>23 LShelby: Story update: Scenic route aborted. Ran out of gas...

29LShelby
mayo 5, 2020, 7:55 pm

>28 LeonStevens:
That's fair.

But if you ever feel the desire to give it another try, I have been credibly informed that the appropriate way to deal with a dragging plot is to have a ninja show up. >;)

30LeonStevens
mayo 6, 2020, 8:45 am

>29 LShelby: I'll keep that in mind!