Why I voted "no"? (Tag separation/combination) #14

Okay, I get that Brits spell it "gaol" and the U.S. spells it "jail", but in this case the references are to completely different places.

"Birmingham Gaol" is used for a book about torture and refers to a gaol in Birmingham, England.

"Birmingham Jail" is used for a book by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and refers to the jail in Birmingham, Alabama.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Birmingham+Jail#combinations

We're more likely to call it "prison". People who come across "gaol" may use it, but I think it's fair to call it dated. I've voted Yes on the grounds that I would vote yes to combining Birmingham Harbour and Birmingham Harbor (if either of them had harbours). The words are the same.

>3 Cynfelyn: They are referring to completely different points on the globe is the reason to say no, though.

>3 Cynfelyn: At this point in time, there are two books and using the two tags to refer to completely different places. If there were dozens of tagged works with overlapping usages, I'd be happy to combine, but right now there is no question these tags are used in completely disjoint senses.

Peru is also the name of cities in more than a dozen of the United States and a couple of countries other than the one in Latin America. I mean, Cole Porter was from Peru! (Indiana, that is.)

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Peru#combinations

It seems to me that the South America "Peru" could be combined with the Latin America "Peru".

Isn't this like the Shakespeare tag? Sure, I might mean my neighbor, Joe Shakespeare, but the vast majority of the time someone uses that tag they mean the Bard of Avon. Similarly, if someone just uses the plain tag, Peru, they mean the country. If they had meant the city in Indiana they would have used something like Peru Indiana.

1945- indicates that it is about 1945 and after. Therefore should not be combined with 1945.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Economic+conditions+%281945-%29#combinat...

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Duitsland%3B1945-#combinations

>9 MarthaJeanne: More of these:

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/London+1945#combinations

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Kunst+%3B+1945

The Kathleen Norris author page is divided and both of the authors have books on the Kathleen Norris tag page.

I have proposed separations.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Kathleen+Norris#combinations

Stephen King is another divided author.
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Stephen+King#combinations

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Adult+Children+of+Alcoholics+%28ACOA%29#...

ACOA is a specific organization.

"Book Nook" is the name of a gazillion book stores (see: http://www.librarything.com/local_search.php?vsm=name&q=book+nook&venueM... The tag might as easily mean "bought at the Book Nook" as being a "nook book" (which I gather refers to a type of eBook): http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Book+Nook#combinations

Some big mess is going on with tags again, beware of any combinations involving this lump: https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/culture#tagaliases

The unrelated tags that ended up combined with 'culture' were never proposed and voted on, I'm sure of it. They somehow end up combined nevertheless when the buggy blank tag ends up there. I've proposed some separations, but before the blank tag is separated (and hopefully eliminated as a bug), it is Sisyphus effort :(

Blair Athol and Blair Atholl are different places according to Wikipedia. (Combination proposal)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%22The+Battle+of+Algiers%22#combinations

The tag with quotes is about the film. The other seems to be about the event.

There are also several proposals with groups of m and f. If the letters are separated and/or together with another word such as erotica, romance... then fine. But if it is just the four letters there are other abbreviations that are possible.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/mfmm#combinations
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/MMFF#combinations
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/mmmf#combinations

Regarding the proposals involving "Tibet (China)--History-1951": I don't think "Tibet (China)", "Tibet Autonomous Region (China)" and "Tibet" should be treated as syonymns. Some sources define a "Greater Tibet" (BBC) or "ethno-cultural Tibet" (Wikipedia) as extending outside the Tibet Autonomous Region and by some definitions outside China.

"Menage a Trois" (with quotation marks) is, as usual, a short story. menage a trois refers to books about menages a trois.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%22Menage+a+Trois%22#combinations

The use of "@" before a location often indicates where the book is, not that it is set in or about a location. And because there are no books currently tagged @ South America Paraguay, I think it should be kept separate from South America - Paraguay. The person might have moved and taken his books with him. ;-)

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%40+South+America+Paraguay#combinations

3 out of 4 uses of "nomfiction" are from a single user, all for books that they also tag "nonfiction" – this implies "nomfiction" isn't just a typo for "nonfiction". All 3 books are cookbooks, so I suspect this is a pun on nom as an eating sound. (Combination proposal)

Now I want to steal "nomfiction". I would use it for food-focused fiction, though, not cookbooks.

I'd like to think "nomfiction" is the sort of cookbook you read, but never expect to actually use a recipe from.

I was thinking nomfiction is all those cozy mysteries based around food shops and cooking themes...

AndreasJ (#23):

I'd like to think "nomfiction" is the sort of cookbook you read, but never expect to actually use a recipe from.

Oh, I like that too!

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Travelers+Through+Time#combinations

Travelers Through Time is a series name, and only books from that series have the Tag.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%2AGlastonbury#combinations

*Glastonbury is being used for books that do not seem to be about the town.

Feminist theray seems to be a typo for "feminist therapy", not feminist theory. (Combination proposal)

>28 Edward: Ah! I hadn't actually looked, but had voted no because it looked more like therapy than theory to me. I do wish people would look at the tag pages before suggesting combinations.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Quantum+Fantay#combinations

Quantum Fantay is a Belgian rock band and should not be combined with quantum fantasy.

See: http://www.progarchives.com/artist.asp?id=1655

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/race#combinations

Yes, Wettlauf is German for the kind of race where people see who can run fastest, but the tag 'Race' is mostly used for the colours of people's skin.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Drachen#combinations

Drachen can be dragons, but they can also be kites.

>33 Cynfelyn: That link is not a place to vote.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/POETAS+PERUANAS#combinations

POETAS PERUANAS would be female Peruvian poets.

See also https://www.librarything.com/tag/POETAS+PERUANOS

Wouldn't Peruanos then mean male?

>36 karenb:

Male or mixed or unspecified.

>37 AndreasJ: Good to know. Thanks!

>38 karenb: As 'men' is being less and less used in English. I once (OK it was 20 years ago now.) had a man ask me why I couldn't just assume that I was meant too when 'man' or 'men' was written. I said, "Just around that corner is a door that says 'Men'. Should I just assume that I should go in there?"

1982; First published is only used as part of the following tag string:

Edgar Allan Poe Award for best novel, 1982; First published, under the title "Peregrine", by Congdon & Lattes, New York, 1981

Thst is, the book won an award in 1982 and was first published in 1981. The tag should not be combined with first published 1982. (Combination proposal)

I suspect that in the following tags the tilde (~) character means "approximately" (the user has tags with the tilde for years up to 2007, mostly at 5-year intervals, and tags without the tilde for every year from 2006 to 2020). I've voted against combining with unqualified year tags.

• .~1980
• .~1985
• .~1986
• .~1990
• .~1995
• .~2000
• .~2005
• .~2006
• .~2007

Recu par Caro is French for "received by Caro". Rec by Caro might mean that but is at least as likely to mean "recommended by Caro". Either way, I doubt the tags refer to the same person or indicate books that have anything in common. (Combination proposal)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/milliners#combinations

According to the definitions I have seen, milliners make OR sell women's hats. A hat maker makes hats, not just for women.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/jewellery+makers#combinations

While silversmiths usually make jewellry, they also make other things out of silver, and other people, such as goldsmiths, glass workers ... also make jewellry.

Judging by the books on which it is used, "mama" appears to be a location tag, while "mama" is used for books about mamas.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%40mama#combinations

The same seems to be true of "~mama" (or perhaps an ownership tag): http://www.librarything.com/tag/%7EMama

Portuguese Literature can mean literature in the Portuguese language from outside Portugal, unlike Portugal-Literature. It's also possible that the latter tag could mean literature about Portugal. (Combination proposal)

3.6 is not the same as 3-6
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/3.6+Grade+Level#combinations

I'm also amazed at the number of blank tags that are being voted 'yes'.

The tag maze runner series can refer to the Maze Runner book series, but also to the series of film adaptations. (Combination proposal)

One of the two works tagged Timothy II is about the Biblical book 2 Timothy. However, the other is Heavy Metal: Sirens Special, Vol. 18, Issue 3, Fall 2004, where I suspect "Timothy II" is more likely to be the name of a musician. (Combination proposal)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Mongoli#combinations

Depending on what language you are using, Mongoli can be the language or and adjective describing the country as well as people.

As far as I can tell, the tag Jonh Ingham refers to a music journalist (not a typo; see Wikipedia), while John Ingram is the name of various other people (Wikipedia). (Combination proposal)

I don't know what prompts people to vote yes on combinations involving a blank tag, but please vote down. Buggy blank tags create black hole mess

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/the+theater+of+cruelty#combinations

Edit: another one with already 3 yes votes :(

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/snake-oil+salesman#combinations

Science and the Paranormal is the name of a book. (Why you'd tag a book with its name, I don't know, but there it is.)

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Science+and+the+Paranormal#combinations

Soulcatcher as a single word is a character name from Cook's Black Company series. not a generic fantasy/paranormal character type like two-word variations

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Soulcatcher#combinations

One of two uses of The Mark of the beast is for the title of a story by Rudyard Kipling. (Combination proposal)

B*E*A*S*T* punctuated with asterisks seems to be specific to books by Rebecca Goings, whose books use that punctuation in their titles. B.E.A.S.T. is used only for a seemingly unrelated book by a different author. (Combination proposal)

There are currently three proposals of things to combine with culture.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/culture#combinations

Two of them have yes votes on them.

"01/2014" could mean "acquired 01/2014", "deaccessioned 01/2014", etc. It does not necessarily mean "read 01/2014":

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/01%252F2014#combinations

Could also mean first read of the desired 2014 books read. Doesn't necessarily mean January either.

Which is why I voted against both proposals.

Britart is the name of a specific artistic movement or group of artists, not just an abbreviation for British art. See Wikipedia "Young British Artists" and book titles like Artrage!: The Inside Story of the BritArt Revolution.

I'm unsure about the two-word tag brit art.

(Combination proposals)

>60 Edward:

From what I can find, "brit art" and "brit artists" appear to also be movement-specific terms.

Another combination with blank tag getting yes votes

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/America#combinations

There's one here, too.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/childhood#combinations

Voting yes on these is taking lumping much too far.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Military+History+-+Civil+War#combination...

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/soil+science#combinations

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Popular+Science+and+Mechanics

Luckily nobody voted yes on some of these.

Lumping is the least of the problems with a blank. It's super buggy and creates a black hole mess sucking in and combining tags no one ever proposed combining. It's again ended up as an alias of 'culture' tag, which as a result has over 5000 unrelated aliases. Take a look https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/culture#tagaliases

I know. But some people seem to vote as confirmed lumpers who are happy to vote yes on really crazy combinations.

Why is xaagmabag the source of most of the blank-to-tag combinations? What causes those proposals?

ETA: Ah, I found a partial explanation at https://www.librarything.com/topic/298266:
"Due to the known bug where combining a tag starting with a double quotation mark results in a blank tag combination proposal, the blank tag has been combined with a variety of other tags including 'culture', 'Brazillian literature', and most relevant to LT, 'LTER'."

Anyway, I'll continue watching for these proposals to add my No votes.

Quite outside of the question of whether German 'retten' and English 'save' are close enough in meaning to be combined, both words have other meanings in Danish and Hungarian.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/retten#combinations

See https://www.librarything.com/work/23094380 for an example of a use of save where retten would be inappropriate. Save is also used a lot in a religious context where retten is not used in German.

>67 MarthaJeanne:

Thanks, I changed my vote from "undecided" (my usual fallback with languages I don't know!).

There's a Venice in California, too, and it's a very popular tourist destination:

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Venice+-+Description+and+Travel#combinati...

Another popular place for tourists is Naples, Florida:

http://www.librarything.com/tag/naples+-+travel+%2526+description

Venezia - arte and Venice - Art could refer to art depicting or located in Venice, not just to Venetian art. (Combination proposals)

The tag Henri Bordeaux is only used for a character in a novel. The tag Henry Bordeaux is only used for an author, even if that author is sometimes also known as "Henri". (Combination proposal)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Hanover+House#combinations

Hannover House is not a misspelling for Hanover House. It is an American Film Distributor.

Sanssouci is in Germany.
Sans-Souci is in Haiti.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Sanssouci#combinations

There's another large set of proposals to combine tags for numbered boxes – for example, Box A1. I don't see any possible value to these combinations, as one user's "Box A1" won't have any connection with another user's "Box A-1".

Personal tags (those specific to cataloger and not relevant to others, be it location, who lent you the book, etc) in general have no value for anyone else, but there's no harm in combining them either.

and the fact is that some people will use Box A1 this month, forget how they entered it, and use Box A-1 three months later.

The tag flag is used for books about national flags, etc. Meanwhile [FLAG] is only used by one account, apparently not to indicate books that are related to flags. The same user has square-bracket tags like [check isbn], so possibly the meaning is "this book is flagged for attention". (Combination proposal)

I've voted against combining Bengali folk tale and Folklore - Bengali because folklore is not limited to tales. (Combination proposal)

Although there is some overlap, the tags faeries and fairies seem to be used differently. Faeries is more commonly used by people tagging urban fantasy authors like Holly Black or Laurell K. Hamilton and fairies is more commonly used by things referencing fairy tales or children's books or any of the Flower Fairies books. (Combination proposal).

Nooooo!!!!

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/William+Shakespeare#combinations

Whoa! I mean, the plays are great and all, but still...

The tag Chicago is generally used for books about Chicago, Illinois. I think * Chicago is being used for books published by the University of Chicago Press, and few if any of them are related to the city. (Combination proposal)

"The Bottle Neck" is a story by Hans Christian Andersen. "bottleneck" isn't.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/bottleneck#combinations

One of two uses of The Ostrich is for the title of a poem by Ogden Nash. (Combination proposal)

One of the two people using the Pyrates tag is using it for the title of a series. (Combination proposal)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/rock+painting#combinations

While the other tags seem to mostly refer to the craft of painting small stones for decorative reasons, rock painting is also used on books referring to prehistoric paintins in caves or on rock outcroppings.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Beweise#combinations

This is trying to combine German "Beweise"
with English "proofs"

which works as a straight translation, but includes (circumstantial) evidence in court or criminal cases in German and not in English. Which leads to a difference in usage: the German tag "Beweise" is mostly used for crime stories and thrillers, whereas "proofs" is mostly used for mathematics and philosophy

>87 chwiggy: Evidence would be a closer translation. Not sure I would vote to combine that either.

Sorry, even if the one user of American Cannon has obviously used it as a misspelling of Canon, a cannon and a canon are two very different things.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/American+Cannon#combinations

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/B-I-B-L-E#combinations

This has three song books and no Bibles. I assume the tag refers to the song.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Reptil#combinations

Reptil is a comics character.

> Reptil is a comics character.

also goes against the idea of not combining plural and singular nouns

1000 is not the same as 1001.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/1000-before-you-die#combinations

>93 lilithcat: why does it have 11 yes votes?!

>94 gilroy:

Beats me!

yeh I was shocked by that too, wanted to post here as well yesterday, but then my ADHD brain forgot

Maybe they think one's a typo or a mis-remembering for the other and they both actually refer to the same list.

Colombia is a country in South America. (as well as other uses.)

There are many places in the USA named Columbia, as well as a space shuttle and the Apollo 11 command module. (Again, with other uses.)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Colombia#combinations

Note that the person most often using the tag columbia uses it for works connected with space flight and not Latin America.

I think I created this separation proposal the wrong way (I'm not sure though)
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Colombian#combinations

but the German (i can't find this spelling in any other language) "Kolumbien" (Colombia) is combined with "Colombian", even though the equivalent adjective would be "kolumbianisch".

The way I separated them they would, however, leave them combined the wrong way I think.

Due to the weirdness around the "culture" tag*, I'm not sure that adding to them would help anything.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/culture#combinations

*That is, the unknown reasons why so many unrelated tags were combined into it, and which cannot be seperated out

>100 karenb: I don't see any evidence that there are unrelated tags combined into it. https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/culture#tagaliases shows 18 aliases, and they're all variants of culture.

>101 prosfilaes: It's the black hole of tags, just recently cleaned up. When someone tries to combine a blank with something, it combines to Culture.

>101 prosfilaes: There certainly were, and very recently, too.

>100 karenb: combining tags that start with a quotation mark (") might create blanks that become a black hole for unrelated tags.

https://www.librarything.com/topic/298266#6619190

Y'all, please vote no on those.

Specifically, it's these tag combinations that might cause another massive mess:

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/"Culture#combinations
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/"Culture#combinations
https://www.librarything.com/tag/"Culture"#combinations
https://www.librarything.com/tag/"+Culture#combinations

I don't see why legitimate culture tags shouldn't be combined (now that the mess has been cleared). They shouldn't cause another mess.

Regarding tags with quotation marks and a blank, it's worth noting that a blank results when the one with the quotation marks is the page where you submit the proposal, but not the other way around. So, if you open the tag page for instance culture, and copy/paste "culture" under 'propose tag combination' it will work fine. Starting from "culture" and copy/pasting culture in the proposal will result in a combination of culture and a blank tag. It is a weird, weird bug

Has the mess been cleared permanently? Are we certain that it won't immediately restart?

If so, I missed that news; my apologies.

>107 karenb: I don't think it's possible to predict whether it'll stay cleared or not. Most likely not. There's nothing to really do about that, though, except to try to be careful about our combinations and check back every now and then.

>106 SandraArdnas: strange, but that means the current combinations aren't expected to create blacks, yeah? That's a relief.

>107 karenb: Ithink it's fair to assume the problem will continue to reoccur until the LT developers fix the combination bug(s).

>107 karenb: I don't think it's been fixed, but combining in legitimate culture tags shouldn't trigger it.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Amma+Seghers#combinations

This is at best a misspelling that the user caught and changed, as there are currently no books with this tag.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%2792+Olympics#combinations

While the summer olympics 1992 were in Barcelona, the winter olympics were in Albertville.

Also https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/UBI#combinations

There are various meanings for this abreviation.

>112 MarthaJeanne: Regarding Olympics, Winter Olympics are always specified as winter, sort of like tennis vs table tennis, or volleyball vs beach volleyball.

>111 MarthaJeanne: The misspelled Amma Seghers tag is being used on the book Anna Seghers (1900 - 1983). This may not have been visible when you looked – I've noticed some tag pages have been showing incomplete lists of books recently (due to cacheing?). I've voted Yes to the proposed combination.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/released-2005#combinations

'Weitergegeben' could be translated 'passed on'. Now in context of 'releasing into the wild' in Book Crossing this could be appropriate. But when a book is published it is also said to be released, and the books with this tag were all published in 2005. This terminology is even more common with movies.

The member has several similar tags.

Many of the books tagged Grey Owl are by or about the writer Grey Owl. The tag Gray Owl seems to be used only for the bird. (Combination proposal)

Regarding the proposal to combine abecedarius and abecedarium (combination proposal): I don't know whether all LT users are making the same distinction, but Wikipedia says that an abecedarius and abecedarium are different things.

Nightowls is the title of a radio programme presented by James Whale (Wikipedia), and the tag is used only for Whale's memoir Almost a Celebrity: A Lifetime of Night-Time. I've voted against the proposals to combine this tag with other tags that use different spacing or punctuation, as these don't seem related to the radio programme.

Although books by Victoria Houston are tagged with both "Loon Lake" and "Lake Loon", Loon Lake is also the title of a book by E.L. Doctorow and the tag is used for that as well.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Loon+Lake#combinations

There are two proposals affecting St. Martin's (proposals page):

1) to combine with St Martins, and
2) to separate from St. Martins.

These seem inconsistent but for some reason both are winning. I've voted against (1) and in favour of (2), as the presence or absence of an apostrophe does appear to distinguish various similarly named places.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Eivissenc#combinations

Eivessenc seems to be only used for the language spoken on Ibiza. Ibizan is used much more generally, particularly for a kind of dog.

Besides, Ibizan does not seem to be used.

Three people think "birthday 2012" is the same as "birthday": http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/birthday#combinations

"read 2013 LLLLL" (5 "L"s) is not the same as "read LLLLLL 2013" (6 "L"s)

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/read+LLLLLL+2013#combinations

>123 lilithcat: what do either of those tags mean?

>124 aspirit:

I don't know. As there is only one person using them, and it's the same person, I assume there must be some significance to them that's not obvious to the rest of us.

>124 aspirit:

The member uses a lot of different numbers of "L"s, coupled with dates: http://www.librarything.com/tags/booksnmusic

In general, his tagging system is very idiosyncratic!

>125 lilithcat: In general, I'm happy to combine tags that differ only in characters with no meaning except to the tagging user, given the user's own catalogue won't be affected by the combination. I read both these tags as "read 2013 [junk]" and would combine them with each other or with "read 2013".

>127 Edward:

Who are you to say it's junk?

>128 lilithcat: I understood it as junk as far as our understanding of it is concerned, not as a value statement. It means something only to the person using it (and that person will retain his/her original tag even when combined)

>128 lilithcat: It wasn't meant as pejorative. I attach punctuation to some of my own tags to remind myself of information that I don't expect to have value in LT outside my own catalogue, such as "this is an old tag that I no longer apply to new books".

Instead of "read 2013 [junk]" I should have written something like "read 2013 [data only useful in tagger's catalogue]".

Because as the saying goes--

One member's junk is another member's treasured note.

The books tagged "Contras" are about Nicaragua. "Contra", while occasionally used that way, is primarily for contra dancing.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Contras#combinations

There's a proposal to combine "John 20-21" with "John 20:21". I would interpret the first to mean "John, Chapter 20 through Chapter 21" and the second to mean "John, Chapter 20, verse 21".

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/John+20-21#combinations

Various tags have been proposed for combination with solitude (combination proposals). I've voted in favour of the combination with #solitude as the punctuation doesn't seem meaningful, but I think that "Solitude", “Solitude” and Ŧ "Solitude" all refer to the titles of short stories or poems.

>134 Edward:

It is often the case that a word or phrase in quotation marks is, as you suggest, a poem or short story. I always try to verify those.

>134 Edward: #solitude is only used for 2 works by Gabriel García Márquez. One of those includes the word in the title.

Ivory and Bone is a novel, and the tag is used only for it. "Bone and Ivory" is used for books about bone and ivory.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Bone+and+Ivory#combinations

Hieronymus Bosch has been proposed for combination with tags specific to the artist who died in 1516. However, the name and tag have other uses including a fictional detective created by Michael Connelly (see tagmash Hieronymus Bosch, detective).

"Football" is not the same thing as "fussball" (or, in some cases, Fußball).

The former is played on a field with actual human beings, and could mean American football or soccer. The latter is "table football" with little, tiny figures representing the players. Or, if it's Fußball, it might also refer to soccer.

http://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Sport+-+Fu%C3%9Fball#combinations

http://www.librarything.com/tag/Fussball+%252F+Mystery

>139 lilithcat: Honestly, I've never heard of table football being referred to as fussball, which is simply German for football (ß is commonly written ss unless you have a German keyboard). Wiki disambiguates fussball, but in the article about table football uses 'foosball' instead

More confusion arises from different football usage in Europe vs US. Football (and Fußball) will here invariably mean what you refer to as soccer.

>140 SandraArdnas:

From Wikipedia:

"Fussball or Fußball (if the German letter ß is used) may refer to:

Table football, also known as foosball or table soccer, a custom-table game loosely based on association football with figures on rods representing the player"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fussball

Regardless, football cannot be combined with fußball, because football can refer to two very different games.

If you look at the second set of tags, you already see from the covers that the only book with each tag is from a different sport.

The first set, the English tag is used for both games, the German tag only for what everybody outside the USA refers to as football. In neither case are the current books about the table game.

>141 lilithcat: Yes, like I said, the disambiguate fussball as having two possible references, but then in the linked article on table football don't use that form

"Table football, also known as table soccer, and known as foosball /ˈfuːzbɔːl/ in North America, is a table-top game that is loosely based on football"

Dawson's Creek is a television series set in the United States. Dawson Creek is a city in Canada. (Combination proposal)

I've voted against the proposal to combine the tags Solomon Islands (an archipelago and nation in the Pacific Ocean; Wikipedia) and Salomon Islands (an atoll in the Indian Ocean; Wikipedia).

One complication is that the Salomon Islands tag has only been used once, for a book about the Pacific region, where it may actually be an error for "Solomon Islands". However, I don't think we should combine tags that would have different meanings if used correctly.

Posting from my phone, so no links, but I can't imagine a case where I would combine a tag including Saint (current example Saint Thomas More) with a tag not including it, like Thomas More. It's a posthumous title added by the Catholic Church, not something I see relevant to the person, and it reflects a distinct view of the person that will show up in the books it's applied to.

>146 prosfilaes: A link is below.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Thomas+More#combinations

>146 prosfilaes: It's more than that. St Thomas More is a specific person. There can be many people named Thomas More who aren't saints. Wikipedia lists some:

Peopleedit
Thomas More (died 1421), MP for Gloucester
Thomas More (died 1461), MP for Cumberland
Thomas More (died 1606) (1531–1606), English politician
Thomas More (weaver), 17th-century lay theologian

>146 prosfilaes: For me, the more common the name, the less likely I am to agree to combine it with any listing a title or other modifier. So a Thomas More would get a no because of commonality. Same with a Stephen Miller or a John Smith

3.15 and 315 are not the same, at least not when I took math: https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%40+315#combinations

Humanity has two meanings.
1) People in general
2) Kindness towards other people

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/humanity#combinations

Do any of these translations fit both definitions?

German 'Menschlichkeit is only definition 2).

Greek 'ανθρωπότητα' seems to be definition 1).

As anyone from Illinois knows, there is more than one important Adlai Stevenson. For those who aren't from Illinois: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adlai_Stevenson

https://www.librarything.com/tag/Stevenson+Adlai+Ewing+1900-1965

"Abydos" is not just an ancient Egyptian city: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abydos

At least one of the books with that tag is part of the Stargate series, and there are others (books about writing) where the reference isn't clear.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Abydos#combinations

>154 aspirit: others (books about writing)

"Abydos" is also a writing program and its associated literary convention.

Also "teen fiction (19 books" is not the same as "teen fiction": https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/teen+fiction+%2819+books#combinations

>154 aspirit:

Thanks for the info!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Stephen

There have been King Stephens in several countries. I can't post the combining page because neither tag shows a combination, but it is currently in the above threshold list.

The King Stephen tag is also used for books by Stephen King.

ETA It has moved to below threshold.

Although Valhalla and Walhalla can both refer to the Norse afterlife, they're both also names of places on Earth and aren't used interchangeably there. For example, there are books like Walhalla: A German Settlement in Upstate South Carolina. For more examples see Wikipedia: Valhalla, Walhalla.

(Combination proposal here)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/OOP#combinations

I've put a note in. Many books here are tagged OoP that are probably Out of Print.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Syria+-+architecture#combinations

Architecture vs archeology

Architecture is the design of buildings, including those that are new and currently in use. Archeology is the study of past human activity through the recovery material items that can be as small as a pin. Those aren't the same things, even less alike when referring to an existing country such as Syria.

>161 SandraArdnas:, >162 aspirit:

It's rather astonishing that 5 people voted "yes" on that proposal!

>163 lilithcat: I'm guessing both the proposer and voters 'saw' the same word, arch... you gloss over without realizing, convinced you've read it correctly. Happens to me a lot when proofreading. Even though I'm actively focused on checking whether everything that should be 'from' is indeed that and not 'form' I always miss some because I still see what I expect to see in some cases.

There is a Charles VII of Sweden as well as France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_VII_of_Sweden

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Charles+Vii--King+of+France#combinations

Philip II of Spain was not the only one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Philip+II+of+Spain#combinations

Same for Louis VII: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_VII_(disambiguation)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Louis+VII+%28France%29#combinations

AND Louis IX: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_IX_(disambiguation)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Louis+XI#combinations

Louis XIV does not refer only to the king: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_(disambiguation)

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Louis+14+of+france#combinations

https://www.librarything.com/work/17867291
https://www.librarything.com/work/11130957 are examples of why I voted no on https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/cannibalism#combinations

Cannibalism can refer to eating your own species, even if you are not human. The other refers specifically to eating human flesh.

>166 MarthaJeanne:

In English, “anthropophagy” sometimes refers to the eating of human flesh by non-humans. If the same is true in French, the more reason not to combine.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Louis+XIII#combinations

What ever one thinks of the other suggestions, Louis XIII is not the same as Louis XIIII. (Louis XIIII is usually written Louis XIV.)

>168 MarthaJeanne: Louis XIII is also a relatively well known cognac. There might even be books about it.

>169 spiralsheep: There are certainly books in there referring to a style of furniture, not directly to the king. Feel free to suggest the separations.

>168 MarthaJeanne: I think the idea is that XIIII must be a mistake for XIII since the first isn't a valid roman numeral, (although it is used on clock faces)

It was used on his coins.

>171 jjwilson61:

XIIII is used on clock faces? I've never seen that! I've seen 24-hour clocks with Roman numerals, but they used XIV.

Anyway, if you look at the tags for the book it is used on, there is one tag for Louis XIII, one for Louis XIIII, one for Louis XV... and none for Louis XIV.

Back when I went to school we were taught that both IIII and IV were valid.

>173 lilithcat: It's comparatively rare but, yes, XIIII has been used on clock faces. /off topic

>175 spiralsheep:

Interesting! You learn something new every day. Thanks.

Last I checked, King George V and King George VI were two different Georges.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/George+VI+%3A+King+of+England+%281895-19...

There are multiple famous figures known as "Henry VI".

See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI,_Holy_Roman_Emperor (12th Century) -and- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI_of_England (15th Century).

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Henry+VI#combinations

I think I proposed all the applicable separations for Henry VI and Louis XIII. Plus a couple of alternate combinations.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Louis+XIII#combinations

A few people have voted no on the separations.

Louis XIIII is still not the same as Louis XIII.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Louis+XIIII--King+of+France#combinations

>180 MarthaJeanne: Louis XIIII is still not the same as Louis XIII.

Headdesk.

>180 MarthaJeanne:, >181 karenb:

Louis XIIII is still not the same as Louis XIII.

I added a warning/disambiguation notice.

Maybe this is semantics but to me these are two different tags

Queen of the Pirates -- suggests one person in charge of a lot of people
Pirate Queens -- suggests multiple people in charge of different groups of people.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Queen+of+the+Pirates#combinations

>183 gilroy:

I agree.

>165 lilithcat: & >182 lilithcat:
Louis XIV does not refer only to the king

I've added a warning/disambiguation onto Louis XIV with the various non-kingly reasons that tag could be used. Was thinking primarily about the architecture/art style "Louis XIV", but also at least two of the albums by the San Diego band "Louis XIV" have been catalogued (though 0 current members) so it's not inconceivable that the tag could be used for them too.

Though admittedly a glance at current tag use doesn't look like there's pressing need, I've still gone ahead and proposed separations for the several tags that do explicitly reference King, Sun King, France, or dates of reign:
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Louis+XIV#combinations

I found a stranded tag for Luis Xiv de Francia: https://www.librarything.com/tag/Luis+XIv+de+Francia
which will also want to be combined if/when the king's tags are separated (I don't have the experience to know if it is better to hold off on this, or if it can be proposed now).

I've voted on the Louis XIII separations too, though they don't seem to be getting a majority so it may be these are uphill ones to achieve without concerted effort.
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Louis+XIII#combinations

"The Galactic Empire" is used for Isaac Asimov's works. "Galactic Empire" is used more generally for the works of multiple authors, including Poul Anderson. "Empire Galactic" is currently only used for Frank Herbert's Dune. These tags don't have the same meaning.

Also, I believe multiple empires isn't the same as one.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Galactic+Empire#combinations

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/ice+and+fire+series#combinations

Ice and fire is used for GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire series. Fire and Ice is used for two series titled Fire and Ice

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/School+Library+Journal%27s+Top+100+Child...

This was supposedly a copy paste error with a part of the pair missing bits, but it somehow got 3 yes votes

There are many people named James Stewart. Both real and fictional. Not all are authors or actors.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/A-+James+Stewart

"Interior decorators" are people. "Interior decoration" is what an interior decorator does.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Interior+decorators+-+California#combina...

"Non-fiction - fantasy" is non-fiction about fantasy. "Non fantasy - fiction" is fiction that isn't fantasy.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Non+Fantasy+-+Fiction#combinations

"Alfonso X the wise of Castile 1221-84 - Cantigas de Santa Maria" refers to a specific group of poems with musical setting written during the reign of Alfonso X.*

"Alfonso X Ivrea El Sabio of Castile León & Galicia 1221/1252-84" refers to the person.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Alfonso+X+the+wise+of+Castile+1221-84+-+...

* here's a sample performed by one of my favorite early music groups: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efFHN4W5ZHU

>193 lilithcat: You didn't need to convince me. You're absolutely right

Thank you for that lovely link though.

There are several places named "Nile". It's also a television series, a band, a singer, ships, a surname, etc.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Nil+%28Fleuve%29#combinations

>195 lilithcat: In that case a LOT of separating needs to be done, because "Nile" is combined with many variations of "The Nile" and "Nile River"
https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Nile#tagaliases

>196 norabelle414: At some point common sense needs to prevail. If, without any other context, someone mentioned the Nile you'd think of the river in Egypt, right?

>197 jjwilson61: I'm a lumper, so I'd be happy having them all together. But I think that "Nile (river)" should be combined with "Nil (fleuve)" one way or the other.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Moon+%232#combinations

The three (Moon #2, Moon (2) and Moon # 2) are from three different series, they do not all refer to book 2 in the same series. There's no reason to combine them. If they are to be combined, each would be better combined into a longer series name (2), e.g. Moon Maid 2, Charlie Spotted Moon Mystery 2 or some such

>199 SandraArdnas: Sorry, but I voted yes to combining. The tags are just slightly different ways of saying "Moon number 2" irrespective of what they have been used to tag.

I vote yes as well. I would vote against combining, for example, "Moon #2" and "Moon Maid 2"

>199 SandraArdnas: They're the same tag. I'm fine with splitting stuff like the "Birmingham Gaol" that started this topic, at least until the lines actually show blurring, but there's nothing about the series that connects the tags to the series; the next person to use Moon #2 or Moon # 2 could mean any of these series, or any number of other ones.

>202 prosfilaes: Usage connects them to series. Moon with number 2 in any form does not in itself meaning anything. But it's not a hill I'm willing to even fight on, let alone die. It's a minor tag with a handful of uses and probably only relevant to only those few people. I believe it's already passed the threshold

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Tunisie#combinations

There is a country Tunisia with capital Tunis. They should not be confused.

"Grass - Die blechtrommel" refers to the work The Tin Drum. "Günter Grass -" is obviously broader.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/G%C3%BCnter+Grass+-#combinations

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%28GRASS+ROOTS%29#combinations

(GRASS ROOTS) is used only for a periodical with that title. I don't think it should be combined with a general tag that doesn't have the space.

>206 MarthaJeanne: The tag "grassroots" is already combined with "grass roots" with a space.

But this has extra punctuation around it.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Olympics-+Barcelona+1992#combinations

There is a proposal to combine this with "'92 Olympics". Up to and including 1992 the Winter and Summer Olympics were held in the same year, with the 1992 Winter Olympics held in Albertville, France. (These were rapidly followed by the 1994 Winter Olympics, instituting the current offset scheduling.)

>209 lorax:

I've added a disambiguation notice (not that any one will look at it).

Am I the only one who thinks that "German history" could mean "history of Germany" OR "history in the German language"?

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/German+History#combinations

Same with Portuguese: "Portuguese history" could mean "history in the Portuguese language" OR "the history of Portugal"

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/portuguese+history#combinations

(Let me know if I'm mistaken)

>211 karenb: I would never think that and the books tagged are all about Germany anyway, whether in German or not

>211 karenb:

Honestly, that would not occur to me.

>211 karenb: It could even mean history as written by a German (speaking) author. To some extent there are national "schools"

Thanks, all.

France/French history: https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/French+history#combinations

Italy/Italian history: https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Italian+History#combinations

Spain/Spanish history: https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Spanish+History#combinations

Note: No proposals for England/English history, which may be the best argument against conflating a place and its language.

>216 karenb: Sorry, but I have no idea why you interpret it as language. Italian history isn't history in Italian, but history of Italy/Italians. It may or may not be in Italian, but it is invariably about Italy either way

>211 karenb: >216 karenb: Okay, I can see the difference in the History of France versus the history of the French, as that could include places other than the country of France. Same with the History of Spain versus the History of the Spanish. I'll even grant the history of Portugal and History of Germany are not the same as the history of Portugese and German. Not sure I can connect the same thought process to Italy versus Italian... Mostly because Greek and Roman histories tend to be pulled away from the history of modern Italy by some historians.

>218 gilroy: History of Germany versus German history seems one of the strongest things not to combine; the Germans were all over the place, long before there was a Germany, and while Hitler was more or less successful in consolidating Germans in Germany, it was ultimately by getting them expelled from other countries and getting Germans in other countries to stop identifying as Germans; I suspect way more Swiss identified as German in 1800 before German nation building than in 1875, after the German Empire was born, and that dropped further by 1950.

>216 karenb: If I undestand you correctly, you would see Hugh Thomas, The Spanish civil war and Adam Fortunate Eagle, Alcatraz! Alcatraz!: the Indian occupation of 1969-1971 as the correct use of the "English history" tag, because they are written in the English language?

Sorry, but I can't agree.

>220 Cynfelyn: I think correct use is at best marginally relevant; the better question is anyone doing that, and (IMO) is anyone doing that as even a marginally significant use of the tag?

>216 karenb: I've known too many people who identify as Italian without their having ever lived in the legal borders of Italy to make the combination of "Italian" and "Italy" reasonable to me. I voted no.

>222 aspirit: But we aren't combining Italian and Italy, which I'm sure would be a resounding NO. The question is whether when someone says/tags 'Italian history' they mean the history of anything other than what corresponds to Italy. Most countries have a Diaspora in different parts of the world, but I don't foresee anyone using Italian history to refer to history of Italians in the US or Switzerland or Croatian history to refer to Croats in Australia

>223 SandraArdnas: When some people say "Italian history", they are talking not only the history of a country but of people spread across multiple countries. You might not have experienced that. I have. So, I voted no. You're welcome to vote differently, and perhaps explain your reasons in the appropriate thread.

>224 aspirit: If I were to explain any more reasons than I already have, I would do it here where the issue is being discussed. The idea that opposing arguments are appropriate in a different thread is ludicrous and I'll just dismiss it

>225 SandraArdnas: I thought these threads were not for arguments, but I guess that's changed.

>226 aspirit: They were never 'I post why I voted no and no one is to utter a word here', if that's what you mean.

>227 SandraArdnas: No, incredibly, a response is not inherently the same as an argument.

As a reminder, this group has an "Undecided" topic and a "Yes" topic for tag combinations and separations.

>228 aspirit:

this group has an "Undecided" topic and a "Yes" topic for tag combinations and separations.

True, but SandraArdnas isn't undecided. Also, it makes no sense to respond to someone's "I voted 'yes'" or "I voted 'no'" is a different thread. One wants others to see the response and connect it to the previous point.

>228 aspirit: Argument is in this context a logical proposition, your argument for your position, not squabbling. The entire thread is about people's arguments against a certain combination, to which sometimes people present an opposing argument. The only reason to insist that the opposing one is appropriate to another thread is if you do not consider anyone else's arguments at all. Those who consider pros and cons want the same combination discussed in one place where they can read all of them and decide for themselves or weigh in some of their own.

"1600-1775" is not the same as "1675-1676": https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/1675-1676.+Rhode+Island+%3E+History+%3E+...

"A Bear Hunt" is a short story by William Faulkner, and the tag is used only on a collection of his hunting stories.

"bear hunt" is used more broadly.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/A+Bear+Hunt#combinations

>232 lilithcat: Since I can't go into each proposal in depth, I'm always grateful when someone else does and reports.

>231 lilithcat: Still surprised that 5 people think these are the same thing.

"(CHAMP)" refers to a magazine of that name. "Champ" has a variety of other meanings.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%28CHAMP%29#combinations

Copy 2 isn't Copy 3: https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Copy+3+bound+in+a+composite+volume+-+Iri...

4 people say it is.

Sometimes punctuation matters.

the tags Gay Christianity and Gay--Christianity.

The first tag would be about the Christianity of gay people. The second would be wider - about how gays and Christianity interact.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Gay+Christianity#combinations

>238 MarthaJeanne: Honestly, I interpret either of those either way

>239 SandraArdnas: I agree

There are lots of combinations proposed including EYB. If the other tag also says EYB, fine. But there are many other meanings for EYB besides Eat Your Books.

Eligible Young Bachelor
Engage Your Brain
English Youth Ballet
...

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/not+on+EYB#combinations

and others

"Nigeria" is a noun. "Nigerian" is an adjective.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Nigerian#combinations

"The Elemental" (with quotation marks) is a short story by Frank Belknap Long. Without the quotation marks, it is a series by Shannon Mayer.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/%27The+Elemental%27#combinations

>241 MarthaJeanne: I know arguing these things is a lost cause, but the odds anyone is tagging cookbooks "notEYB" in order to mean "not English Youth Ballet" seems to be somewhere between slim and none.

>244 Stevil2001: But there is no saying whether someone might use that tag for non-cookbooks sometime.

>245 MarthaJeanne:

Yep. Better not to combine now than have to separate later.

"Dark Elements" (capitalized, no hyphen) refers to a series by that name. "dark-elements" (uncapitalized, with a hyphen) does not; it seems to be describing the contents of two books unrelated to the series.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/dark-elements#combinations

>246 lilithcat: Yes, I know. In some hypothetical future, someone could do this hypoethical thing, so we had better not make a useful tag combination now.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/luule#combinations

In Estonian, luule means poetry.

In Finnish, luule is a form of the verb that means to think or believe.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/allotments

Allotments often refers to British garden plots. That meaning matches volkstuinen.

However, allotments is a much more general word, and is particularly used in the military for amounts deducted from pay. It was also used for the USA federal policy of dividing communally held Indian tribal lands into individually owned private property. Both these meanings seem to be indicated in books that have been tagged allotments.

There are several questionable combination suggestions, some of which are at https://www.librarything.com/tag/detail/Jeremiah+Lamentations#combinations

The problem is that there are two Biblical books: Jeremiah and Lamentations. Lamentations is traditionally attributed to Jeremiah, so it is not clear if certain tags refer only to this book, or to both. Commentaries are often about both, whether or not the traditional attribution is accepted, as Lamentations is so short.

This page suggest combining Jeremiah Lamentations both with tags that are both and with tags that are 'Lamentations of Jeremiah', ie only one. I have proposed two separations for tags that are definitely both, leaving others that could mean either.

>251 MarthaJeanne:

Thanks, MarthaJeanne! That's a confusing one, and I likely would have voted "yes" without your input.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/slavar

see https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/slav

Slavar is a plural of slav in various languages. In Norwegian 'slav' means 'slave'. In Swedish 'slav' can also mean 'slav'.

>253 MarthaJeanne: I had a look at that before voting because I was suspicious too, but in Swedish when referring to Slav (persons of Slavic origin) the word modifies to slaver, not slavar. So I think the combination is safe because slavar can only relate to the slave meaning (either as a noun, or verb, same as how slave could be a noun or verb in English), in both Norwegian and Swedish.

>253 MarthaJeanne: It means slav definitely shouldn't be combined with slave though, because slav certainly is ambiguous.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/%22Cancer+ward%22

This tag almost certainly refers to Cancer Ward and not cancer ward in general. If you go to the only book with this tag, you will see several more "tags" for book titles.

https://www.librarything.com/tag/core+book and https://www.librarything.com/tag/core-Books

I originally rejected the combination of "core book" and "core-Books" on pluralization grounds, though "core book" does include "core books". But looking at those two tags, there's no conceptual overlap between the two. "core book" is roleplaying books; I'm not sure what "core-Books" is, but it's not that.

>257 prosfilaes: Yeah, the RPG use is the core rule set for the game. If you want to run that game, this is the book you need to own (or have access to). Other books aren't required but are nice to have (i.e. expansions, settings and adventures).

The other use looks to me like a reading requirement for a course, possibly school, possibly university.

>257 prosfilaes:
>though "core book" does include "core books"

Them being together may have been the reason that the new combination was suggested. I've put in separation proposals for both "core books" and "Core Books", to split these two away from "core book".