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1erwinkennythomas
Has the Golden Rule in major religions been corrupted? Fields of Blood by Karen Armstrong
3erwinkennythomas
Because it's time to reclaim our tarnished past to make things better. People could do so through compassionate living. Twelve Steps to a Compassionate Life by Karen Armstrong
4John5918
Much as I like Karen Armstrong's writings, and I have read several of her books, realistically speaking I am not going to buy those two books now, so could you give us a clue what the conversation is about?
If we're talking about reclaiming compassion, Walter Kasper's book Mercy: The Essence of the Gospel and the Key to Christian Life is worth a glance.
If we're talking about reclaiming compassion, Walter Kasper's book Mercy: The Essence of the Gospel and the Key to Christian Life is worth a glance.
5erwinkennythomas
Thanks for the suggestions. For greater insights watch on YouTube:
Karen Armstrong - Fields of Blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3-HF6-f-Wk
Karen Armstrong – Compassion in Action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-JjXyWY_Ro
Karen Armstrong - Fields of Blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3-HF6-f-Wk
Karen Armstrong – Compassion in Action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-JjXyWY_Ro
6prosfilaes
I will say there's a couple problems with the Golden Rule in practice. For one, a lot of the problems with colonialism are justified by the Golden Rule; would you rather be an uncivilized savage, or be a proper Englishman? Certainly for many proper Englishmen, the answer to that is obvious, and it was apparent that the savages were either too uneducated or too young to get to make the decision.
For another, a lot of the recent controversial court cases seem to come down to who you're applying the Golden Rule to; are you putting yourself in the shoes of the victim or criminal?
For another, a lot of the recent controversial court cases seem to come down to who you're applying the Golden Rule to; are you putting yourself in the shoes of the victim or criminal?
7John5918
>6 prosfilaes:
I wouldn't say those are problems with the Golden Rule. Rather they are examples of its misuse.
I wouldn't say those are problems with the Golden Rule. Rather they are examples of its misuse.
8margd
The Golden Rule is the principle of treating others as you want to be treated.
While a good start, I recall an argument that one should do better, by treating others as THEY wish to be treated, which is kind of what >6 prosfilaes: is saying(?)
While a good start, I recall an argument that one should do better, by treating others as THEY wish to be treated, which is kind of what >6 prosfilaes: is saying(?)
9erwinkennythomas
Like everything else people could misuse the Golden Rule and twist it to be shallow concepts of reasoning. Colonialism and what it represented were atrocious. Who would want to be enslaved and bartered for economic profits? Who in their right mind wishes to see their native culture diminished and exploited? Colonial powers never did function according to the tenets of the Golden Rule. They were obsessed with power, riches, and self-aggrandizement. If they had upheld the Golden Rule and compassionate living our world would have been a far better place.
10prosfilaes
>7 John5918: I wouldn't say those are problems with the Golden Rule. Rather they are examples of its misuse.
are you putting yourself in the shoes of the victim or criminal? is a real problem where the Golden Rule doesn't seem to help in leading to justice, or even one single answer. As an outsider, Jesus doesn't seem to have approached the idea of societal justice very much.
>9 erwinkennythomas: Who in their right mind wishes to see their native culture diminished
Anyone with tendencies that their society doesn't support; women, gay people, transpeople in many paternal societies, nerds in a society that values athleticism, warriors in a society that values pastoralism.
I find it interesting the similarities between the evangelical Christianity I grew up in and the scientific atheism I chose as a late teen. In both cases, there is truth, there is a better way, and everyone should know it. If the more tempered beliefs I've developed as I've aged are more skeptical about how well it's known, that just encourages me to see my native culture diminished in a sense, to find a better culture for all of us, to listen better while I'm explaining in what ways my culture is great.
One can bemoan native cultures being diminished, but in the modern world, the greatest danger to most cultures is internal; reservation kids not wanting to stay at home all their life, Iranians wanting to dance to western music in blue jeans, children of smaller cultures in India or China wanting to be part of a larger national culture.
Colonial powers never did function according to the tenets of the Golden Rule.
Much of the religious part of the colonial powers did act according to the tenets of the Golden Rule as they saw it. "Kill the Indian to save the man" as one American involved in Indian Affairs put it. If you see the people as worshiping demons, if you were worshiping demons, wouldn't you want to be saved from that? If you see people being sacrificed, shouldn't you save them? Things would be better if there was more compassion, but that still leaves a lot of questions about how people of two cultures should interact.
are you putting yourself in the shoes of the victim or criminal? is a real problem where the Golden Rule doesn't seem to help in leading to justice, or even one single answer. As an outsider, Jesus doesn't seem to have approached the idea of societal justice very much.
>9 erwinkennythomas: Who in their right mind wishes to see their native culture diminished
Anyone with tendencies that their society doesn't support; women, gay people, transpeople in many paternal societies, nerds in a society that values athleticism, warriors in a society that values pastoralism.
I find it interesting the similarities between the evangelical Christianity I grew up in and the scientific atheism I chose as a late teen. In both cases, there is truth, there is a better way, and everyone should know it. If the more tempered beliefs I've developed as I've aged are more skeptical about how well it's known, that just encourages me to see my native culture diminished in a sense, to find a better culture for all of us, to listen better while I'm explaining in what ways my culture is great.
One can bemoan native cultures being diminished, but in the modern world, the greatest danger to most cultures is internal; reservation kids not wanting to stay at home all their life, Iranians wanting to dance to western music in blue jeans, children of smaller cultures in India or China wanting to be part of a larger national culture.
Colonial powers never did function according to the tenets of the Golden Rule.
Much of the religious part of the colonial powers did act according to the tenets of the Golden Rule as they saw it. "Kill the Indian to save the man" as one American involved in Indian Affairs put it. If you see the people as worshiping demons, if you were worshiping demons, wouldn't you want to be saved from that? If you see people being sacrificed, shouldn't you save them? Things would be better if there was more compassion, but that still leaves a lot of questions about how people of two cultures should interact.
11erwinkennythomas
A reading of Twelve Steps to a Compassionate Life by Karen Armstrong will aptly clarify what is meant to live according to the Golden Rule and with compassion. Your examples although they may sound plausible is a far stretch from the standards of morality. For generations even some great thinkers have tried to justify wrongs that just don't measure up to ethical standards of decency. In the light of your statements just review the past history of the numerous barbaric acts committed both in the Eastern and Western world. These problems could only be addressed when people begin to treat others the way they would like to be treated, and love their enemies. This sort of love is peaceful, and is in the best interest of all humanity.
12librorumamans
>10 prosfilaes: As an outsider, Jesus doesn't seem to have approached the idea of societal justice very much.
Could you expand on this, perhaps? I don't understand your point; it may be the word 'societal' that throws me off.
. . . in the modern world, the greatest danger to most cultures is internal; reservation kids not wanting to stay at home all their life, Iranians wanting to dance to western music in blue jeans, children of smaller cultures in India or China wanting to be part of a larger national culture.
I think of these challenges as coming from outside rather than inside, principally from the dominance of Western consumer-oriented, popular culture. But I suppose I'm looking at the attraction more than those attracted.
Could you expand on this, perhaps? I don't understand your point; it may be the word 'societal' that throws me off.
. . . in the modern world, the greatest danger to most cultures is internal; reservation kids not wanting to stay at home all their life, Iranians wanting to dance to western music in blue jeans, children of smaller cultures in India or China wanting to be part of a larger national culture.
I think of these challenges as coming from outside rather than inside, principally from the dominance of Western consumer-oriented, popular culture. But I suppose I'm looking at the attraction more than those attracted.
13prosfilaes
>12 librorumamans: Could you expand on this, perhaps? I don't understand your point; it may be the word 'societal' that throws me off.
How do we treat criminals? Jesus says one thing: "let he who is without sin, throw the first stone". (I've read that that should be read in the context of Jewish law as it apply to the (missing) adulterer and adulteress, but it's been quoted widely.) It's not really a viable option to dealing with serial predators. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" doesn't provide much guidance to Caesar.
I think of these challenges as coming from outside rather than inside, principally from the dominance of Western consumer-oriented, popular culture.
There were a lot of white people apparently who decided to go Native American back in the 18th century, and a number of US converts to Buddhism and Islam, with more or less strong associated cultural changes.
It's a frequent internal desire to be part of a dominant culture. If you were Roman, and spoke Latin, you could travel around the known world and and communicate with people across that area. If you were Muslim, and spoke Arabic, you could do the same. Dominant cultures offer possibilities that smaller cultures don't. They are also often more open; they tend to accept converts and tolerate certain types of variance, and a lot of smaller cultures don't. Where there is an opportunity to change, some people will take advantage of that.
How do we treat criminals? Jesus says one thing: "let he who is without sin, throw the first stone". (I've read that that should be read in the context of Jewish law as it apply to the (missing) adulterer and adulteress, but it's been quoted widely.) It's not really a viable option to dealing with serial predators. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" doesn't provide much guidance to Caesar.
I think of these challenges as coming from outside rather than inside, principally from the dominance of Western consumer-oriented, popular culture.
There were a lot of white people apparently who decided to go Native American back in the 18th century, and a number of US converts to Buddhism and Islam, with more or less strong associated cultural changes.
It's a frequent internal desire to be part of a dominant culture. If you were Roman, and spoke Latin, you could travel around the known world and and communicate with people across that area. If you were Muslim, and spoke Arabic, you could do the same. Dominant cultures offer possibilities that smaller cultures don't. They are also often more open; they tend to accept converts and tolerate certain types of variance, and a lot of smaller cultures don't. Where there is an opportunity to change, some people will take advantage of that.
14margd
Why We Procrastinate: we think of our future selves as strangers.
Alisa Opar | January 16, 2014
...we see our future selves as strangers. Though we will inevitably share their fates, the people we will become in a decade, quarter century, or more, are unknown to us. This impedes our ability to make good choices on their—which of course is our own—behalf. ...
...Hal Hershfield, an assistant professor at New York University’s Stern School of Business and colleagues studied brain activity changes when people imagine their future and consider their present. They homed in on two areas of the brain called the medial prefrontal cortex and the rostral anterior cingulate cortex, which are more active when a subject thinks about himself than when he thinks of someone else. They found these same areas were more strongly activated when subjects thought of themselves today, than of themselves in the future. Their future self “felt” like somebody else. In fact, their neural activity when they described themselves in a decade was similar to that when they described Matt Damon or Natalie Portman. And subjects whose brain activity changed the most when they spoke about their future selves were the least likely to favor large long-term financial gains over small immediate ones.
...We might choose to procrastinate, and let some other version of our self deal with problems or chores. Or, as in the case of ... smoking boy, we can focus on that version of our self that derives pleasure, and ignore the one that pays the price.
But if procrastination or irresponsibility can derive from a poor connection to your future self, strengthening this connection may prove to be an effective remedy...presenting participants with timelines scaled to make an upcoming event, such as a paper due date, seem either very close or far off. “Using a longer timeline makes people feel more connected to their future selves,” says Wilson. That, in turn, spurred students to finish their assignment earlier, saving their end-of-semester self the stress of banging it out at the last minute.
...subjects saw either their current self, or a digitally aged image of themselves...asked how they’d spend $1,000. Those exposed to the aged photo said they’d put twice as much into a retirement account as those who saw themselves unaged.
...Of course, the way we treat our future self is not necessarily negative: Since we think of our future self as someone else, our own decision making reflects how we treat other people. Where...smoking boy endangers the health of his future self with nary a thought, others might act differently. “The thing is, we make sacrifices for people all the time,” says Hershfield. “In relationships, in marriages.” The silver lining of our dissociation from our future self, then, is that it is another reason to practice being good to others. One of them might be you.
http://nautil.us/issue/9/time/why-we-procrastinate
Alisa Opar | January 16, 2014
...we see our future selves as strangers. Though we will inevitably share their fates, the people we will become in a decade, quarter century, or more, are unknown to us. This impedes our ability to make good choices on their—which of course is our own—behalf. ...
...Hal Hershfield, an assistant professor at New York University’s Stern School of Business and colleagues studied brain activity changes when people imagine their future and consider their present. They homed in on two areas of the brain called the medial prefrontal cortex and the rostral anterior cingulate cortex, which are more active when a subject thinks about himself than when he thinks of someone else. They found these same areas were more strongly activated when subjects thought of themselves today, than of themselves in the future. Their future self “felt” like somebody else. In fact, their neural activity when they described themselves in a decade was similar to that when they described Matt Damon or Natalie Portman. And subjects whose brain activity changed the most when they spoke about their future selves were the least likely to favor large long-term financial gains over small immediate ones.
...We might choose to procrastinate, and let some other version of our self deal with problems or chores. Or, as in the case of ... smoking boy, we can focus on that version of our self that derives pleasure, and ignore the one that pays the price.
But if procrastination or irresponsibility can derive from a poor connection to your future self, strengthening this connection may prove to be an effective remedy...presenting participants with timelines scaled to make an upcoming event, such as a paper due date, seem either very close or far off. “Using a longer timeline makes people feel more connected to their future selves,” says Wilson. That, in turn, spurred students to finish their assignment earlier, saving their end-of-semester self the stress of banging it out at the last minute.
...subjects saw either their current self, or a digitally aged image of themselves...asked how they’d spend $1,000. Those exposed to the aged photo said they’d put twice as much into a retirement account as those who saw themselves unaged.
...Of course, the way we treat our future self is not necessarily negative: Since we think of our future self as someone else, our own decision making reflects how we treat other people. Where...smoking boy endangers the health of his future self with nary a thought, others might act differently. “The thing is, we make sacrifices for people all the time,” says Hershfield. “In relationships, in marriages.” The silver lining of our dissociation from our future self, then, is that it is another reason to practice being good to others. One of them might be you.
http://nautil.us/issue/9/time/why-we-procrastinate
