1John5918
People are looking for a ‘Religious Left.’ This little-known network of clergy has been organizing it. (Washington Post)
Coming from a background of Catholic Social Thought, Liberation Theology, Creation Spirituality, the gospel of the poor, social action, interfaith dialogue, and an ecumenical church in Sudan and South Sudan which, while theologically "conservative" is heavily focused on justice and peace, I always think of the church as being "left" by both definition and praxis. However I realise that in the USA things are different, and the church may be seen differently.
Any thoughts?
Coming from a background of Catholic Social Thought, Liberation Theology, Creation Spirituality, the gospel of the poor, social action, interfaith dialogue, and an ecumenical church in Sudan and South Sudan which, while theologically "conservative" is heavily focused on justice and peace, I always think of the church as being "left" by both definition and praxis. However I realise that in the USA things are different, and the church may be seen differently.
Any thoughts?
2LolaWalser
Your church discriminates against half the human species and persecutes sexual minorities so it can't be "left" by any definition and is certainly not left in practice. Every day it still aligns readily with outright fascists.
And that's just currently--the less said about history the better.
That said, I suppose we all know individual Catholics can be of leftist persuasion or vote left. But the church as a whole is demonstrably opposed to even the most watered-down understanding of what is social justice.
And that's just currently--the less said about history the better.
That said, I suppose we all know individual Catholics can be of leftist persuasion or vote left. But the church as a whole is demonstrably opposed to even the most watered-down understanding of what is social justice.
3John5918
>2 LolaWalser: the church as a whole
And therein lies the rub. What exactly is "the church as a whole"? The church is not a monolith, any more than Islam, the left and right, and indeed atheism, are monoliths.
And therein lies the rub. What exactly is "the church as a whole"? The church is not a monolith, any more than Islam, the left and right, and indeed atheism, are monoliths.
4LolaWalser
I don't really see why anyone should care whether and in what sense the church is or isn't a monolith; I think you are again saying "not everyone agrees with the Vatican", or conservatives or whatever.
5John5918
>4 LolaWalser: "not everyone agrees with the Vatican", or conservatives or whatever.
Well, yes. The church is diverse, like most other institutions.
Well, yes. The church is diverse, like most other institutions.
6LolaWalser
It's not diverse in how it treats women and sexual minorities and never has been. It's not diverse in what it teaches about women and sexual minorities.
Christianity is "diverse". Catholicism really isn't.
Christianity is "diverse". Catholicism really isn't.
8LolaWalser
>7 John5918:
Oh, please. Can't you see how patronising that is? How about you try being surprised by adopting the point of view of someone who's had patriarchal authority rammed down her throat from the second she was born. And so for billions through millennia. Thousands of years of being treated as a vessel of procreation and just about "half" the person that is the male, if that. Politically, legally a non-entity, unless and where it serves some male interest. The owned, not the owner. The eternal scapegoat and the measure of all that is evil and sinful. A handmaiden expressly designed to serve the male master. And so on--I bet you know your Bible.
I'll tell you what would surprise me--championing gender egalitarianism outside and inside the church, female priests all the way to papacy, acceptance of abortion and promotion of contraception, rejection of fascism and meddling in politics in general.
Look, John, I don't feel in the least personally hostile to you. From what I can tell we probably share a number of opinions. But I wish you'd understand how frustrating it is to see someone well-meaning time after time dismiss injustice in the name of some larger injustice or "more pressing" problem or some such. There is no larger injustice than that committed against women, nor can persecution of minorities be excused as a less pressing matter or some such, as if any one's person existence isn't as much and as whole of what they are as any other.
For the umpteenth time, women aren't an appendix to men to be dealt with separately, secondarily, at some later time, as an afterthought, as a footnote, as a side issue. Any time you are tempted to describe the church as being "left", please remember this.
Oh, please. Can't you see how patronising that is? How about you try being surprised by adopting the point of view of someone who's had patriarchal authority rammed down her throat from the second she was born. And so for billions through millennia. Thousands of years of being treated as a vessel of procreation and just about "half" the person that is the male, if that. Politically, legally a non-entity, unless and where it serves some male interest. The owned, not the owner. The eternal scapegoat and the measure of all that is evil and sinful. A handmaiden expressly designed to serve the male master. And so on--I bet you know your Bible.
I'll tell you what would surprise me--championing gender egalitarianism outside and inside the church, female priests all the way to papacy, acceptance of abortion and promotion of contraception, rejection of fascism and meddling in politics in general.
Look, John, I don't feel in the least personally hostile to you. From what I can tell we probably share a number of opinions. But I wish you'd understand how frustrating it is to see someone well-meaning time after time dismiss injustice in the name of some larger injustice or "more pressing" problem or some such. There is no larger injustice than that committed against women, nor can persecution of minorities be excused as a less pressing matter or some such, as if any one's person existence isn't as much and as whole of what they are as any other.
For the umpteenth time, women aren't an appendix to men to be dealt with separately, secondarily, at some later time, as an afterthought, as a footnote, as a side issue. Any time you are tempted to describe the church as being "left", please remember this.
9John5918
>8 LolaWalser:
I do understand what you're saying, but I still think there is a difference between the patriarchy of the Vatican or the institutional church or however you prefer to describe it, and the reality of what is going on in the lives of many ordinary Catholics, including many women that I know. I'm not dismissing injustice but pointing out that many Catholics (who are "the church" as much as the Vatican is) are doing everything they can to live their experience of Catholicism differently.
A different issue is describing things as "left". I suspect there are elements within any "leftish" institution, including explicitly communist and socialist parties, which consider women as "an appendix to men to be dealt with separately, secondarily, at some later time, as an afterthought, as a footnote, as a side issue".
So I agree with you that one cannot "time after time dismiss injustice in the name of some larger injustice or 'more pressing' problem or some such. There is no larger injustice than that committed against women, nor can persecution of minorities be excused as a less pressing matter or some such, as if any one's person existence isn't as much and as whole of what they are as any other", but I don't think that by itself constitutes a definition of "left". "Left" can be as simple as monetary policy. I don't think I have ever said that injustice against women is a lesser problem than any other injustice - I'm not disagreeing with you on that, I just don't think it is the sole criterion for the label "left" or "right".
I do understand what you're saying, but I still think there is a difference between the patriarchy of the Vatican or the institutional church or however you prefer to describe it, and the reality of what is going on in the lives of many ordinary Catholics, including many women that I know. I'm not dismissing injustice but pointing out that many Catholics (who are "the church" as much as the Vatican is) are doing everything they can to live their experience of Catholicism differently.
A different issue is describing things as "left". I suspect there are elements within any "leftish" institution, including explicitly communist and socialist parties, which consider women as "an appendix to men to be dealt with separately, secondarily, at some later time, as an afterthought, as a footnote, as a side issue".
So I agree with you that one cannot "time after time dismiss injustice in the name of some larger injustice or 'more pressing' problem or some such. There is no larger injustice than that committed against women, nor can persecution of minorities be excused as a less pressing matter or some such, as if any one's person existence isn't as much and as whole of what they are as any other", but I don't think that by itself constitutes a definition of "left". "Left" can be as simple as monetary policy. I don't think I have ever said that injustice against women is a lesser problem than any other injustice - I'm not disagreeing with you on that, I just don't think it is the sole criterion for the label "left" or "right".
10eschator83
Come on you two, admit it. The ultimate leftist goal is universal communism, thankfully blocked for the moment by the enormous problem of who could control it: unions, atheists, Christians, Catholics, women,?.
Your leftist amour seeks nothing more than the reality of control, of the whole world, of all civilizations and cultures, regardless of how you may fantasize about minor details. I doubt that you really care much about the details, as long as women or the Church have control. But communism and other socialist utopian schemes have consistently brought tragic results.
Does it mean much to either of you that God gave us freedom, and challenged us to protect it by subduing the evil, wildness, recklessness, and violence of the world?
Your leftist amour seeks nothing more than the reality of control, of the whole world, of all civilizations and cultures, regardless of how you may fantasize about minor details. I doubt that you really care much about the details, as long as women or the Church have control. But communism and other socialist utopian schemes have consistently brought tragic results.
Does it mean much to either of you that God gave us freedom, and challenged us to protect it by subduing the evil, wildness, recklessness, and violence of the world?
11MarthaJeanne
A lot of this depends on your definition of 'left'.
And any scheme that puts power in the hands of a few, left, right or centre, has consistently bought tragic results.
Which kind of freedom do you want to protect?
And any scheme that puts power in the hands of a few, left, right or centre, has consistently bought tragic results.
Which kind of freedom do you want to protect?
12John5918
>10 eschator83:
As >11 MarthaJeanne: says, it depends on your definition of "left". "Left" can mean anywhere left of centre, not just "universal communism".
Interesting that you frame this in terms of control. I don't think I have ever argued that the church should be in control. Theocracy is not part of my worldview.
As >11 MarthaJeanne: says, it depends on your definition of "left". "Left" can mean anywhere left of centre, not just "universal communism".
Interesting that you frame this in terms of control. I don't think I have ever argued that the church should be in control. Theocracy is not part of my worldview.
13margd
You Need to Take the Religious Left Seriously This Time
ZACK STANTON | 02/25/2021
The religious left is growing and already transforming the conversation about major political issues. The Rev. Dr. Serene Jones explains why now, and what comes next.
“Having been a part of the religious left my whole life, yes, it is growing. Right now, because of the pandemic, people are more open to spirituality in general.”
“My faith gives me the courage and the strength — in fact, the moral demand — that I not turn away, but actually move towards the suffering and the sins.”
“‘Christian’ has become a secondary term to give a righteous edge to your political identity. … It becomes the adjective that adds the edge of divine sanction.”
“Absolutely, I see love as political. All the people who say, ‘love thy neighbor as thyself’ … need to think deeply about what that means.”
“Some of the hardest days with respect to conflict and pain are ahead of us, as we get the space to grieve and mourn and feel the rage of what we’ve been through.”
“We’re at an inflection point like the Reformation, and we could go one way, or we could go the other.”
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/02/25/religious-left-politics-libera...
ZACK STANTON | 02/25/2021
The religious left is growing and already transforming the conversation about major political issues. The Rev. Dr. Serene Jones explains why now, and what comes next.
“Having been a part of the religious left my whole life, yes, it is growing. Right now, because of the pandemic, people are more open to spirituality in general.”
“My faith gives me the courage and the strength — in fact, the moral demand — that I not turn away, but actually move towards the suffering and the sins.”
“‘Christian’ has become a secondary term to give a righteous edge to your political identity. … It becomes the adjective that adds the edge of divine sanction.”
“Absolutely, I see love as political. All the people who say, ‘love thy neighbor as thyself’ … need to think deeply about what that means.”
“Some of the hardest days with respect to conflict and pain are ahead of us, as we get the space to grieve and mourn and feel the rage of what we’ve been through.”
“We’re at an inflection point like the Reformation, and we could go one way, or we could go the other.”
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/02/25/religious-left-politics-libera...
