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1dixiereader 
After coming on the internet ages ago and reading the liberal news every single day for years i discovered that I am very much a traditional Democrat but I am definitely not a Liberal. I came to understand why everyone hates liberals.
I hope I can speak my mind and people can be objective and consider what I say without a kneejerk reaction of calling me a bigot. For this is how I see things.
It should be no secret at this time that the parties are controlled by a bunch of rich people out of the northeast and many of the Jews who will use their money to defeat any candidate who opposes Zionism. That is where the power and the money is. If you are not from there than you are invisible and nobody cares what you think. You're just flyover.
Unfortunately all of the major left wing websites also originate out of the northeast and it cannot be denied that they have a certain cultural and political slant that makes many of us heartland Democrats feel left out and on the outside. As much as liberals like to claim the high ground and pretend that they are all for free speech and all the other good things, I discovered that you either march in lockstep or buddy you are outta there. When I have disagreed in the past I have been called a "Christian" as though that were a bad thing and something Democrats never are!
The Democratic party was once the party of the Big Tent and every four years there was chaos, debate and political fights but it was at least democratic. Today everything is staged and as far as candidates are concerned the fix is in.
In the last presidential election the old moneybags out of the Northeast gave Al Gore the boot, even though polls showed we wanted him as our candidate. Then they foist John Kerry off on us.
Whether a Liberal or a Neocon got into the White House the resulting middle east policy would be the same. Even tho millions of Democrats had marched in the streets against the middle east holocaust.
Liberals and neocons are flip sides of the same vile coin. They represent a new ruling elite. The discontent of Americans across this nation with candidates from both parties and the disapproval ratings of the White House and Congress show that liberals and neocons do not represent the beliefs of most Americans.
We have no real choice in the elections. People like Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich have no chance of being elected. There is little difference between Hilliary Clinton and Rudy G. Both support Globalization and Zionism and Americans are never allowed a free and open debate about either.
We should call ourselves progressive and Democratic. As far as I'm concerned the liberals should burn in hell along with the neocons.
I hope I can speak my mind and people can be objective and consider what I say without a kneejerk reaction of calling me a bigot. For this is how I see things.
It should be no secret at this time that the parties are controlled by a bunch of rich people out of the northeast and many of the Jews who will use their money to defeat any candidate who opposes Zionism. That is where the power and the money is. If you are not from there than you are invisible and nobody cares what you think. You're just flyover.
Unfortunately all of the major left wing websites also originate out of the northeast and it cannot be denied that they have a certain cultural and political slant that makes many of us heartland Democrats feel left out and on the outside. As much as liberals like to claim the high ground and pretend that they are all for free speech and all the other good things, I discovered that you either march in lockstep or buddy you are outta there. When I have disagreed in the past I have been called a "Christian" as though that were a bad thing and something Democrats never are!
The Democratic party was once the party of the Big Tent and every four years there was chaos, debate and political fights but it was at least democratic. Today everything is staged and as far as candidates are concerned the fix is in.
In the last presidential election the old moneybags out of the Northeast gave Al Gore the boot, even though polls showed we wanted him as our candidate. Then they foist John Kerry off on us.
Whether a Liberal or a Neocon got into the White House the resulting middle east policy would be the same. Even tho millions of Democrats had marched in the streets against the middle east holocaust.
Liberals and neocons are flip sides of the same vile coin. They represent a new ruling elite. The discontent of Americans across this nation with candidates from both parties and the disapproval ratings of the White House and Congress show that liberals and neocons do not represent the beliefs of most Americans.
We have no real choice in the elections. People like Ralph Nader or Dennis Kucinich have no chance of being elected. There is little difference between Hilliary Clinton and Rudy G. Both support Globalization and Zionism and Americans are never allowed a free and open debate about either.
We should call ourselves progressive and Democratic. As far as I'm concerned the liberals should burn in hell along with the neocons.
2bereader
Wow.
I'm new here. I did notice further down the list that there was a rather humorous discussion around September about whether liberal should stay in the title of this group. It seemed at that time that the consensus was that the title is fine.
I'm from the Midwest too, gee, some of my best friends are liberals... come to think of it, just about the only friends I have are liberals... although most of my family fall in the extreme conservative group -heavy sigh- I love them anyway.
I debated about leaving a message to this and if I had a great sense of humor, this would be a perfect place for a hugely funny moment. Oh, Jon Stewart, Please come back to us with your rapier wit and self-depreciating manner! And Stephen Colbert! Actually, Stephen would probably fit better in this situation since he is not Jewish... but then maybe Jon Stewart's humor would be the better counterpoint simply because of his background in this situation.
We need to laugh more.
I'm new here. I did notice further down the list that there was a rather humorous discussion around September about whether liberal should stay in the title of this group. It seemed at that time that the consensus was that the title is fine.
I'm from the Midwest too, gee, some of my best friends are liberals... come to think of it, just about the only friends I have are liberals... although most of my family fall in the extreme conservative group -heavy sigh- I love them anyway.
I debated about leaving a message to this and if I had a great sense of humor, this would be a perfect place for a hugely funny moment. Oh, Jon Stewart, Please come back to us with your rapier wit and self-depreciating manner! And Stephen Colbert! Actually, Stephen would probably fit better in this situation since he is not Jewish... but then maybe Jon Stewart's humor would be the better counterpoint simply because of his background in this situation.
We need to laugh more.
3maggie1944
I too am a life long liberal, strongly in favor of freedom of speech because in the market place of ideas and rational discourse much can be learned and many solutions can be discovered. Unfortunately, too many of us have forgotten the basic rules of good discussions and debate. I am hoping in this Presidential race we can listen and speak respectfully and when we have a questions about a candidate's facts or positions that we will do some research. I recommend factchecker.com (I think that is the correct name) and careful rational thinking. I am not persuaded by name calling and factless rants by any part of the political spectrum.
4lilithcat
I don't see how one can have an "open and free debate" with someone whose mind is obviously already closed. The intemperate language and anti-Semitic stereotypes in message #1 do not suggest that a high level of intellectual discourse will be forthcoming.
6stephmo
W@W.
"Open and free debate" when a) it's already understood why I'm "hated" so much; b) it is supposed that we must now insert candidates who do not run; c) zionist is trotted out; and d) how to explain to the family how Middle-Class Midwest = Rich Northeasterner.
Sorry, too much "truth" for me to take in just to participate in an "open and free" debate. I'll have to go with the traditional debates that don't start with a plate full of assumptions that I honestly thought all but died with my grandfather. Perhaps someone needs to lean more on the "progressive" portion of the group title...
"Open and free debate" when a) it's already understood why I'm "hated" so much; b) it is supposed that we must now insert candidates who do not run; c) zionist is trotted out; and d) how to explain to the family how Middle-Class Midwest = Rich Northeasterner.
Sorry, too much "truth" for me to take in just to participate in an "open and free" debate. I'll have to go with the traditional debates that don't start with a plate full of assumptions that I honestly thought all but died with my grandfather. Perhaps someone needs to lean more on the "progressive" portion of the group title...
7dixiereader
Este mensaje ha sido denunciado por varios usuarios por lo que no se muestra públicamente. (mostrar)
Well isn't this sweet. Not to mention progressive. Open minded.
You just pronouce me an anti-semite and bingo. Discussion closed. You win. Works every time.
The American Israeli Pac is one of the most powerful in Washington DC. Rahm Emanuel is the democrat who chooses party nominees. Not one person running for office dares to go against Israel and if they do they are OUT. Just like Al Gore who would NOT have taken our country into war against Iraq.
Israel has already sent a delegation to DC to lobby for the US to bomb Iran. Never mind what the American people want. I'd rather bomb Israel the little podunk terrorist engine of the world which is dragging the United States down because of Jewish power and influence in our government.
Yet you dare to label a person anti-semitic who even attempts to discuss Jews! Who do you think you are.
Please explain. How is stating the facts translated into hate against you? Is opposition to the Christian right translated into hate against Christians?
If anyone can take issue with my comments and state how you think they are wrong then you should do so because that is debate. But to accuse me of being an anti-semite is nothing more than Jewish lies and self serving propaganda and the tool they always use to get their way and prevent anyone from opposing their politics.
Americans are treated like Nazis even tho we have done nothing to Jews. Our speech and freedoms should not be conditioned upon their approval and I refuse to be silenced and quite frankly I don't give a shit if they like what I say or not. Why didn't they march in the streets when the neocons began rounding up people and locking them away. Because they were too busy reminding us to remember THE holocaust so it never happens again. Bull shit.
Given the immense power, money and influence that jews have in our government and media it is ridiculous that we cannot oppose them without being called vile names.
Suppose stephmo that you explain a few things to me if you expect me to kiss your ring simply because you are a jew and you think you are above criticism and you take license to call other free Americans vile names.
What is the difference between a Jewish state and an Aryan nation? Other than one is jewish and the other aryan of course.
Does the Constitution support the ideology of ethnic or religious states?
Does our God or our Constiution suspend the rules of right and wrong depending upon who is doing the deed?
Should I, a bigoted southerner, treat blacks the same way Jews treat Palestinians.
Should the United States of America be an Aryan Christian nation? Why? Why not?
I won't kiss your ring but you may kiss my ass. Don't dare persume to call me names again and then play the pitiful innocent victim as though you are the one being labeled and stereotyped. Merry Christmas.
You just pronouce me an anti-semite and bingo. Discussion closed. You win. Works every time.
The American Israeli Pac is one of the most powerful in Washington DC. Rahm Emanuel is the democrat who chooses party nominees. Not one person running for office dares to go against Israel and if they do they are OUT. Just like Al Gore who would NOT have taken our country into war against Iraq.
Israel has already sent a delegation to DC to lobby for the US to bomb Iran. Never mind what the American people want. I'd rather bomb Israel the little podunk terrorist engine of the world which is dragging the United States down because of Jewish power and influence in our government.
Yet you dare to label a person anti-semitic who even attempts to discuss Jews! Who do you think you are.
Please explain. How is stating the facts translated into hate against you? Is opposition to the Christian right translated into hate against Christians?
If anyone can take issue with my comments and state how you think they are wrong then you should do so because that is debate. But to accuse me of being an anti-semite is nothing more than Jewish lies and self serving propaganda and the tool they always use to get their way and prevent anyone from opposing their politics.
Americans are treated like Nazis even tho we have done nothing to Jews. Our speech and freedoms should not be conditioned upon their approval and I refuse to be silenced and quite frankly I don't give a shit if they like what I say or not. Why didn't they march in the streets when the neocons began rounding up people and locking them away. Because they were too busy reminding us to remember THE holocaust so it never happens again. Bull shit.
Given the immense power, money and influence that jews have in our government and media it is ridiculous that we cannot oppose them without being called vile names.
Suppose stephmo that you explain a few things to me if you expect me to kiss your ring simply because you are a jew and you think you are above criticism and you take license to call other free Americans vile names.
What is the difference between a Jewish state and an Aryan nation? Other than one is jewish and the other aryan of course.
Does the Constitution support the ideology of ethnic or religious states?
Does our God or our Constiution suspend the rules of right and wrong depending upon who is doing the deed?
Should I, a bigoted southerner, treat blacks the same way Jews treat Palestinians.
Should the United States of America be an Aryan Christian nation? Why? Why not?
I won't kiss your ring but you may kiss my ass. Don't dare persume to call me names again and then play the pitiful innocent victim as though you are the one being labeled and stereotyped. Merry Christmas.
8maggie1944
I don't need to call you names. Your behavior speaks volumes. Vulgar expressions are not welcome here. If you want debate, you will express yourself in a civil manner. You do not want debate, you want to spew. You'll hear no more response from me.
9dixiereader
Este mensaje ha sido denunciado por varios usuarios por lo que no se muestra públicamente. (mostrar)
Thats great Maggie. If someone doesn't walk in lockstep by all means ostrasise them and if at all possible censor them. Thats the way the progressive internet works isn't it.
As a progressive there is absolutely nothing offensive about Hillary Clinton voting to drop 500 pound bombs on Muslims because that is not considered to be anti-semtic by Jon Stewart. Who uses humor to disarm people so they don't know they are being propagandized.
We may also make vicious attacks upon Christians which is quite acceptable and reasonable. Ask Jon Stewart. Or Bill Maher.
But the day you dare to say the word "Jew". Well it simply isn't done.
How vulgar of me to tell someone to kiss my ass. If only I could learn to be elegant and simply drop hints that a person is an extremeist and should at all costs be avoided by whining that they hate me. I'm an innocent victim.
Oh I forgot. Its ok to hate people like me.
Why didn't you answer any of my questions Maggie. Perhaps they make you unconfortable and so you choose to treat me like a leper and hope that everyone else will fall in line so you don't have to deal with the issues. Coward.
What opinion is worth having if it cannot be examined. What is the difference between a rightwing dittohead and internet "liberals"? None that I can see. Talk about people already having made up their minds.
So is everyone primed to kick me out so your forum can go back to being all about liberal propaganda. You have yet to discuss any issues I've raised because you would rather engage in the, oh my, politics of personal destruction. And you call yourselves liberals.
How about if everytime someone opposes the Clintons, Hillary jumps up and whines, oh they are clinton haters and bigots. So that everyone across the nation believes that and from then on nobody is allowed to oppose the Clintons. They of course can continue to do whatever they please unopposed. Can you imagine such a senario? No because its too stupid. Well duh.
Leo Strauss the neocons' philospher taught that Jews could get rid of the old ruling elites, the white Anglo Saxon Protestants by attacking their culture, religion and history. Seems to have worked. Why don't you address this comment rather than focusing upon the person who introduced it. Lets see how much brains you have since you are so good at making judgements. We are all looking to you for your insight and wisdom regarding leo strauss and his love for revolution, chaos and continual war. What a charmer. Struass I mean.
http://www.nhinet.org/ryn18-1.htm
As a progressive there is absolutely nothing offensive about Hillary Clinton voting to drop 500 pound bombs on Muslims because that is not considered to be anti-semtic by Jon Stewart. Who uses humor to disarm people so they don't know they are being propagandized.
We may also make vicious attacks upon Christians which is quite acceptable and reasonable. Ask Jon Stewart. Or Bill Maher.
But the day you dare to say the word "Jew". Well it simply isn't done.
How vulgar of me to tell someone to kiss my ass. If only I could learn to be elegant and simply drop hints that a person is an extremeist and should at all costs be avoided by whining that they hate me. I'm an innocent victim.
Oh I forgot. Its ok to hate people like me.
Why didn't you answer any of my questions Maggie. Perhaps they make you unconfortable and so you choose to treat me like a leper and hope that everyone else will fall in line so you don't have to deal with the issues. Coward.
What opinion is worth having if it cannot be examined. What is the difference between a rightwing dittohead and internet "liberals"? None that I can see. Talk about people already having made up their minds.
So is everyone primed to kick me out so your forum can go back to being all about liberal propaganda. You have yet to discuss any issues I've raised because you would rather engage in the, oh my, politics of personal destruction. And you call yourselves liberals.
How about if everytime someone opposes the Clintons, Hillary jumps up and whines, oh they are clinton haters and bigots. So that everyone across the nation believes that and from then on nobody is allowed to oppose the Clintons. They of course can continue to do whatever they please unopposed. Can you imagine such a senario? No because its too stupid. Well duh.
Leo Strauss the neocons' philospher taught that Jews could get rid of the old ruling elites, the white Anglo Saxon Protestants by attacking their culture, religion and history. Seems to have worked. Why don't you address this comment rather than focusing upon the person who introduced it. Lets see how much brains you have since you are so good at making judgements. We are all looking to you for your insight and wisdom regarding leo strauss and his love for revolution, chaos and continual war. What a charmer. Struass I mean.
http://www.nhinet.org/ryn18-1.htm
10dixiereader
PS I just love being around people who are smart and progressive.
you may go to opensecrets.org to "follow the money". You'll be blown away by all the Christian money that flows into campaigns. We really should get Christians out of the government. Don't you think?
you may go to opensecrets.org to "follow the money". You'll be blown away by all the Christian money that flows into campaigns. We really should get Christians out of the government. Don't you think?
11stephmo
Dixie,
It's a holiday. The tin foil goes on the bird, save the last 20 minutes or so of cooking. ;-)
But to entertain, I should tell you when you say "the parties are controlled by a bunch of rich people out of the northeast and many of the Jews who will use their money to defeat any candidate who opposes Zionism," it's hard to be taken in any positive light. In that sentence alone, you separate those of a particular faith not once, but twice for emphasis - you're saying "NY LIBERAL" in the innocuous "northeast" way and just marginalize the influence of the wealthy. Your emphasis clearly rests with one group in particular - that's the perception you leave.
Oh, you may want to get the PAC name right. I'll leave it to you to research.
It's a holiday. The tin foil goes on the bird, save the last 20 minutes or so of cooking. ;-)
But to entertain, I should tell you when you say "the parties are controlled by a bunch of rich people out of the northeast and many of the Jews who will use their money to defeat any candidate who opposes Zionism," it's hard to be taken in any positive light. In that sentence alone, you separate those of a particular faith not once, but twice for emphasis - you're saying "NY LIBERAL" in the innocuous "northeast" way and just marginalize the influence of the wealthy. Your emphasis clearly rests with one group in particular - that's the perception you leave.
Oh, you may want to get the PAC name right. I'll leave it to you to research.
12RoboSchro
Dixiereader: can I suggest that you may have misunderstood the type of community that we have here? This isn't, in general, a place for confrontation and aggressiveness.
In your first post alone, you say: "everyone hates liberals"; "liberals and neocons are ... vile"; and "liberals should burn in hell". This in a group forum expressly for the exploration of shared ideas.
Now, it may be that there are sound bases for some of your assertions. I don't particularly agree with them myself, but that's neither here nor there. Your tone is overly aggressive, and you come across as wanting to pick a fight.
There are plenty of places on the internet where you can do that. LibraryThing isn't intended to be such a place. You'd get a better response if you realised this.
In your first post alone, you say: "everyone hates liberals"; "liberals and neocons are ... vile"; and "liberals should burn in hell". This in a group forum expressly for the exploration of shared ideas.
Now, it may be that there are sound bases for some of your assertions. I don't particularly agree with them myself, but that's neither here nor there. Your tone is overly aggressive, and you come across as wanting to pick a fight.
There are plenty of places on the internet where you can do that. LibraryThing isn't intended to be such a place. You'd get a better response if you realised this.
13geneg
You might even find some who agree with you. But bullying and name calling isn't how we do it. Show us what you want us to know. Convince us you have an argument to make. Maybe you need to re-frame it. Don't make it a rant because it's a very unpopular argument, but show us some rational information that might lead us to believe what you say.
14BGP
"I hope I can speak my mind and people can be objective and consider what I say without a kneejerk reaction of calling me a bigot." -dixie
Unfortunately, dixie, that is the term of choice for individuals who issue blanket condemnations of individuals of a specific ethnicity or religious affiliation. As of now, your rhetoric clearly demonstrates that you invest more in your contempt for the Jewish people (both Israeli and American) than you do in supporting the Palestinian cause and/or the success of a pluralistic form of progressivism. That is both unfortunate and transgressive, not progressive.
As for the rest of your argument, well, let's just say that your positions are contradictory at best (e.g., you regale in the purportedly "Big Tent"--but really white/male/semi-secular Christian--past of the Democratic Party, and at the same time condemn the cause of Liberalism--a philosophy which virtually all of the key Democrats championed throughout the 20th Century).
And, seriously now, how many progressives continue to champion the cause or even geographical identification of Dixie?
Unfortunately, dixie, that is the term of choice for individuals who issue blanket condemnations of individuals of a specific ethnicity or religious affiliation. As of now, your rhetoric clearly demonstrates that you invest more in your contempt for the Jewish people (both Israeli and American) than you do in supporting the Palestinian cause and/or the success of a pluralistic form of progressivism. That is both unfortunate and transgressive, not progressive.
As for the rest of your argument, well, let's just say that your positions are contradictory at best (e.g., you regale in the purportedly "Big Tent"--but really white/male/semi-secular Christian--past of the Democratic Party, and at the same time condemn the cause of Liberalism--a philosophy which virtually all of the key Democrats championed throughout the 20th Century).
And, seriously now, how many progressives continue to champion the cause or even geographical identification of Dixie?
15BGP
I might be wrong, but I cannot help but suspect that you are really a right-wing white Christian populist or a fellow traveler of one of the many offshoots of the "hard" and "far" left--not a genuine progressive who supports any version of pluralism.
16dixiereader
Is it ok to say "right-wing white Christian populist" or is that not issuing "blanket condemnations of individuals of a specific ethnicity or religious affiliation"? Its hard to keep up with all the double standards.
Its ok to call me an anti-semite but I mustn't judge the old liberal moneybags or their ardent supporters for foisting John Kerry off on us even tho his agenda was bombing the hell out of innocent Muslims who could not defend themsevles from the world's only military superpower. Forgive me for being miffed. Its only because the double standards are making my brain cells ditsy.
Its such an experience to be lectured by liberals about agression, morals and how things are done. Thanks for giving me a heads up on what the democratic party stands for and what it has traditionally represented. I thought blacks and others were always a part of the big tent. Silly me. Just look how much better off they are under liberals. (Don;t worry about Arabs or Palestinians/ their the new niggers under liberal leadership)
I certainly hope that from this day forward I can figure out how to be a good liberal so I can stay within the confines of what it means to be a democrat in good standing. God forbid I sound like a Christian. Populism! Populism bad. What does the populace know? Jon Stewart will be my Bible from now on.
Never will I utter one question regarding the integrity of Rahm Emanuel. Lets elect him President. Don't worry, we will whenever the moneybags decide its time. We can make Wolf the Jerulsalem Post Blitzer Vice President after Cheney kicks the bucket. We don't need no stinkin Christian populaism! what was I thinking.
Lets discuss the greatest issues confronting America today. Gee it must be health care. Well forget that, since all of our money is flowing to the middle east. It must be education - opps forget that too, no money.
Besides Christian soldiers don't need no stinking education - if they were educated they might ask pesky questions about picking up a gun and slaughtering people who have never done one thing to America. They might be aggressive and uncouth askers of questions and those people are intolerable. Ask Ms Manners.
What oh what is the greatest threat to America today. Shit. I can't think of any problems. Maybe I'll find a book that can tell me so I'll know what to work on. In the meantime I can just watch Jon Stewart and have fun.
Maybe I'll read a book.
Maybe I'll be a humanitarian and send a book to someone incarerated at Gitmo. I'll lecture him on what a bad person he is and how correct we are to lock him away without due American process.
I'll explain to him the history of America and how bad white Christians have been for the world and how lucky we are today that the party is not run by a bunch of old white anglo saxon protestants. I'll tell him how he finds himself in Gitmo because he is an enemy of America then I'll ask him to explain why he hates us. (who in their right mind could hate a liberal / my god these people are for progressive stuff)
Maybe I'll ask him to give his thoughts about the United States Consitution and the transformation it has gone thur since the nice liberals and neocons are running the country and the bad old white anglo saxon protestants have been put in their bigoted places.
Why don't you give that question a go Mr BGP.
Its ok to call me an anti-semite but I mustn't judge the old liberal moneybags or their ardent supporters for foisting John Kerry off on us even tho his agenda was bombing the hell out of innocent Muslims who could not defend themsevles from the world's only military superpower. Forgive me for being miffed. Its only because the double standards are making my brain cells ditsy.
Its such an experience to be lectured by liberals about agression, morals and how things are done. Thanks for giving me a heads up on what the democratic party stands for and what it has traditionally represented. I thought blacks and others were always a part of the big tent. Silly me. Just look how much better off they are under liberals. (Don;t worry about Arabs or Palestinians/ their the new niggers under liberal leadership)
I certainly hope that from this day forward I can figure out how to be a good liberal so I can stay within the confines of what it means to be a democrat in good standing. God forbid I sound like a Christian. Populism! Populism bad. What does the populace know? Jon Stewart will be my Bible from now on.
Never will I utter one question regarding the integrity of Rahm Emanuel. Lets elect him President. Don't worry, we will whenever the moneybags decide its time. We can make Wolf the Jerulsalem Post Blitzer Vice President after Cheney kicks the bucket. We don't need no stinkin Christian populaism! what was I thinking.
Lets discuss the greatest issues confronting America today. Gee it must be health care. Well forget that, since all of our money is flowing to the middle east. It must be education - opps forget that too, no money.
Besides Christian soldiers don't need no stinking education - if they were educated they might ask pesky questions about picking up a gun and slaughtering people who have never done one thing to America. They might be aggressive and uncouth askers of questions and those people are intolerable. Ask Ms Manners.
What oh what is the greatest threat to America today. Shit. I can't think of any problems. Maybe I'll find a book that can tell me so I'll know what to work on. In the meantime I can just watch Jon Stewart and have fun.
Maybe I'll read a book.
Maybe I'll be a humanitarian and send a book to someone incarerated at Gitmo. I'll lecture him on what a bad person he is and how correct we are to lock him away without due American process.
I'll explain to him the history of America and how bad white Christians have been for the world and how lucky we are today that the party is not run by a bunch of old white anglo saxon protestants. I'll tell him how he finds himself in Gitmo because he is an enemy of America then I'll ask him to explain why he hates us. (who in their right mind could hate a liberal / my god these people are for progressive stuff)
Maybe I'll ask him to give his thoughts about the United States Consitution and the transformation it has gone thur since the nice liberals and neocons are running the country and the bad old white anglo saxon protestants have been put in their bigoted places.
Why don't you give that question a go Mr BGP.
17dixiereader
Este mensaje fue borrado por su autor.
18geneg
dixiereader, if you don't learn to modulate your voice, this may well be the last time someone responds to your rant. Not because we don't want to discuss your points, but because YOU don't want to discuss them.
BTW, the bad old white anglo saxon protestants are why our country faces such trying times. But, you don't want to know why I say that, so I won't bother.
BTW, the bad old white anglo saxon protestants are why our country faces such trying times. But, you don't want to know why I say that, so I won't bother.
19BGP
"Is it ok to say "right-wing white Christian populist" or is that not issuing "blanket condemnations of individuals of a specific ethnicity or religious affiliation"? Its hard to keep up with all the double standards." -dixie
It is not a condemnation, it is a form of classification which specifically calls into question your progressive credentials, and nothing else. I am not allocating blame, I am merely identifying a specific political movement which is opposed to pluralism--and the overwhelming majority of American progressives consider opposition to pluralism to be transgressive.
I never called you an anti-Semite, for the term, in its most frequent usage, is a misnomer. However, you clearly do possess: a) an obsession with the supposed plight of "old white anglo saxon protestants" (who are, of course, a significant segment of the most heavily represented community in the House, the Senate, all of the Governorships, all of the board rooms of Corporate America, etc.); and b) a need to blame specific Jewish individuals and organizations for all of the troubles in the world. If nothing else, that is not the rhetoric of a progressive.
A large number of us disagree with a multitude of Israeli policies, as well as American Foreign policy in general. A significant number of us consider ourselves to be something other than "liberal." And yet, there is no doubt in my mind that you will find many more friends in the Political Conservatives forum than you will find here.
Your Christian and populist vision of the Democratic Party died when the majority of the Party embraced pluralism, and the overwhelming majority of the white South formally quit the party (in favor a Republican party which was much more receptive to the views of the South).
Those of us who champion pluralism have said good riddance to that era. We will cede no ground to you and your ilk.
It is not a condemnation, it is a form of classification which specifically calls into question your progressive credentials, and nothing else. I am not allocating blame, I am merely identifying a specific political movement which is opposed to pluralism--and the overwhelming majority of American progressives consider opposition to pluralism to be transgressive.
I never called you an anti-Semite, for the term, in its most frequent usage, is a misnomer. However, you clearly do possess: a) an obsession with the supposed plight of "old white anglo saxon protestants" (who are, of course, a significant segment of the most heavily represented community in the House, the Senate, all of the Governorships, all of the board rooms of Corporate America, etc.); and b) a need to blame specific Jewish individuals and organizations for all of the troubles in the world. If nothing else, that is not the rhetoric of a progressive.
A large number of us disagree with a multitude of Israeli policies, as well as American Foreign policy in general. A significant number of us consider ourselves to be something other than "liberal." And yet, there is no doubt in my mind that you will find many more friends in the Political Conservatives forum than you will find here.
Your Christian and populist vision of the Democratic Party died when the majority of the Party embraced pluralism, and the overwhelming majority of the white South formally quit the party (in favor a Republican party which was much more receptive to the views of the South).
Those of us who champion pluralism have said good riddance to that era. We will cede no ground to you and your ilk.
20dixiereader
If you champion pluralism doesn't that mean that you would include people such as myself who are different. Does pluralism specifically include everyone except me.
How can you have pluralism and yet have the consent of the people. Isn't pluralism just a bunch of different groups with each seeking its own interests.
Are Christians supposed to get a say in government because they are a specific pluralist group or is it just jews who get that.
Why should your interests take precedent over mine. Who elected you to determine the definition of the Democratic party. Are each puralist entity equal or are some more equal than others.
Who is it that leads the pluralist country? It has to be someone from an individual interest group since it can't be someone who is made up of pluralism because an entity representing plurlism would be a single entity. Example "one from many".
So which group does your leader represent? Do you go along with this leader even if he/she represents another interest group as opposed to the one you belong to.
As you have pointed out. White Anglo Saxon Protestants have been deposed in favor of another pluralist group. How does pluralism in any way include white anglo saxon protestants. Are we just suppossed to be here but we are not to speak until spoken to. How does pluralism work. What if anglos get upset at being disposed and seek to get back in.
Was it wrong for anglos to dispose blacks and take power for themselves. How do you justify disposing WASPs and putting in someone else. Are we allowed to invoke political correctness and demand that we get good jobs or a college education as token WASPs.
How can you have pluralism and yet have the consent of the people. Isn't pluralism just a bunch of different groups with each seeking its own interests.
Are Christians supposed to get a say in government because they are a specific pluralist group or is it just jews who get that.
Why should your interests take precedent over mine. Who elected you to determine the definition of the Democratic party. Are each puralist entity equal or are some more equal than others.
Who is it that leads the pluralist country? It has to be someone from an individual interest group since it can't be someone who is made up of pluralism because an entity representing plurlism would be a single entity. Example "one from many".
So which group does your leader represent? Do you go along with this leader even if he/she represents another interest group as opposed to the one you belong to.
As you have pointed out. White Anglo Saxon Protestants have been deposed in favor of another pluralist group. How does pluralism in any way include white anglo saxon protestants. Are we just suppossed to be here but we are not to speak until spoken to. How does pluralism work. What if anglos get upset at being disposed and seek to get back in.
Was it wrong for anglos to dispose blacks and take power for themselves. How do you justify disposing WASPs and putting in someone else. Are we allowed to invoke political correctness and demand that we get good jobs or a college education as token WASPs.
21dixiereader
Scratching my head. Light bulb. It occurs to me that perhaps diversity isn't working. At least not for all of us.
If its every man for himself than how well do you think your group is doing. How well is your group doing according to the liberals. Just relax, you're doing great. Trust me.
If its every man for himself than how well do you think your group is doing. How well is your group doing according to the liberals. Just relax, you're doing great. Trust me.
22dchaikin
#20 - "If you champion pluralism doesn't that mean that you would include people such as myself who are different. " - I don't mean to speak for BGP, but, by definition, yes it does include people who are different. But, pluralism also implies tolerance for other religions, philosophies etc. I can't vouch for your tolerance.
pluralism: A conviction that various religious, ethnic, racial, and political groups should be allowed to thrive in a single society. (See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pluralism )
pluralism: A conviction that various religious, ethnic, racial, and political groups should be allowed to thrive in a single society. (See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pluralism )
23dixiereader
Thanks dchaikin. I am happy to know that you are willing to cede ground to me and my ilk. And thanks to all the liberals for setting a great example for the rest of us. I am blown away by your tolerance of Christianty and Islam. Thanks for treating us with great respect and allowing us a voice in government. Jon Stewart and Bill Maher are great examples that you don't just talk the talk.
Pluralism is a wonderful thing. Especially as it is interpeted by liberals. It is possible to have a nation of many from one and make it work. You should be proud.
Pluralism is a wonderful thing. Especially as it is interpeted by liberals. It is possible to have a nation of many from one and make it work. You should be proud.
24dchaikin
#23 What is with the attack? And, why are you putting words into my post that aren't there? Anyway, let's be clear, I haven't ceded anything to you, I haven't even stated my a personal stance to cede ground on! I have questioned your tolerance. Feel free to respond to this, or to ignore it.
25stephmo
#24 I'd just stop responding. He's clearly decided that there's a conspiracy out to get him and was hoping that he'd get converts because it all makes sense in his mind.
At 55 books logged, a free account, no reviews, no tags, no additional profile information beyond what's automatically filled in, and only this group subscribed to, I think we all know what this is.
At 55 books logged, a free account, no reviews, no tags, no additional profile information beyond what's automatically filled in, and only this group subscribed to, I think we all know what this is.
27geneg
For those who may have seen the deleted message, I apologize. It was ill-thought out, and the result of an abiding sense of frustration at the good questions dixiereader asks, but his inability to ask them in a form other than a rant, which is off-putting to the max.
Being someone who NEVER rants, I just don't understand why someone who wishes to engage these questions in a forum like this thinks he is going to sway any of us if his best tactical move is to smear everyone he can without making any ARGUMENTS.
I actually saw a message from dixiereader in another thread in which he seemed calmer and actually had something to say. More instances of this, and he may get some action.
So, for my intemperate words, I apologize. I think I will continue to read dixiereader in hopes he continues to calm down and joins in the swing of things here.
Why indeed is every disagreement with Israel's interests in the world greeted with cries of "Anti-Semitism"? Can it be dixiereader is correct and America has been manipulated by Israel into believing our interests are one and the same? Is it anti-Semitic to believe this? Why do we agonize over every bus stop blown up, every pizza parlor destroyed, or every Israeli dead, while we cheer on the bulldozers, provide money to build a dividing wall, the oppression of Palestinians with systems and mechanisms crafted in Europe over the last 1500 years, the murder of protesters, and the active manipulation of the politics of Palestine with the aim of keeping the Palestinians at each others throats, while silencing moderate voices. If Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, why do they disenfranchise Palestinians by keeping them from returning to their homes from exile and refuge? Is it because if every person older than 21 living in the Holy Land were allowed to vote they would find themselves on their knees at the hands of their enemies? Democracy, pshaw. This is Greek democracy, not enlightened democracy.
There are thousands of undiscussed questions regarding Israel as an actor in the world, in its region and in the halls of power in America.
To run from these questions, shouting "Anti-Semitism" IS to squelch debate. Anytime we shout down reasonable debate with unreasonable responses we harm America, we deny what makes us Americans, and we knock one more brick from the wall of freedom.
dixiereader has some interesting points, he just needs to find a different voice.
At present, Israel is a nation living with a siege mentality, attempting to steal land that does not belong to them, and using the US as an unending source of unquestioning support and money. Is continued, unquestioning support of Israel in America's best interest? Why can that question not be discussed rationally, as if it were asked of Russia or China?
Being someone who NEVER rants, I just don't understand why someone who wishes to engage these questions in a forum like this thinks he is going to sway any of us if his best tactical move is to smear everyone he can without making any ARGUMENTS.
I actually saw a message from dixiereader in another thread in which he seemed calmer and actually had something to say. More instances of this, and he may get some action.
So, for my intemperate words, I apologize. I think I will continue to read dixiereader in hopes he continues to calm down and joins in the swing of things here.
Why indeed is every disagreement with Israel's interests in the world greeted with cries of "Anti-Semitism"? Can it be dixiereader is correct and America has been manipulated by Israel into believing our interests are one and the same? Is it anti-Semitic to believe this? Why do we agonize over every bus stop blown up, every pizza parlor destroyed, or every Israeli dead, while we cheer on the bulldozers, provide money to build a dividing wall, the oppression of Palestinians with systems and mechanisms crafted in Europe over the last 1500 years, the murder of protesters, and the active manipulation of the politics of Palestine with the aim of keeping the Palestinians at each others throats, while silencing moderate voices. If Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, why do they disenfranchise Palestinians by keeping them from returning to their homes from exile and refuge? Is it because if every person older than 21 living in the Holy Land were allowed to vote they would find themselves on their knees at the hands of their enemies? Democracy, pshaw. This is Greek democracy, not enlightened democracy.
There are thousands of undiscussed questions regarding Israel as an actor in the world, in its region and in the halls of power in America.
To run from these questions, shouting "Anti-Semitism" IS to squelch debate. Anytime we shout down reasonable debate with unreasonable responses we harm America, we deny what makes us Americans, and we knock one more brick from the wall of freedom.
dixiereader has some interesting points, he just needs to find a different voice.
At present, Israel is a nation living with a siege mentality, attempting to steal land that does not belong to them, and using the US as an unending source of unquestioning support and money. Is continued, unquestioning support of Israel in America's best interest? Why can that question not be discussed rationally, as if it were asked of Russia or China?
28maggie1944
I am not well informed in the politics of Israel, U.S., Palestine, etc. because I am very frustrated by the complexity of it and the overwhelmning feeling of futility. However, I have heard little piece of news which indicates less monolithic characterizations of all the actors. I do know there are citizens of Israel who do not support their government's actions toward the Palestinians. I do know there are Palestinians who do not believe that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. I also know that many, many of the seemingly unsolvable problems in this world today are the heretige of the actions of European explorers, traders, and corporations throughout the last few centuries. But, as in personal relations, blame pointing seldom points to solutions or peace.
So I don't see all of Israel with a siege mentality. I have seen attempts at peaceful actions. I also don't see the U.S. as an unending source of unquestioning support. I do believe an end is in site when the U.S. economy has to deal with the realities of globalism and is no longer the great engine of world domination. Not that I want that real soon, but I am guessing that will be on our horizon.
OK, enough from my position of relative ignorance and only some paying attention. However, please hear me well. I enjoy the discussion when it is civil and participants appear to be seeking understanding and truth. Hopefully, we can find some.
So I don't see all of Israel with a siege mentality. I have seen attempts at peaceful actions. I also don't see the U.S. as an unending source of unquestioning support. I do believe an end is in site when the U.S. economy has to deal with the realities of globalism and is no longer the great engine of world domination. Not that I want that real soon, but I am guessing that will be on our horizon.
OK, enough from my position of relative ignorance and only some paying attention. However, please hear me well. I enjoy the discussion when it is civil and participants appear to be seeking understanding and truth. Hopefully, we can find some.
29weener
I'm also not as informed as I could be about the politics of Israel/Palestine, but I definitely lean towards the side of Palestine here. However, unlike dixie, I don't have anything against Jewish people as a group and I won't conflate the politics of Israeli government with every Jewish person in the world.
I think that one of the reasons that criticism of the Israeli state is frowned upon here in America is that it was established by a religious minority looking for a new beginning, one which didn't happen to mind that it displaced/killed many, many other humans in its quest for a homeland. Sound familiar? Being critical of that could amount to being critical of our glorious America, whose existence as we know it is based on genocide and theft.
I think that one of the reasons that criticism of the Israeli state is frowned upon here in America is that it was established by a religious minority looking for a new beginning, one which didn't happen to mind that it displaced/killed many, many other humans in its quest for a homeland. Sound familiar? Being critical of that could amount to being critical of our glorious America, whose existence as we know it is based on genocide and theft.
30modalursine
The "prisoner's dilema" occurs when two "crooks" can both escape punishment if they both keep quiet; but if one sqeals, the sqealer gets a token punishment and the sqlealee gets a harsh sentence.
Clearly its best to observe the law of omerto, but second best is to rat out your buddy before he has a chance to rat you out.
Game theory , a branch of mathematics as everyone knows, has weighed in on the optimal strategy which wins most (or loses least) over the long run. It is to offer to be cooperative (Stay mum) and to prefer being cooperative, but to instantly rat out anyone who has ratted you out in previous games. I think the strategy is called "Fair but firm" or maybe "tit for tat".
Which brings us to the case of dixiereader.
Actually, I agree with him that no topic should be taboo.
I agree that the proper stance of the US towards the state of Israel ...a discussion of what is and what is not in the interest of the US, among other considerations, is a legitimate topic.
I agree that one can disagree with the Likud or with any goverment in power in Israel without being ipso facto an anti-semite.
I'll go further. I believe one can discuss the wizdom, ethics, efficacy, or any other aspect of the whole idea behind the Zionism as a social and political movement, whithout ipso facto being an antisemite. Until '48 most Jews in the world were not Zionist and many were openly anti-zionist.
I believe also that the charge of anti-semitism is a club often used indiscriminately by pro Isreal lobbyists and by supporters of Likud and other
"conservative" elements within zionism to chill legitimate debate and dissent.
I believe that not everyone who may appear on the surface to be an odious little antisemitic troll really is one: Maybe the person is awkward at self expression, or unaware of how the certain words and formulations will be taken by those of us who have reason to be alert to such things, or is just plain misinformed on some key issue, or has unconsiously breathed in some antisemitic phraseolgy or assumptions from the surrounding culture.
But there comes a point where cooperation, looking for the bright side, being a cockeyed optimist turns from being an invitation to cooperation to an invitation for being made a patsy.
The man is a troll by day and a troll by night. A troll in his going out and in his comming in, A troll in his rising up and in his lying down. Let us nevermore comfort or acknowlege him and may his name be erased from under the heavens.
Lights out.
Clearly its best to observe the law of omerto, but second best is to rat out your buddy before he has a chance to rat you out.
Game theory , a branch of mathematics as everyone knows, has weighed in on the optimal strategy which wins most (or loses least) over the long run. It is to offer to be cooperative (Stay mum) and to prefer being cooperative, but to instantly rat out anyone who has ratted you out in previous games. I think the strategy is called "Fair but firm" or maybe "tit for tat".
Which brings us to the case of dixiereader.
Actually, I agree with him that no topic should be taboo.
I agree that the proper stance of the US towards the state of Israel ...a discussion of what is and what is not in the interest of the US, among other considerations, is a legitimate topic.
I agree that one can disagree with the Likud or with any goverment in power in Israel without being ipso facto an anti-semite.
I'll go further. I believe one can discuss the wizdom, ethics, efficacy, or any other aspect of the whole idea behind the Zionism as a social and political movement, whithout ipso facto being an antisemite. Until '48 most Jews in the world were not Zionist and many were openly anti-zionist.
I believe also that the charge of anti-semitism is a club often used indiscriminately by pro Isreal lobbyists and by supporters of Likud and other
"conservative" elements within zionism to chill legitimate debate and dissent.
I believe that not everyone who may appear on the surface to be an odious little antisemitic troll really is one: Maybe the person is awkward at self expression, or unaware of how the certain words and formulations will be taken by those of us who have reason to be alert to such things, or is just plain misinformed on some key issue, or has unconsiously breathed in some antisemitic phraseolgy or assumptions from the surrounding culture.
But there comes a point where cooperation, looking for the bright side, being a cockeyed optimist turns from being an invitation to cooperation to an invitation for being made a patsy.
The man is a troll by day and a troll by night. A troll in his going out and in his comming in, A troll in his rising up and in his lying down. Let us nevermore comfort or acknowlege him and may his name be erased from under the heavens.
Lights out.
31dixiereader
A few comments and I will attempt to be as kind and calm as I can in making them.
This is a "liberal" forum. The liberal leadership fully and aggressively supports Israel and no opposition is tolerated. Obama keeps coming out with vigorous support for Israel. Which candidate will you support? Kucinich and Gravel are the only ones who refuse to support Zionism and look at how they are made into clowns by the media. Democrats have a real problem.
I thank you and I congratulate you for at least opening your minds and not tossing me out of this forum which is usually what happens.
That may account for my vicious attitude but in no way does it justify it. I'm sorry for being so hostile. but you should try to make these arguments at some liberal website and see for yourselves what it is like.
modalursine the trolls are the liberals who insist on stopping all discussion and debate and demanding that Democrats all march in lockstep behind them.
Christians are expected to deal with the Christian right and be able to oppose them. I oppose them politically. Why can't you oppose Zionism. If you don't oppose it then how do you justify it. How is it right for Jews to do to Palestinians what the Nazis did to them. We stopped the Nazis so why shouldn't we own our own American souls and be able to stop the Zionists.
I've heard stories all my life about my family's sacrifices to stop Nazis and Christians in this nation do not deserve to be told that we were fools to oppose an Aryan nation because now we are being suckered into securing a Jewish state.
I am always being told "not all Jews" but then I encounter a liberal such as yourself. It makes it very hard to believe that there are truly Jews out there who have fully assimilated into America and consider themsleves American Jews rather than Jews first last and always.
This is what bothers me. The Jews who own the liberal websites and who ditate that people must love blacks and other minorites and that America must be diverse and then they turn around and expect Americans to support Israel.
You can't have it both ways. Americans and Demcrats should not have to put up with this attitude. What am I supposed to feel about Jon Stewart and others like him who become so popular and who are the opnion makers who propagandize our children to think in certain terms which always make Jews above everyone else. It is not right what Jews are doing. We have every right to oppose their politics. What right do you have to look down your nose at me? I am defending the principles that Jews claim to represent when they remember the holocaust.
The last point is that Israel is NOT a democracy. Thats another blatent lie. Israel is an Ethnocracy.
At one time reference.com used one state to explain the meaning of an ethnocracy. Israel. But what happens in situations such as that? Jews immediately begin to label people as anti-semites and people cave so that now Israel is not even mentioned under the definition of ethnocracy at reference.com.
That is power. but they won't have that power if people stand up to them as we should. Science teaches that force must be met with equal force.
Americans have no idea that we are a declining power and that Globalization will change everything. The neocons are escalating our destruction. They couldn't care less about the United States. So the question arises. What does Hillary represent. Obama. All the rest of them. They are bought and paid for.
When "liberals" give us these candidates you must not follow. You must rebel. The liberals and neocons are flip sides of the same coin. They are destroying us.
I hope that was civil. I meant it to be and I was only trying to make my points.
This is a "liberal" forum. The liberal leadership fully and aggressively supports Israel and no opposition is tolerated. Obama keeps coming out with vigorous support for Israel. Which candidate will you support? Kucinich and Gravel are the only ones who refuse to support Zionism and look at how they are made into clowns by the media. Democrats have a real problem.
I thank you and I congratulate you for at least opening your minds and not tossing me out of this forum which is usually what happens.
That may account for my vicious attitude but in no way does it justify it. I'm sorry for being so hostile. but you should try to make these arguments at some liberal website and see for yourselves what it is like.
modalursine the trolls are the liberals who insist on stopping all discussion and debate and demanding that Democrats all march in lockstep behind them.
Christians are expected to deal with the Christian right and be able to oppose them. I oppose them politically. Why can't you oppose Zionism. If you don't oppose it then how do you justify it. How is it right for Jews to do to Palestinians what the Nazis did to them. We stopped the Nazis so why shouldn't we own our own American souls and be able to stop the Zionists.
I've heard stories all my life about my family's sacrifices to stop Nazis and Christians in this nation do not deserve to be told that we were fools to oppose an Aryan nation because now we are being suckered into securing a Jewish state.
I am always being told "not all Jews" but then I encounter a liberal such as yourself. It makes it very hard to believe that there are truly Jews out there who have fully assimilated into America and consider themsleves American Jews rather than Jews first last and always.
This is what bothers me. The Jews who own the liberal websites and who ditate that people must love blacks and other minorites and that America must be diverse and then they turn around and expect Americans to support Israel.
You can't have it both ways. Americans and Demcrats should not have to put up with this attitude. What am I supposed to feel about Jon Stewart and others like him who become so popular and who are the opnion makers who propagandize our children to think in certain terms which always make Jews above everyone else. It is not right what Jews are doing. We have every right to oppose their politics. What right do you have to look down your nose at me? I am defending the principles that Jews claim to represent when they remember the holocaust.
The last point is that Israel is NOT a democracy. Thats another blatent lie. Israel is an Ethnocracy.
At one time reference.com used one state to explain the meaning of an ethnocracy. Israel. But what happens in situations such as that? Jews immediately begin to label people as anti-semites and people cave so that now Israel is not even mentioned under the definition of ethnocracy at reference.com.
That is power. but they won't have that power if people stand up to them as we should. Science teaches that force must be met with equal force.
Americans have no idea that we are a declining power and that Globalization will change everything. The neocons are escalating our destruction. They couldn't care less about the United States. So the question arises. What does Hillary represent. Obama. All the rest of them. They are bought and paid for.
When "liberals" give us these candidates you must not follow. You must rebel. The liberals and neocons are flip sides of the same coin. They are destroying us.
I hope that was civil. I meant it to be and I was only trying to make my points.
32geneg
Good Job, dixiereader!! Keep working on developing the voice of your last post and you will be more than welcome, at least by me. I, too, believe in open and free debate. We attack and uphold Ideas, not people. I agree Obama and Clinton represent business as usual. But I don't believe this is a result of Israeli support as much as it is that they don't believe they can be elected without espousing the Israel as victim line. A much more cynical and ultimately more dangerous view.
The issue is where one's true loyalty lies. If it is Israel, then that person is effectively an agent of a foreign country. If it is America, and the person happens to be Jewish, then they are free to develop themselves as they will within the limits of the law.
One reason Jews are at the center of American and European wealth, as well as opinion is that as a group they value education as one of the few doors open to them. This stems from their experience in Europe when the only profession open to the Jews was providing intellectual and real capital for the engines of commerce that helped usher in Modernism.
I suspect to a certain degree what dixiereader says regarding the media has some validity, but not as a matter of some grand Jewish conspiracy as much as that the movers and shakers in the media are now and always have been, Jewish. Movies, radio, and television were full of Jews for one reason: entertainment has always been open to Jews. Vaudeville, which is where many of the early radio and television personalities came from was filled with Jews. The movie moguls, a position open to Jews, created the movies and, like most objects of discrimination tended to stick together.
Most, not all, most Jews in entertainment are liberals, mostly by temperament and education. The history of Jews in America as targets for discrimination is another reason for their liberalism. I believe this liberalism is what drives their support for Israel, just as this same liberalism drives the same support for many non-Jewish Americans. The problem is that we are seeing both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian issue from a more or less unbiased view, now. The tragedy of Palestine becomes clearer and clearer as time goes by and this is breaking down the view that Israel is the sufferer here. The Palestinians are engendering a sense of being wronged in all this, while Israel takes on a more monolithic appearance (which is false) as the jailers of the Palestinians. Some of the draconian measures Israel has undertaken are every bit as repressive as a yellow star.
The further left this liberalism moves the more willing they are to do whatever it takes to support Israel. By the same token the right has their monolithic supporters of Israel as well.
As I said earlier, the issue is where one's loyalties lie, not so much what one thinks of the situation.
This discussion would be very much helped if we had some people who can spot invalid stereotypes being presented as fact (I am particularly guilty of this) and give us good, solid information in its place. It would also be helpful if some knowledgeable supporters of Israel and supporters of Palestine joined in. Let's try to get some real discussion going on this, not just stereotype and opinion.
The issue is where one's true loyalty lies. If it is Israel, then that person is effectively an agent of a foreign country. If it is America, and the person happens to be Jewish, then they are free to develop themselves as they will within the limits of the law.
One reason Jews are at the center of American and European wealth, as well as opinion is that as a group they value education as one of the few doors open to them. This stems from their experience in Europe when the only profession open to the Jews was providing intellectual and real capital for the engines of commerce that helped usher in Modernism.
I suspect to a certain degree what dixiereader says regarding the media has some validity, but not as a matter of some grand Jewish conspiracy as much as that the movers and shakers in the media are now and always have been, Jewish. Movies, radio, and television were full of Jews for one reason: entertainment has always been open to Jews. Vaudeville, which is where many of the early radio and television personalities came from was filled with Jews. The movie moguls, a position open to Jews, created the movies and, like most objects of discrimination tended to stick together.
Most, not all, most Jews in entertainment are liberals, mostly by temperament and education. The history of Jews in America as targets for discrimination is another reason for their liberalism. I believe this liberalism is what drives their support for Israel, just as this same liberalism drives the same support for many non-Jewish Americans. The problem is that we are seeing both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian issue from a more or less unbiased view, now. The tragedy of Palestine becomes clearer and clearer as time goes by and this is breaking down the view that Israel is the sufferer here. The Palestinians are engendering a sense of being wronged in all this, while Israel takes on a more monolithic appearance (which is false) as the jailers of the Palestinians. Some of the draconian measures Israel has undertaken are every bit as repressive as a yellow star.
The further left this liberalism moves the more willing they are to do whatever it takes to support Israel. By the same token the right has their monolithic supporters of Israel as well.
As I said earlier, the issue is where one's loyalties lie, not so much what one thinks of the situation.
This discussion would be very much helped if we had some people who can spot invalid stereotypes being presented as fact (I am particularly guilty of this) and give us good, solid information in its place. It would also be helpful if some knowledgeable supporters of Israel and supporters of Palestine joined in. Let's try to get some real discussion going on this, not just stereotype and opinion.
33modalursine
Here's a quote lifted from page 2 of an article
called "The Usual Suspects" by Jeffery Goldberg writing in the New Republic.
The article itself is a fairly oppositional view (some might even call it a hostile revoew)
of The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy
By John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
I havent yet read the book in question and I have yet no informed opinion on Walt and Mwearsheimer but I note in passing that the Pro Israel lobby and the jewish organizations in general tend to take foreign policy positions which are far to the right of those of most american jews.
And as if I have to say it again, being against the AIPAC and such does not make one ipso facto an antisemite. I think they're stalking horses for the Likud and are politically and morally bankrupt.
"It is rather uncontroversial to call Osama bin Laden an anti-Semite. He is the easy case. But since many people in the West are queasy about attaching the label of anti-Semitism to almost anybody, regarding the charge of anti-Semitism as itself proof of prejudice, let me begin by describing bin Laden's view of history less inflammatorily--not as anti-Semitic, but as Judeocentric. He believes that Jews exercise disproportionate control over world affairs, and that world affairs may therefore be explained by reference to the Jews. A Judeocentric view of history is one that regards the Jews as the center of the story, and therefore the key to it. Judeocentrism is a singlecause theory of history, and as such it is, almost by definition, a conspiracy theory. Moreover, Judeocentrism comes in positive forms and negative forms. The positive form of Judeocentrism is philo-Semitism, the negative form is antiSemitism. (There are philo-Semites who regard the Jews as the inventors of modernity, and there are anti-Semites who do the same; but the idea that Spinoza, Freud, and Einstein are responsible for us is as foolish as the idea that their ideas are judische Wissenschaft.) In both its positive and negative forms, Judeocentrism is always a mistake. Human events are not so neatly explained."
called "The Usual Suspects" by Jeffery Goldberg writing in the New Republic.
The article itself is a fairly oppositional view (some might even call it a hostile revoew)
of The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy
By John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt
I havent yet read the book in question and I have yet no informed opinion on Walt and Mwearsheimer but I note in passing that the Pro Israel lobby and the jewish organizations in general tend to take foreign policy positions which are far to the right of those of most american jews.
And as if I have to say it again, being against the AIPAC and such does not make one ipso facto an antisemite. I think they're stalking horses for the Likud and are politically and morally bankrupt.
"It is rather uncontroversial to call Osama bin Laden an anti-Semite. He is the easy case. But since many people in the West are queasy about attaching the label of anti-Semitism to almost anybody, regarding the charge of anti-Semitism as itself proof of prejudice, let me begin by describing bin Laden's view of history less inflammatorily--not as anti-Semitic, but as Judeocentric. He believes that Jews exercise disproportionate control over world affairs, and that world affairs may therefore be explained by reference to the Jews. A Judeocentric view of history is one that regards the Jews as the center of the story, and therefore the key to it. Judeocentrism is a singlecause theory of history, and as such it is, almost by definition, a conspiracy theory. Moreover, Judeocentrism comes in positive forms and negative forms. The positive form of Judeocentrism is philo-Semitism, the negative form is antiSemitism. (There are philo-Semites who regard the Jews as the inventors of modernity, and there are anti-Semites who do the same; but the idea that Spinoza, Freud, and Einstein are responsible for us is as foolish as the idea that their ideas are judische Wissenschaft.) In both its positive and negative forms, Judeocentrism is always a mistake. Human events are not so neatly explained."
34dixiereader
Again, I am trying to be civil and put forward some thoughts. I am not angry I am not upset. I am calm.
Bin Laden as an anti-semite? I thought Bin Laden is a Semite. Certainly more so than Askanazi Jews who do not have the same DNA as Semites like bin laden, Arafat or the Jews of ancient Israel.
Haven't the Askenazi Jews usurped the place of the actual Jewish desendents of ancient Israel. Just as they are driving Palestinian Jews from their homeland and taking that too.
Judeocentricity is a philosophy that explains away any criticism of Jews in the same way accusations of anti-semitism have done in the past. It is used to replace the old canard that anyone who criticises a Jew or Israel is an anti-semite.
Since accusations of anti-semitism are not as effective as they once were they get dusted off and remade and redefined into Judeocentrism.
So if we say that Jews have enormous power we are made into Judeocentrics which has already been defined as "a mistake". An unfortuante mistake no doubt.
Thats how it works. If I say that Rham Emanuel is the Democrat who chooses party nominees and is therefore very powerful and in a position to see to it that only Zionists get nominated then I fall into the catagory of being a Judeocentric because I say that Jews control something or have power.
Yet Rahm Emanuel is in that position. He was born in Israel. He served in the Israeli military. His father was one of the key figures who fought for the Jewish state and killed a lot of Palestinians. Now Emanuel is a king maker in the United States government. The most powerful nation on Earth.
To be relentless on behalf of a worthy goal is honorable. Not all Jews but certain Jews are relentless politically. If they don't get something today they just keep plugging away til they reach their goal. These particular political Jews do not concern themselves with the general welfare because they care only about their own welfare. That gives them a great advantage.
When the leader in the Phillipines (I think it was the Phillipines, it may have been another country) was furious at the failure of the economy in his country he openly made statements blaming Jews for their influence in world markets and of course this was picked up by every single news organization which also never gave any investigative reporting surrounding the incident. They just made it look like the guy was an anti-semite and that Jews are once again innocent victims.
As it turned out Warren Buffet, a Jew, had done things in the market, which I don't understand because I don't understand Wall Street, but Buffet admitted in a speech before a group of Jews in NYC that he indeed was the one the leader of that country was talking about because he had caused the hot economy of that nation to crash by his manuevers in hedge funds or whatever.
Was the leader of the Phillipines a Judeocentric. If telling the truth makes you a Judeocentric then please put me down as that.
The leader of France who was the toast of WAshington recently is a Jew who is a fervent Zionist. This puts him in a position to help Israel regardless of what the French people want. All you need is one person in one key position. The US media is bending over backward to glamorize this guy who gives full support to the neocons and their Iraqi holocaust. We went from boycotting French fries to swallowing swill. Now the French are the good guys.
Jews make up a disporporatate percentage of the Parliment in Britian and in the United States Congress. They also play a very powerful and influencial role behind the scenes because of their money.
Jews are in positions to effect world events. This is a fact. You can call it Judeocentric since that word is as good as any other. What you may not do is accuse those who state the facts and attempt to debate them as haters of Jews. Judeocentric holds the same cache as anti-semite.
If as in my case we are opposing Jewish politics that is something that is legitimate and acceptable. It should not be couched in dubious and nefarious terms such as Judeocentric nor should it be labeled as "a mistake". It is our right and our duty.
With all due respect Mod, it says everything about your argument that you must resort to talking about how many books I have at librarything and how many reviews or whatever and that you must resort to philosophies such as Judeocentrism to make your case.
Where is your justification for supporting Zionism. What makes Jews exempt from the standards and morals that others are judged by.
mod are you denying that Jews have money, power and influence in governments, media and world markets?
Are you denying that most of the neocons are Jews. Are you denying that Jews use their money to get people elected or defeated based upon Jewish interests alone, particularly Israel.
ARe you saying we should not oppose Israel because that is Judeocentrism. Are you saying we should not worry about Jewish money in campaigns because that is Judeocentrism? ARe you saying we should not be concerned about the influence that Israeli leaders have with our White House. Are you saying it is meaningless that Isarel has sent a delegation to Washington to lobby us to attack Iran.
are you saying it is no big deal and merely a coincidence that every step of aggression that we've taken in the middle east has been championed by Israel but deplored by every other nation on EArth.
If it is deplored by the rest of the world and we are the nation that is supposed to be an example for the rest of the world then how did we come to commit a holocaust against Israel's enemies. Against the consent of most Americans btw. Please explain that. these are not rehtorical questions.
How is it that all the candidates of both parties are rabid Zionists. How is it that we got John Kerry foist off on us so that no matter whether a liberal or a neocon got into the White House we would commit an international war crime against Israel's enemies.
Didn't millions of us Democrats march against war. What made John Kerry or anyone else think they could win the DEMOCRATIC nomination by going along with neocons in the most important issue confronting our country.
Perhaps it doesn't matter what the people think because its some Rahm Emanuel who makes the decisions. That is what happened isn't it.
Why are most Americans both democrats and republicans still leery of every single candidate and unhappy with our "choices". Perhaps none of the candidates have values that we consent to. They are chosen by people such as Rahm Emanuel.
America leads the world. America decides what gets done and what doesn't. America is the most powerful nation on Earth. Americacentrism. Why would I think of such a word as a "mistake". I have no shame and no guilt in America being powerful.
If someone told me that I was very powerful and influencial do you think my head would not fill with pride and I would consider it a compliment and even believe it because it is something that is flattering whether its true or not.
Should Americans say "ah gee we're not that powerful". Why would we. Why would we want people to think we don't have power. We have no reason to try to fool anyone. It is what it is.
Just the fact that Jews have been able to make the Holocaust become more powerful in the minds of Americans rather than less so over time is more evidence of their money and influence and propaganda agenda. There is a reason why they want Nazis to be in the forefront of every American's brain. There is a reason why they want criticism of jews to be thought of in terms of anti-semitism or Judeocentrism.
If Jews do not wish others to know of their power then they must be doing things they know that others would not like and they know they don't have the power to back up their agenda. That is where campaigns such as anti-semitisim and Judeocentric come from. Don't try to convince others that what you are doing is right. Just convince them that those who attack you are doing so because they are evil Nazis.
Jews are utterly dependent upon Americans.
We will be held accountable for our actions. Some universal karma will catch up with us. We must do the thing that we know is right and uphold our Consitution, our Christian beliefs and continue to be a beacon for the world.
Americans have a right to know.
Bin Laden as an anti-semite? I thought Bin Laden is a Semite. Certainly more so than Askanazi Jews who do not have the same DNA as Semites like bin laden, Arafat or the Jews of ancient Israel.
Haven't the Askenazi Jews usurped the place of the actual Jewish desendents of ancient Israel. Just as they are driving Palestinian Jews from their homeland and taking that too.
Judeocentricity is a philosophy that explains away any criticism of Jews in the same way accusations of anti-semitism have done in the past. It is used to replace the old canard that anyone who criticises a Jew or Israel is an anti-semite.
Since accusations of anti-semitism are not as effective as they once were they get dusted off and remade and redefined into Judeocentrism.
So if we say that Jews have enormous power we are made into Judeocentrics which has already been defined as "a mistake". An unfortuante mistake no doubt.
Thats how it works. If I say that Rham Emanuel is the Democrat who chooses party nominees and is therefore very powerful and in a position to see to it that only Zionists get nominated then I fall into the catagory of being a Judeocentric because I say that Jews control something or have power.
Yet Rahm Emanuel is in that position. He was born in Israel. He served in the Israeli military. His father was one of the key figures who fought for the Jewish state and killed a lot of Palestinians. Now Emanuel is a king maker in the United States government. The most powerful nation on Earth.
To be relentless on behalf of a worthy goal is honorable. Not all Jews but certain Jews are relentless politically. If they don't get something today they just keep plugging away til they reach their goal. These particular political Jews do not concern themselves with the general welfare because they care only about their own welfare. That gives them a great advantage.
When the leader in the Phillipines (I think it was the Phillipines, it may have been another country) was furious at the failure of the economy in his country he openly made statements blaming Jews for their influence in world markets and of course this was picked up by every single news organization which also never gave any investigative reporting surrounding the incident. They just made it look like the guy was an anti-semite and that Jews are once again innocent victims.
As it turned out Warren Buffet, a Jew, had done things in the market, which I don't understand because I don't understand Wall Street, but Buffet admitted in a speech before a group of Jews in NYC that he indeed was the one the leader of that country was talking about because he had caused the hot economy of that nation to crash by his manuevers in hedge funds or whatever.
Was the leader of the Phillipines a Judeocentric. If telling the truth makes you a Judeocentric then please put me down as that.
The leader of France who was the toast of WAshington recently is a Jew who is a fervent Zionist. This puts him in a position to help Israel regardless of what the French people want. All you need is one person in one key position. The US media is bending over backward to glamorize this guy who gives full support to the neocons and their Iraqi holocaust. We went from boycotting French fries to swallowing swill. Now the French are the good guys.
Jews make up a disporporatate percentage of the Parliment in Britian and in the United States Congress. They also play a very powerful and influencial role behind the scenes because of their money.
Jews are in positions to effect world events. This is a fact. You can call it Judeocentric since that word is as good as any other. What you may not do is accuse those who state the facts and attempt to debate them as haters of Jews. Judeocentric holds the same cache as anti-semite.
If as in my case we are opposing Jewish politics that is something that is legitimate and acceptable. It should not be couched in dubious and nefarious terms such as Judeocentric nor should it be labeled as "a mistake". It is our right and our duty.
With all due respect Mod, it says everything about your argument that you must resort to talking about how many books I have at librarything and how many reviews or whatever and that you must resort to philosophies such as Judeocentrism to make your case.
Where is your justification for supporting Zionism. What makes Jews exempt from the standards and morals that others are judged by.
mod are you denying that Jews have money, power and influence in governments, media and world markets?
Are you denying that most of the neocons are Jews. Are you denying that Jews use their money to get people elected or defeated based upon Jewish interests alone, particularly Israel.
ARe you saying we should not oppose Israel because that is Judeocentrism. Are you saying we should not worry about Jewish money in campaigns because that is Judeocentrism? ARe you saying we should not be concerned about the influence that Israeli leaders have with our White House. Are you saying it is meaningless that Isarel has sent a delegation to Washington to lobby us to attack Iran.
are you saying it is no big deal and merely a coincidence that every step of aggression that we've taken in the middle east has been championed by Israel but deplored by every other nation on EArth.
If it is deplored by the rest of the world and we are the nation that is supposed to be an example for the rest of the world then how did we come to commit a holocaust against Israel's enemies. Against the consent of most Americans btw. Please explain that. these are not rehtorical questions.
How is it that all the candidates of both parties are rabid Zionists. How is it that we got John Kerry foist off on us so that no matter whether a liberal or a neocon got into the White House we would commit an international war crime against Israel's enemies.
Didn't millions of us Democrats march against war. What made John Kerry or anyone else think they could win the DEMOCRATIC nomination by going along with neocons in the most important issue confronting our country.
Perhaps it doesn't matter what the people think because its some Rahm Emanuel who makes the decisions. That is what happened isn't it.
Why are most Americans both democrats and republicans still leery of every single candidate and unhappy with our "choices". Perhaps none of the candidates have values that we consent to. They are chosen by people such as Rahm Emanuel.
America leads the world. America decides what gets done and what doesn't. America is the most powerful nation on Earth. Americacentrism. Why would I think of such a word as a "mistake". I have no shame and no guilt in America being powerful.
If someone told me that I was very powerful and influencial do you think my head would not fill with pride and I would consider it a compliment and even believe it because it is something that is flattering whether its true or not.
Should Americans say "ah gee we're not that powerful". Why would we. Why would we want people to think we don't have power. We have no reason to try to fool anyone. It is what it is.
Just the fact that Jews have been able to make the Holocaust become more powerful in the minds of Americans rather than less so over time is more evidence of their money and influence and propaganda agenda. There is a reason why they want Nazis to be in the forefront of every American's brain. There is a reason why they want criticism of jews to be thought of in terms of anti-semitism or Judeocentrism.
If Jews do not wish others to know of their power then they must be doing things they know that others would not like and they know they don't have the power to back up their agenda. That is where campaigns such as anti-semitisim and Judeocentric come from. Don't try to convince others that what you are doing is right. Just convince them that those who attack you are doing so because they are evil Nazis.
Jews are utterly dependent upon Americans.
We will be held accountable for our actions. Some universal karma will catch up with us. We must do the thing that we know is right and uphold our Consitution, our Christian beliefs and continue to be a beacon for the world.
Americans have a right to know.
36geneg
If one strips the rhetoric from dixie's querstions and leaves just the bare bones, several of them are very good questions. Not all conspiracies are the result of an overactive imagination.
An interesting experiment would be for the US government to announce the US is going to let its military contracts with Israel lapse, and that we are going to reduce our aid by 75%, and if Israel starts a war, they are on their own. The interesting thing would be to see the reaction of different people and organizations both in and out of government and in Israel.
The Holocaust was not just a crime against the Jews, and subsequently leaves a bad taste about Naziism in our mouths that would fade over time if only the Jews would let us forget it. No, the Holocaust was a crime against all humanity conducted by one of the most cruel, evil, wicked, despicable, vile, inhumane, nasty regimes of all human history, (only communist Russia in the days of the Red Tsar and possibly the Khmer Rouge were worse). It is a human responsibility to remember Naziism and the Holocaust and to never let them happen again.
Once again, any "conspiracy" by the Jews, especially the Ashkenazi Jews, are the result of the treatment of European Jewry from the end of the Pax Romana until now.
Injustice leads to punishment. It might be a thousand years coming (ask the Iraqi's and the Afghans.) But it will most surely come.
We are now experiencing the result of 1500 years of forcing the Jews into a box. Well, it turns out it was Pandora's box and it was opened in 1948. We need to learn this lesson side by side with the lessons of the Holocaust.
An interesting experiment would be for the US government to announce the US is going to let its military contracts with Israel lapse, and that we are going to reduce our aid by 75%, and if Israel starts a war, they are on their own. The interesting thing would be to see the reaction of different people and organizations both in and out of government and in Israel.
The Holocaust was not just a crime against the Jews, and subsequently leaves a bad taste about Naziism in our mouths that would fade over time if only the Jews would let us forget it. No, the Holocaust was a crime against all humanity conducted by one of the most cruel, evil, wicked, despicable, vile, inhumane, nasty regimes of all human history, (only communist Russia in the days of the Red Tsar and possibly the Khmer Rouge were worse). It is a human responsibility to remember Naziism and the Holocaust and to never let them happen again.
Once again, any "conspiracy" by the Jews, especially the Ashkenazi Jews, are the result of the treatment of European Jewry from the end of the Pax Romana until now.
Injustice leads to punishment. It might be a thousand years coming (ask the Iraqi's and the Afghans.) But it will most surely come.
We are now experiencing the result of 1500 years of forcing the Jews into a box. Well, it turns out it was Pandora's box and it was opened in 1948. We need to learn this lesson side by side with the lessons of the Holocaust.
37dchaikin
#32 "Good Job, dixiereader!!"
#36 "If one strips the rhetoric from dixie's querstions... "
Eh? Rhetoric? That is very kind euphemism for dixiereader's views. Why are we petting hatred in hopes it will go away, and suddenly we will conjure a constructive conversation about Israel and it's controversial and bloody history? I find this complimenting of dixiereader's method of argument sick.
Before I go on, let me state that my goal is not to discuss dixiereaders arguments, but to discuss his method of argument. It is his simplistic and offensive characterization of Jews that I find simply unacceptable. He has taken everything he finds offensive in the world and (and not totally coherently) summed it all up a "Jews." His has classified "Jews" as the evil powers that run the world by a sinister undermining of Democracy. It's a mixture of fact and outright blind wishful antisemitism. Yes, there are powerful groups in American, and yes the public good is not their purpose, they want money and power and they don't want to bow down to Democracy, they want to manipulate it. Yes they've had some success. And yes, Gore would have been much much better than Bush and the Neocons. Yes, some of these groups and individuals are Jewish. But, to characterize them all as Jewish and to characterize it as a Jewish "conspiracy" is to run the Nazi playbook.
Here is the logical conclusion to dixiereader's argument, as far as I can tell: Run another holocaust, wipe out all Jews in Isreal and America. Then the world magically become a happy place of friendly Democracy. The political powerbrokers will evaporate; Haliburton, Blackwater and Diebold will suddenly become eco-friendly and democracy friendly. Ralph Nader will become a serious candidate for president.
Seriously, Israel does have problems and should be a hot topic, not a political given. But dixiereader's antisemitism and tossing out of a "Jewish conspiracy" is not the solution, it's simply hatred.
#36 "If one strips the rhetoric from dixie's querstions... "
Eh? Rhetoric? That is very kind euphemism for dixiereader's views. Why are we petting hatred in hopes it will go away, and suddenly we will conjure a constructive conversation about Israel and it's controversial and bloody history? I find this complimenting of dixiereader's method of argument sick.
Before I go on, let me state that my goal is not to discuss dixiereaders arguments, but to discuss his method of argument. It is his simplistic and offensive characterization of Jews that I find simply unacceptable. He has taken everything he finds offensive in the world and (and not totally coherently) summed it all up a "Jews." His has classified "Jews" as the evil powers that run the world by a sinister undermining of Democracy. It's a mixture of fact and outright blind wishful antisemitism. Yes, there are powerful groups in American, and yes the public good is not their purpose, they want money and power and they don't want to bow down to Democracy, they want to manipulate it. Yes they've had some success. And yes, Gore would have been much much better than Bush and the Neocons. Yes, some of these groups and individuals are Jewish. But, to characterize them all as Jewish and to characterize it as a Jewish "conspiracy" is to run the Nazi playbook.
Here is the logical conclusion to dixiereader's argument, as far as I can tell: Run another holocaust, wipe out all Jews in Isreal and America. Then the world magically become a happy place of friendly Democracy. The political powerbrokers will evaporate; Haliburton, Blackwater and Diebold will suddenly become eco-friendly and democracy friendly. Ralph Nader will become a serious candidate for president.
Seriously, Israel does have problems and should be a hot topic, not a political given. But dixiereader's antisemitism and tossing out of a "Jewish conspiracy" is not the solution, it's simply hatred.
38modalursine
My profile is publicly posted here in "Library Thing".
It should be clear at a glance that I am no kind of scholar of History, Judaism, Islam, the Middle East
or the relation between Jews and Arabs.
But, ignorant and unqualified as I am, allow me to share one or two little facts about the world, which you can easily check thanx to the wonders of the internet.
When Bill Clinton gave a speach at the Democratic convention in 2004, he said of the republicans "You know, when I was president, they treated me kind of mean". I think we can fairly say something similar about how Europe of the late 19th century treated the Jews.
One popular idea was that the jews were plotting to rule the world, following a philosophy or world view the jew haters called "semitism". In order to oppose the supposed wicked influence of the jews, the call went out to support "Anti-Semitism", an ideology of opposition to the jewish "semitism" .
European anti-semitism is anti "jew"-ism; nothing more and nothing less. It is not anti Arab-ism, anti-Babylonianism or anti any of the supposed sons of Shem-ism, nor is it opposition to semitic languages such as Hebrew, Arabic, Akkadian, or any of the others (Geeze? Amharic? Coptic? ...I told you I'm no specialist)
Saying that an Arab (or Babylonian) could not be "anti-semitic" because those worthies are semites is either an ignorant confusion of the term "semitic" meaning nations traditionally thought to be descendants of the biblical Shem, son of Noah, with the term "Semitism" as in "Anti-Semitism"; or it's an attempt by clever bastards to fool the rubes. (See "Inocente's Problem")
The Thirteenth Tribe
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/koestler/
I dont remember when he wrote it, 20's or '30's I should think. The basic thesis is that the Khazhars, who were a caucasian people (turkic, I think) converted to Judaism circa 740, were subsequently destroyed by Gengis Khan, but whose population fled to what is now Poland and/or the Ukraine where
they became the Ashkenazic jews. The present Ashkenazim, according to this theory are not descendants of the biblical jews, are not the close relatives of the sephardi jews, but are in fact, the desendants of a bunch of Turkic converts.
There really were Khazhars, they really did convert to Judaism, though no one knows whether that was just a narrow ruling elite or whether the whole population became jewish, their empire really was defeated. Whether significant numbers of them went to what is now Ukraine and Poland, I'm not sure. I suspect its either not proved or very controversial.
Before the advent of modern genetics, showing that the Ashkenazim were heavily descended from the Khazhars was a fringe effort, because the linguistic and ethnographic evidence doesnt support it. There arent any Khazhar words expressions or grammatical constructs in Yiddish to indicate a Khazhari component (Which of course does not DISPROVE the hyspotheses, but it gives no support to it either).
Khazari artifacts, designs, motifs, building plans, customs, names, food preparations etc arent evident in the Ashkenazi world either; to the best of my knowlege and belief.
The clincher though, is modern genetics. Much to the surprise and chagrin of all parties, the Palestinians, Syrians, and Ashkenazi Jews are all pretty much the same bunch, or at least very closely related, give or take a few variations, genetically. Nobody seems thrilled to death by that news, not the Palestinians who are not happy to be identified with Jews (And ditto Syrians), and not the Israeli's, many of whom feel about Arabs, as Americans used to feel about the American Indians.
Research into the archeology of the ancient middle east The Bible Unearthed suggests that the ancient Israelites were really Canaanites who separated from the rest sometime in the early Iron Age, but are essentially the same people.
If the palestinians, as they claim, are the descendants of the ancient canaanites, than the jews are ditto. Genetic evidence (to repeat myself) seems to say that they are very closely related.
In any case, who your great to the nth power grandpa was and where he migrated to or from, seems to me a useless factor in deciding how to get along in the here and now.
If anybody has a concrete suggestion about how the Middle east might change for the better, lets hear it.
It should be clear at a glance that I am no kind of scholar of History, Judaism, Islam, the Middle East
or the relation between Jews and Arabs.
But, ignorant and unqualified as I am, allow me to share one or two little facts about the world, which you can easily check thanx to the wonders of the internet.
When Bill Clinton gave a speach at the Democratic convention in 2004, he said of the republicans "You know, when I was president, they treated me kind of mean". I think we can fairly say something similar about how Europe of the late 19th century treated the Jews.
One popular idea was that the jews were plotting to rule the world, following a philosophy or world view the jew haters called "semitism". In order to oppose the supposed wicked influence of the jews, the call went out to support "Anti-Semitism", an ideology of opposition to the jewish "semitism" .
European anti-semitism is anti "jew"-ism; nothing more and nothing less. It is not anti Arab-ism, anti-Babylonianism or anti any of the supposed sons of Shem-ism, nor is it opposition to semitic languages such as Hebrew, Arabic, Akkadian, or any of the others (Geeze? Amharic? Coptic? ...I told you I'm no specialist)
Saying that an Arab (or Babylonian) could not be "anti-semitic" because those worthies are semites is either an ignorant confusion of the term "semitic" meaning nations traditionally thought to be descendants of the biblical Shem, son of Noah, with the term "Semitism" as in "Anti-Semitism"; or it's an attempt by clever bastards to fool the rubes. (See "Inocente's Problem")
The Thirteenth Tribe
http://www.christusrex.org/www2/koestler/
I dont remember when he wrote it, 20's or '30's I should think. The basic thesis is that the Khazhars, who were a caucasian people (turkic, I think) converted to Judaism circa 740, were subsequently destroyed by Gengis Khan, but whose population fled to what is now Poland and/or the Ukraine where
they became the Ashkenazic jews. The present Ashkenazim, according to this theory are not descendants of the biblical jews, are not the close relatives of the sephardi jews, but are in fact, the desendants of a bunch of Turkic converts.
There really were Khazhars, they really did convert to Judaism, though no one knows whether that was just a narrow ruling elite or whether the whole population became jewish, their empire really was defeated. Whether significant numbers of them went to what is now Ukraine and Poland, I'm not sure. I suspect its either not proved or very controversial.
Before the advent of modern genetics, showing that the Ashkenazim were heavily descended from the Khazhars was a fringe effort, because the linguistic and ethnographic evidence doesnt support it. There arent any Khazhar words expressions or grammatical constructs in Yiddish to indicate a Khazhari component (Which of course does not DISPROVE the hyspotheses, but it gives no support to it either).
Khazari artifacts, designs, motifs, building plans, customs, names, food preparations etc arent evident in the Ashkenazi world either; to the best of my knowlege and belief.
The clincher though, is modern genetics. Much to the surprise and chagrin of all parties, the Palestinians, Syrians, and Ashkenazi Jews are all pretty much the same bunch, or at least very closely related, give or take a few variations, genetically. Nobody seems thrilled to death by that news, not the Palestinians who are not happy to be identified with Jews (And ditto Syrians), and not the Israeli's, many of whom feel about Arabs, as Americans used to feel about the American Indians.
Research into the archeology of the ancient middle east The Bible Unearthed suggests that the ancient Israelites were really Canaanites who separated from the rest sometime in the early Iron Age, but are essentially the same people.
If the palestinians, as they claim, are the descendants of the ancient canaanites, than the jews are ditto. Genetic evidence (to repeat myself) seems to say that they are very closely related.
In any case, who your great to the nth power grandpa was and where he migrated to or from, seems to me a useless factor in deciding how to get along in the here and now.
If anybody has a concrete suggestion about how the Middle east might change for the better, lets hear it.
39dixiereader
Este mensaje ha sido denunciado por varios usuarios por lo que no se muestra públicamente. (mostrar)
I came across an article in the Atlantic Monthly yesterday where Robert Kaplan causually alludes to the fact that Israel is influencing our middle east politics. ISRAEL. A FOREIGN country. He stated it in a matter of fact manner that suggests it is simply common knowledge
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200506/kaplan/2
quote
Our actions in the Pacific will not be swayed by the equivalent of the Israel lobby; Protestant evangelicals will care less about the Pacific Rim than about the fate of the Holy Land. unquote
Read the entire article in order to get the force of this comment and to put it into context. The idea that Israel can have so much say regarding our military and government and our very souls and agenda. Of course that makes Kaplan a Judeocentric. Poor fella. He doesn't even know it.
All the money and blood we have spent in the middle east is no small thing. The people in the White House would rather spend money in the middle east than give us health care or college educations or uphold the Consitution. Or solve problems thru diplomacy and negotiation. How much more significant could it be.
They are using the miliary that WE built, the nation WE formed to accomplish a very different agenda then what America stands for.
Do you get it. Do you understand the extent of Jews' power? The fact that they have power is meaningless - until you see how they are using that power. That is what matters. They don't care about the USA. They are using us. They are weakening us. They are siphoning off resouces that we need and which should be elsewhere. This is a legtimate discussion of where we should put our resources.
How can you talk of the Nazis being evil without any sense of the fact that WE are now the Nazis because of Israel.
What magic has been weaved that you still talk of evil nazis? While we are supporting Israel and WE are Isarel's proxy.
Regarding Jews being oppressed in Europe which is always brought up anytime anyone dares to oppose them now.
Suppose someone goes for a job interview. He states that he worked at X but got fired because the people there were awful and he couldn't get along with them so he got a job at Y but he got fired because the people there were awful and he couldn't get along with them so he got a job elsewhere etc etc etc.
Should the employer hire this guy because he has had such a bad experience. Would you hire him. Must you not suspend disbelief when talking about the history of Jews in Europe.
I just don't understand why everyone would hate Jews for no reason. It doesn't make sense. That is what I am being accused of whenever I oppose what they are doing. I don't see how they can use that history to get whatever they want.
It seems to me that European history is an indictment against them rather than showing that they are innocent victims. How can everybody be wrong and it be only these jews that they wronged.
Will we not be added to that list. If we oppose Israel will the jews not use us in the future and frame us to be ugly anti semites. Jews have been able to become the richest and most powerful segment of our population. Wouldn't it be ironic if we get added to the historic list of nations that offended Jews. And its all our fault.
You might condemn some European history for what happened to the Jews but then you get hit in the face with what they are doing in America today.
Most Jews don't want to live in Israel. They seem to be doing just fine where they are. Which tells us what? Israel is losing citizens every year.
Israel should not exist because of past histories any more than blacks should have their own state and the rest of the world be expected to sacrifce on its behalf. Women should not have their own state simply because they have been raped, battered and murdered by husbands and boyfriends or mugged on the street.
Can women go everywhere men go? Even to this day can women walk down a street at night where a man can. Will she not be blamed if she gets raped by going into a bar where a bunch of men are.
wouldn't it be called a psychosis if a woman feared and hated all men because she had been raped by one.
Why can't we reexamine the Nazis with modern forensic technology.
There are thousands of books written about the War Between the States and other events and every time a book is written there is new investigation and research. Yet the holocaust stands as written by the Jews and as an uninvestigated dogma.
Did you know that there are people in prison in Canada, Germany and other nations whose crimes are that they deny the holocaust? Did you know that they are scientists and writers?
Recently it was in the news that Iranian jews fled to Israel and Wolf Blitzer and the rest made a big deal out of it. The better to get americans hyped up to bomb Iran. It was a lie. Oh the extent to which Israel and its supporters must go to get us to go along with their evil agenda. Whats wrong with the truth. Why doesn't the truth suffice.
Israel has been trying for a long time to get Iranian jews to come there but they won't. It was later reported that Iranian Jews were saying that the immigration story is bogus. Israel wants the jews to leave Iran so they can whine that Iran is totally like the Nazis.
If revenge is a dish best served cold then what is going to happen to Christians in the future when Muslims get a chance to get their revenge. Under Globalization these Muslims will out number Christians in Europe and North America.
Zionism and Globalization are threats to us and yet liberals and neocons are taking us there.
It is the enemies of the jews who have been rounded up and locked away at Gitmo and who are having bombs dropped on them and their holy cities destroyed. So what in the world are you talking about when you say we must remember nazis so it never happens again! Don't you get it! IT IS HAPPENING and the Jews are behind it. Thats the whole point. They have turned US into nazis. You are a nazi. So who are you to point a finger.
There are Jews who oppose all of this and who oppose Israel.
Just as Robert Kaplan said, Israel runs our agenda in the middle east and it is common knowledge to everyone but dittoheads.
What reason would the United States have to attack the middle east. Arabs need to sell their oil and we need to buy it. How is Iran a threat to us even if it goes nuclear.
Saddam lobbed missles into Israel. Thats what they hung him for. Iran is a threat to Israsel thats why Bush/Cheney will bomb it before they leave office, AT OUR EXPENSE.
Israel's agenda is a Greater Israel in which it takes all the land between the Med Sea and the Jordan river. Illegally. And to become the great power of the middle east with Arab nations and Iran as minor satellites. Iran's crime is that it is a power to be reckoned with like Iraq. Our holocaust in the middle east is about isarel.
What do we americans have vested in making the podunk state of israel into a power. It causes enough trouble as it is. It shouldn't have power any more than Nazis should be trusted with it. We are already regretting the policies that have been in place that have made it what it is today. Why add to it. We should take away its nuclear power not give it more.
It makes me angry that Jews use America to take their petty Israeli type relentless revenge. I'd rather see the israeli leader hang than Saddam. I deplore the Isarelization of America. Look how low they have brought us. Ask not for whom the bell tolls it tolls for us.
I suggest that each person do their own reserch because the Askanazi Jews do not have the same DNA as claimed.
We have serious problems to contend with and we are exhausting our resources and attention in the middle east because of Jews and their power. WE are the ones who are seeing health care cuts for children and the elderly. The neocons and liberals couldn't care less about us. Why can't we get leaders who care about America first. you know why.
Why can't we stick to talking about today and what is happening today. Why do we keep going back to Europe or Jewish history as tho that somehow makes it wrong to discuss Jews' involvement today.
Talking about European history and Jewish suffering is a red herring. It is the enemies of the Jews who are suffering today and we are the Nazis who are paying for it when we should be fighting Globlazation instead of Muslims. We should be watching the Chinese instead of Iran.
The dollar is the basis of the American economy. Every nation must buy oil in dollars which allows it to circulate around the globe. Neocons have provoked Iraq and Iran into selling oil in Euros. Iran has a new oil bourse. These counties and their dollar policy was the foundation of the American economy. We had no reason to be enemies of them.
With the collaspe of the dollar and the rise of China it is almost like God is punishing us. He blessed us not Israel. If God promised that land to the Askanazi Jews then why do they have to turn to the hated Christians to secure it for them. Why doesn't God help them. Especially since they keep talking about how He promised them that land and they are entitled to it. Their homeland should be in Mongolia and most of the people of the world would like to see them there.
Dubai is where everyone wants to go. Israel practically has to hire Christians to come to the Holy Land during Christmas. What person in their right mind would want to bring the middle east madness of continual killing to their own shores.
I still have a bitter taste in my mouth remembering how the liberals and Jews scapegoated the Christians for our middle east holocaust. Day after day they dumped on them even tho no one is allowed to say anything negetive about Jews. Because George Bush claimed to be Christian they used that as the basis of their anti-Christian jihad. Knowing the facts all along. Our children get to do the fighting and dying as well as serving as hated scapegoats.
The failure of the Southern Baptist Convention is that it never stressed education and intellectualism the way that Jews do. Today Christians can't defend their religion, their country nor prevent their children from dying in the middle east. The entire middle east policy is the brainchild of Jewish intellectuals.
Leo Struass was a real man and I didn't make him up. He taught at Chicago University. He is the neocon's philospher. He taught that Jews could get rid of the old WASP ruling class and take its place but that they must make the WASP history, religion and culture seem illigetimate.
Jews have been so sucessful at this you have to think they have had some practice and knew exactly what they were doing when they first set feet in America after ww2.
http://www.nhinet.org/ryn18-1.htm
Isn't this a conspiracy to take power and if you take it in the United States of America will you not be able to rule the world. Correct me if I'm wrong.
If Americans know the facts will we not react in the same manner as European countries. Isn't this the history of the Jews. Can't you look at history and what was done in the past to know what will happen in the future.
Today WE are accused of being bigots but our policies and philosophy of inclusion have been so without prejudice based upon race, creed or religion that it has proven to be our Achilles heel because of what jews are doing to us. Yet they are able to twist things around and accuse us.
Why did Hitler pose the thought of a "final" solution. Doesn't that speak to the fact that everyone was looking for a solution. To what? How much understanding of history do we have other than the Jews' side.
We are Americans. We are not Nazis. Yet look at our "solution" to the middle east. Look at who is behind it.
Why does everyone get shocked and dismayed at Jews' suffering but treat others as if genocide is just another mundane fact of life. We can't do anything more about Nazis than we have already done. But we can stop the genocide against Isarel's enemies and the slow motion holocaust against the Palestinians because that is what we stand for and that is why we stopped nazis.
The liberals have not led us down that path tho. Liberals and neocons are flip sides of the same vile coin. They are the new ruling elites. They are our enemies.
Yet you are actually talking about democratic debates and who you might vote for. Compare yourselves to the German people during the time of the Nazis.
Will you just go along because everyone else is. How can you be so sensitive about Jews and yet callous and indifferent about Palestinians and Iraqis and Iranians.
How can you be so indifferent to the facts surrounding globalization. Do you not know enough to vizualize your grandchildren's lives in the world you are creating for them.
How are you different from the rightwing dittoheads that you have so much contempt for.
Are democrats powerless. Can they not speak out with much passion in defense of our Constitution and history that Americans who are already overwhelmingly against our middle east policies would rally to save the world. So why aren't they.
You are talking about who came out the winner in the "debates" which would be a disgrace in themselves if they were held in Hatti much less America.
At least we knew who we were and what we stood for when WASPs ran our government. Any war we fought left soldiers with honor and America stronger and in a moral position to serve as the world's leader. What do we have today. We are a world superpower gone amuck and every nation on Earth cowers that we might bomb them next. What happened to justice. Honor.
What defense does Iran have. What if you were Iranian and you had little children. Where would you hide from our bombs and missles. Would you call out to God to stop the United States and the injustice it rains down on others like Nazis.
Who can save Iran if not you. We must stop Israel. We must put it in its place. It is nothing but a podunk state that is the terrorist engine of the world.
jews boast of their superiortiy. They boast about how many of them ran the Clinton administration. And rightly so because they did run it. They are the richest and they fund wars such as the way the Rothchilds have done. Yet they whine if anyone states these facts.
But what are they really. Without us what are they. If they are so superior lets leave them to their own devices and see how far they get.
If they want a state of their own lets condition it on whether or not the Jews of the world live there. That way they can't worm their way into our government and use us and destroy us.
We can't be destroyed from without but we can fall from within and that is what is happening to us.
How smart it is when you move to a nation and eventually cause everyone to hate you. That is the history Jews are stuck with.
What is America today but a bunch of various groups with each running their own agenda and the one with the most money wins.
Wasn't there a stragety to all of this. From the moment Irving Berlin stepped foot on our shore to the moment Jacob Javits changed immigration laws to the moment the neocons stole the White House and the world trade center fell and we are committing a holocaust in the middle east. It is nothing more than coincidence I suppose. Leo Strauss is a coincidence as well.
Israel should be left to its own devices. If it can get along with its neighbors then it survives. If it cannot then may it be pushed into the sea.
Mod why should we care about how Israel solves its problems. What are they to us any more than what goes on between the English and the Irish or the Belguims and groups within that nation that are tearing it apart.
Why is Isarel so prominent in our policies.
Who cares about Israel. Why are you not discussing what is best for America?
I am asking you straight out. Why are you not discussing what is best for America. Why are you and some others not coming to its defense.
why am I even being put into a position of having to discuss Zionist Jews and Israel.
Why am I not forced to choose between the English or the Irish or the Georgians and the Russians or the Twanese and the Chinese or the Tibetians and the Chinese. Or the Indonesians and some of its own citizens or the rebels and the Paupa or the Mexicans and the pre Columbian native people.
What is the difference between all of these people and countries and Isarel to the United States of America.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200506/kaplan/2
quote
Our actions in the Pacific will not be swayed by the equivalent of the Israel lobby; Protestant evangelicals will care less about the Pacific Rim than about the fate of the Holy Land. unquote
Read the entire article in order to get the force of this comment and to put it into context. The idea that Israel can have so much say regarding our military and government and our very souls and agenda. Of course that makes Kaplan a Judeocentric. Poor fella. He doesn't even know it.
All the money and blood we have spent in the middle east is no small thing. The people in the White House would rather spend money in the middle east than give us health care or college educations or uphold the Consitution. Or solve problems thru diplomacy and negotiation. How much more significant could it be.
They are using the miliary that WE built, the nation WE formed to accomplish a very different agenda then what America stands for.
Do you get it. Do you understand the extent of Jews' power? The fact that they have power is meaningless - until you see how they are using that power. That is what matters. They don't care about the USA. They are using us. They are weakening us. They are siphoning off resouces that we need and which should be elsewhere. This is a legtimate discussion of where we should put our resources.
How can you talk of the Nazis being evil without any sense of the fact that WE are now the Nazis because of Israel.
What magic has been weaved that you still talk of evil nazis? While we are supporting Israel and WE are Isarel's proxy.
Regarding Jews being oppressed in Europe which is always brought up anytime anyone dares to oppose them now.
Suppose someone goes for a job interview. He states that he worked at X but got fired because the people there were awful and he couldn't get along with them so he got a job at Y but he got fired because the people there were awful and he couldn't get along with them so he got a job elsewhere etc etc etc.
Should the employer hire this guy because he has had such a bad experience. Would you hire him. Must you not suspend disbelief when talking about the history of Jews in Europe.
I just don't understand why everyone would hate Jews for no reason. It doesn't make sense. That is what I am being accused of whenever I oppose what they are doing. I don't see how they can use that history to get whatever they want.
It seems to me that European history is an indictment against them rather than showing that they are innocent victims. How can everybody be wrong and it be only these jews that they wronged.
Will we not be added to that list. If we oppose Israel will the jews not use us in the future and frame us to be ugly anti semites. Jews have been able to become the richest and most powerful segment of our population. Wouldn't it be ironic if we get added to the historic list of nations that offended Jews. And its all our fault.
You might condemn some European history for what happened to the Jews but then you get hit in the face with what they are doing in America today.
Most Jews don't want to live in Israel. They seem to be doing just fine where they are. Which tells us what? Israel is losing citizens every year.
Israel should not exist because of past histories any more than blacks should have their own state and the rest of the world be expected to sacrifce on its behalf. Women should not have their own state simply because they have been raped, battered and murdered by husbands and boyfriends or mugged on the street.
Can women go everywhere men go? Even to this day can women walk down a street at night where a man can. Will she not be blamed if she gets raped by going into a bar where a bunch of men are.
wouldn't it be called a psychosis if a woman feared and hated all men because she had been raped by one.
Why can't we reexamine the Nazis with modern forensic technology.
There are thousands of books written about the War Between the States and other events and every time a book is written there is new investigation and research. Yet the holocaust stands as written by the Jews and as an uninvestigated dogma.
Did you know that there are people in prison in Canada, Germany and other nations whose crimes are that they deny the holocaust? Did you know that they are scientists and writers?
Recently it was in the news that Iranian jews fled to Israel and Wolf Blitzer and the rest made a big deal out of it. The better to get americans hyped up to bomb Iran. It was a lie. Oh the extent to which Israel and its supporters must go to get us to go along with their evil agenda. Whats wrong with the truth. Why doesn't the truth suffice.
Israel has been trying for a long time to get Iranian jews to come there but they won't. It was later reported that Iranian Jews were saying that the immigration story is bogus. Israel wants the jews to leave Iran so they can whine that Iran is totally like the Nazis.
If revenge is a dish best served cold then what is going to happen to Christians in the future when Muslims get a chance to get their revenge. Under Globalization these Muslims will out number Christians in Europe and North America.
Zionism and Globalization are threats to us and yet liberals and neocons are taking us there.
It is the enemies of the jews who have been rounded up and locked away at Gitmo and who are having bombs dropped on them and their holy cities destroyed. So what in the world are you talking about when you say we must remember nazis so it never happens again! Don't you get it! IT IS HAPPENING and the Jews are behind it. Thats the whole point. They have turned US into nazis. You are a nazi. So who are you to point a finger.
There are Jews who oppose all of this and who oppose Israel.
Just as Robert Kaplan said, Israel runs our agenda in the middle east and it is common knowledge to everyone but dittoheads.
What reason would the United States have to attack the middle east. Arabs need to sell their oil and we need to buy it. How is Iran a threat to us even if it goes nuclear.
Saddam lobbed missles into Israel. Thats what they hung him for. Iran is a threat to Israsel thats why Bush/Cheney will bomb it before they leave office, AT OUR EXPENSE.
Israel's agenda is a Greater Israel in which it takes all the land between the Med Sea and the Jordan river. Illegally. And to become the great power of the middle east with Arab nations and Iran as minor satellites. Iran's crime is that it is a power to be reckoned with like Iraq. Our holocaust in the middle east is about isarel.
What do we americans have vested in making the podunk state of israel into a power. It causes enough trouble as it is. It shouldn't have power any more than Nazis should be trusted with it. We are already regretting the policies that have been in place that have made it what it is today. Why add to it. We should take away its nuclear power not give it more.
It makes me angry that Jews use America to take their petty Israeli type relentless revenge. I'd rather see the israeli leader hang than Saddam. I deplore the Isarelization of America. Look how low they have brought us. Ask not for whom the bell tolls it tolls for us.
I suggest that each person do their own reserch because the Askanazi Jews do not have the same DNA as claimed.
We have serious problems to contend with and we are exhausting our resources and attention in the middle east because of Jews and their power. WE are the ones who are seeing health care cuts for children and the elderly. The neocons and liberals couldn't care less about us. Why can't we get leaders who care about America first. you know why.
Why can't we stick to talking about today and what is happening today. Why do we keep going back to Europe or Jewish history as tho that somehow makes it wrong to discuss Jews' involvement today.
Talking about European history and Jewish suffering is a red herring. It is the enemies of the Jews who are suffering today and we are the Nazis who are paying for it when we should be fighting Globlazation instead of Muslims. We should be watching the Chinese instead of Iran.
The dollar is the basis of the American economy. Every nation must buy oil in dollars which allows it to circulate around the globe. Neocons have provoked Iraq and Iran into selling oil in Euros. Iran has a new oil bourse. These counties and their dollar policy was the foundation of the American economy. We had no reason to be enemies of them.
With the collaspe of the dollar and the rise of China it is almost like God is punishing us. He blessed us not Israel. If God promised that land to the Askanazi Jews then why do they have to turn to the hated Christians to secure it for them. Why doesn't God help them. Especially since they keep talking about how He promised them that land and they are entitled to it. Their homeland should be in Mongolia and most of the people of the world would like to see them there.
Dubai is where everyone wants to go. Israel practically has to hire Christians to come to the Holy Land during Christmas. What person in their right mind would want to bring the middle east madness of continual killing to their own shores.
I still have a bitter taste in my mouth remembering how the liberals and Jews scapegoated the Christians for our middle east holocaust. Day after day they dumped on them even tho no one is allowed to say anything negetive about Jews. Because George Bush claimed to be Christian they used that as the basis of their anti-Christian jihad. Knowing the facts all along. Our children get to do the fighting and dying as well as serving as hated scapegoats.
The failure of the Southern Baptist Convention is that it never stressed education and intellectualism the way that Jews do. Today Christians can't defend their religion, their country nor prevent their children from dying in the middle east. The entire middle east policy is the brainchild of Jewish intellectuals.
Leo Struass was a real man and I didn't make him up. He taught at Chicago University. He is the neocon's philospher. He taught that Jews could get rid of the old WASP ruling class and take its place but that they must make the WASP history, religion and culture seem illigetimate.
Jews have been so sucessful at this you have to think they have had some practice and knew exactly what they were doing when they first set feet in America after ww2.
http://www.nhinet.org/ryn18-1.htm
Isn't this a conspiracy to take power and if you take it in the United States of America will you not be able to rule the world. Correct me if I'm wrong.
If Americans know the facts will we not react in the same manner as European countries. Isn't this the history of the Jews. Can't you look at history and what was done in the past to know what will happen in the future.
Today WE are accused of being bigots but our policies and philosophy of inclusion have been so without prejudice based upon race, creed or religion that it has proven to be our Achilles heel because of what jews are doing to us. Yet they are able to twist things around and accuse us.
Why did Hitler pose the thought of a "final" solution. Doesn't that speak to the fact that everyone was looking for a solution. To what? How much understanding of history do we have other than the Jews' side.
We are Americans. We are not Nazis. Yet look at our "solution" to the middle east. Look at who is behind it.
Why does everyone get shocked and dismayed at Jews' suffering but treat others as if genocide is just another mundane fact of life. We can't do anything more about Nazis than we have already done. But we can stop the genocide against Isarel's enemies and the slow motion holocaust against the Palestinians because that is what we stand for and that is why we stopped nazis.
The liberals have not led us down that path tho. Liberals and neocons are flip sides of the same vile coin. They are the new ruling elites. They are our enemies.
Yet you are actually talking about democratic debates and who you might vote for. Compare yourselves to the German people during the time of the Nazis.
Will you just go along because everyone else is. How can you be so sensitive about Jews and yet callous and indifferent about Palestinians and Iraqis and Iranians.
How can you be so indifferent to the facts surrounding globalization. Do you not know enough to vizualize your grandchildren's lives in the world you are creating for them.
How are you different from the rightwing dittoheads that you have so much contempt for.
Are democrats powerless. Can they not speak out with much passion in defense of our Constitution and history that Americans who are already overwhelmingly against our middle east policies would rally to save the world. So why aren't they.
You are talking about who came out the winner in the "debates" which would be a disgrace in themselves if they were held in Hatti much less America.
At least we knew who we were and what we stood for when WASPs ran our government. Any war we fought left soldiers with honor and America stronger and in a moral position to serve as the world's leader. What do we have today. We are a world superpower gone amuck and every nation on Earth cowers that we might bomb them next. What happened to justice. Honor.
What defense does Iran have. What if you were Iranian and you had little children. Where would you hide from our bombs and missles. Would you call out to God to stop the United States and the injustice it rains down on others like Nazis.
Who can save Iran if not you. We must stop Israel. We must put it in its place. It is nothing but a podunk state that is the terrorist engine of the world.
jews boast of their superiortiy. They boast about how many of them ran the Clinton administration. And rightly so because they did run it. They are the richest and they fund wars such as the way the Rothchilds have done. Yet they whine if anyone states these facts.
But what are they really. Without us what are they. If they are so superior lets leave them to their own devices and see how far they get.
If they want a state of their own lets condition it on whether or not the Jews of the world live there. That way they can't worm their way into our government and use us and destroy us.
We can't be destroyed from without but we can fall from within and that is what is happening to us.
How smart it is when you move to a nation and eventually cause everyone to hate you. That is the history Jews are stuck with.
What is America today but a bunch of various groups with each running their own agenda and the one with the most money wins.
Wasn't there a stragety to all of this. From the moment Irving Berlin stepped foot on our shore to the moment Jacob Javits changed immigration laws to the moment the neocons stole the White House and the world trade center fell and we are committing a holocaust in the middle east. It is nothing more than coincidence I suppose. Leo Strauss is a coincidence as well.
Israel should be left to its own devices. If it can get along with its neighbors then it survives. If it cannot then may it be pushed into the sea.
Mod why should we care about how Israel solves its problems. What are they to us any more than what goes on between the English and the Irish or the Belguims and groups within that nation that are tearing it apart.
Why is Isarel so prominent in our policies.
Who cares about Israel. Why are you not discussing what is best for America?
I am asking you straight out. Why are you not discussing what is best for America. Why are you and some others not coming to its defense.
why am I even being put into a position of having to discuss Zionist Jews and Israel.
Why am I not forced to choose between the English or the Irish or the Georgians and the Russians or the Twanese and the Chinese or the Tibetians and the Chinese. Or the Indonesians and some of its own citizens or the rebels and the Paupa or the Mexicans and the pre Columbian native people.
What is the difference between all of these people and countries and Isarel to the United States of America.
40Jargoneer
Correct me if I'm wrong. You are wrong. Your opinions are based on nothing more than your hatred of Jews - they are simple-minded, based on misreadings and irrationality. You don't want a debate; from your words you won't be happy until all Jewish people are evicted from the US and Israel is destroyed.
The reason you are being accused of being a bigot is because YOU ARE A BIGOT.
In my opinion, your last post stepped beyond the rantings of bar-room bore to offensiveness, hence I am flagging you.
The reason you are being accused of being a bigot is because YOU ARE A BIGOT.
In my opinion, your last post stepped beyond the rantings of bar-room bore to offensiveness, hence I am flagging you.
42maggie1944
Message #38 - thanks for interesting stuff.
43dixiereader
Este mensaje ha sido denunciado por varios usuarios por lo que no se muestra públicamente. (mostrar)
My opinions are based upon nothing more than hatred? Hatred of whom? Americans, Iranians, Palestinians, Iraqis, Syrians, Jordanians, Christians?
Forgive me that I do not hate the right people.
Forgive me for not hating America sufficiently enough to allow it to be destroyed and its Consitution trashed for the convenince of Jews.
Forgive me for not allowing myself to be caught up in a world where I talk of turning the sands of the middle east into glass because of my hatred of sand niggers, ragheads and Muslims.
Forgive me God and all you progressive liberals who are better and smarter than everyone else.
You are in a position to get on a high horse and teach me about hate?
Which Jew have I bombed?
Which Jew have I driven from his homeland?
Is Bill Kristol a loyal American? Tell me in what way this guy is loyal to America. You accuse me of hating Jews rather than stating facts so tell me how Bill Kristol is loyal to America. What am I supposed to say about Bill Kristol? What should happen to him. Should he not be hanged for treason? If not then please explain to me why not? Can you do that?
Does Bill Kristol hate America? Does that matter or is the only thing that shows up on your senstive radar those who hate the jews. Never mind who they hate even if its us.
Do you ever wonder or question whether a Zionist Jew hates anybody or are such thoughts reserved for people such as myself because you have double standards and you talk out of your asses.
Am I allowed to influence the Israeli government and media the way Zionists are allowed to influence mine?
Am I allowed to sabotage the state of Israel from within the way Zionists are allowed to sabotage America?
What response to Zionism are Americans allowed? What reaction to a holocaust against Israel's enemies are we allowed to express.
Is a holocaust something that we should gently disagree with in a mild manner because to call it what it is and to label its leaders nazis is not acceptable if the jews have their fingerprints all over it.
Is it ok to call a German a Nazi but the very ones who have made that word so aborrant do not derserve to be called it even if they do the same things.
This is not fair. You tell me I am wrong. Does your saying that make it so.
If I am so wrong that you would flag my post then why is it that not one of you has answered one of my questions.
There is something very wrong when you condemn a person but you cannot be specific about one thing they are being condemed for.
I think I am condemed as an excuse to censor me.
I think you cannot debate me. I think you cannot make a case on behalf of Jews and Israel because there is no defense.
If Americans make long term plans against the navy of China that is legtimate planning for our futures.
If Jews make long term plans for the state of Israel but carry out those plans thru foreign governments like America or Germany or Britian or France then that is conspiracy.
- How can I champion the Palestinian cause without opposing Jews in America. -
Tell me.
- You have an obligation to answer that question. -
Who are you to tell me what I must stand for and what I must oppose. - Tell me.
The way you set the debate up and the rules you play by makes it impossible for Americans to even debate Zionism.
Let me repeat that.
The way you set the debate up and the rules you play by makes it impossible for Americans to even debate Zionism.
Do you realize how impossible it is to debate Zionism in America?
Because of people like you.
What right do you have? Am I not equal under the Constitution? Is this your idea of progressive? You think highly of yourselves as liberals. You do not even understand the poison that you spread across this nation and the way in which you are strangling America.
Which other group in America has as much power as Jews?
Name that group. Name that group. name that group.
And yet you enforce a structure in which the Jews cannot even be debated. Even tho we are committing a holocaust!
As long as we can never have a level playing field the jews will always win the debates, the cultural wars and the political wars.
For the sake of argument. Please tell me when we are not allowed to express hatred against people in online debates. Have you ever condemned others for trashing Christians and expressing hated of them and calling them every name in the book.
Have you ever censored someone for expressing hatred of Arabs and calling them terrorists.
Have you ever censored people for stereotying southern people and calling us names.
Tell me when you ever censored someone for expressing hatred against non Jews. Name one time.
Do you live in a world where everyone loves everyone else. So what if someone did hate Jews. So what? I am asking you, so what? What does that mean? ARe Jews the only people on the planet who are not allowed to be hated? Why?
What is this? Ah ha! We caught you! You hate Jews! We knew it! ARe you kidding me.
You think you can win a debate by ah ha you hate jews. You haven't won anything you have just censored another American who has as much right to speak as you do.
Think of that the next time you think of southerners getting a rope and lynching someone. You are enforcing mob rule and mob mentality.
Because you are at a loss when it comes to words, ideas and thoughts regarding Jews and Israel. You must fall back on the conditioning that Jewish propaganda has made you into. That makes a very good rope.
When we bomb middle east nations are the first words out of your mouths "oh my, we hate Arabs". When a movie comes out entitled the Beverly Hillbillies are the first words out of your mouthes "oh dear Jews in hollywood hate southern people"? GEt real.
The only time hate is ever brought up is when someone takes on the jews. You are so conditioned by propaganda you are a threat to yourseleves and America.
Why is there condemnation of me but there is no condemnation of the leaders of the democratic party when they approve of a "war" aganist people who are innocent and who have never done anything to us.
Have I not spoken out in defense of the United States Constitution. You tell me. Tell me why I am condemed and accused of hatred by the likes of you.
Why must Jews be protected when they are doing so much harm. Why must everyone be held accountable for their actions but Jews are not to be held accountable. Why must I be accused and what makes you fit to judge me.
Couldn't we solve our problems by making the USA into an Aryan Christian nation?
If such states are good enough for the jews why are they not good enough for us.
Why are they not good enough for us? Why?
When Barak Obama champions the Jewish state is he not treading down a dangerous path. Do leaders and people like the Jews not begin to believe that they are in control after being sucessful for a while.
What if Americans feel threatened by the wave of new immigrants who come here in such numbers that they do not assimilate. What if a new Lou Dobbs type leader rises up and becomes popular. What if that leader calls for the United States to be aryan and Christian.
What would you pious liberals in this forum who have censored me tell that leader and his followers.
After the first shock of realizing that the masses who have been stirred to a blood lust against non-whites in the middle east, were not firmly under his control, what would Barak Obama tell them. What would the jews tell them.
Can i put my finger upon every Zionist Jew that is a threat to us and tell you everything that person does. No I cannot. I must speak in general terms so that you can then accuse me of wanting to get rid of all Jews. Very convenient.
I want to be able to oppose the Jews just as I would oppose the Christian right. Unfortuanately there are two sets of standards. One for everyone else and one for the jews.
Have the Jews not been able to get people put into prison for denying the holocaust? Is that real power on the world stage or is that Judeocentrism. YOu tell me.
You do not even see the power of the Jews when they are working thru you when you censor me.
I feel sorry for you.
The rightwing is correct when it accuses some people of being haters of America. Even if they don't know exactly who these people are. At least I don't hate America. If that counts for anything any more.
If I were loyal to Mexico or Israel you would call that progressive and salute me. Defense of America is labeled as racism today. You are the ones who deserve to be censored. The only problem is I don't censor others. I welcome the challege of debating them. Thats the American way even if its not the Jews' way.
If they can change my mind then I am willing to allow my mind to grow and learn. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work. Which Jew have I attempted to censor. Haven't I asked questions and pleaded for Jews and others to exchange ideas with me.
I am treated the same way Arafat and every other Palestinian is treated by the israelis. They don't want debate and fairness. EVidently neither do you. It could be because you don't have a leg to stand on.
I recommend ifamericansknew.org and the newsletters at informationclearinghouse.info for those who want to get facts.
Forgive me that I do not hate the right people.
Forgive me for not hating America sufficiently enough to allow it to be destroyed and its Consitution trashed for the convenince of Jews.
Forgive me for not allowing myself to be caught up in a world where I talk of turning the sands of the middle east into glass because of my hatred of sand niggers, ragheads and Muslims.
Forgive me God and all you progressive liberals who are better and smarter than everyone else.
You are in a position to get on a high horse and teach me about hate?
Which Jew have I bombed?
Which Jew have I driven from his homeland?
Is Bill Kristol a loyal American? Tell me in what way this guy is loyal to America. You accuse me of hating Jews rather than stating facts so tell me how Bill Kristol is loyal to America. What am I supposed to say about Bill Kristol? What should happen to him. Should he not be hanged for treason? If not then please explain to me why not? Can you do that?
Does Bill Kristol hate America? Does that matter or is the only thing that shows up on your senstive radar those who hate the jews. Never mind who they hate even if its us.
Do you ever wonder or question whether a Zionist Jew hates anybody or are such thoughts reserved for people such as myself because you have double standards and you talk out of your asses.
Am I allowed to influence the Israeli government and media the way Zionists are allowed to influence mine?
Am I allowed to sabotage the state of Israel from within the way Zionists are allowed to sabotage America?
What response to Zionism are Americans allowed? What reaction to a holocaust against Israel's enemies are we allowed to express.
Is a holocaust something that we should gently disagree with in a mild manner because to call it what it is and to label its leaders nazis is not acceptable if the jews have their fingerprints all over it.
Is it ok to call a German a Nazi but the very ones who have made that word so aborrant do not derserve to be called it even if they do the same things.
This is not fair. You tell me I am wrong. Does your saying that make it so.
If I am so wrong that you would flag my post then why is it that not one of you has answered one of my questions.
There is something very wrong when you condemn a person but you cannot be specific about one thing they are being condemed for.
I think I am condemed as an excuse to censor me.
I think you cannot debate me. I think you cannot make a case on behalf of Jews and Israel because there is no defense.
If Americans make long term plans against the navy of China that is legtimate planning for our futures.
If Jews make long term plans for the state of Israel but carry out those plans thru foreign governments like America or Germany or Britian or France then that is conspiracy.
- How can I champion the Palestinian cause without opposing Jews in America. -
Tell me.
- You have an obligation to answer that question. -
Who are you to tell me what I must stand for and what I must oppose. - Tell me.
The way you set the debate up and the rules you play by makes it impossible for Americans to even debate Zionism.
Let me repeat that.
The way you set the debate up and the rules you play by makes it impossible for Americans to even debate Zionism.
Do you realize how impossible it is to debate Zionism in America?
Because of people like you.
What right do you have? Am I not equal under the Constitution? Is this your idea of progressive? You think highly of yourselves as liberals. You do not even understand the poison that you spread across this nation and the way in which you are strangling America.
Which other group in America has as much power as Jews?
Name that group. Name that group. name that group.
And yet you enforce a structure in which the Jews cannot even be debated. Even tho we are committing a holocaust!
As long as we can never have a level playing field the jews will always win the debates, the cultural wars and the political wars.
For the sake of argument. Please tell me when we are not allowed to express hatred against people in online debates. Have you ever condemned others for trashing Christians and expressing hated of them and calling them every name in the book.
Have you ever censored someone for expressing hatred of Arabs and calling them terrorists.
Have you ever censored people for stereotying southern people and calling us names.
Tell me when you ever censored someone for expressing hatred against non Jews. Name one time.
Do you live in a world where everyone loves everyone else. So what if someone did hate Jews. So what? I am asking you, so what? What does that mean? ARe Jews the only people on the planet who are not allowed to be hated? Why?
What is this? Ah ha! We caught you! You hate Jews! We knew it! ARe you kidding me.
You think you can win a debate by ah ha you hate jews. You haven't won anything you have just censored another American who has as much right to speak as you do.
Think of that the next time you think of southerners getting a rope and lynching someone. You are enforcing mob rule and mob mentality.
Because you are at a loss when it comes to words, ideas and thoughts regarding Jews and Israel. You must fall back on the conditioning that Jewish propaganda has made you into. That makes a very good rope.
When we bomb middle east nations are the first words out of your mouths "oh my, we hate Arabs". When a movie comes out entitled the Beverly Hillbillies are the first words out of your mouthes "oh dear Jews in hollywood hate southern people"? GEt real.
The only time hate is ever brought up is when someone takes on the jews. You are so conditioned by propaganda you are a threat to yourseleves and America.
Why is there condemnation of me but there is no condemnation of the leaders of the democratic party when they approve of a "war" aganist people who are innocent and who have never done anything to us.
Have I not spoken out in defense of the United States Constitution. You tell me. Tell me why I am condemed and accused of hatred by the likes of you.
Why must Jews be protected when they are doing so much harm. Why must everyone be held accountable for their actions but Jews are not to be held accountable. Why must I be accused and what makes you fit to judge me.
Couldn't we solve our problems by making the USA into an Aryan Christian nation?
If such states are good enough for the jews why are they not good enough for us.
Why are they not good enough for us? Why?
When Barak Obama champions the Jewish state is he not treading down a dangerous path. Do leaders and people like the Jews not begin to believe that they are in control after being sucessful for a while.
What if Americans feel threatened by the wave of new immigrants who come here in such numbers that they do not assimilate. What if a new Lou Dobbs type leader rises up and becomes popular. What if that leader calls for the United States to be aryan and Christian.
What would you pious liberals in this forum who have censored me tell that leader and his followers.
After the first shock of realizing that the masses who have been stirred to a blood lust against non-whites in the middle east, were not firmly under his control, what would Barak Obama tell them. What would the jews tell them.
Can i put my finger upon every Zionist Jew that is a threat to us and tell you everything that person does. No I cannot. I must speak in general terms so that you can then accuse me of wanting to get rid of all Jews. Very convenient.
I want to be able to oppose the Jews just as I would oppose the Christian right. Unfortuanately there are two sets of standards. One for everyone else and one for the jews.
Have the Jews not been able to get people put into prison for denying the holocaust? Is that real power on the world stage or is that Judeocentrism. YOu tell me.
You do not even see the power of the Jews when they are working thru you when you censor me.
I feel sorry for you.
The rightwing is correct when it accuses some people of being haters of America. Even if they don't know exactly who these people are. At least I don't hate America. If that counts for anything any more.
If I were loyal to Mexico or Israel you would call that progressive and salute me. Defense of America is labeled as racism today. You are the ones who deserve to be censored. The only problem is I don't censor others. I welcome the challege of debating them. Thats the American way even if its not the Jews' way.
If they can change my mind then I am willing to allow my mind to grow and learn. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work. Which Jew have I attempted to censor. Haven't I asked questions and pleaded for Jews and others to exchange ideas with me.
I am treated the same way Arafat and every other Palestinian is treated by the israelis. They don't want debate and fairness. EVidently neither do you. It could be because you don't have a leg to stand on.
I recommend ifamericansknew.org and the newsletters at informationclearinghouse.info for those who want to get facts.
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