Office copy vs numbered

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Office copy vs numbered

1Pellias
Ago 10, 2016, 9:20 am

Is the difference important to you?

(Naturally a office copy can be seen as more personal, for others it`s the limitation number that matters)

Thanks

2Django6924
Ago 10, 2016, 10:28 am

It makes no difference to me. Condition is all that really matters.

3astropi
Editado: Ago 11, 2016, 2:34 am

It does make a difference to me. If I'm purchasing a signed and numbered limited edition I like to have the numbered book, well, numbered. I personally would not purchase a LE that was not numbered -it makes me feel as if the book is incomplete. Now, if I received a copy as a present for whatever reason from the publisher/author, that would be a different matter.

4Pellias
Ago 11, 2016, 4:32 am

Thanks, nice to get some viewpoints. I see them around, those office copies, and i was curious what sort of love (or hate) they were getting from collectors

Office books tend to be stamped, showing them to be 1/25 or something presentation copies. So, it is in fact a sort of limitation number present there (but i see what you mean), some are signed for those who care.

In my head, the worst thing is a bookplate, but there are probably ways to remove them also - most things can be fixed

- -

The reason i asked: I was into `The last of the mohicans`which i bought yesterday. A presentation copy, stamped to be 1/25. With a cracked spine (i can see myself having this volume rebound sometime in the future, that`s why the spine cracks didn`t matter - no problem with the text block)

I am not buying LEC`s for investment (and will only get a selected number of them), but maybe fix up a few of them sometime in the future. As said have some rebound etc .. But that`s another discussion :)

5BuzzBuzzard
Editado: Ago 11, 2016, 3:19 pm

Office copies are neither more desirable nor they bother me. I would not hesitate to get one that is in the right condition at the right price. My copy of Martian Chronicles is signed and unnumbered, which I am also okay with.

I actually like bookplates. Most are tasty plus I enjoy researching the individual. One of my LEC books belonged to Grover Batts, who was a notable Manuscript Historian at the Library of Congress. His obituary states that Mr. Batts amassed a significant American prints collection, which along with the largest medallion collection in the United States, was generously donated to the Academy Art Museum in Easton, MD. He never learned how to drive a car and lived one block away from the Capitol Hill Library since 1959. Here is a 2013 interview with him, describing among other things how he organized the papers of Alexander Graham Bell and handled a piece of paper with a sketch of what we know now as the modern telephone: http://www.capitolhillhistory.org/interviews/2013/Batts,%20Grover.pdf

6featherwate
Editado: Ago 11, 2016, 3:18 pm

> 4 I'm not sure bookplates can always be removed without leaving a trace. All too often the space where they were is uglier than the plates themselves.
But then like BuzzBuzzard I rather like Ex Libris stickers, because I like being able to put a name to a previous owner, even when their choice is hilariously pretentious (there are, after all, worse attributes than self-importance - I wonder what Stalin's bookplates were like...).
And, of course, the plates themselves can be miniature works of art, whether by known artists like (for example) Lynd Ward, Clare Leighton, J J Lankes, Anatoly Kalashnikov, Matisse and Phil May, or by a host of less well-known or unknown ones.
Mind you, there's no pleasure to had from any bookplate situated thus: and there should be a special circle in hell for anyone who dares slap a book-plate on any of Don Floyd's magnificent end-papers.

7astropi
Ago 11, 2016, 3:45 pm

What's the point of book plates? I've often wondered, and come to the conclusion that it's vanity.

"I have to have MY name on this book to show that it belongs to ME!"

Me, me, me.... book plates are like selfies for books. Blah!

http://time.com/247/millennials-the-me-me-me-generation/

8Pellias
Ago 11, 2016, 3:56 pm

Godness. I do not know who this Yvonne is. But i know it is a difference to get a bookplate from say, well, Stalin to John or Jane Doe

If i find a bookplate with Stalins name on it in `little women` that will make me curious (yes, i have it. The pink plasticbound classics from B&N - don`t tell anyone)

I know that some of you are picky when it comes to office copies, but it`s also good to know it`s not a `no no no, you can`t buy a office copy, are you ... dumb or something` i am relieved about that. What i think is so strange, is that LEC are often so .. well, relative cheap, but that`s another discussion. Well, good for us .. It`s truly fascinating to be enabled. I will get me Bill R Majure book on LEC to learn more on these facinating books

Halleluja! :)

9Pellias
Ago 11, 2016, 3:58 pm

>7 astropi: I get panic, stressed just looking at that frontis

10Pellias
Ago 13, 2016, 3:28 pm

>5 BuzzBuzzard: Thank you for the story by the way Buzz. Didn`t mean to seem like i didn`t care. Special stories are always appreciated in my mind. If one doesn`t appreciate them. They stop coming :)

11Django6924
Ago 14, 2016, 9:43 am

>7 astropi: "What's the point of book plates? I've often wondered, and come to the conclusion that it's vanity. "

I usually try to exercise a little more charity when wondering why people do things. As someone who has in the past loaned books to others and never got them back--indeed forgot I had loaned them and to whom until years later I wanted to reread them--I would say that bookplates are a means for some people of helping keep track of a favorite book. Now I have always believed that books are not to be hoarded, and that the enjoyment one derives from a favorite book is increased when it can be shared with someone else.

12Constantinopolitan
Ago 14, 2016, 4:02 pm

>11 Django6924: I haven't written my name inside a book for many years. In my younger days I used to and when I found my own stolen books in a second-hand bookshop I had no trouble proving ownership.

13featherwate
Ago 15, 2016, 1:25 pm

>7 astropi:
As the article says, narcissism, outsourcing one's superego to one's parents, etc aren't the creation of the new millennial me-mes: they're traits which have been around "at least since the Reformation, when Martin Luther told Christians they didn’t need the church to talk to God, and became more pronounced[...]in the Romantic period, when artists stopped using their work to celebrate God and started using it to express themselves."
Apparently the printed Ex Libris label followed much the same path, beginning with a crude woodcut in the 15thC and entering a more elaborate phase in the 1790s so that what was once a simple statement of ownership (like Constantinopolitan's) could also be a platform for a little (or a lot of) self-promotion.
And yet, and yet....I don't think showing off is most people's motive for bookplating. People who keep books - as opposed to borrowing them from libraries or dumping them on charity shops after reading them - do so because they like or even love them and would rather they weren't misappropriated by their friends and similar unscrupulous persons. Indeed, if your declaration of vanity:
"I have to have MY name on this book to show that it belongs to ME!"
is re-written as:
"I have to have my name on this book to show that it belongs to me."
it becomes an unemphatic and, as Constantinopolitan's experience shows, sensible precaution.

Don't know what bookplates Hitler or Stalin favoured, but Mussolini had two kinds: the first being definitely of the 'Look at me!" type (I think “Nitor in adversum” means something like “I did it my way” or “Don't let the buggers get you down”):

while the second was of the simple "Hands off!" type:
albeit rather more trenchantly expressed than usual (I expect it's one of a pair, with the other one showing a bottle of castor oil.)
This is one of my favourite bookplates. It is very showy-offy, but in such an accomplished way that I can't but admire it:
It dates from the 1890s. 'S. Hollyer' is Samuel Hollyer, Jnr., a member of a famous 19thC dynasty of engravers, and he made it for himself. As he acknowledges within the picture it's a reworking of a famous Hogarth print:
I'd guess his use of 'booke' is a deliberate anachronism, since 'book' was the established usage by 1717 (OED).
I enjoyed the self-deprecating tone of the article!
Afterthought: if asserting one's ownership of a book comes across as narcissistic or even colonial, the only alternative I can see is to reverse the relationship and cover oneself with tattoos of one's favourite titles. However, whilst clarifying which partner is the dominant and which the enslaved, it doesn't really act as a deterrent to booksnatchers. On the other hand, it would certainly speed up identification if one ended up dead in a ditch...
Caucasian [fe]male, height 100cm, hair white unwashed, apparent age 45 going on 60. Eighty-two percent of skin area covered with multiple overlapping tattoos of what appear to be the titles of literary works. Inspector Bucket, District Street Crime Advisor, confirms these are definitely not gang-related tats or tramp stamps. Conclusion: we are confident that taken together with deceased's red-rimmed eyes, marked stoop and severe physical under-nourishment these markings suggest we should concentrate on collating misper reports on either
untenured academics attached to a minor league underfunded English faculty
or
members of an on-line book enablement group.


14astropi
Editado: Ago 15, 2016, 3:48 pm

13: "People who keep books - as opposed to borrowing them from libraries or dumping them on charity shops after reading them - do so because they like or even love them and would rather they weren't misappropriated by their friends and similar unscrupulous persons."

I do see your point, and yet, I can't help but think that if you love your book would you not know who borrowed it? And certainly you would not lend it to "unscrupulous persons" which begs the question: why bother with a bookplate to begin with? If an unscrupulous person took your book, he/she could of course remove said bookplate in which case if you recovered your book you would have a recovered and damaged book because you put your bookplate on it. Unless of course unscrupulous person was too dumb to remove bookplate before trying to sell stolen book -and I can see that happening.

All things considered I say "no thank you" to any bookplate and I still fail to see a real reason beyond ego.

15mazadan
Ago 15, 2016, 7:46 pm

Este miembro ha sido suspendido del sitio.

16astropi
Ago 15, 2016, 8:27 pm

15: Not worrying so much as... philosophizing :)

17Django6924
Ago 15, 2016, 9:54 pm

>14 astropi: "if you love your book would you not know who borrowed it?"

Well, I'm sure it's my senescence, but with close to 1500 books in my immediately accessible library, plus more than that in storage, and frequenting sites such as LT which introduce me to new and desirable books, and a growing (rather than shrinking) TBR stack, I sometimes have a hard time remembering what books I even have, let alone ones I may have loaned to friends or family. (And not to beg the question, I do love all my books--even ones I've given away (after all, if you love something, you should be able to let it go...).

18featherwate
Ago 15, 2016, 10:37 pm

>14 astropi: Well, I didn't really expect to change your mind!...I just felt it too sweeping to accept all bookplates as the outward and visible manifestations of a rampant ego. I still do.
(I don't use them myself.)

19mazadan
Ago 15, 2016, 11:18 pm

Este miembro ha sido suspendido del sitio.

20Constantinopolitan
Ago 16, 2016, 2:45 am

>13 featherwate: another addition to my vocabulary, sir! misper, police slang for a missing person, a phrase recorded from the 19th century.
Mussolini's axe bookplate neatly references the symbol of fascism cutting through the tangle of difficulties. Now, if Donald Trump had a bookplate...

22Constantinopolitan
Ago 16, 2016, 9:23 am

>21 astropi: Of course he also has his own coat of arms.
I'm going to Edinburgh next week and shall be tempted to visit the Lord Lyon, King of Arms for an interpretation of the heraldry http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/CCC_FirstPage.jsp

That finest of Edinburgh school teachers, Miss Jean Brodie, refers to this ancient office, when she tells her girls that rather than give up teaching she would decline an offer of marriage:

"But were I to receive a proposal of marriage tomorrow...from the Lord Lyon King of Arms, I would decline it."




23featherwate
Ago 16, 2016, 11:46 am

>20 Constantinopolitan: 'recorded from the nineteenth century' - now that does surprise me. I assumed it was contemporary, one of those words you find you know but not how or when - it's usually from a tv cop show or police procedural novel.
Logically there's no reason to suppose Victorian policemen/medics/fighting men didn't distance themselves from unpleasant realities by adopting the kind of brisk professional shorthand favoured by their successors today. But we won't know that, unless such words turn up in the mainstream literature through which most of us experience the period.
That makes it hard to imagine the drowsy constabulary of Cloisterham listing Edwin Drood as a misper, but easy to imagine Holmes's icy glare and reproachfully raised eyebrow had an exasperated Inspector Lestrade so referred to the vanished Miss Hatty Moran.[1]. She may only have been an American, but dammit, she was still a woman. (Conan Doyle's son Adrian remembered being slapped hard (as an adult) by his father for speaking disrespectfully of a woman.)
[1] In The Adventure of the Noble Bachelor (which cries out to be turned into a chamber opera called The Scarpered Bride).

>21 astropi: Wonderful!

24Pellias
Ago 16, 2016, 4:36 pm

Just asking to get the thread back for just one second, and rewrite my question, then you can write all you want about bookmarks. It`s about montly letters .. i know you have them in a secret valve or something, but this question is when you buy your LEC`s .. do you always seek out a volume with the monthly letter in it, or are you happy enough with a scanned version?

How much do you value a monthly letter?

And in very short, what is a sandglass (often mentioned with the monthly letter?

Thanks

25kdweber
Ago 16, 2016, 4:47 pm

>24 Pellias: The Sandglass is the Heritage Press (HP) version of the Monthly Letter.

I prefer to own an original copy of the Monthly Letter but am unwilling to pay more then $5-$10 more to get a copy with the Letter. Likewise, I prefer HPs with the Sandglass but am unwilling to pay more than $1-$2 more for such a copy. It is generally harder to find this ephemera in older books. The LEC has published a separate volume than contains the first 50 Monthly Letters. Since I own a copy, I don't really care much about finding a Monthly Letter in the corresponding edition. I enjoy reading the letters, so if I don't have a copy, it's nice being able to read them on our shared site.

26Pellias
Editado: Ago 16, 2016, 5:18 pm

>25 kdweber: `It is generally harder to find this ephemera in older books` It seems so .. If i find a book i want, and choose to not buy it because it doesn`t contain a letter .. well, i could miss out .. collectible value of a complete set, i see that. Book and letter .. but, as you wrote, it seems rare(r) on older G. Macy editions, and those that have also knows how to price them .. anyway. It`s in the eye of the beholder as anything about collecting old(er) books i reckon .. to buy a book without a letter, it may seem like it`s missing something, and that something will always be there when one looke at the book and therefore degrade it .. Luckily i have just started out, so the errors is therefore very few, if any. Thanks.

The worth on jackeded books are in general mostly where the jackets are present, where they are not, there is a massive price reduction. Those letters don`t have that effect it seems?

27BuzzBuzzard
Ago 16, 2016, 6:17 pm

>26 Pellias: The good news is that in this game you set the rules. My psychological limit for monthly letter is $15. The other day I talked to a book dealer about an LEC he had for sale. The book was complete but turned out to be in a not so desirable condition. When I asked him if he is willing to sell the monthly letter separately he said "absolutely not!", but "as a gift absolutely!".

28Django6924
Ago 16, 2016, 7:52 pm

>25 kdweber:

Agree--I always want a copy with the ML, but some sellers are preposterous in their demands. One e-Bay seller had a batch he was putting up for sometimes $20 or more per letter. As much as I enjoy these ephemera, kdweber's price limits make good sense.

>26 Pellias: "The worth on jackeded books are in general mostly where the jackets are present, where they are not, there is a massive price reduction. Those letters don`t have that effect it seems?"

Mad dogs and Englishmen may go out in the mid-day sun, but it takes a special kind of insanity when it comes to the value of dust-jackets. I once saw a first edition of Tobacco Road at a booksellers convention with a price tag of $5000. When I asked the seller if it had, perhaps, a valuable inscription, he replied "no, but it has the original dust jacket!" (which was a trifle rough around the edges). But to answer your question, the ML did not come with the book, but was sent out in a separate mailer, and in general, their absence is not a reason for a massive price reduction (nor their presence for a massive price increase, unless the seller is being overly...optimistic).

29astropi
Ago 16, 2016, 8:28 pm

To me, the Letter is an integral part of the book. I understand and respect if others have completely different viewpoints, but I will no longer purchase an LEC unless it includes the Letter (well, OK, if the book was at an excellent price I would purchase it, since I would try to find the Letter later :P -really though, the Letter goes into "behind the scenes" detail which for me makes it such that the book and Letter are like soulmates...

30Pellias
Ago 17, 2016, 4:54 pm

Thanks all. In the eye of the beholder then. I wil try to find a volume with the original letter in next time. But if i don`t, i think i would be okay with a copy or the book >25 kdweber: mentioned. I will seek that one out - and hope i find it. With old volumes one have to be a little creative sometime. The text block is the most important for me, as i would like to make some ugly ducklings a swan someday
>27 BuzzBuzzard: Not so easy to find those characters on the web maybe, but i will certainly try it out. A great man
>28 Django6924: Funny story. It was all in the jacket for that seller, and you wouldn`t have bought it without it :)
>29 astropi: I understand you want the whole package. Are you okay with a copy? The behind the scenes you could get elsewhere, but you want a copy of the letter dated back as old as the book, a no nonsense collector there ;)

31astropi
Ago 17, 2016, 11:31 pm

30: I also gently insert the Letter between pages and use it as a bookmark :)

32kdweber
Ago 18, 2016, 2:05 pm

>31 astropi: I put the letter, announcement, and any glassine into the slipcase while I read the book. I put the slipcase back on the shelf open side out so I know where to return the book when I'm done.

33EclecticIndulgence
Ago 18, 2016, 2:33 pm

Este mensaje fue borrado por su autor.

34kdweber
Ago 18, 2016, 2:56 pm

>33 EclecticIndulgence: I only keep the glassines that are in really good condition. Since I shelve my LECs with the slipcase facing out, one can't see the actual book. It looks uglier on the shelf but better protects the binding.

35Lukas1990
Feb 14, 2021, 4:19 pm

A LEC book is not numbered but it is marked by "K.W." is that an office book then? And what's an office book in general?

36Glacierman
Editado: Feb 16, 2021, 2:38 pm

>35 Lukas1990: Office books are also known as "publisher's copies," copies which the publisher holds back for their own purposes, usually as gifts to the artist, author or others involved in the production of the book. Sometimes they come with an inscription from the publisher.

I find these copies of special interest to me, as they are part of the title's publishing history. Sometimes they are in less than stellar condition, and to be honest, such a copy would have to have something extra special about it to overcome the poor condition before I would plunk my coins down for it.

As an example of an office copy, I have as a second copy of the LEC Froissart's Chronicles one that has the LEC blind stamp designating it as such, the illustrator Henry C. Pitz's signature on the colophon page AND in addition, his signature on the front free end paper. The book is not in pristine condition, and has seen use, and normally I would have passed it by, BUT the presence of that additional signature on the end paper indicates that it was most probably the personal copy of the illustrator and that gives it additional interest and therefore value to me.

There has been for sale on e-Bay for some time an office copy of an LEC book (don't remember the title) that is in such terrible shape that I was not tempted in the least to acquire it.

In summary, office or publisher's copies of LEC books are of interest to me as an adjunct to my acquisition activities, as I am a collector as well as a reader.

Your "K. W." copy is probably an office copy. Look for an LEC blind stamp on the colophon page. It may be very faint.

37Lukas1990
Editado: Feb 16, 2021, 3:16 pm

>36 Glacierman: Thank you very much for such an exhaustive explanation, Glacierman.

I don't own the book... yet. It is described as 'near fine' but I would rate it only as 'very good' judging from the couple of photos that the seller provided. It is for sale right now. I ordered another 'fine' copy but still haven't received the approval of my order and I am afraid that the seller will ask even more $ for shipping to Lithuania, where I'm from. If they do so, I'll probably order the 'K. W.' copy.

38Whaiwhakaiho
Editado: Feb 23, 5:15 am

>36 Glacierman: My copy of Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton has a blind stamp reading "THIS IS ONE OF 25 PRESENTATION COPIES. OUT OF ISSUE"

The book is signed by the artist Lawrence Beall Smith and above his signature, instead of a copy number, there is hand-written text reading "L.C." under THIS IS COPY NUMBER. I would post a photo but am unsure how to do this in LibraryThing.

The monthly letter is not included and further the monthly letter doesn't seem to be available on ironjaw's wonderful database or the new book club list. Would anyone be in a position to enlighten me on who "L.C." might be?

As this is my first contribution (take that word very lightly), let me express my gratitude to Django and ALL the members of this forum. I have greatly enjoyed reading your comments. Thank you for introducing me to your wonderful world. I find great value in so many things about it, not least the standard of discourse here. The books I am only beginning to enjoy...

39Glacierman
Feb 22, 1:25 am

>38 Whaiwhakaiho: Not sure who "L. C." might be. Someone on the office staff, perhaps?

Anybody else have an answer?

40wcarter
Feb 22, 2:25 am

41Glacierman
Feb 22, 11:08 am

>40 wcarter: I thought that, too, so maybe that's it. OTOH.......

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