THE KING IN YELLOW Discussion Thread

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THE KING IN YELLOW Discussion Thread

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1artturnerjr
Editado: Jul 12, 2016, 12:32 am

Hello and welcome the discussion thread for The King in Yellow.

Late last year, a couple other members of this group (.Monkey. and Petroglyph) and I noticed that we all had Robert W. Chambers' 1895 short story collection The King in Yellow on our TBR lists for 2016. Since we were all planning on reading it anyway, we thought it might be fun to do a group discussion of it and invite others to join in, especially since so many folks have become interested in the book in the wake of the acclaimed HBO series True Detective, which made frequent allusions to the book.

If you're joining us, here's what you need to know:

START DATE

The start date for our discussion is the week of August 28th of this year. We will begin our discussion with the first two stories in the collection ("The Repairer of Reputations" and "The Mask"), so you don't have to have whole collection read by then - just those two stories.

PACE/SCHEDULE

Right now, we're looking at discussing two stories for each discussion period. I'd like to space these a couple of weeks apart, so everybody has time to read them before we start each discussion. There are ten stories in the book, so the schedule should look something like this:

Discussion 1 (week of August 28):
1st and 2nd stories ("The Repairer of Reputations" and "The Mask")

Discussion 2 (week of September 11):
3rd and 4th stories ("In the Court of the Dragon" and "The Yellow Sign")

Discussion 3 (week of September 25):
5th and 6th stories ("The Demoiselle d'Ys" and "The Prophets' Paradise")

Discussion 4 (week of October 9)
7th and 8th stories ("The Street of the Four Winds" and "The Street of the First Shell")

Discussion 5 (week of October 23)
9th and 10th stories ("The Street of Our Lady of the Fields" and "Rue Barrée")

That would mean we would wrap up our discussion right before Halloween, which seems appropriate. However, if this pace seems too fast or too slow for anyone, let me know below and we can probably make adjustments.

WHERE TO GET THE BOOK

The King in Yellow is in the public domain; because of this, it is freely available to read online and/or download to anyone with an Internet connection. Here are links to just a few of the sites where it's available:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8492
https://amzn.com/B00847UYWA
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_King_in_Yellow
https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/c/chambers/robert_w/king_in_yellow/

Other sites can be found here:

https://www.google.com/webhp?source=search_app#q=the+king+in+yellow+free+ebook

If you prefer a print or audio version of the book, these are also widely available:

https://www.librarything.com/work/51414/get/109062080

There are also free audio versions available online (e.g., https://youtu.be/kSYjHHmwbRI).

That's all I've got for now. Please feel free to post any questions or comments you might have below.

Art

ETA: Edited "START DATE" section; added "PACE/SCHEDULE" section

2.Monkey.
Jul 1, 2016, 2:23 am

My own copy is one of the Wordsworth Classic editions -- their avg price is around 3bucks, so anyone who prefers paper, there's your cheapie option! ;)

3artturnerjr
Jul 1, 2016, 1:14 pm

>2 .Monkey.:

Those Wordsworth editions are very handsome paperbacks for the price; I own a few of them myself (not their edition of The King in Yellow, though).

I'll be reading it in the "Barnes & Noble Library of Essential Reading" edition. Here's what it looks like:



The back cover copy reads (in part) as follows:

"Woe! woe to you who are crowned with crown of the King in Yellow!"

First published in 1895, this collection of short stories by Robert W. Chambers takes its title from The King in Yellow, a fictional drama so laced with "the essence of purest poison" that it drives anyone foolish enough to read it insane. Although suppressed by authorities shortly after its publication, copies of the play continue to seduce and destroy unsuspecting men and women who fall under its spell.

The King in Yellow was a bestseller in its day, and was later praised by horror emeritus H.P. Lovecraft as a book that "achieves notable heights of cosmic horror." Its ten stories include "The Yellow Sign," considered by many critics to be one of the greatest tales of horror in the English language.


***

This edition was a little pricier than the Wordsworth ($9.95), but it has an introduction and endnotes by S.T. Joshi, who I'm a big fan of, so for me it was worth forking over the extra dough.

I also have eBook versions of TKiY from Amazon and Feedbooks (http://www.feedbooks.com/book/1376/the-king-in-yellow), just because. :)

Extensive information on the various editions of the book (print, eBook, and otherwise) can be found here:

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?25609

4LittleTaiko
Jul 4, 2016, 4:26 pm

Just requested a copy from the library and will try to have it read in time. One question - horror, at least how I envision it, really isn't my thing. Any ideas as to how scary this might be or what it could be compared to?

5artturnerjr
Jul 5, 2016, 12:35 am

>4 LittleTaiko:

Great! I think (think - we haven't really discussed it - wondering if Mel or anybody else has any input here) we are going to just discuss a couple of the stories at a time, so as long as you can get the first couple of stories in the collection in before 8/28, you should be able to join with us.

Any ideas as to how scary this might be or what it could be compared to?

Well, I've only read two of the stories in this collection: "The Repairer of Reputations" and "The Yellow Sign", so I'm maybe not the best person to ask. Regarding those stories, then: are they scary? Well, I haven't been actually scared scared by a (fictional) horror story since I was maybe 17 or 18, so no, I didn't find them to be scary. They are disturbing however: these stories ("The Repairer of Reputations" in particular) are reminiscent of the best work of H.P. Lovecraft and Philip K. Dick in that they have a way of making you question your fundamental suppositions about the nature of reality, particularly when read in the suitable surroundings with a willingness to meet the author halfway; in other words, if you give them a chance, they can really get under your skin. I don't really wanna say anymore than that - part of the fun of these kinds of groups is getting everybody's subjective responses to the work being discussed and I don't spoil that by saying too much about it before everyone's had a chance to read it.

6.Monkey.
Jul 5, 2016, 7:58 am

>4 LittleTaiko: I doubt that they will be "scary" the way I assume you mean; I think Art probably put it pretty well. Though I am the same, for me it's all just good fun...

>5 artturnerjr: That sounds like a logical way to do it to me. :)

7artturnerjr
Jul 5, 2016, 1:02 pm

>4 LittleTaiko:
>6 .Monkey.:

I should add (after I said I wasn't gonna say anymore about it hahaha) that this stuff is closer to psychological horror or what is sometimes called "quiet" horror than "splatterpunk"*; there isn't a lot of violence and gore, if that's something that concerns you.

>6 .Monkey.:

That sounds like a logical way to do it to me. :)

Okay, cool. I'll add that to the OP then. :)

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splatterpunk

8billiejean
Jul 7, 2016, 9:02 am

I got a copy on my kindle. So I guess I'm in.

9artturnerjr
Jul 8, 2016, 5:50 pm

>8 billiejean:

Hurray! 8)

10LittleTaiko
Jul 9, 2016, 4:04 pm

The books is on the way to my library for me to pick up soon. Should definitely be able to read some or all before the end of August.

11Petroglyph
Jul 12, 2016, 6:57 pm

Reading this on my ereader, courtesy of Project Gutenberg.

Given that I'm reading these on the beach, I can't say that I'm making much of an effort to set the right mood, I'm afraid, but so far (two stories in), I'm enjoying the book very much.

12artturnerjr
Jul 12, 2016, 11:12 pm

>11 Petroglyph:

Ha! Yeah, it's kind of the opposite of what I typically think of as a "beach read", but if it's working out for you, then that's the important thing (does that beach have yellow sand, perhaps?).

13Petroglyph
Jul 13, 2016, 5:51 pm

>12 artturnerjr:
does that beach have yellow sand, perhaps?

It does! *Groan!*



Fortunately, you cannot see "the twin suns sink behind the lake". This picture is taken early in the morning ;)

(Photo not mine; taken from Swedes in California.)

14abergsman
Jul 20, 2016, 9:52 am

Ooohhh....I have until August 28 to read the first two stories...I might try to fit this in at the end of summer. We'll see!

15artturnerjr
Ago 21, 2016, 1:00 am

Just a reminder that our discussion starts next week. I've started S.T. Joshi's brief introduction in the edition I'm reading the book in (see >3 artturnerjr:); hoping to have it and the first two stories done by the 28th.

>13 Petroglyph:

The horror! =:^O

>14 abergsman:

If you can join us, that'd be great! :)

16LittleTaiko
Ago 21, 2016, 9:19 pm

Fished the first story today and look forward to reading the next one this week so I'll be ready for the discussion.

17artturnerjr
Ago 21, 2016, 10:02 pm

19.Monkey.
Ago 23, 2016, 5:19 pm

Read the first 5 stories today. ...Interesting. I have to say, if Lovecraft is the lesser version of this (I've seen a ton of complaints about much of his writing, for various reasons), I'm a little worried about reading him, LOL. Will be finishing the book tomorrow I imagine. :)

20artturnerjr
Editado: Ago 23, 2016, 8:19 pm

>19 .Monkey.:

Great!

I'm not the world's leading authority on Chambers - I've only read two of his stories - but I have read most of Lovecraft's fiction. HPL is... different from the Chambers stuff I've read; he's more SFnal, more cosmic, particularly in the stuff he wrote shortly before he died (but also in middle-period stuff like "The Colour out of Space"). The main thing HPL got from Chambers is the notion of a book that can drive people insane (the title text in RWC's The King in Yellow; the Necronomicon in HPL's "Cthulhu Mythos" stories); that, and a fondness for lacunae in his work that he allows the reader's imagination to fill in. Speaking for myself, I find even HPL's half-assed stuff to be pretty interesting, and find the man himself to be the most fascinating figure in 20th-century American literature that I have yet encountered; I would recommended that anybody (and especially anybody interested in horror fiction) at least sample his work.

21RandyStafford
Ago 24, 2016, 12:04 am

I doubt I'll have time to re-read The King in Yellow to refresh my memory, so I won't be participating.

However, there is an interesting article in Issue 317 of the The New York Review of Science Fiction: "Raving on 'The Repairer of Reputations'" by Michael Andre-Driussi. You can get buy an e-book version for $2.99.

22.Monkey.
Ago 24, 2016, 4:09 am

>20 artturnerjr: Oh I will, I have The Complete Fiction of his, just haven't gotten to it yet. Which works out nice, as I always like to read the inspiration for stuff. :P

23artturnerjr
Ago 24, 2016, 4:29 pm

>21 RandyStafford:

Sorry you can't join us, Randy - your knowledge of this genre and era would have been very helpful here. I would have especially like to have picked your brain regarding Ambrose Bierce's influence on TKiY - another time, perhaps?

>22 .Monkey.:

That's actually a great choice for reading him - the first time I read the official HPL oeuvre all the way through was in that book. I like it that the stories are in chronological order by date of composition - it's interesting to see how Lovecraft developed as a writer.

24.Monkey.
Ago 24, 2016, 4:48 pm

If they weren't I'd still read them that way, hahaha. I always read everything chronologically when possible, it's the only thing that makes sense to me! xD

Finished TKiY this evening, quite the range of stories. Three of them I was rather "eh" about, the rest I thought were varying degrees of "not bad" to "pretty good," haha.

My edition's intro gives a slight mention of Bierce (it's only 5p, so there's just the one paragraph), saying Chambers took his mythical place names from three of Bierce's well-known horror stories, that he was obviously familiar with his work, and there are similarities with the tangential style that hints rather than states.

25artturnerjr
Ago 25, 2016, 9:59 am

A discussion of "The Repairer of Reputations" over at Tor.com I want to link to here before I lose track of it:

http://www.tor.com/2016/01/05/a-totally-unproblematic-utopia-the-repairer-of-rep...

26artturnerjr
Ago 25, 2016, 8:29 pm

>24 .Monkey.:

Finished TKiY this evening, quite the range of stories.

I just finished rereading "The Repairer of Reputations" and started "The Mask", so you're way ahead of me.

Here's what S.T. Joshi has to say about Bierce's influence on TKiY (and Bierce and Chambers' influence on Lovecraft) in his intro for the Barnes & Noble edition:

One phase of the inspiration for The King in Yellow... is sufficiently obvious. Chambers must have read Ambrose Bierce's collection Tales of Soldiers and Civilians (1891) - or the English edition of 1892, In the Midst of Life - shortly after his return to America from France, for he adopts certain cryptic allusions and names coined in some of Bierce's tales and appropriates them for his own. The focus of {the} first four tales in The King in Yellow is a mysterious drama (apparently in two acts) called The King in Yellow, which incites a peculiar fear and desperation on reading. Chambers has, however, willfully altered the components he derived from Bierce, and it is in any case not clear whether the Bierce influence really extends beyond these borrowed names. Bierce indeed created Carcosa, which he describes in "An Inhabitant of Carcosa" as some great city of the distant past. Chambers maintains this notion, but in Bierce Hali was simply a prophet who is "quoted" for the epigraphs of the tales "An Inhabitant of Carcosa" and "The Death of Halpin Frayser" (1891). Finally, Chambers borrows the term "Hastur" from Bierce; but whereas Bierce envisioned Hastur as a god of the shepherds (see "Haïta the Shepherd"), Chambers regards Hastur alternately as a place or a person. (It is to be noted that Lovecraft, when mentioning such things as Carcosa, the Lake of Hali, and the like in his own tales, was consciously following Chambers, although he knew full well the Biercian origin of these terms. His one mention of Hastur in "The Whisperer in Darkness" is entirely inconclusive, and it cannot be determined what he meant by this term.)

Note: All of the Bierce tales mentioned above (as well as such notable stories as "The Damned Thing" and "The Middle Toe of the Right Foot") can be found in his collection Can Such Things Be?, which is online here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4366

HPL's "The Whisperer in Darkness" is online here:

http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/wid.aspx

27artturnerjr
Editado: Ago 28, 2016, 9:20 pm

Hey, it's August 28th! I know .Monkey. and Petroglyph have the first two stories finished (at least) (I do too, actually) and Stacy has read the first one - how's everyone else coming along? Does anyone need more time to read these, or should we just go ahead and get started? Speak now or forever hold your peace! :)

28LittleTaiko
Ago 28, 2016, 9:54 pm

I finished the second one story yesterday and am eager for the discussions to start. So far I've liked both stories but enjoyed "The Mask" more.

29artturnerjr
Ago 28, 2016, 9:55 pm

>28 LittleTaiko:

Great! Anyone else?

30billiejean
Ago 29, 2016, 3:27 pm

I also finished both stories. And I also preferred the second. I'm wondering how many of the parts of the alternate history USA from the first story will be explored in the subsequent stories.

31artturnerjr
Ago 29, 2016, 6:09 pm

>30 billiejean:

Okay, cool - that's at least four of us that are ready to start then.

I'm wondering how many of the parts of the alternate history USA from the first story will be explored in the subsequent stories.

I don't know, actually. I know it's not dealt with in stories 2-4 - I've read all of those (although you will notice that the Boris character in "The Mask" is mentioned in passing in "TRoR").

32artturnerjr
Editado: Ago 30, 2016, 4:23 pm

Well, I'll go ahead and start the discussion; I think we've probably given everybody enough time to get on board that's going to.

******WARNING: HERE THERE BE SPOILERS! If you haven't read "The Repairer of Reputations" or "The Mask" yet, you probably don't want to read past this point in the thread.******

The Repairer of Reputations

Here's part of what I wrote about this story the first time I read back in 2012, for my weird fiction* reading group over at The Weird Tradition ("The Deep Ones")**:

Y'know, speaking for myself, I think I've gotten a bit hubristic regarding weird fiction. Over the course of the last four or five years, and particularly since joining this discussion group, I have immersed myself so heavily in the genre that I was actually starting to think that I had probably read all the really great masterpieces of the genre, or at least all the short-form ones. And then I come across a tale like "The Repairer of Reputations" and realize how wrong that is.

It may seem like I'm going into crazy hyperbole mode (as is my wont) over a story I just read for the first time three days ago, but as it stands right now, I've been thinking about this story basically nonstop since I read it, and I'm ready to say that I haven't been as impressed by a piece of weird fiction since I read "The White People"***, and that's my favorite weird story of all time. Much like that tale, "Repairer" strikes me as both remarkably avant-garde (an assessment shared by both David G. Hartwell (in his introduction to "Repairer" in his landmark anthology The Dark Descent) and the author of the Wikipedia article on the story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Repairer_of_Reputations#.22Anti-Story.22_Nature...)) and "singularly haunting and suggestive", as Lin Carter put it... In other words, it is both cerebral and visceral, stimulating to both the mind and the emotions, and extremely stimulating at that. If that doesn't make for great art, I don't know what does.


A little later on in the same thread I wrote this:

When I was reading "Repairer", I was reminded quite a bit of another work that has effected me profoundly - the movie Taxi Driver. On the face of it, that may seem rather odd, but if you dig below the surface a little, they're actually quite similar. Both stories feature protagonists with paranoid, messianic delusions and take place in a nightmarish New York setting. Both also derive a great deal of their power from their creators' ability to depict what these sorts of derangements feel like from inside their characters' heads with an unflinching intensity that can be difficult for the reader/viewer to take. I was also reminded quite a bit of the delirious metaphysical gamesmanship of Philip K. Dick when reading this - that queasy and profoundly unsettling realization that you have when reading his fiction that you don't have the slightest fucking idea what's really going on. Chambers is obviously a progenitor of {H.P. Lovecraft}'s; would it not be fair to say he's a progenitor of Dick's as well?

Reading the story again, it didn't pack quite the same punch - I did, after all, know how it was going to turn out this time - but it did still effect me pretty powerfully. I was again reminded of Taxi Driver, but it occurs to me that this is perhaps less a function of what the stories are about (although there are, I think, notable similarities in the characters, settings, and structures of both works) than the way that both works make me feel - that uneasy feeling of being stuck inside the head of a madman.

The Mask

This one didn't effect me as powerfully as "TRoR" did. In Joshi's introduction (see >26 artturnerjr: above), he describes this tale as "exquisitely beautiful", and though there are some truly poetic passages here, it just didn't have the same kind of cumulative impact on me that the first story did. I was surprised by the (relatively) happy ending, though - things don't usually end this well for the characters in Chambers' stories (or in weird fiction in general). The opening epigraph from TKiY (play) is pretty great, too.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weird_fiction
** https://www.librarything.com/topic/143418#3647534
*** short story by Arthur Machen: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25016/25016-h/25016-h.htm#Page_111

ETA: Fixed touchstones; made spoiler alert warning more obtrusive

33chibitika
Ago 29, 2016, 11:57 pm

**Spoilers** Just finished The Repairer of Reputations. I must say, I am quite disappointed that Hildred didn't really become king! This is a great piece showing a man's insanity from his perspective. That makes it real, very real, because this could happen to any one of us. It is this type of dark fiction that doesn't sit well with me, simply because it can really happen. Too close for comfort, some might say. I do like the undercurrent of The King Yellow. It raises this story above just a commentary on descent into madness.

34.Monkey.
Ago 30, 2016, 4:55 am

>32 artturnerjr: I also thought Repairer packed a much larger punch than Mask. Not to mention, I could see the still being alive angle coming a mile away, from the very start in fact, just wasn't sure how exactly it would play out. So that took away further from Mask, since I was really just waiting to see how it would happen rather than what was going to happen.

Personally, neither story thrilled me. They weren't bad by any means, but they didn't bowl me over, either. I thought the slow gradual reveal (even if you start getting a bit suspicious earlier, you can't be certain) in Repairer were pretty good, but I wasn't crazy about the ending. The plot was interesting, as were the two key characters. If I'd liked the ending I would probably have given it a 4 or 4.5, as it is, I'd give it 3.5, with a 3 for Mask.

35artturnerjr
Editado: Ago 30, 2016, 3:50 pm

>33 chibitika:

Welcome! Glad you enjoyed the story!

I must say, I am quite disappointed that Hildred didn't really become king!

It would have been a very different story if he had, wouldn't it?

This is a great piece showing a man's insanity from his perspective. That makes it real, very real, because this could happen to any one of us. It is this type of dark fiction that doesn't sit well with me, simply because it can really happen.

Well, you can kind of go back and forth about whether this is even a genre story at all, right? It is, at root, a horror story, but it's more akin to something like Psycho or The Silence of the Lambs - more terrifying, as you say, because people really do go insane and do (or attempt to do) horrific things. I mean, we don't know that the whole alt-history scenario that Hildred describes in such detail at the beginning of the story actually happened - he is the epitome of an unreliable narrator - the entire thing could be in his head!*

>34 .Monkey.:

Not to mention, I could see the still being alive angle coming a mile away, from the very start in fact, just wasn't sure how exactly it would play out.

See, I didn't. I just assumed everyone would come to a horrible end like they usually do in Chambers' stories. :)

I thought the slow gradual reveal (even if you start getting a bit suspicious earlier, you can't be certain) in Repairer were pretty good, but I wasn't crazy about the ending.

Yeah, there are clues pretty early on that you're not getting a real trustworthy, logical recounting of events from the narrator. For example, there's that wonderful non-sequitur in the long opening paragraph where we are told that

We had profited well by... the exclusion of foreign-born Jews as a measure of self-preservation, the settlement of the new independent negro state of Suanee, the checking of immigration, the new laws concerning naturalization, and the gradual centralization of power in the executive all contributed to national calm and prosperity.

This is followed a couple of sentences later by

...bigotry and intolerance were laid in their graves and kindness and charity began to draw warring sects together...

Hey?

I like the ending. I like dark endings - it's a big reason why I read so much of this kind of fiction. :)

If I'd liked the ending I would probably have given it a 4 or 4.5, as it is, I'd give it 3.5, with a 3 for Mask.

I'd give "TRoR" a solid 5/5 - it's still one of my favorite horror/weird fiction stories. Even the things that initially appear to be flaws (e.g., the often disjointed quality of the narrative) end up enhancing the overall effect of the tale. "The Mask" is probably more like a 4/5 for me.

*There's actually a clue about this in a later story ("The Yellow Sign") in TKiY, but I don't want to give it away until we get to that one.

36billiejean
Editado: Ago 30, 2016, 3:32 pm

I also have spoilers. And don't know how to hide them.

In Repairer of Reputations, it was interesting to me, also, that it was from the point of view of someone who is insane. And they do hint to that early on. It never occurred to me that the whole alt history of the USA angle might be in Hildred's mind. I was wondering if the cat was actually dangerous? The whole cat angle confused me. I kept wondering why there was so much discussion of the chamber for suicide, and if it would come up in greater detail later in another story.

I actually liked The Mask as a story pretty well. But I did not see the angle coming of the statues returning to life. I thought it was a far cry from putting a flower into to the solution to putting a bunny or even goldfish there. That rather repulsed me.

I don't read a lot of short stories, so this was a change of pace for me. I am enjoying it so far.

37.Monkey.
Ago 30, 2016, 4:46 pm

So, it's clear from here on in (from >32 artturnerjr:, that is), thar be spoilers, so yeah not gonna bother spoiler-tagging anymore.

>36 billiejean: Well there was the very pointed it happens in nature, very very slowly as things decay, but this special formula is instant!, and then that oh-so-odd inexplicable coloring, that just so happened to give the impression of blood in veins and a heart. It seemed to me, anyway, pretty clear that there must be life wrapped inside the instantaneous stone transformations. So what was left was, how will it be revealed, and what will the living things be like once it is discovered - will they be forever stuck but alive or somehow freed and then what, and such. I didn't think the interim between his getting better, and the reveal, was so interesting, it was more, okay let's get to the point already! Lol. But before that and when he returned to the house, it was decent, just fairly predictable.

38artturnerjr
Ago 30, 2016, 4:51 pm

>36 billiejean:

I also have spoilers. And don't know how to hide them.

I don't think you have to worry too much about spoilers at this point - I did put up that big boldface spoiler alert warning back in >32 artturnerjr:.

I kept wondering why there was so much discussion of the chamber for suicide...

The Government Lethal Chambers are one of the more disturbing set-pieces in this story (which is saying something!), aren't they? Once again, there's this weird discontinuity; we're supposedly in this utopian society ("bigotry and intolerance were laid in their graves and kindness and charity began to draw warring sects together") in which... the government kindly provides a painless means of suicide for all citizens? Whose idea of utopia is that? Oh yeah! A crazy guy's! :)

...and if it would come up in greater detail later in another story.

I don't think it's on any of the other stories in TKiY. They do make appearances in other stories that are influenced by Chambers and the King in Yellow Mythos (e.g., they show up in Providence*, a current comic book series by Alan Moore and Jacen Burrows).

I am enjoying it so far.

Glad you like it!

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providence_(Avatar_Press)

39.Monkey.
Ago 30, 2016, 4:51 pm

>35 artturnerjr: Hm, I mean I don't mind dark, but would it really have been less dark had the happy couple been the ones murdered? I guess I kinda felt more cheated, lol, like hey these were the two it was about, but one wound up with his throat cut and the other dead in an asylum, while the ignorant pair go off happily ever after! I think it would have been better (and perhaps darker ;P) had they been the ones dead, and he reigned king, perhaps carrying on his delusions from within an asylum after the tragic event, or some such.

40artturnerjr
Ago 30, 2016, 5:07 pm

>39 .Monkey.:

So... wait a second. You're actually advocating that cute little Louis and Constance should have died instead of creepy old Hildred and Wilde? Lol - you're a sick, sick woman, Mel! ;)

41.Monkey.
Ago 31, 2016, 6:15 am

LOL well not if it were real but as far as the story goes, it would only make sense! Hahaha

42artturnerjr
Ago 31, 2016, 9:50 am

>41 .Monkey.:

Well, y'know, Hildred had not been having the most outstanding run of luck up until then, between his unfortunate riding accident and his perusal of The King in Yellow; it seemed inevitable that he would come to a bad end.

Wilde I was actually kind of sad about, just because he's one of the most utterly strange characters I've encountered in literature. But, to paraphrase a cliché, if you mess with the cat, you're gonna get clawed. :/

***

Something I wanted to mention earlier re: our discussion of Lovecraft's fiction vs. Chambers': one big difference between them is that HPL's stuff is utterly devoid of romance - an element that seems to be present in almost all of Chambers' stories. In defending his famous story "The Call of Cthulhu", Lovecraft wrote:

"Now all my tales are based on the fundamental premise that common human laws and interests and emotions have no validity or significance in the vast cosmos-at-large. To me there is nothing but puerility in a tale in which the human form—and the local human passions and conditions and standards—are depicted as native to other worlds or other universes. To achieve the essence of real externality, whether of time or space or dimension, one must forget that such things as organic life, good and evil, love and hate, and all such local attributes of a negligible and temporary race called mankind, have any existence at all. Only the human scenes and characters must have human qualities. These must be handled with unsparing realism, (not catch-penny romanticism) but when we cross the line to the boundless and hideous unknown—the shadow-haunted Outside—we must remember to leave our humanity—and terrestrialism at the threshold."

I also seem to remember him saying somewhere in his voluminous correspondence that romance is "icky girl stuff", but I can't seem to find the exact quote. (j/k)

43artturnerjr
Sep 4, 2016, 5:36 pm

Just a reminder that we will start our discussion of the 3rd and 4th stories in The King in Yellow ("In the Court of the Dragon" and "The Yellow Sign") on September 11th, which is one week from today. If you haven't started reading them yet, you might want to soon.

44billiejean
Sep 6, 2016, 3:23 pm

Thanks for the reminder. I had thought it was today, and I have only read the first one. Now I know I have time. :)

45artturnerjr
Sep 11, 2016, 11:41 am

Hello, everyone. It's September 11th, which means it's time for us to start our discussion of the 3rd and 4th stories ("In the Court of the Dragon" and "The Yellow Sign") in The King in Yellow. Does anyone have any final comments on the preceding stories ("The Repairer of Reputations" and "The Mask") before we get started?

46artturnerjr
Sep 18, 2016, 11:56 pm

Okay, I posted my last message here a week ago - I think that's allowing more than enough time for any further comments anyone had on the first two stories!

I'll go ahead and start the discussion on the next two stories, starting with "The Yellow Sign", since I have a bit more to say about that one than I do about "In the Court of the Dragon".

First...

******WARNING: HERE THERE BE SPOILERS! If you haven't read "The Repairer of Reputations" or "The Mask" yet, you probably don't want to read past this point in the thread.******

The Yellow Sign

Here's a lightly edited version of what I wrote about this tale the last time I reread it, back in 2011:

I'm trying to figure out whether some of more banal touches in the earlier part of the story (i.e., the romantic subplot between the narrator and Tessie and the "quaint foreigner" character (Thomas)) are put there deliberately to contrast the horrific ending, to pander to what Chambers' idea of popular taste was, or just sloppy writing.

I am very fond of the passage that goes: "Oh the sin of writing such words,--words which are clear as crystal, limpid and musical as bubbling springs, words which sparkle and glow like the poisoned diamonds of the Medicis! Oh the wickedness, the hopeless damnation of a soul who could fascinate and paralyze human creatures with such words,--words understood by the ignorant and wise alike, words which are more precious than jewels, more soothing than music, more awful than death!" As I often find after finishing a really effective H.P. Lovecraft tale, I now really want to read the fictional tome that is discussed; it can't be any worse than American Psycho, right? :D


I actually liked this a little better than the last time I read it (this is, I think, my third reread of the story): I find myself landing on the notion that the romance elements in the tale are there to contrast the ending (and to add poignancy to it) more than the other two possibilities that I offer in the first paragraph of my review above. That is, it strikes me as more of a unified whole than it did in previous readings. I'd give it a solid 4.5/5.

In the Court of the Dragon

I thought this was an effective little tale. Structurally similar to "TYS" in that the most (to me) terrifying stuff is saved for the end. Also, I love the final line.* 4/5 for me.

*which comes from Hebrews 10:31: http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-31.htm

47billiejean
Sep 21, 2016, 10:39 am

I liked the first story (in the Court of the Dragon) ok, but I thought it could have had more to it. I really enjoyed the second story -- perfect for an October read. I also want to read the underlying play. It is interesting to me how this technique is so effective and so old; although, I have only recently come across it. In addition to here, there was a similar technique in The Man in the High Castle, which I think was the first book I read on my kindle last year. And I also read about the video featured in Infinite Jest, which had a negative effect on those who viewed it. But I guess it all goes to the story within a story in Shakespeare.

One thing I liked about this story (The Yellow Sign) was wondering if the warning of the impending doom would be enough to allow the characters to avert it.

I've never read any Lovecraft, but I would like to read some soon.

48.Monkey.
Sep 21, 2016, 11:20 am

I liked in the Court of the Dragon ok, but I thought it could have had more to it.
Agreed. I liked the atmosphere of it, nice and creepy, but then it didn't really go anywhere.

I wasn't crazy about Yellow Sign, though not at all for the aspect Art mentions (I didn't have issue with that at all, aside of it being a bit of padding to slow the story down, but I feel like the relationship stuff was a key thing, the angle providing the tension/horror - her dreams, her fear for him, her finding the book, his horror over her reading it, etc, it all only works because of their dynamic). Maybe it was something about the pacing style but it just didn't speak to me, I just kind of wanted the show to get on already and get to the "reveal": are the dreams really prophesying, what is it that actually happens. And when it finally did, it was just, eh.

49artturnerjr
Sep 21, 2016, 10:52 pm

>47 billiejean:
>48 .Monkey.:

Thanks for the comments - I was starting to think you guys had abandoned me! =:^O

>47 billiejean:

I also want to read the underlying play. It is interesting to me how this technique is so effective and so old; although, I have only recently come across it. In addition to here, there was a similar technique in The Man in the High Castle, which I think was the first book I read on my kindle last year. And I also read about the video featured in Infinite Jest, which had a negative effect on those who viewed it.

I think what I really like about that technique is the inclusiveness of it. It's as if the writer is saying to the reader, "You know what? I want you to make up a story, too. I'm going to give you little bits and pieces of it, but I want you to finish it." It's a good way for a writer to build an egalitarian relationship with his or her readers.

>48 .Monkey.:

Maybe it was something about the pacing style but it just didn't speak to me, I just kind of wanted the show to get on already and get to the "reveal": are the dreams really prophesying, what is it that actually happens. And when it finally did, it was just, eh.

Yeah, there's kind of an episodic quality to the narrative of that tale that's a little off-putting, I think. I found it got a little easier to deal with in repeat readings. Hey - read it again in a year or two - maybe then you'll like it as much as I did! :)

***

Thought I'd take a moment to mention that Ruthanna Emrys and Anne M. Pillsworth (both weird fiction writers themselves) offered their analyses of both "The Repairer of Reputations" and "The Yellow Sign" over at Tor.com earlier this year:

http://www.tor.com/2016/01/05/a-totally-unproblematic-utopia-the-repairer-of-rep...
http://www.tor.com/2016/08/24/borrowing-from-pickmans-library-robert-w-chamberss...

I think they're always fun and enlightening to read, even (especially?) when I don't agree with them.

50.Monkey.
Sep 22, 2016, 4:39 am

Nice articles. I had clicked on the first one when you linked it before but hadn't gotten around to actually reading it (was when I was swamped with cleaning and sorting and fixing and all the shiz that happens before the annual mom-visit hahaha). I do think the Yellow Sign one increased my appreciation of the story slightly, I thought "Anne’s Commentary" did pretty good at detailing it (though she seems unaware? of Lovecraft's, er, rampant issues, with women >.>), the good and the less-good.

I will have to poke around there and see what else they write about. :)

51artturnerjr
Sep 22, 2016, 12:07 pm

>50 .Monkey.:

I thought "Anne’s Commentary" did pretty good at detailing it (though she seems unaware? of Lovecraft's, er, rampant issues, with women >.>), the good and the less-good.

Yeah, it's quite a perceptive analysis. I think HPL's complicated relationship with women and sex is often overshadowed by his rather more obvious and odious racism, but it's just as fascinating to explore, if not more so. Actually, what we would probably now characterize as "normal" close interpersonal relationships with others, male and female, seems to have been generally problematic for him. But, y'know, when both of your parents die in insane asylums, you tend to have a few issues.

52.Monkey.
Sep 22, 2016, 12:53 pm

Yep, most mental illnesses tend to be hereditary so I'm sure he had at least a thing or two that really ought to have been dealt with (though of course back then that pretty much just meant being locked up so hey), that presumably explain away some of his...eccentricities. Heh. I do like how his short-term wife described him as an "adequately excellent lover," though, LOL.

53artturnerjr
Sep 22, 2016, 9:10 pm

>52 .Monkey.:

Yep, most mental illnesses tend to be hereditary so I'm sure he had at least a thing or two that really ought to have been dealt with (though of course back then that pretty much just meant being locked up so hey), that presumably explain away some of his...eccentricities.

Yeah, that's true. Not to make excuses for the guy, but he didn't exactly lead a charmed life.

an "adequately excellent lover,"

That's such an odd turn of phrase, isn't it? What the hell does that mean, anyway?

54.Monkey.
Sep 23, 2016, 2:49 am

Yep, doesn't excuse anything, but may explain some of it. Or particularly why he was so heated about it. Even if it was common to hold some racist/misogynistic views back then, it was certainly not common to go railing away about it both publicly and privately (he was the same in his personal correspondence) at every opportunity, with such force. Very over the top!

LMAO right? I have no idea, but I find it hilarious!

55artturnerjr
Sep 25, 2016, 7:38 pm

>54 .Monkey.:

S.T. Joshi (the same guy that edited the edition of TKiY that I mentioned in >3 artturnerjr:) did an interview a few years back* where I think he did a pretty good job of both putting Lovecraft's racism in context and pinning down what was particularly infuriating about it:

First, his views were clearly inspired (initially) by his upbringing in a conservative New England, at a time when social attitudes were quite rigid, and when the United States as a whole was facing an unprecedented influx of immigrants from Europe, Asia and Latin America, leading many “old Americans” to fear that the traditional WASP culture was threatened and perhaps even headed toward extinction. Lovecraft was also led to his racial views by reading the work of contemporary social scientists, many of whom endorsed the belief in the biological inferiority of certain races (i.e., African Americans) and the biological superiority of others (i.e., Caucasians).

These beliefs were not systematically destroyed until the 1930s, long after Lovecraft had come to hold them and make them a firm fixture in his whole outlook on life. Where Lovecraft is to be criticized, as far as race is concerned, is not so much in holding repugnant views on blacks, Jews and other minorities, but in failing to exercise flexibility of mind and openness to new evidence on the issue – as he did on nearly every other intellectual issue he faced, from metaphysics to ethics, to politics and economics.


I think the "adequately excellent lover" quote is hilarious, too. Belive me, HPL scholarship is not without its amusing moments. :)

*here: http://www.innsmouthfreepress.com/blog/the-lovecraft-expert-an-interview-with-s-...

***

Anyway... not to sound like a cranky schoolmaster, but we're due to discuss the the next two KiY pieces ("The Demoiselle d'Ys" and "The Prophets' Paradise") now. Has everybody had been able to read them, or do we need more time? (They're both pretty short, so it shouldn't take very long to knock them off if you haven't already.)

56billiejean
Sep 28, 2016, 7:52 pm

Ok, I liked the first story; although, the part about the snake did not really make sense to me. It had kind of a Twilight Zone feel to it. Short, but complete. (Except about the snake.) The second story just totally went over my head. Maybe I should have read it twice. :)

57artturnerjr
Sep 29, 2016, 12:04 pm

>56 billiejean:

Yeah, I liked the first one ("The Demoiselle d'Ys"), too. Was kind of disappointed that it seemed to depart from the King in Yellow mythology almost entirely, though (except for the inclusion of a character named "Hastur").

(There's kind of an amusing joke in that one that was pointed out in one of the commentaries I read: the title character's name is Jeanne d'Ys, which is a homonym for jaundice. Jaundice is, of course, an illness that makes your skin and/or eyes turn yellow, and is derived from the Old French word jaunice, which means "yellowness". :))

The second story just totally went over my head. Maybe I should have read it twice. :)

I'm relieved to hear you say that. I couldn't make heads or tales of it either. If you read it again and figure it out, please let me know. :)

58.Monkey.
Sep 29, 2016, 2:48 pm

Ohhh, the prophet one. Yeah I hated that. The intro said something glowing about it, I think they're smoking something, because the repetition was just obnoxious as hell and yeah it all made no sense. *digs out book* "The strangest tale in this collection is "The Prophet's Paradise," which is a series of short scenes of a rich but esoteric and indeed hallucinatory nature. The luxurious repetitive prose appears to contain some contradictory universal truths. One must admit that while the piece is rich in imagination, it remains open to personal interpretation." Like I said, they're nuts. Lol.

I liked Demoiselle also.
>56 billiejean: What was it that didn't make sense?
>57 artturnerjr: Yep, only the first four are actual King in Yellow stories.
I'm not sure about that homonym, though, I guess if you read it accented it could sort of sound like that, but d'Ys would be pronounced something like "dees," as Y itself is pronounced ee. And Ys is a real Breton city, not something he made up, though I suppose the first name pairing could have been entirely intentional. I do wonder a bit though if it's just people stretching things, heh.

59billiejean
Oct 2, 2016, 6:53 pm

What didn't make sense to me was that Philip got bit by the snake, but Jeanne died. Of course, maybe I got it totally wrong. Maybe she didn't die at the moment he disappeared like I originally thought. Looking back, I guess that was not implied.

60artturnerjr
Oct 2, 2016, 8:39 pm

>58 .Monkey.:

The intro said something glowing about it, I think they're smoking something, because the repetition was just obnoxious as hell and yeah it all made no sense.

Mine refers to it as "a series of fine prose-poems". Apparently the sort of people that write introductions to books interpret these things differently then us reg'lar folk do. :)

Yep, only the first four are actual King in Yellow stories.

That's too bad. That's one of my favorite elements of the stories.

>59 billiejean:

I think it's supposed to be like this (putting it rather baldly): Philip is sort of magically transported back in time to Jeanne's time (the 1500s), by a spell or some such. His being bitten by the snake breaks the spell and transports him back to the present day. Since she was born in the 16th century, Jeanne, in the present day, is dead. Make sense?

61.Monkey.
Oct 3, 2016, 4:35 am

He did die, but since he was in some weird time-warp, his dying made him wake back up in his actual time, where he found the gravestone thing that said she died due to her broken heart over him.

>60 artturnerjr: See I actually think his romances are better than his horrory stuff, lol, I was actually pretty glad to find that the rest were what they are. :P

62billiejean
Oct 3, 2016, 6:10 pm

Thanks for the explanations! I don't know why that fact struck me as odd when I read the story.

I have read the next 2. Is today the day?

I actually liked both of the stories, but I liked the second one better. It's interesting to me that he writes so often about artists. I guess this section of stories is "The Street of" stories. I did think the second story was a little convoluted, but I liked it nonetheless. Especially the ending. Only two more to go, I think.

63artturnerjr
Oct 8, 2016, 12:14 pm

>62 billiejean:

I have read the next 2. Is today the day?

No, we don't start discussing the next two stories until tomorrow (see the "Schedule" section in >1 artturnerjr:) (which means I need to get reading - I haven't read either of those yet!).

64billiejean
Oct 8, 2016, 9:33 pm

Sorry.

65artturnerjr
Oct 8, 2016, 9:51 pm

>64 billiejean:

It's all good. No spoilers there, nothing to worry about. :)

66.Monkey.
Oct 9, 2016, 9:14 am

Ah yes, these two, I liked them quite a bit, they were interesting. First Shell is probably my favorite of the book. I agree it took some ...odd turns, in the middle there, lol, but somehow it worked.

67billiejean
Oct 18, 2016, 10:12 am

I finished up the book. I thought the last two stories seemed quite different from the overarching theme of the book. And they were really similar to each other with the same location, characters, and almost the same plot. I guess I did not really care for these last two "street of" stories.

I had never heard of this book before this group read. Thank you so much for bringing it to my attention. I thought it was a great read for the Fall.

68artturnerjr
Oct 18, 2016, 9:43 pm

Hey, I'm back! Sorry I disappeared from here for a while - had a hell of a time finishing "The Street of the First Shell" (8th story). Just started "The Street of Our Lady of the Fields" (9th one).

Brief reactions to #7 and #8:

"The Street of the Four Winds": I actually preferred this story over the one that follows it. Chambers has clearly spent some time closely observing cat behavior! I thought the ending, while not entirely unexpected, was nicely done.

"The Street of the First Shell": As I noted above, this one gave me some difficulties. I felt a little bit like I had been dropped down in the middle of a Tolstoy novel while reading this one. It didn't seem like it picked up much narrative steam until about halfway through. Perhaps if I had more knowledge of 19th-century European history* I would have found it more engaging.

PS What's the deal with all the characters named Sylvia? There's a Sylvia in both these stories (actually two in #7), and you'll recall that the protagonist's long-lost love in "The Yellow Sign" was named Sylvia, too. Was this intentional, or did Chambers just like the name?

>62 billiejean:

It's interesting to me that he writes so often about artists.

Chambers is following the old writer's dictum of "write what you know". One of the back-cover blurbs on my book says he "studied art at the École des Beaux-Arts and the Académie Julian in Paris, and sold illustrations to Life, Truth, and Vogue, and other magazines before turning to a career as a writer". (That would help explain all the Gallic settings, too.)

* The editor of my edition of TKiY says that this story and the preceding one take place during the Franco-Prussian War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War), which I confess I know nothing about

69billiejean
Oct 19, 2016, 10:08 am

I also don't know much about that war. However, I happen to love the writings of Tolstoy.