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2JGL53
> 1
Yes, of course, Joshua (Jesus) was essentially a very charismatic 'dirty hippy anarchist', with possibly very strong narcissistic tendencies - perhaps megalomania? That is the unkind view.
However, we of the extant age don't really know what words were put in Joshua's mouth by biblical composers. He may in real life have been a decent sort of "extremist" like Timothy Leary, Abbie Hoffman, Alan Watts, etc. - i.e., a precursor to the '60s type of 'dirty hippy anarchist'.
The biblical writers present Joshua as (the, not a) god - explicitly both man and god - seemingly a really bad idea. But the same has been done to The Buddha by many of the Buddhist sects, and even Mohammed was presented as a magical being to some extent.
Thus, it might very well be another case of a charismatic "extremist" and his message being distorted utterly by his surviving followers by elevating him above the human.
But it's all good - if properly understood - or "interpreted". (My opinion)
All claims of Magic are fantasy, apparently, but all promoted principles regarding human empathy seem the righteous way to go - a beautiful dream of hope and love and beauty and peace and all that - i.e., the one true religion, as it were, so to speak, if you know what I mean.
Yes, of course, Joshua (Jesus) was essentially a very charismatic 'dirty hippy anarchist', with possibly very strong narcissistic tendencies - perhaps megalomania? That is the unkind view.
However, we of the extant age don't really know what words were put in Joshua's mouth by biblical composers. He may in real life have been a decent sort of "extremist" like Timothy Leary, Abbie Hoffman, Alan Watts, etc. - i.e., a precursor to the '60s type of 'dirty hippy anarchist'.
The biblical writers present Joshua as (the, not a) god - explicitly both man and god - seemingly a really bad idea. But the same has been done to The Buddha by many of the Buddhist sects, and even Mohammed was presented as a magical being to some extent.
Thus, it might very well be another case of a charismatic "extremist" and his message being distorted utterly by his surviving followers by elevating him above the human.
But it's all good - if properly understood - or "interpreted". (My opinion)
All claims of Magic are fantasy, apparently, but all promoted principles regarding human empathy seem the righteous way to go - a beautiful dream of hope and love and beauty and peace and all that - i.e., the one true religion, as it were, so to speak, if you know what I mean.
3John5918
See this thread on religious extremism.
4pmackey
>1 John5918:, John the Baptist saw Jesus as his successor? In the context of the piece it implies Jesus was a different age but the Bible indicates they were contemporaries as in the Visitation when John the Baptist leapt in the womb in the presence of the fetus Jesus.
The article strikes me as trotting out the fundamentalist atheist agenda that some ideas are just too dangerous. It fails to account for Jesus' sayings, "My kingdom is not of this world... Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's...."
I suppose Jesus was an extremist in the same way the progressive Muslim imam in the thread you refer to above. There was no compromise. You're either a follower or not. Put your hand to the plow. Take up your cross. His extremism, though, is radically different than the popular view of decapitators or abortion doctor killers. Jesus turned society on its head by telling us to love one another. If I could follow him in his extreme love, my life would be more of a blessing to others.
The article strikes me as trotting out the fundamentalist atheist agenda that some ideas are just too dangerous. It fails to account for Jesus' sayings, "My kingdom is not of this world... Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's...."
I suppose Jesus was an extremist in the same way the progressive Muslim imam in the thread you refer to above. There was no compromise. You're either a follower or not. Put your hand to the plow. Take up your cross. His extremism, though, is radically different than the popular view of decapitators or abortion doctor killers. Jesus turned society on its head by telling us to love one another. If I could follow him in his extreme love, my life would be more of a blessing to others.
5margd
Interesting show on PBS the other night that explores why perhaps Jesus wasn't immediately killed/arrested for clearing the temple, that he may have been in Jerusalem six months and not a few days, why the usually vicious Pilate was solicitous of Jesus, maybe even the expression "render unto Caesar", why his ministry only came into being when he was 30, why 12 apostles, etc.:
Last Days of Jesus 1:53:41
Premiered April 4, 2017
For almost two thousand years, the story of Jesus’ final days has been celebrated by Christians the world over. From Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem, through to his eventual crucifixion six days later, the key moments have been immortalized in countless films, pieces of music, and works of art. "Last Days of Jesus" explores how dramatic political events in Rome could have played a crucial role in shaping Jesus’ destiny, and examines an extraordinary political alliance that altered the course of history.
http://www.pbs.org/show/last-days-jesus/ (Scroll down to watch online.)
___________________________________________________________
More About "Last Days of Jesus"
A little over 2,000 years ago, the story of the historical Jesus of Nazareth, son of a carpenter and stone mason, begins in a tiny village in the hills of the Galilee. Some 30 years later, in Jerusalem, his life ends and the story of Christianity unfolds. Little is known from the Gospels about the man himself until he steps onto the scene as a popular preacher who captures the imagination of the crowds. A man, first celebrated and adored, who experiences the ultimate downfall in the course of only six days during the Passover holidays, tossed around like a pawn in a chess game.
Based on crucial archaeological evidence and historical analysis, "Last Days of Jesus" peels back the layers of the traditional Gospel narrative to shine a new light on the historical Jesus. It explores key members of the Herodian Dynasty, such as Herod Antipas, the Jewish Governor of Galilea and son of Herod the Great, as well as the main characters in the capital of the Roman Empire, bringing to life a man that has been almost completely erased from history. Lucius Aelius Sejanus, head of the the Praetorian Guard with dubious yet fierce ambitions who, in the absence of Emperor Tiberius, reached for ultimate power around A.D. 30, just when Jesus’ ministry was more popular than ever.
This is the story told by leading scholars and authors in the field of classics, religion, history and archaeology based on existing as well as new evidence from ancient texts and artifacts. "Last Days of Jesus" illustrates how the ever-changing political landscape in Rome impacted Jesus’ life, and connects the dots between Rome, Jerusalem and the backwaters of the Galilee. This film sheds new light on Jesus’s final days, who was caught up in a political power play hatched by two of the most powerful men in the Roman world.
"Last Days of Jesus" was produced by Blink Films, Associated Producers Ltd., PBS, Channel Five Televison, LTD., SBS Television Australia and ZoomerMedia Limited.
http://www.pbs.org/program/last-days-jesus/
Last Days of Jesus 1:53:41
Premiered April 4, 2017
For almost two thousand years, the story of Jesus’ final days has been celebrated by Christians the world over. From Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem, through to his eventual crucifixion six days later, the key moments have been immortalized in countless films, pieces of music, and works of art. "Last Days of Jesus" explores how dramatic political events in Rome could have played a crucial role in shaping Jesus’ destiny, and examines an extraordinary political alliance that altered the course of history.
http://www.pbs.org/show/last-days-jesus/ (Scroll down to watch online.)
___________________________________________________________
More About "Last Days of Jesus"
A little over 2,000 years ago, the story of the historical Jesus of Nazareth, son of a carpenter and stone mason, begins in a tiny village in the hills of the Galilee. Some 30 years later, in Jerusalem, his life ends and the story of Christianity unfolds. Little is known from the Gospels about the man himself until he steps onto the scene as a popular preacher who captures the imagination of the crowds. A man, first celebrated and adored, who experiences the ultimate downfall in the course of only six days during the Passover holidays, tossed around like a pawn in a chess game.
Based on crucial archaeological evidence and historical analysis, "Last Days of Jesus" peels back the layers of the traditional Gospel narrative to shine a new light on the historical Jesus. It explores key members of the Herodian Dynasty, such as Herod Antipas, the Jewish Governor of Galilea and son of Herod the Great, as well as the main characters in the capital of the Roman Empire, bringing to life a man that has been almost completely erased from history. Lucius Aelius Sejanus, head of the the Praetorian Guard with dubious yet fierce ambitions who, in the absence of Emperor Tiberius, reached for ultimate power around A.D. 30, just when Jesus’ ministry was more popular than ever.
This is the story told by leading scholars and authors in the field of classics, religion, history and archaeology based on existing as well as new evidence from ancient texts and artifacts. "Last Days of Jesus" illustrates how the ever-changing political landscape in Rome impacted Jesus’ life, and connects the dots between Rome, Jerusalem and the backwaters of the Galilee. This film sheds new light on Jesus’s final days, who was caught up in a political power play hatched by two of the most powerful men in the Roman world.
"Last Days of Jesus" was produced by Blink Films, Associated Producers Ltd., PBS, Channel Five Televison, LTD., SBS Television Australia and ZoomerMedia Limited.
http://www.pbs.org/program/last-days-jesus/
6pmackey
>5 margd: Was the Last Days of Jesus respectful? I don't want Christian hagiography (there's a place for that) but neither do I want sensationalism. Don't need to hear Jesus was... cough, cough... King Arthur.
7margd
I thought it was respectful. For example, the reason historians think Jesus was in Jerusalem six months and not six days was because palm leaves are shed then, and are otherwise hard to tear off trees. (If I understand correctly.) I need to watch again to look for the other bits of evidence/argument, and would be interested to hear what others think.
Another tidbit: there is little evidence for how Romans crucified people, but there apparently is one ancient heelbone with a nail in it. The sliver of wood on the nail was olive and not that large as the nail was bent, assumedly from hitting the rocky ground beneath. Dreadful.
Another tidbit: there is little evidence for how Romans crucified people, but there apparently is one ancient heelbone with a nail in it. The sliver of wood on the nail was olive and not that large as the nail was bent, assumedly from hitting the rocky ground beneath. Dreadful.
9JGL53
Hercules - was the son of god - his father was the supreme god Zeus and his mother the mortal Alcmene.
The gods withheld knowledge of fire, the use of which sets humans above the other animals. Prometheus disobeyed the gods and gave men fire. His punishment was eternal pain and agony - chained to a rock his liver was eaten every day by a eagle, only to grow back at night and be eaten the next day - never-ending pain. He was set free (saved) by the intervention of god's son - Hercules.
Hercules eventually dies - but not really. He lives eternally in the sky - the constellation of Hercules.
All praise Hercules, son of god, who overcame death and lives eternally.
(Same basic idea, just stated in simpler metaphors.)
The gods withheld knowledge of fire, the use of which sets humans above the other animals. Prometheus disobeyed the gods and gave men fire. His punishment was eternal pain and agony - chained to a rock his liver was eaten every day by a eagle, only to grow back at night and be eaten the next day - never-ending pain. He was set free (saved) by the intervention of god's son - Hercules.
Hercules eventually dies - but not really. He lives eternally in the sky - the constellation of Hercules.
All praise Hercules, son of god, who overcame death and lives eternally.
(Same basic idea, just stated in simpler metaphors.)
10pmackey
>9 JGL53: (Same basic idea, just stated in simpler metaphors.)
It's convenient, if you aren't a believer, to lump them together. Yes, there are similar features. But not the same at all from the Christian perspective because one is myth and one is Truth.
It's convenient, if you aren't a believer, to lump them together. Yes, there are similar features. But not the same at all from the Christian perspective because one is myth and one is Truth.
11JGL53
> 10
Your religion is Truth, making all other religions myth.
Sounds a tiny bit ethnocentric and chauvinistic, but whatever dude -it's your brain - take it out and play with it if you want.
Your religion is Truth, making all other religions myth.
Sounds a tiny bit ethnocentric and chauvinistic, but whatever dude -it's your brain - take it out and play with it if you want.
12pmackey
>11 JGL53:
Your religion is Truth, making all other religions myth
Yes, I believe Christianity is Truth but the rest is a lot more complicated. All other religions are NOT myths, to put it in a simplistic way, Christianity is the fullest revelation of Truth; other religions are true, but to greater or lesser degrees. God meets humanity where it is at the time because we as humans have been reaching out to the divine from time immemorial. So, even Greek and Roman paganism had elements of truth.
Oh, and, yes, the Bible does contain myth in parts (i.e., the Creation story), but it still tells us truths.
Sounds a tiny bit ethnocentric and chauvinistic
I'm sure it does, though that is not my intent. Any adherent to another religion will disagree with me as I do with them. It's okay. We just need to love one another and treat each other as we want to be treated. God (by whatever name or gender) will sort it out in the end. Or not. If you're right and there is no God it won't make a difference, but at least I will have lived and died happy.
Your religion is Truth, making all other religions myth
Yes, I believe Christianity is Truth but the rest is a lot more complicated. All other religions are NOT myths, to put it in a simplistic way, Christianity is the fullest revelation of Truth; other religions are true, but to greater or lesser degrees. God meets humanity where it is at the time because we as humans have been reaching out to the divine from time immemorial. So, even Greek and Roman paganism had elements of truth.
Oh, and, yes, the Bible does contain myth in parts (i.e., the Creation story), but it still tells us truths.
Sounds a tiny bit ethnocentric and chauvinistic
I'm sure it does, though that is not my intent. Any adherent to another religion will disagree with me as I do with them. It's okay. We just need to love one another and treat each other as we want to be treated. God (by whatever name or gender) will sort it out in the end. Or not. If you're right and there is no God it won't make a difference, but at least I will have lived and died happy.
13John5918
>12 pmackey: the Bible does contain myth in parts (i.e., the Creation story), but it still tells us truths
And the same is true of the entire Christian narrative (or Tradition) - it contains myth, but there is truth within the myth.
And the same is true of the entire Christian narrative (or Tradition) - it contains myth, but there is truth within the myth.
14JGL53
> 13
I'm not making this up > years ago I had a fairly lengthy conversation with an Episcopalian priest about history vs. myth in the bible. His position was that, with the exception of the resurrection of Jesus, it did not matter one iota whether the rest of the bible miracle stories were myth or history - he just assumed they were myth. I guess you could say his conviction was that belief in one miracle - the really only important one - suffices and all else is commentary (to paraphrase Hillel).
I would think that - and the Golden Rule - should be enough religion for anyone - but most need more bells and whistles, obviously. And that is ashamed - and the problem - IMO.
I'm not making this up > years ago I had a fairly lengthy conversation with an Episcopalian priest about history vs. myth in the bible. His position was that, with the exception of the resurrection of Jesus, it did not matter one iota whether the rest of the bible miracle stories were myth or history - he just assumed they were myth. I guess you could say his conviction was that belief in one miracle - the really only important one - suffices and all else is commentary (to paraphrase Hillel).
I would think that - and the Golden Rule - should be enough religion for anyone - but most need more bells and whistles, obviously. And that is ashamed - and the problem - IMO.
15pmackey
>14 JGL53: As an Episcopalian myself, I'm not surprised. I'm much further on the right on that scale. But as one priest I knew said, the Episcopal church is an awefully big tent and there's room for everyone.
16JGL53
> 15
Yes. Once the members who hate the gay and hate the woman priest idea split off and formed their own brand of Episcopalians the major body left is very like the Unitarian/Universalists - one creates one's own personal theology and just agrees to meet with other nice people on Sunday to share wafers and wine and ceremony, then coffee and cake and chat time afterwards, with occasional wine and cheese parties on the odd weekend.
No harm in that, one supposes.
Yes. Once the members who hate the gay and hate the woman priest idea split off and formed their own brand of Episcopalians the major body left is very like the Unitarian/Universalists - one creates one's own personal theology and just agrees to meet with other nice people on Sunday to share wafers and wine and ceremony, then coffee and cake and chat time afterwards, with occasional wine and cheese parties on the odd weekend.
No harm in that, one supposes.
17pmackey
>16 JGL53: Well, I've only been a Episcopalian since 1993 so I truthfully have limited experience, but in that experience, the big tent metaphor predates the recent issues. And under the big tent there has always been a place for the "right wingers" and "Unitarian/Universalists", while the vast majority are somewhere in between. What I see happening over the last few years is the Anglican Communion waking up to our mission. Which, if I've been paying attention is: 1) to worship God, and 2) to be agents of reconciliation between a broken world and a loving God. A great book by N.T Wright, The Day the Revolution Began, really inspired me to see the restoration of harmony between God and humanity as central to who we are as members of the Anglican Communion and Christendom writ large.
18JGL53
> 17
My own experience of the Episcopal church is much more limited. I had a uncle and a brother who were converts. They are both deceased now but, living, both seemed as happy as clams in a warm sea.
The only thing I remember much are the jokes - e.g., about Episcopalians being so cocktail-friendly that more conservative teetotaler christians sometimes derisively refer to them as 'Whiskeypalians".
Also the joke about them being 'God's Frozen People' - a reference to their alleged snootiness.
And, of course, Christopher Hitchens' favorite reference - that he found it hard to admire a denomination founded on the moral values of Henry VIII.
lol.
My own experience of the Episcopal church is much more limited. I had a uncle and a brother who were converts. They are both deceased now but, living, both seemed as happy as clams in a warm sea.
The only thing I remember much are the jokes - e.g., about Episcopalians being so cocktail-friendly that more conservative teetotaler christians sometimes derisively refer to them as 'Whiskeypalians".
Also the joke about them being 'God's Frozen People' - a reference to their alleged snootiness.
And, of course, Christopher Hitchens' favorite reference - that he found it hard to admire a denomination founded on the moral values of Henry VIII.
lol.
19margd
I find much to admire in Episcopalians/Anglicans, but then Christianity was founded on the morals of a state "criminal". :-)
20JGL53
> 19
Yes. Back in the day declaring oneself god was a capitol offence. Nowadays the person is just assumed to be mental and is dealt with as having a health issue.
Ironically, whipping people out of a building based on your suspicion they were fraudulent businessmen was considered not so bad - just another day in the big city. Today such would definitely be considered a criminal offense involving some jail time.
It does seem slightly confusing to anyone unfamiliar with christian "logic". Luckily, I was born in the belly of the beast and nothing really surprises me anymore concerning the One True Religion (TM). lol.
Yes. Back in the day declaring oneself god was a capitol offence. Nowadays the person is just assumed to be mental and is dealt with as having a health issue.
Ironically, whipping people out of a building based on your suspicion they were fraudulent businessmen was considered not so bad - just another day in the big city. Today such would definitely be considered a criminal offense involving some jail time.
It does seem slightly confusing to anyone unfamiliar with christian "logic". Luckily, I was born in the belly of the beast and nothing really surprises me anymore concerning the One True Religion (TM). lol.
