Discussion Thread: Pride and Prejudice

It's finally time to discuss our Jane Austen group read for January/February, Pride and Prejudice! What did everyone think of the book? Was it a beloved re-read for you (as it was for me), or were you coming to it for the first time? Did anything in particular jump out at you on this reading? Were you surprised by any of the plot twists? Did you have a favorite character or favorite scene? Discuss! :)

I read P & P for the second time and was able to relax and enjoy the language. I understood the entailment business better having read Bleak House since my original P & P read.

I think one thing that jumped out at me was how invisible the middle daughter was. Mary apparently had her nose in her books most of the time and all the events just washed over her. I couldn't understand how her literary father, who liked nothing more than time alone in his library, paid her no attention, even though they were so much alike.

I think I most appreciated the scenes where Mrs. Bennet went over-the-top hysterical. It's a wonder not all of the daughters became as crazy as Lydia.

Here are a few documentaries that are both interesting and well done:

BBC "Having a Ball" --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHHh-Ppd8oI (this is an hour and a half, so plan your viewing accordingly)

Perspectives in Pride & Prejudice --- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT9fPBk_jKE This link goes to the first segement--I think there are nine 10-min bits). It is really about adapting the novel to the 1995 film; however, there are lots of great insights into the novel here.

I enjoyed these both. There is actually a lot about Jane Austen and P&P on YouTube.

I know the BBC mini series better than the book. Last time I read it, I was hit by how well the series follows the book, and how much of the dialogue is straight out of the book.

This time I was more aware of the differences, and rather critical of the way Mary was played. She isn't nearly as horrible in the book as they made her out to be.

Yes, poor Mary! I always have different reactions to her when I read this. Sometimes I find her intolerably annoying and snobbish, and sometimes I just feel sorry for her - kind of overwhelmed by all of her sisters and looking for her own niche. The edition I read suggested she might have been the best match for Mr. Collins, but I don't know. I think they may have been too similar in some ways and been always rubbing each other the wrong way.

I've lost count of how many times I've read this book now. I read a beautiful annotated edition this time - Pride and Prejudice: An Annotated Edition, annotated by Patricia Meyer Spacks. While I loved her annotation of Sense and Sensibility, I was kind of annoyed with it for P&P. I'm pretty sure this is my own issue though - I just didn't want anyone telling me what to think about P&P!

One interesting thing that was pointed out was that this is the most likely of Austen's novels to have been originally conceived as an epistolatory novel. That made sense to me as I know that Frances Burney was an influence on Austen and some of her novels (and lots of novels preceding Austen) were written in letter form. And there are lots of letters in P&P and the opportunity for many more letters because of the distance between many of the characters. I thought that was interesting to think about.

What was poor Mary to do? Not flighty like the younger two. Not part of the close friendship of the older two. Even Jane Austen seems to treat her as on the outskirts of the family.

I have also heard that this was meant to be an epistolatory novel. I think the letters in it are used to great effect, but I'm glad Austen thought better of the idea of just using letters, if that had been her plan. My guess is that if she started that way, that the book just took over and didn't let itself be written like that.

I think that the only thing that Mary and Mr Bennet have in common is that they both love to be absorbed in their books, but how different are their approches and how different they are! Mr Bennet has a great sense of humor (the same kind as Jane Austen, I think); he's unconventional, disdainful of conventions and sarcastic. Mary wants with all her heart and soul to be erudite, but she seems kind of obtuse, rigid and conventional. She has no sense of humor at all, and she is boring and bored. How can Mr Bennet prefer this girl to the others?

I still have a few pages to read (or re-read) but by now I was surprised to see that Austen decided to describe the second marriage proposal of Darcy to Elizabeth instead of using that dialogue as she usually did before. I'm wondering how she made this choice – maybe to avoid sentimentalism?

>7 librivendola: "I'm wondering how she made this choice – maybe to avoid sentimentalism?"

That's the conclusion I came to...also, it's not a dramatic moment--you know how Elizabeth is going to answer! Looking at this book wearing my writer's hat, I get the feeling that Austen saved dialogue mostly for times and circumstances when she wanted to be able to illustrate character.

I was going to skip reading Pride and Prejudice as I've read it several times over the years, but this thread is tempting me...

Another issue: near the end, it seems that everything happens much faster than before and within a few pages we see the resolutions to many conflicts and misunderstandings between the characters, and two marriages are set.
Furthermore, it seems to me that my favourite, Elizabeth, becomes more attached to social conventions and more conventional herself.
Do you have the same impression?

>10 librivendola: Interesting question. I mean, Elizabeth does marry Darcy in the end, which is exactly what society would expect her to do. Mrs. Bennet is thrilled about it, even though she thinks Darcy is a jerk, because he's so rich -- and even Charlotte believed that Lizzy would immediately stop hating Darcy if he showed any interest in her. But I think she still retains her sense of perspective and her sense of humor, which (to me) is what makes her so unique and lovable. I like how she can't stop teasing Darcy, even after she's admitted that she loves him. And Georgiana is so shocked by it! :)

What a great discussion so far. I will have to pop back in later.

>5 japaul22: I found this annotated edition of Pride and Prejudice after reading about it on your thread. and I am just getting started on the notes. I also read somewhere that the version annotated by David M. Shapard is very good. Has anyone read that version?

I followed the tutored read that Liz did for Madeline and it was very helpful in explaining things that I would never have figured out on my own.

Even though I said I probably wouldn't reread P&P at this time, I am doing it. I'm enjoying the discussion here, as well as the archived tutored thread. I had not idea that Mr. Bennet was so neglectful - so I'm glad I'm here. Previously, his cynicism made me smile and that was about as deeply as I went in to his character.

Something else I had forgotten is the sympathy that Jane showed for Mr. Darcy when Elizabeth recounted to her how she had turned down Darcy's marriage proposal.

>13 streamsong: I always thought Mr. Bennet was so funny but as I read the tutored read I really saw what a disservice he did to his daughters by not saving money early in his marriage. Since they had no son and the estate was entailed he should have been trying to form alliances for his daughters but all he did was hide in his library and read. Also, even though Mrs. Bennet was ridiculous he is not nice to her at all. He truly has some of the best lines in the book but I don't think of him as fondly as I once used to.

>14 luvamystery65: Exactly!

# 8 Marissa Doyle I get the feeling that Austen saved dialogue mostly for times and circumstances when she wanted to be able to illustrate character.

That's a really interesting point. I'm going to watch for that in my future Austen reading. Thanks for that insight.

#12 Luvamystery I also read somewhere that the version annotated by David M. Shapard is very good.

I followed along with Smiler69's tutored read last year, and used both the Shapard and the Spacks annotated editions. Both are excellent. Spacks of course is gorgeous. I found that the Shapard perhaps had more meaty substance in regard to the text, and the Spacks has some of that, but also more historical context. I can't imagine giving up either of them.

The criticism of Shapard is that he is sometimes repetitive, but he explains why he does this in the introduction. You end up reading annotations that you already know. If you're the type of person who gets bothered by this, it may frustrate and grate on your nerves. But if you're the kind of person who can just ignore it and move on, then it's a good investment.

And I wouldn't recommend either to someone reading the novel for the first time--too distracting and ruining of flow.

But it seems everyone here is rereading . . . ? Any P&P newbies?

>17 Nickelini: Thanks for that advice. I think I will wishlist the Shapard for a future reread since I will really have to look for it or request it ILL. I'll read the notes on the Spacks since I have that version in hand.

On this re-read, one thing I found myself wondering is whether Elizabeth started to have feelings for Mr. Darcy even before his first proposal. He seems to be on her mind a lot…for example, when she first meets Miss de Bourgh, she immediately thinks that the girl will make a proper wife for Mr. Darcy because she is so sickly and cross. And when she reads Darcy's letter, she makes a very telling remark: "Had I been in love, I could not have been more wretchedly blind. But vanity, not love, has been my folly." I think she's a little bit too quick to attribute her entire emotional reaction to vanity! I wonder if maybe she was subconsciously attracted to Mr. Darcy even then, but her conscious mind was trying to suppress those feelings because of his (supposed) wickedness regarding Jane/Bingley and Wickham.

On this re-read, one thing I found myself wondering is whether Elizabeth started to have feelings for Mr. Darcy even before his first proposal.

Of course she did. ". . . and I had not known you a month before I felt that you were the last man in the world whom I could ever be prevailed to marry."

Ooops. I little slip there. Within a month she was thinking about marrying him. People don't think about whether or not they'd marry someone when there is nothing there.

The fun part is figuring out exactly when one became attracted to the other. I would argue that it's early on in the novel for both of them. Would she have been so insulted by Darcy's "not handsome enough to tempt me" if she wasn't a little interested in him? Personally if someone I'm not interested in rebuffs me, my response is "the feeling is mutual." I don't think Elizabeth Bennett has so much ego that she expects everyone to like her even if she doesn't think anything of them. I also don't think she'd have put so much effort into scoring points in their conversations if she didn't care what he thought. There's another line where the narrator alludes to her obsession with him. I'll have to think of where it is.

This is quite a nice discussion! I have read P&P before but it was so long ago that it was nice to come at it again with 10 more years of my life behind me.

I definitely agree that Elizabeth was already having mixed emotions about Darcy even before his first proposal; it really struck me on this reading (knowing that she would say yes eventually) that she was indeed thinking about him an awful lot for being so disinterested. It's that weird conundrum where strong feelings for a person can manifest in the exact opposite types of behavior than desired or intended. Sometimes emotions are hard to understand and when confronted with them our brains don't quite know how to interpret them, I suppose. Like how little boys chase girls and pull their hair - I guess we never really outgrow that :)

But I do love Austen's wit and humor and the playful tone of the book really transcends time. I kept laughing out loud and I guess I forgot how funny she can be, or I just didn't catch on the first time I read this book!

I thoroughly enjoyed my re-read. I've read it so many times, I've lost count! This time I treated myself to the recent Folio Society edition. It was so nice to read a beautifully bound edition with lovely paper.

>14 luvamystery65: Agreed re Mr. Bennet, Roberta, even though he does have some great lines. This angle on him comes out in Longbourn, too.

I just rewatched Bride & prejudice, and enjoyed the ties to the book very much.

>24 MarthaJeanne: Oh, Bride and Prejudice is a hoot, isn't it? My daughter and I got a kick out of it, including the Bollywood song and dance.

I think that knowing Pride and Prejudice is a help in following it. The story isn't exactly the same, but quite often you know what to think of people once you figure out who they are in P&P. And the mothers are just so similar in spite of the big cultural difference.

#19 & 20 - Christina - further to your post and my following answer, I found this article that you might find interesting: "Neither Sex, Money, nor Power: Why Elizabeth Finally Says Yes" by Elaine Bander. Along with many other Austen essays, you can find it at the JASNA site: http://www.jasna.org/

She argues that Elizabeth wasn't attracted to Darcy until almost the end of the novel and that she had to talk herself into loving him. The essay is well written, but I disagree with at least half of what she writes. I see that the author is retired, but it reads like someone who is either young or has very little life experience. And she neglected to mention the points I raised, I think she completely misunderstands the Roslings piano scene, and she doesn't seem to get that narrators sometimes say one thing and do or believe something else. Anyway, I mention it just to say that there isn't necessarily any one correct answer and the fun of this level of literature is figuring out what you think is going on. And that's also why it's fun to discuss these novels too.

Here's my question for the group: who do you think told Lady Catherine that Darcy was thinking of proposing to Elizabeth? One of my favourite Austen scholars, John Sutherland, convinced me that it was Charlotte Lucas. But then I read something today that convinced me that it couldn't have been. The author seems to think that Austen sort of made a mistake. I'm mulling it over and wondering if it could have been Darcy himself. What do you think?

>27 Nickelini: Thanks for the link! I know it can be argued that Elizabeth essentially accepts Darcy because he's a good guy and he's rich, not because she loves him -- but I personally reject that interpretation. :) I'm a hopeless romantic at heart!

Regarding your question, I think it was Caroline Bingley who told Lady Catherine. It makes sense that they would know each other, since Bingley and Darcy are such close friends…and I certainly believe Caroline would try to stir up trouble, hoping that Lady Catherine's intervention would cause Darcy to think twice about proposing.

>27 Nickelini: I hadn't ever thought about this issue until the annotated edition I read brought it up. It suggested Charlotte Lucas, probably in reference to the article you read (I don't have the book in front of me). As I think about it though, I can't think that anyone could have told Lady Catherine except Darcy himself and I don't think he would have. Why would anyone presume things were that far enough along with them to actually tell Lady Catherine? Elizabeth didn't tell anyone about the proposal and Darcy most likely didn't tell anyone either (except Col Fitzwilliam - maybe he could have let it slip?). Or may Mr. Collins just said enough things about their behavior while at Rosings that Lady Catherine jumped to conclusions (unknowingly the right one?)?

I guess I lean towards it being kind of a mistake on Austen's part, but I have to grit my teeth to say that as I still think it's a perfect book!

I'd just always assumed that Darcy told her. He's kind of a stickler for proper behavior and if there was some sort of implied understanding between the families that he would marry her daughter, wouldn't he feel compelled to make it clear to her that that was not going to happen?

But now that I'm actually thinking about it, it makes sense that Caroline Bingley would be the snitch, in an attempt to prevent that from happening, or just to stir up trouble.

I totally agree that Caroline would want to do it - except that wouldn't it have been pretty outside of social norms for Miss Caroline Bingley to presume to write to Lady de Burgh about her nephew's behavior?

Just pondering all the angles. Seems more likely to have been someone who would have been at Rosings and let it slip.

How about this scenario? Maria Lucas (Charlotte's sister) sees how much time Darcy has been spending at Longbourn while staying with Mr. Bingley, and speculates wildly about the fact to Charlotte in her weekly missive of gossip from home. :) Charlotte gets the letter while Lady Catherine is condescending to pay a call at the vicarage, and demands that Charlotte read it aloud because she's that much of a nosy so-and-so, and draws her own conclusions...

Great comments! I guess it will just have to be one of literature's mysteries, because the novel itself isn't supporting a definitive answer. I like all these ideas though.

I guess I lean towards it being kind of a mistake on Austen's part, but I have to grit my teeth to say that as I still think it's a perfect book!

I know what you mean. I have called P&P a perfect book, so I don't want to acknowledge this as a mistake. I would love to know what Austen was thinking, because I'm sure she knew exactly what happened behind the scenes.

You know, I expect she did know how Lady C. found out...but somehow forgot to work that into the story. It's an easy thing to do, if you don't have beta readers or a sharp-eyed continuity editor covering your back.

Either that, or she somehow knew how much fun future readers would have discussing the topic, and did it on purpose. ;)

Just came across this and thought it was interesting as I hadn't noticed it before:

His love for Elizabeth thus continues to grow even after her uncivil rejection, so much so that it enables him to pass the most severe of tests, that of willingly forging an unbreakable bond of kinship to Mr. Wickham. When Elizabeth’s foolish and headstrong young sister Lydia elopes with Mr. Wickham, apparently without any utterly certain intention of marrying, Elizabeth confesses the fact to Darcy, to whom she bitterly observes that her sister “‘is lost for ever’”(305). Her words literally repeat Darcy’s earlier words in speaking of his resentful nature, for he had said that once his good opinion is lost, it “‘is lost for ever’” (63), a specific turn of a phrase that occurs only these two times in the entire novel. Perhaps recalling his own words, Darcy is described as “fixed in astonishment” (305), and if ever there were a moment in which a family should lose forever his good opinion, this is the moment.

But of course they (or Elizabeth) doesn't actually lose his good opinion.

More at: http://jasna.org/persuasions/on-line/vol30no1/hodges.html

Today, as I was reading the last quarter of the book, Lizzie wonders how Lady Catherine heard of a possibility of an engagement and she decides that the Lucas family may have thought that with Jane's engagement she might be in Darcy's company through Bingley and thus another marriage might ensue. They would naturally inform Mrs. Collins of their speculations and Mr. Collins would then mention it the next time he saw Lady Catherine as being very likely. Somewhat later Mr. Bennett reads a letter to his daughter from Mr. Collins that pretty well confirms her theory.

>35 Nickelini: that's interesting. I had never connected that the phrase was present in both scenes.

>36 hailelib: I forgot about the letter from Mr. Collins when we were discussing this. That does make it seem even more likely to me that the news of Elizabeth and Darcy's closeness and possibility of engagement came to Lady Catherine through Charlotte and Mr. Collins in some manner.

I actually thought it was interesting that Darcy admits that Lady Catherine's lecture to him on not marrying Elizabeth spurred him to hope that she might reconsider. I think I had been putting more emphasis on him just seeing her again while Bingley is re-courting Jane and assuming he would have of course asked her again just because of their proximity.

Well, we will never know for certain, because the text is not clear. Charlotte is a poplar candidate, and I was once certain it was her. But the problem is that Charlotte may have guessed, but there is no way she would have known because Darcy wouldn't have confided in her. If he "scarcely allowed himself to hope" before hearing of Lady Catherine's run in with Elizabeth, he certainly wasn't talking about it to Charlotte before hand. The article that got me rethinking this is "Darcy's Intentions" at http://www.jasna.org/ (The article also talks about Mr Collin's letter)

Well, Mr. Collins was just the type to take a possibility and make it into a certainty in his own mind. And Lady Catherine called it a rumor...

#39 - He does do that, doesn't he!

Further to the question of when exactly Elizabeth changed her mind about Mr Darcy, I just came across this:

(Netherfield Ball scene after Darcy approaches Charlotte and Elizabeth and asks the later to dance)

Charlotte: "I dare say you will find him very agreeable"
to which Elizabeth answers "Heaven forbid! -- That would be the greatest misfortune of all! -- To find a man agreeable whom one is determined to hate! -- Do not wish me such an evil!"

I read this as mostly in jest but partly true. I think the lady doth protest too much. "greatest misfortune" "determined to hate" "such an evil". I guess one could read this to be entirely in jest, but combined with such similar hints, I think not.

Maybe Charlotte simply meant, "well, he'll be a good dancer and won't embarrass you. And he'll be polite and proper." To which I would expect Elizabeth to say "yeah, it'll be better than dancing with Mr Collins. I'll survive." (I paraphrase). Charlotte did not say "it's going to be so awesome that you're going to fall in love." Elizabeth once again is not listening.

Actually, that wasn't what I came here to post. I had a question about opinions of the dance at Netherfield, but reading through the conversation and my heavily annotated and noted edition, I find I have so many questions about this scene. What is going on? So many lines in this can be taken so many different ways. (which is actually similar to real life when one is in an awkward situation with someone and there are all sorts of things going on -- decorum, mixed feelings, uncertain feelings, sexual tension. Who knows what anyone is saying?)

My original question is: When Darcy says, "I can readily believe, . . . that report may vary greatly with respect to me; and I could wish, Miss Bennet, that you were not to sketch my character at the present moment, as there is reason to fear that the performance would reflect no credit on either."

"that report" = what Wickham says.

I always took this conversation, specifically "the present moment" to mean "since you're smitten with Wickham". But now I'm not sure that Darcy knows that she IS smitten with Wickham.

What do you think he means by "this present moment"? And if it's not "you're crushing on a liar, so just stop this line of thought," what else could it be? Is it a more simple, "don''t assume you know me from what you've seen so far"?

Any enlightenment on this scene is appreciated. I have a lot of notes on it, but when I watch the DVD with my teenage daughters, they ask what's going on, and line-for-line, I can't tell them. I find this one of the more confusing parts of the novel.

One of the reasons I like Mr Darcy so much is that he is a puzzle. There is little puzzle to Mr Collins, Jane, Caroline. The puzzle characters are the fun ones.

The puzzle characters are the fun ones.

I just reread what I wrote, and have to say that Mr Collins and Caroline are actually a lot of fun. But they aren't the ones who drive my love for this novel. Jane Austen is full of the un-puzzle fun characters (big soft spot for Lady Bertram in Mansfield Park, watching dust motes and cuddling her pug on the sofa, but too busy to actually raise her children. Oops, that's a conversation for next month).

Going back to Klarusu at #22 - This time I treated myself to the recent Folio Society edition. It was so nice to read a beautifully bound edition with lovely paper.

I meant to ask you when you posted this . . . how do you buy Folio Society editions. I researched it on the internet after either buying one on the internet, or having people ask me if I bought one . . . I'd never heard of them. Now I've seen Folios, but I'm puzzled as to where to find them. (sorry, off topic--an explanatory link will work)

>42 Nickelini: I don't think that Darcy is thinking of Elizabeth as being smitten with Wickham yet at this point in the novel. I think he is simply thinking that Wickham might have said bad things about him to Elizabeth and he's trying to warn her not to believe everything she hears. I also think "the performance would reflect no credit on either" is a commentary from Austen through Darcy's voice on the dangers of judging by appearance or without enough information. It will "reflect no credit" on Darcy if Wickham's version of his character is accepted, and it will "reflect no credit" on Elizabeth for jumping to wrong conclusions based on Wickham's charming nature. She replies "If I don't take your likeness now, I may never have another opportunity", making it even clearer that she intends a rush to judgment because she might not have any other option for getting to know him or the back story of Wickham and Darcy.

I have to say, I'm really enjoying all this discussion!!

>42 Nickelini: I am reading The Annotated Pride and Prejudice, annotated by David Shapard. Although I'm not quite as far as the Netherfield Ball, here is Shapard's take on that quote:

That is, he fears that her judging him now would put both of them in a bad light--him because her verdict would be negative, her because she would turn out to be wrong.

>45 japaul22: This agrees with your perspective. Although I've read the novel many times, this is my first time with Shapard. I'll be posting some other notes of his later, when I get a bit farther along.

Shapard has another interesting take on this scene.

Darcy asks: "May I ask to what these questions tend?"
"Merely to the illustration of your character," said she, endeavoring to shake off her gravity. "I am trying to make it out."

Shapard notes:

Though Elizabeth claims to be interested in Darcy's character, in fact she shows little real interest here in examining him, except for the purpose of confirming her existing condemnation of him. In many ways this exchange does more to illustrate her character than his.

Wonderful observation by Shapard, I think.

I edited my question in #42 to clarify what I was asking.

#45 & 46 - Yes, I read the Shapard last year and enjoy his commentary very much. There is also something interesting going on in that section about "illustration," "sketching," and "performance," . . . later Elizabeth will get to see a real illustration of Darcy when she visits Pemberley and gazes at his portrait.

I don't think that Darcy is thinking of Elizabeth as being smitten with Wickham yet at this point in the novel. Jennifer -- I'm leaning toward that too. I'm not sure why I originally thought otherwise. I'll make a note to watch out for this in my rereading and see what the text reveals.

I have to say, I'm really enjoying all this discussion - Me too. P&P is such a fun novel to discuss, especially when the conversation participants are close readers who love detail.

>48 Nickelini: And to pick up on the word "performance," that theme appears throughout the novel as well. Characters who "perform" too much are portrayed negatively, like Mary with her weak singing. During the conversation about what constitutes an accomplished woman, Caroline Bingley rattles off a long list of ways a woman must "perform" to get a husband: "a thorough knowledge of music, singing, drawing, dancing, and the modern languages . . . and besides all this, she must possess a certain something in her air and manner of walking, the tone of her voice, her address and expressions." But Darcy realizes that something more substantial is needed, and I think that's why he's drawn to Elizabeth (who also plays the piano, but in an "easy and unaffected" manner). At Rosings, he even tells Elizabeth that neither of them "perform" to strangers.

#49 - Good stuff! Poor Caroline--all those years of practising her performance and she still doesn't get her man.

I tried to post a funny picture here but it did that disappearing trick that seems to happen at LT. Sorry!

>44 Nickelini: I'm UK based and buy from www.foliosociety.com I think their prices are steeper for N America though.

I decided not to read this thread until after I finished the book. Now I'm so far behind in the discussion, I don't know where to start.

More evidence that it was Mr. Collins who told Lady Catherine the rumor about Darcy getting engaged to Lizzie. When Lady Catherine shows up at Longbourn, Lizzie asks her if Charlotte and Mr. Collins are well. Her response is: "Yes, very well. I saw them the night before last." Then when they are walking, Lady Catherine says, "A report of a most alarming nature, reached me two days ago." So that would be the day she saw Mr. Collins. I can't believe Charlotte would have told Lady C. Maybe Charlotte was happy about the news and let it drop to her husband.

7> I was surprised to see that Austen decided to describe the second marriage proposal of Darcy to Elizabeth instead of using that dialogue as she usually did before. I'm wondering how she made this choice – maybe to avoid sentimentalism? I think it would be difficult to find the perfect words, and this way, the reader can imagine the proposal as romantic as she likes.

8> I disagree about it not being a dramatic moment. After the way she told Darcy off when he first proposed, he said he would never express those sentiments again. She had no reason to believe he would propose again, no matter what his feelings, until Lady Catherine showed up. Then when Lady C. tells Darcy what Lizzie said, he has hope that her feelings towards him have changed since she didn't tell Lady C. that Darcy was "the last in man in the world" she would ever marry. Before Lady C. talked to him, Darcy didn't intend to propose because Lizzie had already rejected him most vehemently.

I get the feeling that Austen saved dialogue mostly for times and circumstances when she wanted to be able to illustrate character.
Those conversations also extend the scene so it makes a stronger impression on the reader, and the reader also gets an idea of what Lizzie is thinking about what the other person says - like how easily she believes Wickham because of her prejudice against Darcy.

10> Elizabeth becomes more attached to social conventions and more conventional herself. Lizzie always cared about social conventions - that's why she was so embarrassed by her family (except for Jane & her father). She was more unconventional in that she wasn't awed by people of higher social status and spoke her mind frankly. That's what surprised Lady C. who was used to bullying people with her status and attitude. She marries for love which is unconventional. She teases her proud, imposing husband, and Miss Darcy learns from her not to be so in awe of people. She's still Lizzie though and at one point says, "I'm happier even than Jane; she only smiles, I laugh."

11> I agree with most of what you said, but just to clarify - everyone (including Darcy!) would expect her to accept his proposal, not that they'd expect him to propose to her.

That's enough for now. Will have to give more thought to the rest of the discussion.

The edition I read was the Penguin Enriched E-book for Kindle. One feature I really enjoyed was that the "footnotes" were linked to on the page, so when you saw a number, you just tapped on it and the note came up in a popup box. Very convenient. The book's introduction is OK; mostly an explanation of which edition of the text was used. There are several articles at the end of the book that I haven't had time to read.

I'm having trouble getting the right addition with the touchstones, so I'll give the link to Amazon instead:
Pride and Prejudice Enriched E-book

>54 BookLizard: You can't get it as a touchstone because it isn't a separate work.

For those interested, there is a tutored read of Mansfield Park beginning today here: http://www.librarything.com/topic/188460#

Be sure to read the first post of this thread carefully, as a "tutored" read differs from a "group" read. It is being led by lyzard, who has a vast knowledge of 18th and 19th cent British literature, politics, history and customs.

I just found this thread! I just finished rereading this by listening to the audiobook, narrated by Flo Gibson.

>42 Nickelini: I have always thought that Darcy meant that a discussion of his character & any charges Wickham may have made against him was not appropriate for the dance floor. He is such a private person that he would likely say something cutting to shut down the conversation which would cause embarrassment to both of them.

>44 Nickelini: I've bought almost all of the folio society books that I own on ebay. Folio society used to operate by subscription. You would have to commit to buying, I think, four books in a calendar year. Now they sell books singly, but they are a small press and only have a limited selection of books in print each year. There's a folio society group on LT if you're interested.

#53 Glad you showed up, BookLizard. The edition you're using sounds great.

More evidence that it was Mr. Collins who told Lady Catherine the rumor about Darcy getting engaged to Lizzie. . . .

Except the problem is that Mr Collins would have no way of knowing anything. Even if Charlotte surmised, based on what she saw when Elizabeth was visiting, neither Mr Collins or Charlotte had seen Darcy and Elizabeth together for about 6 months. And even if they had seen the couple together recently, it's a leap from making a hunch based on observations and actually having knowledge. We know that there is no way that Darcy confided in either of them.

And then, as you say, and a really crucial point . . . Before Lady C. talked to him, Darcy didn't intend to propose because Lizzie had already rejected him most vehemently.

For the Charlotte or Mr Collins theory to work, it would mean they had foreknowledge of something Darcy himself did not know.

I do like the Caroline Bingley suggestion above, but as Jennifer says, I totally agree that Caroline would want to do it - except that wouldn't it have been pretty outside of social norms for Miss Caroline Bingley to presume to write to Lady de Burgh about her nephew's behavior? .
Also, it's not supported in the text.

The only thing I can think of is that Lady Catherine got Darcy in a corner and demanded he set a date to marry her daughter. He of course would have adamantly refused, and perhaps somewhere in the conversation he made some comment about Elizabeth hoping that it would shut her up. That's the best I can come up with at this point.

I'm sadly resigned to look at this now as an error in a text I thought was perfect. Oh well. But this conversation has been very helpful at working through the details and possibilities.

If you're interested, the article that got me thinking about this is: "Darcy’s Intentions: Solving
a Narrative Puzzle in Pride and Prejudice" at www.jasna.org

#57 - was not appropriate for the dance floor. He is such a private person that he would likely say something cutting to shut down the conversation which would cause embarrassment to both of them.

Ah, yes, I see. That works. Of course, they did end up shutting down the conversation anyway.

Thanks!

59> You're right that Darcy wouldn't have told Charlotte or Mr. Collins. It was most likely Sir William Lucas telling Charlotte by letter. They were close and Sir William liked to gossip and match-make. At one dance, he tried to get Lizzie and Darcy to dance, but Lizzie refused. Then when they were dancing at Netherfield, Sir Lucas came by and alluded to Jane marrying Bingley. That's what made Darcy want to "save" his friend from an unfortunate marriage. Sir Lucas was also the one who brought news of Charlotte's engagement to the Bennets - not Charlotte herself. I'm sure there are other examples, but I've always thought that Charlotte found out about the rumor and Mr. Collins told Lady Catherine.

For the Charlotte or Mr Collins theory to work, it would mean they had foreknowledge of something Darcy himself did not know.
Not necessarily. Only Jane knew that Darcy had already proposed once and been rejected, and she wouldn't likely tell anyone. People don't need knowledge or facts to speculate and start rumors. Lots of people thought Bingley would propose to Jane - a rumor spread by Mrs. Bennet herself! And since Sir William had earlier suggested that Bingley & Jane would marry, he could have also speculated about Lizzie and Darcy. Charlotte would have believed the rumor and Lizzie even suggests that Lady C. must believe it to have come all the way to Longbourn.

I see what you're saying, but the theory isn't working for me anymore. The Netherfield ball was in November, so for rumours still be floating around almost a year later--and to the extent of alarming Lady Catherine--I don't buy it. I used to firmly believe it, but the more I think about it the less sense it makes. But we'll really never know one way or another.

Seeing as the whole Bingley group knew that Elizabeth had been at Darcy's, I think that the rumour probably started there, but it need not have been Caroline who passed it onto Lady Catherine. A lot of rumours were passed on by servants. In fact, if Darcy had been back to Rosings, it could even have been through one of his servants that one of her servants learned that she and her aunt and uncle had been received there.

Martha - I never thought of that. It's a possibility.

My name is MarthaJeanne.

62> Something to look for the next time we reread it.

One thing that occurred to me from this discussion is that Lizzie may not be as funny as we think she is. Since the story is told from Lizzie's point of view, we may confuse her with the narrator. Lizzie is funny, but the narrator is definitely funny, too.

My name is MarthaJeanne.

Oh, sorry. Excuse me.

One thing that occurred to me from this discussion is that Lizzie may not be as funny as we think she is. Since the story is told from Lizzie's point of view, we may confuse her with the narrator. Lizzie is funny, but the narrator is definitely funny, too.

Now that's a really interesting comment. Another thing to watch out for when rereading. Oh, the fun of free indirect discourse.

Not to derail this excellent discussion, but I've been binging on the P&P-based stuff, rewatching the BBC mini-series (still excellent) and then branching out to The Lizzie Bennett Diaries, which were a surprisingly fun and well-done update (it also blew my son's mind that I was watching a YouTube series, and he now is under the (mistaken) impression that I will want to watch his favorite YouTube series). And I'm now reading Longbourn by Jo Baker, which is about the servants, but the events of the novel percolate in the background. Baker seems clearly of the Mr. Bennet is not such a great guy school of thought.

#69 - Ridgeway! Nice to see you here. I've been binging on P&P-based stuff lately too. Bridget Jones, "Fitzwilliam Darcy, Gentleman" series, all sorts of bits and pieces. Have you seen Lost in Austen? I thought it was fun. I did enjoy the Lizzie Bennett Diaries but my family was glad to see them done as I listened on the kitchen computer whilst doing other things. Being a big Mr Darcy fan, I was pleased with their casting of that role.

I have Longbourn on my TBR and will read it soon as one of my book club friends just read it and had a very strange reaction (she says it's nothing about the servants and just someone retelling P&P and doesn't know how it can even be allowed to be published. So seeing that the 100 reviews of it and the back of the books says "P&P from the servants POV" I really need to get to it).

>68 RidgewayGirl: I'm also reading Longbourn right now and dipping into Pride and Prejudice and Zombies which is very silly.

>69 Nickelini: It's all about the servants. Mr. Bennet does not come off nicely here and Wickham is just creepy. Baker is very kind about Mary. I'm still in the beginning of the 3rd volume so we shall see.

#70 - It's all about the servants. Of course it is, isn't it! I can't even imagine what my friend was thinking. I started it last night and I'm on chapter 4 and so far it's all servants. I look forward to discussing it with her.

I see in IMDb that a movie is being developed. I would like to see that.

>69 Nickelini: Yep. In the kitchen while I put together dinner was where I watched The Lizzie Bennet Diaries, too. I will look up Lost in Austen. Funny how much there is and how compelling it is, even when you're going over the same plot with essentially the same characters over and over.

>70 luvamystery65: Pride and Prejudice and Zombies is great fun. One thing to remember about the offshoots is that you can't be too emotionally invested in your favorite character. I enjoy seeing how others see one of my favorite books.

I'm halfway through Longbourn and I'm enjoying it immensely. I do wish Baker had been kinder to Wickham, because I kind of like him, scoundrel though he is. But I love how she sees both Mary and Mr Collins. And Sarah and the other servants are wonderful characters.

>65 MarthaJeanne: My entire life people have misspelled my first name and mispronounced my second name so I had to learn to just let it go.

#72 - Ridgeway - I will look up Lost in Austen. and then I do wish Baker had been kinder to Wickham, because I kind of like him, scoundrel though he is.

Oh, in that case, I predict you will like Lost in Austen very much. You can find it on YouTube.

I thought Longbourn was terrific. She's very clever in filling in the P & P "gaps" and back stories, and telling an engaging story. But Wickham does come across as villainously creepier.

I got a kick out of Lost in Austen, too. Lots of fun.

I'm also listening to Longbourn. I started it as an audiobook a week or so ago and I'm really enjoying it. I think it was brilliant to use the servants' point of view because the author doesn't have to compete with every reader's version of how Austen wrote her characters. But you still get to relive the story. Fun!

I think another charm of Longbourn is that it ties in the popularity of Downton Abbey. A fun combination.

>72 RidgewayGirl: & >75 jnwelch: I'm not sure it was necessary to make him quite so creepy. He's already a cad, but it's her story to tell. I did like that she made Mary and Mr.Collins more sympathetic. I'm wrapping it up so let me get back to it. ;-)

I watched the Colin Firth/Jennifer Ehle version of P&P this weekend…one of my favorite movies, and I hadn't seen it in a while, so it was lovely to revisit it!

This is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to remind everyone that if you're reading along with the Jane Austen year-long read, our next book will be Mansfield Park. We've set aside March and April to read it, and the discussion thread (with spoilers!) will be posted April 15. Apparently one LT member is doing a tutored read this month, as mentioned at >56 kac522: above.

And now please return to your regularly scheduled discussion of P&P! :)

>79 christina_reads: I watched the first episode yesterday evening. I'll probably continue this next weekend.

>66 BookLizard: One thing that occurred to me from this discussion is that Lizzie may not be as funny as we think she is. Since the story is told from Lizzie's point of view, we may confuse her with the narrator. Lizzie is funny, but the narrator is definitely funny, too.

Yes! The annotated version I read pointed out how often Austen subtly shifts from her authorial POV to the POV of whichever character she is describing. Often it's hard to tell if it's the author commenting or supposed to be the thoughts of the character. I had never noticed this before because Austen does it so seamlessly, but it does change the meaning of certain passages if you change who the observation comes from. I wish I had some specific examples . . .

It's something to notice in subsequent books that we read this year, if nothing else.

I didn't reread P&P for this group read, but I did thoroughly skim through my master copy, reread some areas, and continue to make notes. What stood out for me on this reading was how entirely tone deaf Mrs Bennet is to Elizabeth's developing relationship with Darcy. Here we have, stated all over the first chapter of the book, that this woman wants nothing more than for her daughters to marry rich men. And after the first bad incident with Darcy, she goes completely blind. Charlotte is the most astute, and sees things before Elizabeth does. Even Jane says when Elizabeth reveals their engagement: "Nothing could give either Bingley or myself more delight. But we considered it, we talked of it as impossible." Yet Mrs Bennet, who had one goal throughout the whole novel, missed every single sign. That makes me smile.

Here's a Mrs Bennet question: in all the various film adaptions (right down to Bridget Jones's Diary, who is your favourite (or least favourite) Mrs Bennet?

Although I really love the 1995 BBC P&P, and I do appreciate what Alison Steadman did with the role, I found her too shrill and hysterical. I actually prefer Brenda Blethyn in the 2005 version (a movie I dislike). But my favourite is Alex Kingston in Lost in Austen (maybe because I just like that actress though). From the same show, Hugh Bonneville is a fine Mr Bennet, although that part is not the same Mr Bennet that appears in the novel. This Mr Bennet is much sweeter than the actual Mr Bennet.

>82 Nickelini: See, I love Alison Steadman as Mrs. Bennet! She IS very shrill and hysterical, but that matches the picture of Mrs. Bennet I have in my head. Plus, she never fails to crack me up! But I can see how the performance would be a bit grating to others.

I've always liked the Mrs. Bennet in the 1980 BBC version--sweet, somewhat empty-headed, but persistent. I find Alison Steadman too hysterical for my liking.

I remember once going to a lecture about P&P, where the speaker said that despite how we may think of Mrs. Bennet and her plans for her daughters, at the end of the novel she has accomplished a major part of her goal--three of her daughters are married! So in a way, she wins in the end :)

>84 kac522: Very true, Mrs. Bennet does get her way! And I've always thought that Kitty would eventually get married as well, so that's even more success for Mrs. B. :)

I finally finished The Annotated Pride and Prejudice, annotated by David Shapard. This took much longer to read than I anticipated. For every page of text, Shapard has a facing page of notes, which are thorough, but then required me to re-read what I'd just read to fully absorb the meaning. And there are LOTS of notes--for example, the chapter of Elizabeth's first visit to Pemberley has 90 footnotes! Some of the footnotes seemed obvious or unnecessary to me, but most were helpful.

He has some very good observations, especially about the plot development, character study, and Austen's style. He shows how Austen uses dialogue to reveal character, and how the characters remain consistent to their natures throughout the book. There are many notes on typical 18th century daily life: meal times, etiquette, protocol, servants, transportation, social status, etc. There's even a chronology of the book's plot; Shapard has much of the book down to exact dates (the book takes place chiefly over a year's time--September through the following September/October).

This is NOT for someone reading P&P for the first time, as he has many notes that would be considered spoilers. But he does this in order to explain how Austen has "set up" our expectations and to show contrasts with later passages. If you love Austen, this book is a must.

>7 librivendola: In his book, Shapard has a specific footnote about the second proposal, and why he feels it's not spelled out in dialogue:

"As in other novels, Jane Austen only provides a general summary of what is said in a successful proposal. She always avoids relating enthusiastic lovers' talk (except when she ridicules foolish examples of it). In this scene she only returns to direct dialogue when the characters have resumed speaking in more analytical or ironic tones, the tones that are most congenial to Jane Austen."

This explanation does make some sense, although I don't know that I find it completely satisfying.

Thank you Kathy! Yes, it's not completely satisfying, but maybe it's better not to know everything about the intentions of the author to leave some space for our own imagination...

Still browsing around Persuasions Online, and I found this article. I've never thought of all the "meddling" (and lack of meddling) in P&P before and found this interesting: http://www.jasna.org/persuasions/on-line/vol21no2/salber.html

For those interested in the annotated edition by Harvard U Press, here is an interesting 3 minute video: https://vimeo.com/16940509