The Italian by Ann Radcliffe - lyzard tutoring SqueakyChu

The Italian; or, The Confessional Of The Black Penitents by Ann Radcliffe (1797)

Hello, and welcome to the tutored read of Ann Radcliffe's The Italian - my "tutee" will be Madeline (SqueakyChu). We have already examined together a number of Gothic (and related) novels, including Northanger Abbey (in which Jane Austen has some fun with readers who take novels such as this a little too seriously), The Castle Of Otranto by Horace Walpole, Clermont by Regina Maria Roche, The Monk by Matthew Gregory Lewis and Castle Of Wolfenbach by Eliza Parsons.

Participants and lurkers are very welcome to join in, as long as they follow a few simple rules. Comments and questions are encouraged, but we do ask that no-one refer to anything in the text beyond the point that Madeline indicates that she is up to. Any questions, comments or quotes should be preceded by a chapter number in bold, so that spoilers can be avoided.

The Italian - background, setting, and historical importance

Background
The Italian was the last of Ann Radcliffe's novels published within her lifetime; after its publication, she seems to have stopped writing. Radcliffe was a very private person and not much is known for certain of her life; it has been suggested that she stopped writing when she realised that critics were, in effect, attempting to psychoanalyse her from her novels. (Thanks, critics!)

The Italian first appeared late in 1796, but carried a copyright date of 1797. (This was a common practice at the time and was also the case with more than one of Jane Austen's novels.) Radcliffe revised her text slightly for the second edition, and since this has since been considered the definitive text, 1797 is almost invariably given as the novel's publication date.

It seems certain that Radcliffe wrote The Italian in response to Matthew Gregory Lewis's The Monk, which had been the literary cause célèbre of 1796 and was, among other works, greatly influenced by Radcliffe's The Mysteries Of Udolpho. However, in tone, content and execution, The Monk is as far from one of Radcliffe's novels as it could be - so that there is a possibility that Radcliffe meant The Italian as a riposte to Lewis, a lesson in how to write a "proper" Gothic novel. There are allusions to The Monk all the way through The Italian, but in each case the scene is handled differently by Radcliffe.

Setting
Gothic novels are almost invariably the work of English Protestant authors, but set in "foreign" (French, Italian or Spanish) Catholic countries. The contrast between safe, lawful England and dangerous, lawless foreign lands is often explicit. Novels such as this are also commonly set in "the past", although little if any attempt is made to tie the plot to actual historical events or figures.

The Italian is somewhat different from the majority of Gothic novels, in that not only is it set only decades before the time at which it was written, but precisely dated within the text.

The main action is set in Naples, prior to the unification of Italy. At the time Naples was under Spanish dominion; the king briefly referred to in the text was Charles, Duke of Parma, who later became Charles III of Spain.

Since the main characters are therefore technically Spanish, Radcliffe is able to distinguish the character of Father Schedoni as The Italian.

Historical importance
Many academics have discussed the contrasting styles of Ann Radcliffe and Matthew Lewis in terms of "terror" and "horror". "Terror", during the late 18th century, was considered an emotion that expanded the senses and awakened an individual to new experiences; whereas "horror" resulted in a contraction of the senses and a rejection of external stimuli. The critic Devendra Varma (author of The Gothic Flame, an important study of the Gothic novel) defined "terror" as "awful apprehension", and "horror" as "sickening realisation". In other words, the line is crossed when what has been feared becomes a reality.

Following this line of argument, Matthew Lewis, who was himself influenced by a number of German writers (the Germans almost alone at this time had a tradition of what would now call horror fiction), is often viewed as an important figure in the development of the modern horror novel.

In contrast, the Gothic novel, as executed by Ann Radcliffe, gave rise first to the "domestic Gothic" (the exemplar of which is Jane Eyre), then in turn to the sensation novel and detective fiction. A distinction is often drawn between a horror to be experienced, and a mystery to be solved. The latter is generally viewed as a far more conservative form of writing, since it usually concludes with the re-establishment of the status quo; while the aim of horror is to disrupt normality.

Character list:

Ellena di Rosalba - a beautiful girl of Naples, well-bred but not noble
Signora Bianchi - her aunt and guardian

Vincentio di Vivaldi - a young nobleman of Naples
The Marchese di Vivaldi - his father
The Marchesa di Vivaldi - his mother

Father Schedoni - a Dominican monk

Bonarmo - a friend of Vivaldi
Signor Giotto - a relative of Signora Bianchi

Beatrice - maidservant to Signora Bianchi
Paolo - manservant to Vivaldi

***********************************************************

A very notable feature of The Italian is the sheer quantity of convents and monasteries that feature in the text. Since it is very easy to get these confused and lose track of where the narrative is at any given time, I have decided to include a list of all the religious houses mentioned under their various titles. (Note that at this time, the terms "monastery" and "convent" were sometimes used interchangeably.)

Religious houses:

Santa Maria del Pianto - a church in Naples, belonging to a convent (monastery) of the Order of the Black Penitents
San Lorenzo - a church in Naples
Spirito Santo - a Dominican convent (monastery) in Naples
Santa Maria della Pieta - a convent in Naples
San Stefano - a convent high in the Alps

>3 lyzard: Thanks for the background info Liz. The text of my edition (OUP 1998) says it's based on the first edition of 1797 and that a second edition appeared later that year. A bit embarrassing that they got the initial publication date wrong!

I shall be following along. I have the ebook collection of the 'Northanger Horrid Novels'.

I'll be lurking here, too...

I'm here and will be reading the book and following with interest. I've also gotten the Northanger Horrid Novels collection. Some of you may have seen this on my thread already, but I thought the Kindle cover was too ugly for words, so designed my own which anyone is free to use of course (it's already uploaded on all the pertinent book pages):

>1 lyzard:

Hi Liz, I'm on board for today, but I'm not sure about the rest of this week because I'm scheduled for minor surgery tomorrow. I'll check in later this week at some point but do not worry if I'm missing for a day or two.

1. What exactly is a "domestic gothic"?

2. What exactly is a "sensation novel"?

I seem to be more drawn to novels of horror and disruption of normality! They make for much more fun reading. :)

Yay, company! :)

>5 souloftherose: Well, I guess it's one of those things obsessives are more likely to pick up on: the first edition was dated 1797 but advertisements for it and reviews of it in several publications indicate it was released late in 1796. I don't know why this was done but, as I mentioned, it was also the case with Jane Austen's novels (Emma was published December 1815 but is copyright 1816), so it must have been a standard publishing practice. The difference is, when it's Austen, people notice. :)

>6 CDVicarage: Hi, Kerry - great to have you joining in!

>7 scaifea: Lovely to see you here, Amber. :)

>8 Smiler69: Hi, Ilana - I hope you enjoy it!

>9 SqueakyChu: That's fine, Madeline - everything at your own pace. Hope your surgery goes well; take care of yourself.

The evolution from the Gothic novel proper to the domestic Gothic to the sensation novel occurred over about seventy years. Gothic novels, as we've seen, were usually set in "the past" and in "a foreign country". The genre died off in the early decades of the 19th century, but revived in a different form when Charlotte Bronte published Jane Eyre.

Although Jane Eyre is a very English novel it uses many of the Gothic novel tropes, with its heroine in an isolated house where there is a dangerous mystery, and has her attracted to a man who may also be dangerous. This is an example of the "domestic Gothic" which became even more popular in the 20th century after Daphne Du Maurier brought the Gothic tropes up-to-date in Rebecca.

The sensation novel was another contemporary version of the Gothic novel popular in the 1860s and 1870s, which was set in modern England but included Gothic-like elements including plots built around secret identities, dangerous secrets, and murder.

There's more "terror" than "horror" in The Italian, I'm afraid! - Radcliffe didn't approve of Lewis. :)

>10 lyzard:

Radcliffe didn't approve of Lewis.

Too bad! :)

Oh boo! I hadn't read your intro yet when I'd posted my first comment as was intending to come back when I had more time, and now I have, I'm afraid I won't be able to follow along after all; since this novel is a response to The Monk, if feel I really should read that one first. I know you did a tutored read for that one, so I guess I'll come back to this one in due time. Too bad! :-(

Introduction:

1. What should I know about the Black Penitants?

2. is "cloke" another way of spelling "cloak"?

3. The "party that had just entered" seems to portend evil as his description states "...seemed expressive of uncommon ferocity".

Volume I, Chapter I, Part I:
...in which we meet Ellena Rosalba and Vincentio di Vivaldi

4. Why was Ellena Rosalba veiled?

5. Since the old lady turned out to be Ellena Rosalba's aunt, I'm curious to find out what happened to her parents. I'd like to know if Ellena was really an orphan. I don't trust these stories any more! :)

6. Define: "stretched beneath the umbrageous pines"

7. Referencing the line "listen to the sweetness of her accents"...does that refer to a foreign accent, a dialect, or just the sweet ring of Ellena Rosalba's voice?

8. I get the feeling that the Marchesa di Vivaldi is going to be an evil and vindictive character, yet her husband and son are both going to be "good guys".

9. Define: "that visited their grate."

...through page 8 at this line: "...performed the duties of one for her"

>12 Smiler69:

Liz, can't Ilana read The Italians first and then follow it with The Monk, or would that be just plain wrong?

I'll be following this thread, as I read the book years ago and am interested in Liz's thoughts on it, but mostly lurking, as it's been too long for me to comment intelligently and I'm not likely to squeeze it in soon.

I will mention, though, that the practice of copyrighting a work for the year after its publication is very much alive. As a cataloger I can reliably expect to start seeing copyright dates for the following year in late August or early September, and by December the current year is all but forgotten so far as publishers are concerned. I don't know why.

>12 Smiler69: & >14 SqueakyChu: There's no reason why you can't read The Italian first, Ilana: the allusions are no more than allusions - noticeable if you're familiar with both novels but no more than a nod from Radcliffe in the direction of Lewis.

I meant to ask who had read The Monk and who hadn't; now that I know you haven't I will use spoiler warnings if I want to say anything explicit, although for the most part it will just be pointing out minor coincident details.

>15 swynn: Lurking is good too!! Thank you for joining us, Steve - and thank you also for adding those comments on copyright. Very confusing - even upsetting for an obsessive like me! :)

Right!!

Introduction:

1. Nothing in particular - except perhaps that we should note how right from the beginning, Radcliffe uses the title of the order - Black Penitents - to suggest everything that English Protestants felt was wrong about foreign Catholics. This suggestion is expanded upon in the subsequent discovery that a murderer has been given sanctuary by the church, which horrifies the English traveller.

2. Yes.

3. Correct!

As I mentioned up above, this opening is unusual for a Gothic novel, since it is given an explicit date itself - 1764, 32 years before the novel was written - and will go on to place its action in 1758.

Volume I, Chapter I, Part I:

4. Because she is a modest, well-brought-up girl who doesn't want to be ogled by random young men (but is anyway). Girls at this time commonly wore a veil when out in public, and particularly when attending church, as it was a mark of modesty. It would be a white veil, as opposed to the black one worn by professed nuns (this is important later on).

5. Wait and see! :)

6. Creating shade.

7. Just the sweetness of her voice - "accent" in this context meant tone or modulation.

8. I'll say something more about that in a minute...

9. Some convents allowed contact between the nuns and the outside world, but with a kind of fence in between called a grate. This would most often be between the nuns and people who visited them, usually their families. In this case the nuns are selling beautiful embroidery to the ladies of Naples.

Does everyone's edition of The Italian have the epigraphs at the beginning of each paragraph chapter?

Radcliffe was careful in her choice of quotations, although the point of some of them is only obvious after you've finished the book.

Note the first one in particular---

"What is this secret sin; this untold tale,
That art cannot extract, nor penance cleanse?"

That's a quote from a play called The Mysterious Mother, by Madeline's old friend Horace Walpole. It was never produced, being considered too shocking: it deals with a woman who has an affair with, and gets pregnant by, her own son. This quotation lets us know that "secret sins" and "untold tales" are important here, and that perhaps they have something to do with twisted family relationships. It may also hint that Vivaldi's mother will be a significant player in the plot.

I won't keep this up (because Radcliffe doesn't), but the opening of The Italian echoes that of The Monk at almost every point, with a first encounter during a church service, the hero first attracted to a girl who is veiled because of the sweetness of her voice, the girl being accompanied by her aunt. The name of the young man in The Monk is Lorenzo; here, Vivaldi and Ellena meet at the church of San Lorenzo.

Chiming in to say that I hadn't read The Monk when I read The Italian (and I still haven't read The Monk yet), and I didn't feel lost at all.

>17 lyzard:

5. Wait and see!

Haha!

9. In this case the nuns are selling beautiful embroidery to the ladies of Naples.

I love this. Was it really done?

Other notes:

~ Ilana, was it you who number all questions in tutored threads with their own number throughout the entire thread? Anyway, I like this idea so I'm going to use it because it is less confusing.

~ My younger son had the good fortune to travel to Naples when he was in highs school. I will only have to imaging what that city is/was like.

>18 lyzard:

Does everyone's edition of The Italian have the epigraphs at the beginning of each paragraph?

You mean "chapter" not "paragraph. Mine does.

That's a quote from a play called The Mysterious Mother, by Madeline's old friend Horace Walpole. It was never produced, being considered too shocking: it deals with a woman who has an affair with, and gets pregnant by, her own son.

Well, if Radcliffe thinks that The Monk was too shocking, why is she using this epigraph which (indirectly) refers to incest?

>19 lyzard:

Volume I, Chapter I, Part I (continued)

10. Does the fact that Vincentio spies Ellena Rosalba in a church lend credence to the fact that the young lady is religious and therefore good and desirable?

Notes:

~ A sweet coincidence....

Yesterday my husband's great nephew's wife gave birth to a baby boy whom they named Giovanni Lorenzo. And...no...there is no one Italian in either family. The dad's American of Honduran/Salvadoran descent and the mom's American.

Another coincidence. This baby was born on my mom's birthday. Had she been alive yesterday, she would have been 100 years old!

Ok then, since you say it doesn't really matter Liz, I'll follow along as planned. Though I do prefer whenever possible to read original works first when a later work is written in response or refers to the former so I can catch all the allusions.

>24 Smiler69: You can always reread The Italian later! ;)

>25 SqueakyChu: True enough! :-)

>20 scaifea: & >24 Smiler69: No, there is no overt connection between the two novels that makes it essential to read The Monk first; merely there are a number of subtle textual connections, obviously deliberate on Radcliffe's part, that are evident if you have read The Monk, but which you do not need to recognise to appreciate The Italian.

>21 SqueakyChu:

9. Yes, indeed - many convents became famous for their needlework. Some of them (a little perversely, or so it can seem) were celebrated for making delicate women's underwear that was very expensive and very prized by the upper classes. The proceeds from the sale of such items were an important factor in some convents' income.

In this case, of course, the convent is making a profit from the sale of work done by Ellena.

>22 SqueakyChu: Oops, yes - corrected!

why is she using this epigraph which (indirectly) refers to incest?

Because it *is* indirect; that's the point.

This ties back into the argument about terror vs. horror. You could imply almost anything, you could have any terrible thing you liked happening as long as it happened long ago, or to someone else, or out of sight. You could have someone fearful of that thing happening to them. But when it did happen, and when it was described, in the present and in detail, the line was crossed.

Many people were horrified by The Monk, but it was as much a question of taste as anything else: Lewis was considered guilty of displaying extremely poor taste by graphically describing his various horrors, not just having them happen and telling us about it afterwards.

Likewise, The Mysterious Mother was shocking because it confronted the audience with the woman in question, rather than revealing her secret from a safe distance.

You see from this how the two different lines of literature evolved out of the two different approaches to the Gothic novel.

>23 SqueakyChu:

10. Yes - but not necessarily. Attendance at church would have been a normal part of life for a girl of Ellena's social position. It is only when we get to know Ellena that we can be sure that in her case, it is also an expression of her faith.

Welcome, Lorenzo! - that is an odd coincidence. And happy birthday to your mother. :)

On the left here is a picture of Naples with Mt Vesuvius in the background; on the right is a painting done around the time this novel is set, showing Vesuvius erupting:

    

Chapter 1

It was nearly midnight, and the stillness that reigned was rather soothed than interrupted by the gentle dashing of the waters of the bay below, and by the hollow murmurs of Vesuvius, which threw up, at intervals its sudden flame on the horizon, and then left it to darkness. The solemnity of the scene accorded with the temper of his mind, and he listened in deep attention for the returning sounds, which broke upon the ear like distant thunder muttering imperfectly from the clouds. The pauses of silence, that succeeded each groan of the mountain, when expectation listened for the rising sound, affected the imagination of Vivaldi at this time with particular awe, and, rapt in thought, he continued to gaze upon the sublime and shadowy outline of the shores, and on the sea, just discerned beneath the twilight of a cloudless sky. Along its grey surface many vessels were pursuing their silent course, guided over the deep waters only by the polar star, which burned with steady lustre. The air was calm, and rose from the bay with most balmy and refreshing coolness; it scarcely stirred the heads of the broad pines that overspread the villa; and bore no sounds but of the waves and the groans of the far-off mountain...

Some important things here:

- the tying of the descriptions of the scenery to the mood and situations of the characters. This became a vital aspect of the Gothic novel thanks to Radcliffe, and we will see examples of it all through The Italian.

- Vivaldi's appreciation of his surroundings, which was a measure of his "sensibility" (at this time, still a positive quality).

- a first reference to Vivaldi's "imagination". Gothic novels walked an odd line between exploiting the fear of the supernatural and criticising it. The Mysteries Of Udolpho is famous, or notorious, as an example of "explained-away horror", with seemingly supernatural events* eventually given a real-world explanation. Radcliffe has her cake and eats it, terrorising her readers with all sorts of apparent horrors before saying "but of course, there's no such thing as a ghost". In The Italian she does something slightly different, creating a less artificial situation by showing the susceptibility of people in this respect, their willingness to believe in a supernatural explanation (and even their disappointment when they don't get one!), without herself pretending to go along with it.

(*Having frankly supernatural events in his novel was another part of the gulf between Lewis and Radcliffe.)

My surgery (it was dental) was done. All seems okay. I'll proceed tonight with more reading. :)

>28 lyzard: Very cool pictures...both of them! Well, maybe one of them is hot (rather than cool).

>29 lyzard:

the tying of the descriptions of the scenery to the mood and situations of the characters

I love it!

>30 SqueakyChu:

Having frankly supernatural events in his novel was another part of the gulf between Lewis and Radcliffe

I love that very thin edge where it's sometimes hard to tell the supernatural from the "freakish" natural in contemporary novels. Hence my love for writers such as Haruki Murakami, Stephen King, Jonathan Carroll, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, and Meir Shalev. I think that writers such as these who play around with that "edge" in both urban fantasy and magical realism are having great fun with their readers as well as with their own writing.

Do you think that Matthew Gregory Lewis was trying to "shock" his readers by his writing in The Monk? Do you think that Anne Radcliffe is trying to "shelter" her readers from such shock? What is gained by sheltering them this way? Does that make Anne Radcliffe a more "politically correct" writer?

All seems okay.

Good news! Don't push yourself if you don't feel like it.

I love it!

Just as well. :)

Hey! I never finished msg #29. Go back and read the rest! :)

:D

{*read,read*}

You might remember from our discussion of The Monk that Lewis was only 19 when he wrote it, so he may have been deliberately trying to shock people (there probably was an element of that), but most likely he was just overenthusiastic and didn't correctly judge where the line was. Remember, too, how when the critics attacked him he started editing and revising the book to take the most shocking bits out? I think that suggests he didn't necessarily anticipate how the book would be received.

It isn't so much about trying to "shelter" people as simply that to that point, no-one had written a novel like that in England - one which not only had frankly supernatural elements, which was very much disapproved of at the time, but which rubbed the reader's nose in rape and murder and incest. Lewis transgressed all sorts of rules with it, but as I say, it was as much about the whole thing being in bad taste as anything else.

And really, has that changed so much? Wandering around LT I see lots of people who refuse to read horror at all, or who won't read books with supernatural elements, or featuring this or that sort of real-world violence. The only difference today is that perhaps there are a wider variety of tastes and opinions than there were in Radcliffe's time, and less criticism of people who write that way. But then you still do occasionally get the same sort of furore - the critical reaction to Bret Easton Ellis's American Psycho, for example.

>33 lyzard:

the critical reaction to Bret Easton Ellis's American Psycho, for example.

...which is here at home still unread and looks as if it needs to be moved up higher on my TBR list. :)

There you go: some people react one way, some people react the other. :)

Volume I, Chapter I, Part II
...in which Vincentio receives a warning

11. What is a "veil of retirement"?

12. Wasn't it presumptuous of Vincentio to be trespassing upon the grounds of villa Altieri?

13. Did Mount Vesuvius then erupt a little from time to time without threatening the city of Naples?

14. Why was Ellena Rosalba playing a lute while praying?

15. Why didn't Ellena scream when she saw Vicentio ? Didn't his appearance startle her?

16. Please define: "the danger which menaced him was from the poniard of jealousy"

17. What is the relationship between the Marchese and the King? Are they both royalty?

18. Why did the Marchese look at his son with displeasure? Was it his son's keeping such late hours, or was it his son's absence from the Marchesa's festivities?

Notes:

19. Again we find a young man and a young woman separated by assumed differing social class. I've come to learn that, if the social class differs at the beginning of a novel, it doesn't always differ at the end of the novel. This is particularly true if we are unsure who the real parents of the less affluent young woman are. Heh!

20. "...by a person in the habit of a monk"

I believe this person may or may not be a monk. I don't believe anything 100% which I read in these novels. :)

21. "Unhappy young man he knew not the fatal error into which his passion was precipitating him."

Uh Oh!

Melancholy Count = 1

"took his melancholy way to Naples"

Ends on page 12 with "...opposed his views of an enquiry."

Volume I, Chapter I, Part II

11. It means that Ellena lives a very private, secluded life and doesn't go out much except to go to church. Her whole life is "veiled", in that no-one knows very much about her.

12. Yes. But young men in love, you know... :)

13. Vesuvius erupted on six different occasions during the 18th century, and on other occasions emitted smoke and ash and small lava flows that weren't really eruptions and weren't considered dangerous. However, this was the volcano that destroyed Pompeii in 79AD. It last erupted in 1944 and is now considered very dangerous because it's been such a long time, and because the population in the area has grown so much.

14. She's singing a hymn. Music was (is) an important aspect of religious practice. Also, the lute was considered a "romantic" instrument and therefore appropriate for the heroine of a novel. :) (I think Madeline in Clermont played the lute, didn't she?)

15. Contrary to popular belief, not every heroine of every romantic novel screams on every occasion! :)

She was startled, yes, but obviously didn't feel threatened (probably because of...the spirit and dignity of his air, and by his countenance, so frank, noble, and full of that kind of expression, which announces the energies of the soul...) Also, she's probably as much embarrassed as frightened because she's just been sighing his name.

16. Tut, tut! You should know what a poniard is by now, Gothic Girl! :)

A poniard (also spelled "poignard") was a dagger worn as a defensive weapon by upper-class men during the Middle Ages.

It was the firm belief of all English novelists that "foreigners" went armed at all times, and that anyone could be murdered at any moment in places like Italy and Spain. Gothic novels are full of "assassins" wielding "poniards", and scenes of people being attacked and wounded or killed. (This happened in The Monk.) Often the "assassin" is a "hired bravo", but sometimes a jealous lover will take matters into his own hands. Here, Vivaldi suspects that Ellena has another lover, that the warning is inspired by jealousy, and that he is consequently in danger from "the poniard of jealousy".

17. The Marchese is not royal, but a very high-ranking nobleman who is therefore invited to social functions at which the king is present. As I mentioned up above, the King of Naples at this time was Charles, Duke of Parma, a Spaniard.

18. He is displeased with him for that, but there is also another reason we will learn about presently.

19. And this is important in terms of the status of the English novel at the time. Critics of the novel always said that they encouraged "immorality" but what they really did was make a case for romantic marriage at a time when marriage was still very much a commercial transaction, and encourage girls to think they had a right to a say in who they married. Because Radcliffe's novel is set in Naples, she can openly criticise marriages made because of birth and money instead of love - "Why this unreasonable pride of birth!" she has Ellena say - and leave it to her readers to apply the lesson to England.

20. I don't believe anything 100% which I read in these novels. :)

A very wise policy! :)

21. Dum, dum, dummmm....

You know, if I wanted to be mean I'd make you count mentions of trees instead of mentions of melancholy: there are so many of them it becomes amazingly distracting. :)

>37 lyzard:

15. Contrary to popular belief, not every heroine of every romantic novel screams on every occasion!

LOL!

16. A poniard (also spelled "poignard")

I didn't recognize that word from its new spelling, but, either way, I didn't really get the intention of that phrase.

>38 lyzard:

I've already taken an interest in the trees because I'm really a Nature Girl - even more than a Gothic Girl. It did strike me that pines were mentioned a lot in the few pages I've already read.

I've also dipped into two books by different Japanese authors over the past two weeks in which zelkova (a Japanese tree) was mentioned a lot - which, of course, has nothing to do with our own novel here - except for the continued mention of trees! :)

>39 SqueakyChu: I guess the thing about that phrase is that it sounds like a metaphor but isn't - he does mean he might be stabbed by a jealous rival.

>40 SqueakyChu: When I began to look for something I could use for your challenge, I'm sure there was a tree mentioned on every page I checked. I stopped when I came to the melancholy cedars, but I'm sure I could have gone through the whole book that way.

>41 lyzard:

I'm sure there was a tree mentioned on every page I checked.

LOL! Maybe Radcliffe was a Nature Girl as well.

Volume I, Chapter I, Part III
...in which two men attempt to serenade Ellena Rosalba

22. How common was it for men to serenade women?

23. Please define: "...these adventurous friends came to the orangery"

Does this word have anything to do with oranges?

24. "...the Corso tumultuous with carriages and blazing with torches"

What is Corso?

25. What instrument(s) would the two men have been playing?

Notes:

Trees: pine, oak

This story starts out very spooky. I like it! :)

Ends on page 19 with "...where they separated for the remainder of the night"

I just started reading it tonight and have read chapter 1. What a treat!

Madeline, I don't know if I started that custom, but I do like to number all my questions when I'm the tutee in case anyone wants to refer back to any one in particular.

I didn't realise Vesuvius had erupted quite so often. Those crazy Italians setting up homes around that giant fire-breathing monster!

>44 Smiler69:

Hooray! I'm glad you decided to join us, Ilana.

Thanks! Glad to be here! :-)

>43 SqueakyChu:

Volume I, Chapter I, Part III

22. I'm not sure it was ever as common as romantic books and films make it seem. :)

The serenade was originally a piece of music written in someone's honour, usually structured in phases of different tempos. It later acquired a second meaning, that of a song sung as a declaration of passion. The classic scenario of the lover serenading a lady on a balcony (this is the English meaning of "serenade", which has different meanings in other languages) emerged around the 14th century. The custom was particularly associated with Spain (and later Mexico) and Italy.

23. An orangery was like a greenhouse, only with more solid building and less glass. It was used to house plants during winter, in the first instance citrus trees, hence the name.

24. A corso is a promenade; in Naples it was a wide sweep near the bay where fashionable people drove their carriages in the evening.

25. Traditionally a serenade was written for stringed instruments (although with other instruments accompanying), so probably a guitar or a lute.

This story starts out very spooky. I like it! :)

Good! :)

>44 Smiler69: Hi, Ilana! Very glad you decided to read along. :)

And do please (and anyone else) feel free to add questions or comments.

Volume I, Chapter II, Part I
...in which the Marchese disapproves of Vincentio's affection for Ellena Rosalba

26. Isn't it (once again) presumptuous for Vincentio to be playing Ellena Rosalba's lute without permission?

27. Please define: "the conclusion of this exordium"

28. "...to allow her a small annuity"

I'm assuming this was a bribe both to Ellena Rosalba and to Vincentio?

Notes:

It seems that Signora Bianchi cannot make up her mind!

Trees: orange-tree

Faintings: Ellena Rosalba already fainted...and it's only page 24 and only the second chapter of the book!

Tears: "...tears of tenderness mingled with those of indignation"

Ends on page 26 with "...tears of tenderness mingled with those of indignation"

Volume I, Chapter II, Part I

26. Well, he's not really playing it - more admiring it because it's hers, as he does her drawings.

27. An exordium is the introductory part of a lecture or an oration. Vivaldi knows his father has only just got going. :)

28. Okay - it's very important to understand exactly what is going on here (and in the next section you will read).

The fact that Ellena is not of the nobility is enough to make Vivaldi's parents disapprove of her, but in addition to that, clearly someone has slandered Ellena to the Marchese. "Favourite", in such a context, is a euphemism for a mistress (as "unhappy young woman", below, is a euphemism for a fallen woman). The implication is that Ellena is a wicked woman, that she has seduced Vivaldi, and that she is now plotting to become his wife. On this basis the Marchese assumes it will be possible to buy her off with "an annuity".

All of which is about the worst insult that could be offered to a lady.

Ellena never finds out that the Marchese has spoken of her like this (just as well, too), but Vivaldi remains painfully conscious of it - there are oblique references to "the insult" as various points in the text. And in fact it backfires for the Marchese, because now in addition to wanting to marry Ellena, Vivaldi feels he must, if she's being gossiped about, to restore her reputation.

___________________

Signor Bianchi is in a bind. Her pride and her sense of honour prompt her to dismiss Vivaldi, since she can't bear the thought of Ellena being viewed as an intruder and a social-climber, and going where she's not wanted; but on the other hand her health is bad, and she knows that if she were to die, Ellena would be left all alone in the world and completely unprotected. So she's torn about which is the lesser of the two evils.

(This is another plot point that echoes The Monk: Anthonia's mother had the same sorts of qualms about Lorenzo's courtship of Antonia.)

__________________

Ellena doesn't faint nearly as much as some Gothic heroines! She has plenty to faint about, too. :)

28. What gives the Marchese the impression that Ellena Rosalba is a "fallen woman"? Has he heard that from someone? In this context, the "annuity" he offers seems to make sense.

28. Yes - someone has slandered her to the Marchese; the question of who is not resolved for quite some time... :)

28. someone has slandered her to the Marchese

I think it's that "monk" person. LOL!

Wait and see... :)

Volume I, Chapter II, Part II
...in which we meet Father Schedoni

29. How can Vincentio be so certain of Ellena Rosalba's "innocence"?

30. "He believed that this man was at once the spy of his steps, and the defamer of his love, till the inconsistency of such conduct with the seeming friendliness of his admonitions, struck Vivaldi and compelled him to believe the contrary."

I don't understand this sentence. Could you please explain it to me?

31. Please define: "...the opinions of the latter were found less ductile than had been expected."

32. I find it suspicious that Father Schedoni "wished to throw an impenetrable veil over his origin." He's guilty of something!

33. Please define: "...he could follow it (truth) through all of the labyrinths of disquisition."

34. Please define: "...his vitiated mind"

35. I don't understand what that one paragraph about Father Schedoni and "truth" was trying to say. Please explain.

36. "This monk, this Schedoni, was the secret adviser of the Marchesa di Vivaldi."

This doesn't sound good to me. Anyway, if Vincentio knew of this, then how "secret" was this relationship really?

Ends on page 31 with "...had crossed his mind.".

Volume I, Chapter II, Part II

29. Well, the short answer would be, because she's the heroine of a romantic novel! In the context of the novels of "sensibility", it was assumed that a person's character showed in their face.

More reasonably, because of her conduct since they met - a wicked woman would be leading him on, not avoiding him.

30. The warnings he receives from the cowled figure seem to be intended to preserve him from harm (one way or the other), but to Vivaldi, slandering Ellena is the worst harm anyone could do him, so that seems inconsistent. Therefore he's not sure that the apparent monk and the slanderer of Ellena are the same person.

31. Ductile means easily moulded. Here, Signora Bianchi is trying to push Ellena into accepting Vivaldi, but even though Ellena cares for him, her own pride and sense of honour won't permit her to do anything secretly ("clandestinely"). She is therefore less "ductile" than her aunt was expecting.

32. You're so suspicious! :)

33. A disquisition is a formal or in-depth inquiry. A "labyrinth of disquisition" suggests a pursuit of truth that is long and tortuous.

34. Vitiated means corrupted or debased.

35. What that paragraph is saying is that Schedoni himself is so given to plotting and scheming and secretiveness, that he has lost the ability to recognise the truth, or to understand an honest or straightforward person. He also assumes that other people think and act as he does, so he is always on the lookout for a secret (and dishonourable) motive in their behaviour.

It's not spelled out here - and Schedoni is a Dominican, not a Jesuit - but the kind of negative qualities that Radcliffe gives to Schedoni were very much associated with the Jesuit denomination of the Catholic church, who had a reputation for hair-splitting disputation and being able to talk rings around people. If you read a lot of 18th and 19th century English novels, you quite often find the term "jesuitical" being used to describe someone who uses sophistical arguments or relies upon confusing people to make their point - often with an intent to deceive.

36. The relationship isn't secret - that he is her advisor as well as her confessor is.

This is another example of an English Protestant writer being disingenuous with her Catholic characters. "Good" Catholics, in English novels, are described as devout, and are seen attending mass (although it will often be called "services" instead of "mass"), but you rarely if ever see them going to confession, which was one of the major Protestant bugbears. All Catholics confessed; many high-ranking ones had a personal confessor; but if a character in a novel is seen to have a confessor, it usually means that character is one of the "bad" Catholics.

Presumably, if Matthew Lewis hadn't got there first, this novel would have been called The Monk:

Chapter 2

His figure was striking, but not so from grace; it was tall, and, though extremely thin, his limbs were large and uncouth, and as he stalked along, wrapt in the black garments of his order, there was something terrible in its air; something almost superhuman. His cowl, too, as it threw a shade over the livid paleness of his face, encreased its severe character, and gave an effect to his large melancholy eye, which approached to horror. His was not the melancholy of a sensible and wounded heart, but apparently that of a gloomy and ferocious disposition. There was something in his physiognomy extremely singular, and that can not easily be defined. It bore the traces of many passions, which seemed to have fixed the features they no longer animated. An habitual gloom and severity prevailed over the deep lines of his countenance; and his eyes were so piercing that they seemed to penetrate, at a single glance into the hearts of men, and to read their most secret thoughts; few persons could support their scrutiny, or even endure to meet them twice. Yet, notwithstanding all this gloom and austerity, some rare occasions of interest had called forth a character upon his countenance entirely different; and he could adapt himself to the tempers and passions of persons, whom he wished to conciliate, with astonishing facility, and generally with complete triumph.

P.S. There's a couple of "melancholy-s" in there...

This is from today's Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/interactive/2014/may/09/reading-gothic-novel-pi...

Do you agree, Liz?

I found this on another thread. Thank you, scarper!

How to tell you're reading a gothic novel

You beat me to this, CDVicarage! :)

35. who had a reputation for hair-splitting disputation and being able to talk rings around people.

Sadly, I still know people like that.

if Matthew Lewis hadn't got there first, this novel would have been called The Monk

Haha!

There's a couple of "melancholy-s" in there...

Oops!

"his large melancholy eye"
"His was not the melancholy of a sensible and wounded heart"

Total Melancholy Count = 3

>58 CDVicarage: >59 SqueakyChu: What a fun article! Love the graphics. And I think my favourite section is "People talk funny".

Liz, my only question so far (since I can also count on Madeline to cover just about everything), is, why is Signora Bianchi referred to as such and also simply as Bianchi? She seems to vary from being respectable to... not so much.

>58 CDVicarage: Ha! I did my own version of that when Madeline and I were starting Clermont! Only I didn't have fancy graphics. On the other hand, I didn't give away so many plot details! :)

>62 Smiler69: It's simply an indication that the family name was all-important (unless there was a title, which was even more important). It's a rule usually applied more to men, but it is transferred to Bianchi as the head of her own family.

Volume I, Chapter III
...in which Signora Bianchi dies

37. What are vine-dressers?

38. "she died before her confessor could administer."

How does this affect Signora Bianchi's death?

39. "She did not seem to die naturally."

I've learned to question statements made by housemaids!

--------------------

Melancholy Count = 4
"for this melancholy suggestion"

Trees:
poplars
olive grove

Tears:
"Ellena, extremely shocked...burst into tears."
"Ellena, still weeping..."
"My poor young mistress...cried as if her heart would break."
"Beatrice ceased to speak, and wept.."

Ends on page 40 with "His intention to search for the monk was thus again interrupted."

Did you want to carry on your sequential numbering, or did you deliberately start over at the beginning of a new chapter?

Volume I, Chapter III

1. (37.) Someone who looks after the vines in a vineyard.

2. (38.) The last rites are ideally a three-step process that allows the dying person time to confess, to receive absolution for their sins, and to receive the sacrament, and so to pass over in a state of grace. If this step is omitted or there isn't time (which is the case with Signora Bianchi), the person dies in a state of unabsolved sin, which affects how long they must spend in purgatory before being admitted to heaven.

3. (39.) You're just a naturally suspicious person! :)

__________________________________________

Ellena has just lost the woman who raised her like a mother, so I don't think we'll hold her tears against her this time!

Oops! I corrected the numbers.

38. which affects how long they must spend in purgatory before being admitted to heaven.

Does this affect the story we're reading? Does the Signora's spirit then haunt our characters?

39. You're just a naturally suspicious person!

You made me that way! :)

----------------------------

Tears:

Ellena has just lost the woman who raised her like a mother, so I don't think we'll hold her tears against her this time!

Ellena is forgiven...just this one time, though.

38. No - rather, since this is important Catholic ritual, it's indicative of how unexpectedly Signora Bianchi has died, her poor health notwithstanding.

You made me that way! :)

All care taken, no responsibility accepted!

just this one time, though

You're a hard woman! :D

Volume I, Chapter IV
...in which Vivaldi evaluates Schedoni

40. What is an evil genius?

41. I don't exactly understand what transpired in the conversation between Vivaldi and Schedoni other than Vivaldi recognizing that Schedoni was evil.

42. Why would a man within a religious order see "only evil in human nature"?

43. I don't understand the Marchesa's being closer to her confessor than to her son? Why is her confessor her friend? Don't confessors stand behind curtains so that they're not seen during confession?

------------------

Trees:
pine
oak

Ends on page 46 with "no longer be confined to remonstrances".

Volume I, Chapter IV

40. In some mythologies an evil genius is like an anti-conscience, the little devil on your shoulder who encourages you to do wrong. Alternatively, one of the original meanings of "genius" was someone with great influence over someone else, so that an "evil genius" is someone who either influences that person to do evil, or who themselves does evil that affects that person.

41. Vivaldi suspects that Schedoni is the cowled figure that has been interfering in his relationship with Ellena and tries to make him give himself away. However, Schedoni is so skilled at deception and evasion that he not only manages to convince Vivaldi that his suspicions were wrong, but make him feel guilty for suspecting in the first place - not hard, because Vivaldi is honest and good-natured. The fact that he can manipulative Vivaldi like this makes Schedoni develop a contemptuous attitude towards him.

42. It was taken to granted by Protestants that a Catholic convent or a monastery was the last place you'd find a genuinely religious person. :)

It is common at this time in English novels to find Catholic characters either being forced to take religious orders (usually a woman), and the convent treated like a prison, or a criminal (usually a man) treating a monastery as somewhere to hide out. It was believed that monastic life encouraged the worst aspects of people's character, making them selfish, deceitful and, in Schedoni's case, only able to see evil in others. (We saw this line of argument more than once in The Monk.)

43. When confession is under way, yes. The relationship between the Marchesa and Schedoni is beyond that of confessor and confessee (if that's a word). He is ambitious, and is "playing" the Marchesa because she has enough influence to get him the appointments he wants. He is really her "evil genius" because he is encouraging everything that is worst in her nature, and acting as her tool in her schemes. The Marchesa is more interested in her son as the representative of his parents' families and the opportunity for a brilliant alliance, than as her son.

41. Schedoni is so skilled at deception and evasion that he not only manages to convince Vivaldi that his suspicions were wrong,

But didn't Vivaldi think that the cowled figure was a different height and had a different voice? I guess Schedoni could have hunched down or walked tall (I can't remember offhand which of the two was shorter/taller) and muffled/disguised his voice.

42. It was taken to granted by Protestants that a Catholic convent or a monastery was the last place you'd find a genuinely religious person.

!!!

43.

she has enough influence to get him the appointments he wants.

What sort of "appointments" might be made available to Schedoni with the Marchesa's influence?

It occurs to me that English (Protestant) writers probably enjoyed the possibility of criticizing the Catholic religion unreservedly in lieu of condemning their own religion. It seems to be a truism that there are individuals to be found in every society who proclaim their religious beliefs loudly and are outwardly extremely devout, but are complete hypocrites and found lacking in any sort of compassion for the rest of humanity, if not outright criminals. How many scandals have there been with prominent members of clergy engaging in outrageous behaviour?

That being said, my mother was raised by Catholic nuns and every mention of these women includes anecdotes which make them out to be malicious, mean and petty, if not outright sadistic. I think it was all too often the case that women took on the veil and entered convents either because of lack of other options or because they were actively forced to do so, which quite understandably wouldn't have made for very happy nuns. As for the idea of a convent being like a prison, this isn't necessarily so far from the truth. My mum has often told me about her own mother, raised in a convent like all proper women of her generation here in Quebec, where even looking out the window was considered a sin which must be reported to a confessor.

where even looking out the window was considered a
sin which must be reported to a confessor.

Wow! This only reinforces my belief that such strictness and anger probably happens across all religions. To me, it's a sad state when religious dogma takes away freedom of thought and action.

>70 SqueakyChu:

40. He did at first - he thought the voice was different - but then he thought Schedoni showed signs of conscious guilt, until the monk talked him out of that thought again.

In short, he doesn't know. And nor do we. :)

43. Important church appointments. We hear a bit more about that later.

>71 Smiler69:

No, I don't think so at this time, Ilana. There had been growing anti-Catholic feeling in England for over a century, spiking after the Jacobite Rebellion of 1745; the Protestant writers of this time would have been brought up in that atmosphere. Also, England and France were at war from 1793 onwards; and even though the French Revolution saw the dismantling of institutionalised religion, English anti-Catholicism still got rather mixed up with all that.

It reaches a point where it's a great surprise if an English writer of this period says anything fair, let alone nice, about Catholics. Radcliffe is actually more even-handed than most (possibly because she was from a Dissenting, rather than Anglican, background), since she does allow that there can be nice, genuinely religious Catholics - even in convents and monasteries - but on the other hand she doesn't hesitate to make members of religious orders nasty and even criminal.

Apart from most French girls being educated in convents, convents were a way of respectably disposing of excess females, so it's likely there were many very disgruntled and dissatisfied nuns who had had this vocation thrust upon them.

Volume I, Chapter V
...in which a physician examines Signora Bianchi

44. How long was a dead body kept at home before burial?

45. "...unobserved, as he believed..."

So he was seen by someone?

___________________

Melancholy Count: total 5
"gazed with melancholy surprise"

Ends on page 49 with ""by a confidential servant"

Volume I, Chapter V

44. Not long - particularly not in a warm climate! Probably no longer than a day or two.

46. We don't know. :)

Love this quote:

Chapter 4

    "You are too good, father," said the Marchesa; her resentment encreasing towards Vivaldi in proportion as Schedoni displayed his artificial candour and meekness.
    "It is true," continued the confessor, "that I perceive all the inconveniences to which my attachment, I should say my duty to your family exposes me; but I willingly submit to these, while it is yet possible that my advice may be a means of preserving the honour of your house unsullied, and of saving this inconsiderate young man from future misery and unavailing repentance."
    During the warmth of this sympathy in resentment, the Marchesa and Schedoni mutually, and sincerely, lost their remembrance of the unworthy motives, by which each knew the other to be influenced, as well as that disgust which those who act together to the same bad end, can seldom escape from feeling towards their associates. The Marchesa, while she commended the fidelity of Schedoni, forgot his views and her promises as to a rich benefice; while the confessor imputed her anxiety for the splendour of her son's condition to a real interest in his welfare, not a care of her own dignity...

>76 lyzard:

It is interesting how we read what we want into others and how we perceive others. My husband always stops me from doing this with out three grown children. Oh, well. :)

Volume I, Chapter VI, Part I
...in which Ellena is kidnapped

46. Ellena was going to the convent as a boarder?! This, had it happened, would have caused Vivaldi more consternation.

47. What were the "secret murmurs" of Vivladi's heart?

48. Why did Ellena plan to go to the convent? Why didn't she choose to stay at villa Altieri with her servant Beatrice?

-------------------------

Melancholy Count: - 6
"There was something melancholy..."

Tears:
"The tears she shed while she listened..." (warranted tears)
"They parted with many tears..."

Fainting:
"All consciousness had now forsaken her..."

Trees:
pinaster
oak
holly
olive
juniper
pomegranate
oleander (more like a bush...but could be a smallish tree)

Ends on page 54 with "juniper, pomegranate, and oleander"

Volume I, Chapter VI, Part I

46. & 48. It was unacceptable for a young woman to live alone without a chaperone; living with a servant was not sufficient.

As a boarder at a convent, she is there voluntarily and can leave whenever she wants. It allows her to withdraw from the world, and to go through her period of mourning in private, and under respectable conditions.

47. He goes along with Ellena's plan to go into the convent, since he recognises its propriety, but he's not happy about it. He wants to marry her right away, partly because he's in love with her, but partly because he fears (and rightly!) that until they are married, something can always happen to separate them. However, he respects Ellena's grief and her decision. (Also her feeling that marrying immediately after the death of her de facto parent would be wrong. Traditionally marriages were not supposed to take place during a mourning period, which for a parent could be as long as a year.)

ETA: I found another melancholy, just before the one you listed: Ellena, meanwhile, endeavouring to dissipate melancholy recollections by employment...

Another important quote:

This one is an example of what I was saying up above about Radcliffe shifting her tactics, from suggesting that something supernatural is happening, to showing how people want to believe that something supernatural is happening. By giving this quality to her hero she strengthens her point.

Chapter 6

...his imagination, thus elevated by wonder and painful curiosity, was prepared for something above the reach of common conjecture, and beyond the accomplishment of human agency. His understanding was sufficiently clear and strong to teach him to detect many errors of opinion, that prevailed around him, as well as to despise the common superstitions of his country, and, in the usual state of his mind, he probably would not have paused for a moment on the subject before him; but his passions were now interested and his fancy awakened, and, though he was unconscious of this propensity, he would, perhaps, have been somewhat disappointed to have descended suddenly from the region of fearful sublimity, to which he had soared -- the world of terrible shadows -- to the earth, on which he daily walked, and to an explanation simply natural.

>80 lyzard:

Oh, my! So many words to express this idea!!

Was the fact that Radcliffe seems more grounded in reasons for what appear to be supernatural happenings more acceptable to her reading public than if she had made her characters the whim of actual supernatural happenings?

I don't know about other centuries, but I like books about the supernatural and then letting the reading public decide if they actually happened or not. In fact, I prefer books that have happenings that are more on "the edge", such as in contemporary magical realism. where the reader is, at times, not sure if what has happened is real or not.

>79 lyzard:

(Corrected) Melancholy Count - 7
" Ellena, meanwhile, endeavouring to dissipate melancholy recollections by employment..."

>81 SqueakyChu: Perhaps less the public than the critics. There was quite a lot of hostility towards female authors at this time, and given that writing in the first place was often disapproved of, women had to be particularly careful what they put in their books. Radcliffe actually received quite a lot of critical acclaim, but some people did take her to task for the supposedly supernatural content of The Mysteries Of Udolpho. (And conversely, she was also criticised for explaining things away; you can't win.)

Belief or interest in the supernatural was regarded as, not un-religious, but un-Protestant; it was another one of those "Catholic things". At this time, only the Germanic peoples had an unashamed supernatural literature. We've seen that Matthew Lewis was very heavily influenced by German horror stories when writing The Monk, but although the book was influential in the long-term, the English were slow in developing their own fantasy literature.

Frankenstein was more or less the start of science fiction; Mary Shelley also wrote the future dystopian novel, The Last Man. During the 19th century ghost stories became increasingly popular in England, while horror (both supernatural and what we might call "body horror") first appeared in the Penny Dreadfuls, the cheap fiction intended for the lower classes, where you find things like Varney The Vampire and A String Of Pearls (the first version of the Sweeney Todd story). Despite this being widely criticised and disapproved the genre continued to develop, so by the end of the century we have "respectable" horror novels like Dr Jekyll And Mr Hyde and Dracula.

And once WWI happened, all bets were off; after such a real-life horror getting upset over a story seemed silly and pointless.

>83 lyzard:

Hmmm? It might be fun to explore some of these novels at a later date. I hated Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, but I loved reading Dracula. I'm really enjoying our current read so far, and I'm pretty sure that I'll end up having liked it a lot when I'm done.

The funny thing about Dracula is that I was sure I'd never read a "vampire" novel. I guess that was in my same vein of thinking I'd never read a novel by Jane Austen. Sometimes a great novel or even a genre-bending novel (one that cuts into a different genre subtly) gets me into reading what I least expect myself to be reading!

Volume I, Chapter VI, Part II
...in which Ellena arrives at a distant monastery

49. "..she understood that her journey was to conclude there"

Oh, no! She ends up at another monastery...and is now a virtual prisoner there! I suspect "the monk", or why else was she taken to a monastery?

50. What is a "strawberry tree"?

51. Where is she now? Is Ellena still in Italy? If so, in what part of Italy might she be based on the description of the awesome terrain?

----------------------------

Tears:
"She melted into tears..."
"she could not remain unaffected by recollections...without bitter tears"
"...I cannot even think of without tears."

Trees:
almond
fig
myrtle
acacia mimosa
"strawberry tree"
palm
cypress
cedar

Melancholy Count - 12
"was not of a character to promote melancholy"
"that luxurious and solemn kind of melancholy"
"avenues of melancholy cypress"
"tending to inspire melancholy awe"
"she surveyed her melancholy habitation"

Ends on page 61 with"...the most powerful affectation of her heart."

HA!! Remember at the outset when I told you that in this book, "something happens", and then the melancholy count shoots up??

Well, now you know what the "something" is. :D

Volume I, Chapter VI, Part II

49. Hard to argue with your logic. :D

50. It's a Mediterranean shrub with red berries that were thought to resemble strawberries (visually, anyway - apparently they don't taste very nice, though they are edible).

51. We don't know exactly where she is at the moment, though the description of the mountains suggests that she's in the Italian Alps. We find out later when Vivaldi goes after her.

Here are some pictures of the kind of terrain that Ellena is travelling through:

    

>88 lyzard: Holy wow! is that ever gorgeous!

>88 lyzard: Stunning!

I'm skipping tonight. I'm resume tomorrow.

Killjoy. :)

Volume I, Chapter VII, Part I
...in which Vivaldi and Paolo are imprisoned

52. "Paolo was incredulous to superstition of any kind..."

Was this line included to male Paolo seem like a "worthy" character?

53. What did the monk mean when he exclaimed, "Look to your steps!"

54. The place...was forsaken and quiet."

There must be a secret passageway somewhere here as the monk seems to disappear ever so effectively!

55. In the dim light, how could Paolo know that the stains on the passageway walls were blood?

56. "...that seems to lead to vaults below."

Were the "vaults" actually tombs?

57. "...or any superhuman either my Signor..."

So now Paolo "lowers himself" to believe in ghosts?

58. "I would fain evaporate through that door myself."

Haha!

-------------------

Trees:
pine


pinus cembra

Ends on page 66 with "of the ancient fort"

Volume I, Chapter VII, Part I

52. More likely, to imply that if Paolo starts thinking there might be supernatural things going on, there's good reason to think so! :)

53. "Look to your steps" can have two meanings, either literally "watch where you're going", or as a warning, "look out for yourself". In this case the latter is almost certainly intended - a warning that what happened to Ellena can happen to Vivaldi too.

54. Isn't there always a secret passageway everywhere??

55. Paolo sees those marks by torchlight as they are passing.

56. These are the ruins of a fort, so more likely prison cells.

57. See #52. When someone who doesn't believe starts believing... :)

54. Isn't there always a secret passageway everywhere??

Yes!

It must have been fun to be an architect back then! ("...and in the living-room, we have oak panelling concealing three priest's holes, a secret passageway opening up out of the back of the fireplace, plus a trapdoor under the coffee-table...")

If you're going to start adding appropriate tree pictures, this will be a BIG thread. :)

>85 SqueakyChu:

Here's a "strawberry tree"! :)


arbutus unedo

>96 lyzard: LOL!

>97 lyzard: I'll only add one tree per chapter (or part of a chapter). It'll give our thread more local color. I won't show a tree unless the chapter (or part of a chapter) mentions a tree. Anyway, you were the one who got me to focus on trees. :)

Volume I, Chapter VII, Part II
...in which Vivaldi and Paolo discover bloody garments

58. (1) What us a winding-sheet?

59. (2) "Thou art an excellent comforter."

Haha!

Ends with "...willing to be silent."

Volume I, Chapter VII, Part II

1. A shroud; something to wrap a dead body in.

2. You should always be very careful about who you get thrown into a dungeon with! :)

I have to skip tonight. I've come back from the book festival today too tired read anything now. I'll continue tomorrow.

Of course! I hope you had a good time. :)

Volume I, Chapter VIII, Part I
...in which Ellena declines both of two choices

60. What is a conductress?

61. Was there a particular purpose to Ellena being allowed to attend vespers?

--------------------------------

Tears
"...could scarcely restrain her tears"
"Tears interrupted her..."
"...her eyes, covered with tears, said more"
"was now melted into tears"
"The gentle tears were refreshing to her long-oppressed spirits."

Melancholy Count - 16
"...with all its melancholy accompaniments"
"...to be modulated by the melancholy of an heart"
"...touched with a melancholy kind of resignation"
"There is a gentle melancholy in her eye."

Ends on page 78 with"...nothing to support it."

Ah, yes - our flood of melancholy-s is now at full tide! :)

Volume I, Chapter VIII, Part I

60. A conductor (that is, someone who shows you the way) who happens to be female.

61. Well, supposedly she's at the convent to be brought to an acknowledgement of her "sins", so allowing her to attend services might be thought to put her in a more humble frame of mind. Alternatively, perhaps they're trying to show her that being a nun isn't so bad. (Good luck with that, in a novel like this!)

60. "show you the way".

Was that meant to mean finding the way to the vespers service or finding the way to a religious life?

I like that Ellena didn't seem to hesitate to reject the two bad choices offered to her. I wonder who the "intended man" offered her by the church was? Is his identity later revealed?

60. It could be either, but in context it simply means the person showing her around the unfamiliar convent.

You're not expecting any answer other than "wait and see", are you? :)

You're not expecting any answer other than "wait and see", are you?

I don't know why Madeline persists in asking questions regarding plot development. I guess she really likes your standard reply Liz!

Is that it Madeline?

I'm quite ahead, just enough (chapter 15 or 16 I think) that I don't feel I can ask any questions as can never be sure my questions won't reveal spoilers, so just keep going at my own pace and trust that Madeline will cover whatever questions I might have along the way.

>108 Smiler69:

Is that it Madeline?

Yep! LOL!!

Volume I, Chapter VIII, Part II
...in which Olivia gives Ellena some advice

62. "Your features have some resemblance to those of a friend I once had."

Aha! Ellena is not alone in the world!

63. "...may be fatal"

What?! The nuns would actually consider killing Elena?!!

----------------

Trees:
pine
chestnut
olive
almond
cypress
larch


Larch - Photo: courtesy of Wikimedia Commons

Melancholy count - 19
"The nun replied with a melancholy smile."
"...promoted the tender melancholy"
"She walked beneath the melancholy cypresses."

Tears:
"Ellena did not repress the grateful tears..."
"...her eyes filled with tears"

Ends on page 85 with "Olivia had left the room."

(Sorry! Meetings all day at work, dog-tired at night.)

>108 Smiler69: If you have any urgent questions, Ilana, you could post them under a spoiler warning. Otherwise, if you remember them as we go, please do add them when Madeline is up to the appropriate point.

>109 SqueakyChu: Just as well!

Volume I, Chapter VIII, Part II

62. You know what I'm going to say to that. :)

63. Another thing commonly found in Gothic novels is the convent that is even worse than just a prison...

62. You know what I'm going to say to that.

Haha!

Volume I, Chapter IX, Part I
...in which the Marchese threatens to disown Vivaldi

64. Why were there instruments of torture in Father Schedoni's cell? What might these instruments of torture have been?

--------------------

Melancholy Count - 20
"engaged by his own melancholy thoughts"

Ends with "where you have concealed her".

Volume I, Chapter IX, Part I

64. Since we later hear of Schedoni that "his voluntary suifferings are sufficient for a saint", it is likely that these are instruments of self-torture. Some denominations of monks were known for self-punishment as a means of mortifying the flesh and expiating sin, either on their own behalf or on behalf of a group of penitents. The punishment might be fasting, wearing a hair-shirt, lying on a cold stone floor for hours, or self-flagellation. Since we hear of "instruments", it is likely that Schedoni has whips in his room.

It is very important that you understand what is going on in this scene between Vivaldi and Schedoni. When Vivaldi barges in he interrupts an act of penance being performed by Schedoni, which is a very serious transgression. He then goes on to make it worse by making loud, public accusations against Schedoni - so he both sins against the church and makes a deadly enemy out of the monk - particularly when he suggests that Schedoni was somehow involved in the events around the confessional of the Black Pentitents, as per the story that Paolo was telling.

64. What is a hair-shirt?

>115 lyzard: When Vivaldi barges in he interrupts an act of penance being performed by Schedoni

I was a bit confused as to how Vivaldi was supposed to know this. Schedoni seemed to just be standing there and ignoring him. Was the act of penance to keep silent? To stand for a long time?

>116 SqueakyChu:

64. An article of clothing worn next to the skin that was designed to be irritating or even painful - made out of rough material, or with things embedded in it that would scratch or cut. Again, wearing such a garment was a sign of repentance and a way of mortifying the flesh.

>117 souloftherose:

Hi, Heather - welcome back!

Schedoni is standing silently in an obscure part of the cloister and doesn't speak or move as Vivaldi approaches and begins abusing him. Staying motionless and refraining from speech was a common act of penance, and if Vivaldi weren't so distracted (and weren't so sure that Schedoni is a hypocrite), he would have recognised what he is doing.

Volume I, Chapter IX, Part II
...in which Vivaldi finds men who've seen the carriage in which Ellena was taken away

65. What does "Avaunt!" mean?

Melancholy Count - 21
"...all consciousness was lost in melancholy reverie..."

Ends on page 94 with "might overtake him on his journey."

Volume I, Chapter IX, Part II

65. Go away, leave at once - but in a very serious, how-dare-you-intrude-here? sense.

Volume I, Chapter X
...in which Schedoni complains to the Marchesa

66. Re Schedoni: "exaggerates some offensive circumstances of it, invented others..."

Let's just say he was telling lies. And he is the confessor?!

67. Re Paolo: "...he had more reasons than one to regret his chestnut mattress"

...which were...?

Tree:
chestnut

Melancholy Count - 22
"full chorus of melancholy music..."

Ends on page 100 with"...he set forward on his enquiry"

Volume I, Chapter X

66. Well, it's not just that he's lying, it's the skilful (and various) ways that he is lying. :)

Another common bit of anti-Catholicism was the assertion that Catholics sinned all the time, because then they could just go and have their sins absolved, like it didn't matter.

67. At the moment, mostly that due to first preference for accommodation being given to the pilgrims, he's spending the night in a barn lying in some straw. Apart from being dragged away from his beloved Naples and its attendant creature comforts and into the wilds of the Appennines...

Speaking of which...

Chapter 10

He had now passed over some of the wildest tracts of the Apennines...

  

Another couple of pictures to show you where we are. On the left, you can see Naples on the west coast of Italy, down near the "boot", and that the Apennines run almost the length of the country from north to south. On the right is a topographical map of Naples, showing its mountainous surrounds.

    

How far was Ellena taken from Naples?

The landscape is amazing!

Very beautiful landscape indeed. I've read up to chapter XXI at this point, and did have some questions, but I'll just wait till Madeline asks them for me. :-)

>125 SqueakyChu: We're still figuring that out. We're not being given clear directions, partly because Vivaldi doesn't really know where he is, and partly (probably) because Radcliffe doesn't want to be too definite about the whereabouts of her "prison" convent. We get a better idea from subsequent events.

>126 Smiler69: Sure? Ask if you need to!

Volume I Chapter XI Part I
...in which Vivaldi finds Ellena

68. ...with the mitre on her head"

What's that?

69. "...concealed them...as effectively as did the pendant lawn the features..."

What's that?

70. "Is it morality to obey where the command is criminal?"

Good line.

----------------------------

Melancholy Count - 23
"...which soothed yet promoted his melancholy mood"

Tears
"...raised her blue eyes, all bathed in tears"

Fainting
"...sunk into the arms of some persons round her"

Tree
palm

Ends on page 106 with "...of the Marchesa's prejudice and pride."

Volume I Chapter X Part I

68. A mitre is more generally understood as the tall, pointy hat worn by bishops during formal ceremonies, but in some European denominations an abbess of a convent also wore a mitre of sorts, a stiff white head-covering that rose to a point above her wimple (the garment that nuns wore around their faces).

69. Pendant means hanging down; lawn is a sheer variety of linen. In other words, her face is concealed by a veil.

>127 lyzard: Thanks Liz, it's really fine. I don't like to post ahead of Madeline, and then also force you to answer the same question twice! Also, I didn't take note of the sections that weren't so clear to me, though I've started to do so now. In general though, I'm quite comfortable with the text and know just enough about Catholicism to make out what I need. Also, with the iPad (I'm reading this on the Kindle app) it's very easy to look up word definitions here and there, and even look up wikipedia or google within the app as needed.

I'm skipping tonight as I just got in from the movies. I'll read some more tomorrow.

Volume I Chapter XI Part II
...in which Olivia assists Ellena with a plan

71. "...the brother had consented to assist his views"

Which brother was that?

72. "...in consideration of an ample reward"

Aha! But...an ample reward of what? Money?

73. "...gave a collation to Padre-abate"

What is that?

-----------------------------------

Tears
Olivia:
"...her eyes were often filled with tears"
Ellena:
"She threw herself on the bosom of the nun, and wept..."
"Ellena's tears flowed fast...
"...said the weeping Ellena"

Melancholy Count - 24
"diffused over her spirits a pleasing melancholy"

Ends on page 112 with "...necessary for Vivaldi"

---------------------

End of Volume I

Volume I Chapter XI Part II

71. The same person who told Vivaldi about Ellena sitting up in the tower. This is a "lay-brother", by the way, which was an unordained member of a monastery, often from the uneducated classes, who did manual labour and other tasks.

72. Oh, yes. :)

We're making an interesting list of "things Protestants thought about Catholics"; we can add to it "that you could always find someone in a covent or monastery open to bribery". This was another measure of supposed Catholic hypocrisy, since part of entering a convent / monastery was renouncing earthly things.

73. A collation is a light meal, often served as a buffet. In this case it is a celebratory meal at which the Abbot of the monastery is to be the special guest.

Volume I Chapter XI Part II

74. Were there really such deaths by slow starvation in monasteries as described in this chapter?

74. Well...probably not, though I guess we don't know for certain.

You might remember that we had a similar discussion with respect to The Monk. This was the very punishment that was meted out to Agnes when her pregnancy was discovered: they chained her up in a dungeon so she could slowly die there. She was rescued just in time but her baby died. And Lewis, of course, gave us all that in graphic detail.

The problem is that it is very hard sometimes to separate "historical fact" from "historical propaganda". Was there ever a convent that used that sort of punishment? Perhaps. Do you find frequent references to convents doing so in Protestant histories of the Catholic church? Absolutely. Without proper research it's very hard to know where these stories come from, or how much truth there was in them. All we do know is that it was a common trope of the Gothic novel.

Volume II, Chapter I, Part I
...in which Jeronimo still has not completed the escape of Vivialdi and Ellena

75. "...used for the purpose of conveying secretly to the shrine such articles as were judged necessary to excite the superstitious wonder of the devotees"

Articles such as what?

---------------------

Tears:
"Weeping on the bosom of the nun,..."
"as she dismissed her tears"
"Ellena's heart was full. She wept."

Trees:
cypress


Cupressus - Cypress - Photo by Wikimedia Commons

Ends on page 122 with "he proceeded to the shrine."

You finished Volume 1 and didn't make note of it!? :)

Well done! It's interesting to me that most of your questions are about unfamiliar terms or obscure historical points, rather than "What is going on here!?" It suggests that Radcliffe is a better writer than the others we've been studying.

Volume II, Chapter I, Part I

75. Again, this feeds into the Protestant view of Catholicism as a "superstition" for the credulous. Shrines were used to hold items like religious carvings or illuminated bibles, or items owned or just touched by the individual to whom the shrine is dedicated - or even the bones of that person - or perhaps items supposedly involved in miracles. "Exciting the superstitious wonder" implies that the relics at this particular shrine are fakes designed to fool people.

A cypress is a symbol of mourning, by the way, which is why you find them in cemeteries - and why they are so prevalent in this section of the plot, where there's lots and lots of crying. :)

>137 lyzard:

You finished Volume 1 and didn't make note of it!?

I did...at the end of message #132.

It's interesting to me that most of your questions are about unfamiliar terms or obscure historical points, rather than "What is going on here!?"

I have found it really easy to follow this story as compared with the other gothic novels we've read in the past. It's either that, or else I already sort of know the patterns of the story. I also find this book less confusing because it doesn't have (at least so far) the gazillions of extra characters to confuse me.

>137 lyzard: >140 SqueakyChu: I'm keeping up well and I think it's a much easier to follow book than some in the past.

Just a note to say I love the mention of the trees in this book because they remind me of the trees in Israel...especially the olive trees (in the fields behind my former apartment in Jerusalem) and the cypress trees (which often lined long roadways or edges of kibbutzim).

I love cypress trees. Well, ALL trees really, but cypresses I miss because you don't see any in Montreal, or very few anyway. I didn't realize they were considered mourning trees.

I've just got 4 chapters to go, and as it's a rainy, gloomy day, it just seems like perfect weather for this book, so I just might finish it...

eta: cyprus trees: I remember seeing so many of them on a trip to Lebanon in New Year 2000. It was rather memorable.

>140 SqueakyChu: I meant more along the lines of "Whoo! I finished Volume 1!" :)

>140 SqueakyChu: & >141 CDVicarage: Nice to know you're still with us, Kerry! That is true, this is a more focused work than many Gothic novels.

>142 SqueakyChu: I don't think I've ever read a book that had more individual tree types in it. Very interesting that it's reminding you of Israel, though of course it too is influenced by the Mediterranean climate.

>143 Smiler69: The cypress is a symbol of death because unlike most trees, if you cut them they don't grow back. In ancient practice, cypress branches were carried at funerals, and coffins were often made out of cypress wood (for the practical reason that the wood is resistant to insect activity, though it's yet another association with death). In classical mythology the cypress was supposed to grow in the Underworld.

In Twelfth Night we have the lines: Come away, come away, death, / And in sad cypress let me be laid. / Fly away, fly away, breath; / I am slain by a fair cruel maid...

...which is where Agatha Christie got the title of her novel.

Here endeth today's rambling lecture. :)

Sounds perfect, Ilana - I think you should just curl up and finish it!

Finally I ended up dusting all my plants as I listened to Room today (talk about making up tasks to listen to audiobooks!). I sat down with The Italian this evening, and realized I had mistakenly thought there were 30 chapters when there are in fact 33. So now I have 4 more chapters to go, which means I won't finish it tonight, but definitely before the end of the month.

I enjoy your 'rambling lectures'!

>144 lyzard:

Woohoo! I finished Volume I. Hip, Hip, Hooray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

*loud applause and fireworks*

>145 Smiler69: Sounds like a good evening, anyway!

>146 SqueakyChu: THAT'S better!!!! :D

Volume II, Chapter I, Part II
...in which Vivaldi and Ellena escape

76. What was that friar doing in such an isolated room?

77. Help me with definitions for these words, please:
"the lambent lustre of his eyes"
"said Paolo dolorously"

---------------------

Tears:

"...affected Ellena to tears"
"a few tears fell on his cheek"

Trees:
palm


palm tree - Photo by John Lees - Flickr, Creative Commons

Ends on page 130 with "westward towards Aquila"

Volume II, Chapter I, Part II

76. / 1. It's not entirely clear, but since the old man knows about the punishment cell, and since he is moved to help by hearing that Ellena is to be punished in that way, it is likely that he came to that spot to pray for the soul of the nun who died there. He is praying and sighing when the others come upon him, so perhaps he even knew the nun.

77. / 2. Lambent means a soft glow; dolorously means in a way that reveals grief or depression.

We're getting a few more geographical clues at this point in the text. There is a reference to "Aquila" (L'Aquila), a city high in the Apennines (where there was a terrible earthquake a few years ago), and "the lake of Celano" (also known as Lago di Celano, the Fucine Lake), a large body of body of water in central Italy which was drained about one hundred years after this novel is set.

(I can't quite get the map I want, so this will have to do!)

You can see Naples to the south on the coast, Rome to the north-west of it, a bit more inland. North-east from Rome you can see Aquila, and south of that Avezzano, which is in the region where the lake was before it was drained.



And here is a view of this area showing its mountains and lakes:

Being that the terrain is so rough (though beautiful), I'm surprised that Vivaldi and Ellena didn't have more difficulty with their escape.

That's why they're on horseback. And in spite of its ruggedness, this is a populated area. There are villages, and I think the point is made in the text that shepherds and goatherds brought their flocks up into the foothills during summer, for the pasture, before moving them back down onto the plains for winter. Also, as we've seen, the shrine in the mountains is a destination for pilgrims. So there are roads, or at least tracks, from populated area to populated area.

I really love the setting for this novel!

Volume II, Chapter II, Part I
...in which two Carmelites seem to be following Ellena, Vivaldi, and Paolo

78. What is a hautboy?

79. What is a dairy-cabin?

------------------

Tears:
"burst into tears"
"drying her tears"

Trees:
olive
orange
chestnut
lemon
almond
fig (probably - because there were dried figs)


Fig tree - Photo by Paula Trabattoni - Flickr Creative Commons

Ends on page 138 with "...perfectly acquainted with it."

Just finished! :-)

Ok, Liz, I do have one question about the ending, and don't want to wait till Madeline gets there, so here goes: why is Paulo making such a big deal about the roof when Vivaldi was in the dungeon the whole time?

Volume II, Chapter II, Part I

78. It's a wind instrument, like an oboe.

79. It's a building where grazing animals are penned overnight, and for milking. The people in charge are called shepherds, but since there's a reference to goat's cheese a little later, it's likely "shepherd" is being used as a generic term and the men are looking after goats. (Although there's also a reference to a lamb, so maybe not.)

>155 Smiler69: Well done, Ilana!! :)

The place is more like a prison than a traditional dungeon: the view (such as it is) indicates where Vivaldi's cell is. When Paulo is outside he thinks he spots Vivaldi's cell when he is escaping, and is so overcome that he can hardly tear himself away from the place. But of course, when he later tries to confirm that the window he was staring at was Vivaldi's, it turns out that Vivaldi himself hasn't any way of knowing where he was - certainly not in relation to the roof, which he never saw. So we don't know if he was right, or fixating on the wrong thing. It's just a joke at poor Paulo's expense, but also another measure of his devotion to Vivaldi, that his glimpse of the cell-window affects him so powerfully.

I love the "spoiler" option. I'm glad that Tim finally agreed to put them here on LT. I never could see what the big deal was about having them here or why so many LTers were adamantly against them. They're so useful. Just ask Ilana! :)

Volume II, Chapter II, Part II
...in which Ellena and Vivaldi find lodging for the night

80. Where is Paolo spending the night? With the horses?

81. Please define:
"...can make moments fly as gaily as the voluptuaries of the city"

------------------

Trees:
chestnut
almond
palm
cypress
olive


Olive tree - Photo by Olivier Bacquet - Flicker, Creative Commons

Ends on page 144 with "malignant possibilities"

Volume II, Chapter II, Part II

80. / 1. I'm not sure he's spending the night anywhere - which bit are you looking at? They haven't stopped travelling yet, though Vivaldi leaves Ellena and Paolo at an inn temporarily while he tries to find a convent that will take Ellena in. Paolo wants to be partying with the peasants partying down by the lake. :)

81. / 2. "Voluptuaries" were people (usually men) who got their kicks out of "indulging the senses" - i.e. sex and booze and drugs in luxurious surroundings. Vivaldi is making the point that the simple pleasures of the peasants are really as satisfying as the indulgences of rich high-born city folk (another typical Gothic novel philosophy).

80. which bit are you looking at?

I'm looking at this:
Ellena stays at the Ursaline convent. Vivaldi goes to stay with the Benedictines.

Oh, sorry, yes! He probably went to the Benedictines with Vivaldi but Radcliffe didn't bother to mention it. :)

(Although he may have ended up spending the night with the horses anyway!)

:)

No time to read tonight. I'll continue tomorrow.

Volume II, Chapter III
..in which Schedoni suggests a punishment for Ellena

82. "She deserves--death."

Quite the holy man Schedoni turns out to be!

83. Is Schedoni wavering on Ellena's punishment to make it seem as if death was only the Marchesa's idea?

Ends on page 149 with "inflicting it only upon herself."

Volume II, Chapter III

82. Oh, these Catholics - ! :D

83. Yes, he wants it so that whatever he does, he can say he was only doing what she asked.

I need to skip tonight, but I'll continue tomorrow.

I'm reading a Mary Stewart novel - Thunder on the right - in which our heroine goes to visit her cousin, who has unexpectedly entered a convent in the French Pyrenees, and as she is led through the building has to remind herself that:

...this was not a story in the Radcliffe vein, where monastic cells and midnight terrors followed one another as the night the day, this was not a Transylvanian gorge in the dead hour of darkness. ... Nor was the courtyard ... even remotely suggestive of flagellation, of nuns walled up alive, or of the other commonplaces of fictional convent life.

Ha! That's beautiful, Kerry, thank you! :D

Volume 2, Chapter IV
...in which the Marquesa and Schedoni agree that Ellena must die in the province of Apulia

84. Please define...
"...the sophistry of the confessor"

85. "...to what has the folly of a son reduced thee!"

I like how the Marquesa blames her son for her own evil thoughts and behavior!

---------------------------------

Tears:
"She even shed a few tears..."
"She wept without restraint"

Melancholy Count: - 24
"...in a strain particularly melancholy and solemn"

End on page 156 with "...he did not despair"

Volume 2, Chapter IV

84. Sophistry is arguing from false principles, or making a plausible but actually fallacious argument.

85. Well, sure - isn't that why people have children?? :)

Skipping tonight. Will be back tomorrow.

Volume II, Chapter V, Part I
...in which Ellena consents to marry Vivaldi

86. Why was the monk who would marry the couple not told of their disparate social statuses?

87. "gloom of twilight"
"It was a gloomy evening"
"the lake, which broke in dark waves upon the shore"
"hollow sounds"
"heavy thunder clouds"

Uh oh!

--------------------------------

Melancholy Count - 26
"beneath the shade of those melancholy boundaries"
"She watched with melancholy foreboding..."

Tree:
pine

Tears:
"She wept, and drew her veil over her tears."
"...smiled on him through her tears"

Ends on page 160 with "otherwise necessary"

Volume II, Chapter II, Part I

86. Well, it's not really any of his business. Worldly considerations like that shouldn't enter into it, though as we've seen there was often a gap between theory and practice. :)

87. The scene appeared to sympathise with the spirits of Ellena...

"Uh-oh", indeed!

Volume II, Chapter V, Part II
... in which Vivaldi and Ellena are separated

88. "a group worthy of the pencil"

What does that mean?

89. What is meant by "the most holy Inquisition"?

90. My Comment: I think that scroll is a fake!

91. What was the crime of Vivialdi and Ellena as determined by the Inquisition? Having had sexual relations? If so, why was Ellena determined to be the only guilty party?

Oh. Now I see. The crime was Vivaldi's having stolen a "nun". So someone else lied! Schedoni, no doubt!

92. "I dare not oppose the orders of the Inquisition."

What a wimp!

93. "the charge of having broken your nun's vows"

Was that an offense which had to be punished by the church even if the perpetrator acknowledged the "crime"? Couldn't a nun just decide to leave the convent?

94. "I warrant they would not contradict each other's evidence a tittle".

What's that?

-----------

Tree:
cypress

Tears
"unable to speak, wept"
"he impatiently wiped away a few tears"

Faintings:
"caught her before she fell to the ground"
"Ellena was now insensible"
"...he became unable to support himself"
"a sudden film came over his sight, and his senses forsook him"
"he no longer heard"

Ends on page 167 with "I demand to be sent to the Inquisition!"

Here Paolo reminds me of Sancho Panza in Don Quixote.

Volume II, Chapter V, Part II

88. That they would make an interesting painting - that as a group they are "picturesque".

Seeing the world as a series of set-pieces for an artist became a common feature of Gothic novels, and most of that originated with Radcliffe, who is sometimes explicit about with with references to the work of Salvator Rosa, a 17th century Italian painter who became known for painting rather wild landscapes at a time when formal works and "civilised" subject matter was the accepted thing. Rosa wasn't successful in his own time but was more appreciated in the 18th century when there was a greater appreciation of nature.

89. We met the Inquisition before, at the end of The Monk...

Briefly, the Inquisition was a judicial arm of the Catholic Church whose task was to seek out and punish heresy (denial of church teachings) or breaches of orthodoxy. Its powers became greatly expanded in the wake of the Protestant Reformation and it became increasingly involved in things like witch-trials. In Italy the Inquisition was mostly active as a "defender of the faith", with powers to investigate and punish crimes against the church; while in Spain and Portugal the Inquisition was very active in seeking out and persecuting Jews who either refused to convert, or who pretended to convert to Catholicism, and finally in driving the Jews out of both countries. The Inquisition could and did use torture to force confessions, and inflicted a wide range of punishments up to and including burning at the stake.

Not surprisingly, the Inquisition is one of the standard Gothic novel bogey-men, since through Protesant eyes the Inquisition was the manifestation of Catholic cruelty and rule-by-fear. It was usually assumed that anyone arrested by the Inquisition would never see the light of day again.

90. Wait and see. :)

91. Yes, the accusation is that Ellena is a nun (which *we* know isn't true) and that Vivaldi stole her away from her convent. (One of the accusations: Vivaldi is eventually accused of a separate transgression.)

92. Well, no. Not only was defying the Inquisition a suicidally dangerous thing for anyone to do, but for a priest it was seen as defying church authority. (See #89)

93. Absolutely not. A nun could only leave a convent via a dispensation from the Pope. (Again, you might remember that one of the subplots in The Monk involved trying to get a dispensation for Agnes, since she took her vows after havijg been deceived.) Running away from a convent was a serious offence. Of course, in this case Ellena hasn't actually done anything wrong, since she never took vows in the first place.

94. A tittle is actually the correct name for a dot in punctuation, like that over an 'i' or a 'j'. Used in speech like that, it means a tiny bit of something - "They would not contradict each other's evidence one little bit."

89. In Italy the Inquisition was mostly active as a "defender of the faith"

I'm confused. I'm familiar with the history of the Jews during the time of the Inquisition in Spain and Portugal, but what I know of those events took place during the late 15th century. Isn't the setting of our novel much later in time? What was the duration of the Inquisition? Is "the office of the holy Inquisition" and the more general term "the Inquisition" the same thing? Did they run concurrently during the same time period in Spain, Portugal, and Italy?

89. The Inquisition could and did use torture to force confessions, and inflicted a wide range of punishments up to and burning at the stake

Uh...what about "Thou shalt not kill"? :O

92. Not only was defying the Inquisition a suicidally dangerous thing for anyone to do, but for a priest it was seen as defying church authority.

It always amazes me that extreme religious dogma is never to be questioned.

93. Running away from a convent was a serious offence.

These seem more like prisons to me then than houses to serve the Lord.

What if a nun decided she no longer wanted to be a nun? Many women must have made the decision to become a nun when very young or after a heartbreak. It seems unfair that what have might been an impulsive, youthful decision could never be reversed. The same could be said for monks...although it seems as if that didn't hold Schedoni back from doing whatever he wanted.

It also freaks me out that extremely religious people see killing 100% fine if it is done in the name of their own deity.

89. The Holy Office of the Inquisition was founded in France in the 12th century, and lasted until the early 19th century. It was then abolished except in the Papal States, territories in Italy ruled directly by the Pope. European Catholic countries each had their own Inquisition, and the institution spread with Spanish and Portuguese colonisation, so there were branches in South America and Goa, for example.

Since the Inquisition was the judicial arm of the church it technically still exists, although its name and functions have both changed (it's now the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office).

The purpose of the Inquisition shifted from country to country, and according to what Pope was in office. Its overarching purpose was to identify and punish heretics. In the first place its function was to control heretical behaviour by Catholics, but in countries with a more mixed population the Inquisition became increasingly focused upon persecuting non-Catholics, particularly Jews and Muslims.

In my experience it's only non-religious and a-religious types who tend to have a problem with killing in God's name. :)

92. You need to appreciate that for centuries, for many people the Catholic Church was *the* supreme authority, God's representatives on earth. For most people, there was no other way of thinking or believing. Questioning the Church was questioning God. (And without getting into murky waters, clearly there are still religious bodies who respond to being defied or even questioned with violence.)

93. They were both, if you like. Obviously there were people with a genuine vocation who chose to enter a convent or a monastery as a way of serving God, but many young women were also forced into convents or at least allowed to take vows at an age where they shouldn't be making long-term decisions. It was partly a way of "disposing" of excess women, of keeping money in the family (no need to provide dowries), and it could also be prestigious for families to have a connection with particular religious houses.

Once the vows had been taken there was rarely a way out. It required exceptional circumstances, or really good family connections.

***However***

Don't forget that in reading these novels, you're always going to be presented with the worst and most negative aspects of all of these institutions. Gothic novels aren't history! Certainly not good history. :)

And of course, one of the interesting things about The Monk is that, although the Inquisition does what it does, it is effectively presented as a force for good, since it acts to stop and punish the bad guys. That's very rare for an English novel.

>178 lyzard:

Thank you for your thorough explanation. I always thought of "The Inquisition" as a time period in history rather than the judicial arm of the Church. If I now think of it as "The Holy Office of the Inquisition", I'll probably be closer to what it really was.

Gothic novels aren't history!

LOL!

Volume II, Chapter VI, Part I
...in which Vivaldi and Paolo are separated

95. Were all the prisoners of the Inquisition imprisoned in Rome?

96. "...they sportively threw about their sugarplumbs"

What are those?

97. "...over this was an inscription in Hebrew letters"

What would that have been? What would it have said? Why was it in Hebrew?

------------------------

Melancholy Count - 28
"...where a melancholy and universal silence prevailed"
"...without feeling a melancholy awe"

Tears:
"...while he wept, and his words were almost stifled by sobs"
"...said Paolo, sobbing violently"

Ends on page 175 with "...must involve her in destruction."

Volume II, Chapter VI, Part I

95. No, but in this case Rome was the nearest "headquarters".

96. A sugarplumb, or sugar-plum, was candied fruit. This was the forerunner of confectionary as we now know it, and was often kept for special occasions - in this case, a carnival (a public festival).

97. Probably to make the whole thing even more mysterious and terrifying. (Sorry! :) )

96. Why were they throwing candy through the air? Wasn't that wasteful? Wouldn't that attract vermin? I'm assuming that these confections were unwrapped.

97. Now I really want to know what was in Radcliffe's mind when she added this sentence about the Hebrew letters!!

Skipping tonight. I'll continue tomorrow.

>183 SqueakyChu: We're talking a great big swarming street party here. I doubt anyone was worried about details like that, even if they thought of "vermin" the way we might.

>184 SqueakyChu: No worries. :)

Volume II, Chapter VI, Part II
...in which Vivaldi states he has nothing to confess

98. "...an accuser as malicious as Schedoni steal from behind it"

...which would not surprise me in the least.

99. "..or to undergo the question"

What does that mean?

------------------------------

Melancholy Count - 29
"Vivaldi followed him from the apartment in the melancholy silence."

Ends on page 181 with "the melancholy silence".

Volume II, Chapter VI, Part II

99. It's a euphemism for "to be tortured".

Volume II, Chapter VII
...in which Ellena is held captive

100. Was there someone in Ellena's room that night?

---------------------

Trees:
olive
oak
chestnut

Fainting:
"...her senses forsook her."

Ends on page 187 with "...she obtained a short repose."

Volume II, Chapter VII

100. / 1. Wait and see! :D

We get a bit more geography now, as we follow Ellena. The text lets us know that she is on the other side of the country from Vivaldi.

On the map on the left, we can see Naples, where all this started, Rome, where Vivaldi is being held, and the Gargano Peninsula, the "spur" on the east coast of Italy that juts into the Adriatic Sea, which is where Ellena is imprisoned. This is an area with spectacular rocky cliffs and coastal areas, although also some beautiful beaches.

    

100. / 1. Wait and see! :D

That means the answer is definitely "Yes!"

All of the "prison rooms" in our various gothic novels seem to have many secret passageways to enter and exit those rooms.

>190 lyzard:

Years ago (in 1973 to be exact), I had the fun of traveling along the Adriatic coast - although I was on the north shore of the Adriatic Sea when I did so. I traveled along that coast of the former Republic of Yugoslavia from Skopje (east of Dubrovnik) to the Italian border when I turned to travel more inland. I was able to best see the Adriatic Sea from the top of the wall surrounding the old city of Dubrovnik. I was also in Split (pictured on the above map).

My mom grew up in Yugoslavia in an area of what is now Croatia. She and her family always used to vacation at the Adriatic Sea.

I've been paying lots of attention to the description of the scenery (and love the attention to the trees) in this novel. It's fabulous!

>191 SqueakyChu: Not necessarily, it just means I'm not going to answer you. :)

As I recall, Madeline's ordinary bedroom in Clermont had one too!

>192 SqueakyChu: Oh, how lovely!

>193 lyzard:

Not necessarily, it just means I'm not going to answer you.

LOL!!

As I recall, Madeline's ordinary bedroom in Clermont had one too!

Mmm Hmmm!

Volume II, Chapter VIII
...in which Ellena encounters Schedoni

101. What kind of name is Spalatro?

102. "...she perceives a Monk"

Aha!

103. "...rudely seizing her arm"

A monk would do this?

104. So was the original plan for Schedoni to slay her in this isolated area?

105. Did any of Ellena's food contain poison?

-----------------------------------------

Fainting:
"...she sunk, almost fainting, on the mattress"
"...she tottered, and sunk upon the beach."

Ends on page 196 with "the horrors of a tempest."

Volume II, Chapter VIII

101. An Italian or possibly Croatian name ("Spalatro" is a place in Dalmatia), though I believe at the time this novel is set, Croatia was a part of Austria. (Maybe? Anyone?)

103. It depends on the monk. :)

104. He had a dagger---but he hesitated to use it...

It would appear so.

Although---

105. At this point you have to give a certain weight to the fact that Ellena is (understandably) feeling extremely paranoid, and that much of the narrative is from her perspective. Was there someone in her room? Was her food poisoned...?

On the other hand, as the saying goes, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're NOT out to get you! :D

>196 lyzard:

101. I'm not sure about the time of this novel, but at the time that my maternal grandparents were living in what's now Croatia and was formerly the Republic of Yugoslavia was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

103. It depends on the monk

Haha!

105. On the other hand, as the saying goes, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean that they're NOT out to get you!

Yeah. All of what Ellena imagined seemed uncertain either way.

Volume II, Chapter IX
...in which Ellena discovers that Schedoni is her father

106. "But with such panegyrics their friendship for Schedoni concluded."

What are panegyrics?

107. How could the Marchesa raise Schedoni's status in the church? By donating money on his behalf?

108. "...to trust a second attempt by such means"

There had been poison in Ellena's food!

109. Are we to understand that Spalatro had killed other people for Schedoni in the past?

--------------------------------------
Tears:
"...their lids were yet wet with tears"
"tears stole from beneath her eyelids"
"shrinking from his grasp, and weeping"
"wetted her cheek with his tears"
"Ellena wept to see him weep"

Ends on page 210 with "measures the gulf with his eye."

Volume II, Chapter IX

106. A panegyric is a speech, written or spoken but usually intended for public dissemination, in praise of something (possibly exaggerated praise). In this case, Schedoni's fellow monks talk a lot about how much they admire him, but none of them give him any actual help.

107. By using her (or her husband's) influence and getting him appointed to prestigious church positions which would give him a lot of power. (Yes, yes - another thing a monk isn't supposed to be concerned with!)

The Vivaldis are a very powerful and well-connected family, which is why the Marchese and Marchesa are so dead set against Vivaldi marrying a nobody like Ellena.

108. Hey, I didn't say Ellena was wrong! :D

109. I think that would be a reasonable conclusion to draw, yes.

We get still more geography here, as we begin to learn a bit about Schedoni's past.

On the rather stylised map on the left (which illustrates Italy's mountains), you can see Milan in the north. The estates belonging to Schedoni's family are, Near the feet of the Tyrolean Alps:

    

...also, I think we need to draw attention to this remarkable passage:

...perceiving Schedoni, and by the pale glare of the lamp, his haggard countenance, she shrieked and sunk back on the pillow. She had not fainted; and believing that he came to murder her, she now exerted herself to plead for mercy...

:)

>200 lyzard:

you can see Milan in the north

Having been in Milan myself, I'm getting a nice sense of geography from this story. I really like that you're mapping it out, though.

>201 lyzard:

She had not fainted

I noticed that remarkable phrase. Why hadn't she fainted?

Off topic I

I'm concurrently reading Doing Italians...oops...Italy, a funny memoir and travelogue of two women friends in contemporary Italy. In this book, the two are now traveling from Florence to Capri. I met one of the co-authors, Stephanie Jones, at a local book fair. She came to my Little Free Library to donate the book she wrote...but I grabbed it right away to read. :)

Off topic II

My former traveling buddy (who once traveled through northern Italy with me) is going to Sicily in July with two friends. I'll be waiting for her report back to me about the country...and its men! :)

Volume II, Chapter X, Part I
...in which Schedoni makes plans for how to proceed

110. Why did Signora Bianchi lie to Ellena about her father?

111. If Signora Bianchi didn't want Ellena to know about her father, why did the former give the latter that miniature?

112. How do we know if Ellena's mother is really dead?

113. I don't understand exactly how Scedoni is now altering his plans with respect to the Marchesa and Vivaldi. Could you explain this in a simple way for me?

-------------------------

Ends on page 214 with "in a convent along the way."

>202 SqueakyChu:

Ooh, nice!

Why hadn't she fainted?

I think that's a rare example of physiological reality: people don't usually faint when they're in danger, they get a "fight or flight" response which requires full consciousness. It's only in novels that people drop like flies at every shock!

You seem to be very immersed in Italians all things Italian at the moment! :)

Volume II, Chapter X, Part I

110. She didn't lie to her - she just kept a lot of secrets, presumably at the behest of her sister, Ellena's mother.

111. Again, she didn't: She recollected only the accident which had discovered to her, in Bianchi's cabinet, after the death of the latter, the miniature and the name of her father...

112. What do you expect me to say to that? :)

113. Schedoni has thrown himself into the plot against Ellena with the idea of eventually gaining position and power for himself, through the Marchesa's influence. Now he sees that he can improve his position and gain influence through Ellena's marriage to Vivaldi - that is, he will become a de facto member of the Vivaldi family - but only if the Marchese and Marchesa can be brought to accept Ellena as their daughter-in-law.

Of course, this new murder-free plot requires him to undo everything he has so far done with respect to Ellena herself, who he has been encouraging the Marchesa to see as a scheming little upstart, and it also needs him to get Vivaldi out of the clutches of the Inquisition.

The Marchese is unlikely to relent, but Schedoni believes that the Marchesa will be the deciding factor. He thinks he can win her approval of the marriage, on one hand because he knows all her nasty secrets, on the other because he is now plotting to secure Vivaldi's freedom in a way that makes him, Schedoni, look like a hero.

But worst comes to worst, he will marry Ellena to Vivaldi and trust that things will work out.

113. Thanks!

Volume II, Chapter X, Part II
...in which Schedoni accompanies Ellena west through Italy on the way back to Naples

114. "dismissed Spalatro"

I don't believe this will be the end of him in this story.

115. Is there something that happened between Spalatro and Schedoni in the past that has not yet been revealed?

116. "...he was in league with some person who designed to attack them"

I think she's right.

117. Please explain this phrase: "...a defile so convenient for the purpose of rapine as that of yesterday"

------------------------------------------

Tears:
"she raised her eyes, filled with tears"
"she added, weeping unrestrainedly"

Trees:
oak
chestnut
plane


Plane tree - Photo courtesy Vinayaraj - Creative Commons BY-SA 3.0

Ends on page 225 with "with gayer hopes."

**********************

End of Volume II - !!!!!!!!!!

**********************

Volume II, Chapter X, Part II

114. You might be right about that...

115. Now, what kind of a question is that??

116. Or maybe she's just paranoid. Then again... :)

117. A defile is a narrow passage between two mountains; rapine means stealing by the use of force. So they were travelling through a narrow pass that was dangerous because it was a good place for an ambush.

End of Volume II - !!!!!!!!!!

WHOO!!!!

115. Now, what kind of a question is that??

LOL!!

Note:

I love seeing the maps, scenes, and trees while working on this book. Could we do that with our next book, assuming that the characters move from place to place and there is some sort of flora (or fauna) within the pages of the book. I think those colorful interludes on our thread help make the story come alive.

Note 2:

My friend leaves for Italy in just three days! :)

"...a defile so convenient for the purpose of rapine as that of yesterday"

That was definitely a passage I had scratched my head about. Thanks for clearing that up!

>209 SqueakyChu: If it's possible, yes, but most of these writers were a lot less specific than Radcliffe - they'll just say the characters were "in the mountains" and leave it at that. Actually from memory Radcliffe was not this specific in her other books. But anyway, if someone gives us geographical prompts, we can certainly do this again.

>210 Smiler69: Welcome!

Volume III, Chapter I, Part I
...in which Spalatro again appears

118. "...which crowned the acclivity they were approaching"

What is an acclivity?

119. "...distinguished the figure and countenance of Spalatro"

Aha!

120. "his countenance became fell"

What does that mean?

------------------------------------------------------------

Trees:
palmetto
ash


Ash tree - Photo courtesy of Wendy Cutler, Flickr, CC-BY 2.0

Ends on page 234 with "relax their speed."

Volume 3, Chapter I, Part I

118. An acclivity is an upward slope.

119. Dum, dum, dummm...

120. He had a sinister expression.

Volume III, Chapter I, Part II
...in which Schedoni and Ellena reach an inn

121. "...understanding only that Schedoni had been much more deeply connected with Spalatro than she had hitherto believed."

Aha!

122. "vendors of ice, macaroni, sherbet, and diavoloni"

What's that?

123. What kind of festivity was that in the town? Were those traveling performers, or were the performers town residents, and the day was some sort of holiday?

----------------------

Ends on page 240 with "the only ducat she had left."

Volume II, Chapter I, Part II

121. :)

122. Sugar-plums (which we encountered earlier), but with a liqueur centre.

123. Since the characters keep encountering street parties, it is likely that this is the time of the Carnival, which is the festival preceding Lent in the Catholic calendar. Everyone has a big party before giving up indulgences and living more austerely in the lead-up to Easter. The Carnival often features entertainers of all kinds including the performers noted in the text, who were probably professional travelling actors.

Volume III, Chapter II, Part I
...in which the peasant tells a story

124. "His death only could secure the secret."

Schedoni seems to be trying hard to murder at least someone in this novel!

125. Why are "the Confessor" and "Schedoni" talking as two separate people in this part of the chapter? Aren't they the same person? I was getting confused.

126. "Be less prolix"

Does that mean "Talk less!"?

127. Why is the peasant telling his story in such a faltering, roundabout way? To be funny? To increase the drama? To annoy Schedoni? To annoy the reader?

-------------------------------------

Ends on page 247 with "...the face of a corpse within! O Signor!"

Volume III, Chapter II, Part I

124. But does he achieve his ambition!? WAIT AND SEE!! :D

125. Just two different ways of saying the same thing. Confession was one of the main Protestant objections to Catholicism, so Radcliffe may be choosing to call Schedoni "the Confessor" when he is being most un-monk-like (to emphasise what a hypocrite he is).

126. "Yes!" (she said briefly).

Prolix means "at unnecessary length" - not just talking too much, but taking forever to get to the point.

127. A couple of reasons. The gabby servant who never gets to the point was a traditional supporting character in this sort of work (you can probably blame it on Shakespeare), and there is certainly meant to be a measure of humour about it - although it can also get very tiresome.

But at the same time it is a suspense device of sorts here, since clearly Schedoni is trying to find out exactly how much the man knows, without revealing in turn how interested he is in the peasant's story, but cannot quite pin him down. Also, in this way the reader never gets the full story either, just more hints about the novel's back-story.

I found that passage particularly annoying, I must say.

>217 lyzard:
124. But does he achieve his ambition!? WAIT AND SEE!!

LOL!

>218 Smiler69:
127. I found that passage particularly annoying, I must say.

Me, too!

Volume III, Chapter II, Part II
...in which Schedoni sends the peasant away

128. " 'tis plain you know the rest already or you never would go without it."

Is this statement of major significance?

129. Why is Schedoni so very insistent on giving the peasant his stiletto? Is there some "misdeed" associated with that weapon?

130. Could you explain what the author is trying to say in the paragraph that begins with "Her expressive countenance..."?

Is it that Schedoni has never been in love so he gives no credence to Ellena's feelings and therefore values his own feelings more?

----------------------

Tears:
"She thanked him almost with tears..."
"When she distinguished the top of Vesuvius peering over every intervening summit, she wept."

Melancholy Count - 30
"...with a mixture of melancholy and satisfaction"

Ends on page 253 with "...of his grand design."

(Sorry! Computer meltdown yesterday - fun!)

Volume III, Chapter II. Part II

128. Not necessarily - this is one interpretation of Schedoni's behaviour - the peasant assumes that Schedoni must know the end of the story he's telling or he couldn't bear to miss hearing it - although we might be inclined to think it's just that he can't stand to listen to any more blather. :)

129. Ahem...wait and see...

130. This and your next question are on more or less the same point - that a man like Schedoni, so obsessed with plots and schemes and exploiting other people's weaknesses, has lost (if he ever had it) the ability to understand people different from himself - or rather, he assumes everyone else is motivated by greed / hatred / lust for power like he is.

This is one of the main theses of the sentimental novel (of which the Gothic is a subgenre), that "better" people have "better" feelings - more delicate, more refined, more capable of appreciating both art and nature.

Ellena, being "better", is overcome with emotion both at being back home in Naples and having associated thoughts of Vivaldi (she doesn't know what's happened to him). Schedoni thinks he understands what she is feeling - and is contemptuous of her for feeling it - but in fact he is incapable of understanding her.

The point of that passage is that because his own thoughts and feelings are so stunted and warped, he is often wrong about other people, even while he is patting himself on the back for being so much smarter than they are and seeing through them so easily. He also disregards qualities such as sympathy and sensitivity, or rather sees them as weaknesses. Thus he often ends up fooling himself.

Volume III, Chapter III
...in which Schedoni meets with the Marchesa

131. ...be brief."

Good advice...especially after the last chapter!

132. "...a conduct so pusillanimous"

Which means? I'd love to use this word in a sentence myself!

133. Why did Schedoni so soon give up his plan to tell the Marchesa about his relationship to Ellena?

-----------------------------

Trees:
orange
palm
plantain


Plaintain tree - Photo courtesy of Rich Young - Flicker, CC-A)

Ends on page 260 with "...all farther design against Ellena."

Volume III, Chapter III

131. :D

132. Cowardly, in the sense of lacking resolution, or chickening out of something (in this case, committing murder!).

133. He was never going to tell her yet - he was just testing the waters in this conversation, to see if hinting that Ellena's birth was better than they had believed would change how the Marchesa felt about the marriage. However, it is clear to him immediately that not only does this make no change, but that the Marchesa has ceased to trust him (because she, in turn, has seen that he has reasons for not murdering Ellena - in fact, for protecting Ellena - that he is not revealing to her).

Volume II, Chapter IV
...in which Ellena passes times at the convent Santa della Piéta

134. Why was the mother superior portrayed as such a magnificent person in this novel? Weren't all Catholics portrayed with at least some faults in the gothic novels of this time?

135. "...to seduce votaries to the order"

What are votaries?

-------------------------------

Melancholy Count - 32
"She frequently yielded to the melancholy which she endeavored to suppress in society."
"In such melancholy considerations..."

Trees:
olive
walnut
almond
orange
cypress
acacia
plane-tree
citron


Citron tree - Photo courtesy of ceiling, Flickr, CC-A

Ends on page 265 with "to seduce votaries to the order."

Volume II, Chapter IV

134. It is unusual. Radcliffe herself came from a Dissenting background, and so knew what it was to be an outsider in religious terms, so she might have been more willing to admit that there were good Catholics as well as bad Catholics (while getting a lot more mileage out of the bad Catholics).

BUT---if you read that passage carefully, what Radcliffe is actually saying is that the Mother Superior is not a good Catholic at all (as opposed to a bad Catholic): all the qualifications that Radcliffe makes in describing her - like "She conformed to the customs of the Roman church, without supposing a faith in all of them to be necessary to salvation" and "She seldom touched upon points of faith, but explained and enforced the moral duties" - add up to her not really practising the Catholic faith.

So it's a backhanded compliment.

135. Followers, particularly in the sense of a religion.

The word "seduce" here is another common Protestant criticism of the Catholic convent system, where girls were supposed to be lured in by flattery and deceit rather than going in with their eyes wide open.

I'm skipping tonight. I'll continue tomorrow.

Volume II, Chapter V, Part I
...in which Vivaldi is questioned by the Inquisitors

136. What does it mean to be "put to the question"?

137. "throwing over him a singular kind of mantle"

Over his head? Over his shoulders? Why?

138. Who or what is an "exchequer"?

---------------------------------

Ends on page 276 with "more gloomily terrific than before."

Volume II, Chapter V, Part I

136. To be tortured.

137. A mantle is like a sleeveless cloak. Probably done as part of the ritual, to mark him out as a person under suspicion. Note that they came to get him at midnight. It's all done to terrorise people into compliance.

138. The exchequer is the government treasury, or in a more casual sense it means whoever has the money or whoever is paying for something. In this context I would take that to mean that a representative of the government is part of the tribunal.

Volume III, Chapter V, Part II
...in which Vivaldi has a dream

No questions.

Comment: I think that Vivaldi's prison cell has a secret passageway! :)

-------------------------

Ends on page 283 with "by doing so."

Well, that spoils my fun for the day!

I think that Vivaldi's prison cell has a secret passageway!

I'd be desperately disappointed if it didn't... :D

Volume III, Chapter VI
...in which Vivaldi tells the grand inquisitor what he learned the previous night

139. "...father Ansaldo, one grand penitentiary"

What is a penitentiary? It's obviously a person, not a prison.

140. Why was Vivaldi commanded to tremble?

141. Why did the grand inquisitor say "you will soon know more"? Why would he and his inquisitors be providing information to Vivaldi?

--------------------------------------

Ends on page 291 with "less than reason".

Volume III, Chapter VI

139. A penitentiary in this context is a special court attached to the Vatican, which is responsible for examining questions of conscience, the circumstances under which confessions are made, absolution from vows, and other matters of spiritual process. (You were asking earlier why a nun couldn't just leave a convent, and I said she'd have to make a case to get her vows absolved - the penitentiary is the court where her case would be judged.) The Grand Peitentiary is the Cardinal who oversees the court; he is appointed by the pope.

In this case, Father Ansaldo is the Grand Penitentiary attached to the Order of the Black Penitents, who we heard about at the beginning of the novel.

140. It's an elaborate way of warning him to be careful of what he says - or to think about the consequences of not doing what he's been told to do, or of deceiving or misleading the tribunal. The Inquisition had limitless powers to punish anyone who defied it.

141. They are interested enough in what he has been saying to treat him like a witness rather than a prisoner.

Volume III, Chapter VII, Part I
...in which Ansaldo and Schedoni are summoned

142. "Never!"

He's lying!

143. "...the penitentiary denied all knowledge of Schedoni."

They're both lying! Then again, maybe they did not see each other during the time of the confession.

144. Why was "a private examination" noted so specifically in this text?

145. How can Ansaldo know all of those facts at this time? For example, how can he remember a specific date if it had not been written down?

146. So is Ansaldo saying that Schedoni was the penitent, or that he's not sure if Schedoni was the penitent? Did he recognize Schedoni by his height? Did he recognize Schedoni's voice?

---------------------------------------------

Ends on page 296 with "...proceeded as follows:"

Volume II, Chapter VII, Part I

142. & 143. Well, that's the question - the people involved in a confession are not supposed to see one another.

144. Because we've moved on from an accusation of heresy against a member of the public to scandalous accusations against members of religious orders; consequently the Inquisition conducts itself differently. In particular it is because the tribunal is forcing Ansaldo to repeat a confession, which was only done under extraordinary circumstances.

145. Apart from the fact that the confession was so extraordinary, which would tend to make him remember it anyway, the confession was made on the evening before the beginning of a festival, which would mark the date for him.

146. We don't know. He's certainly not eager to admit that he recognises him, if he does.

Volume III, Chapter VII, Part II
...in which Ansaldo tells his story

147. Ansaldo says, "I was myself the lover of the woman, whom he confessed himself to have murdered"

What did Ansaldo mean by "lover"?

148. Is a penitentiary allowed to have a murderer arrested because he heard such a confession? Isn't a confession private? Or does a murder become a legal matter rather than a religious one in this case?

149. The penitentiary says re: Count de Bruno, "he mentioned my name as his visitor" .

What does this mean?

150. How did the stranger get into the private chamber?

-----------------------------------

Fainting:
"he sunk against a pillar of the hall for support"

Ends on page 300 with "in a hollow voice".

Volume III, Chapter VII, Part II

147. Only that he was in love with her; the other meaning didn't exist until quite recently.

148. Confessions were (are) supposed to be kept secret except under extraordinary circumstances; even today the courts usually uphold a priest who will refuse to repeat something to do with a crime told during confession. But perhaps because the penitentiary had extra powers (as the head of a court), he was permitted to take action upon becoming aware of a crime.

The Inquisition could bring about secular punishment if it discovered a secular crime, while reserving the right to punish religious crimes itself. This particular crime (or alleged crime) is confusing because it has many religious - or "religious" - people mixed up in it.

149. Presumably Ansaldo, like Schedoni, adopted a new name upon becoming a monk (or perhaps Ansaldo is his first name). The man who was the lover of the Countess di Bruni was known as Sacchi; when the penitent is making his confession, he mentions a man called "Sacchi"---to Father Ansaldo, who is Sacchi.

150. Good question. :)

You will find out a bit more about the stranger in the next set of pages.

"he sunk against a pillar of the hall for support"

I always enjoy it when the men start fainting!

149. to Father Ansaldo, who is Sacchi

Oh. I didn't get that. That went over my head.

150. Good question.

Haha!

149. That was the point of the phrase, "He mentioned my name as his visitor" that you asked about.

ETA: 148. It also occurs to me that perhaps the penitentiary should not have been pursuing the person who confessed, but that he forgot himself upon hearing that man confess to murdering the woman he (the penitentiary) was in love with.

I'm skipping tonight. I'll continue tomorrow.

Volume III, Chapter VII, Part III
...in which Schedoni is questioned

I have no idea what is going on in this part of the chapter. Two friends had a falling out? Could you please explain for me what happens here very simply? Thank you.

-------------------

Ends on page 306 with "from an inquisitor"

Volume III, Chapter VII, Part III

I'm not sure that I can explain it very simply, but...

Most of the roundabout-ing here turns on the question of whether Schedoni is the Count di Bruno*, since it is fairly well-established that the Count di Bruno first murdered his own brother, in order to obtain both his estates and his wife, and then later murdered his wife (his former sister-in-law) out of jealousy.

(Another example of how books of this period assume you understand how titles work. The Count di Bruno who confessed became the Count di Bruno by murdering his brother, also called the Count di Bruno, and so inheriting his title.)

The problem is that the "evidence" is all accusation and hearsay. The stranger says he knows that Schedoni is the second Count di Bruno and a murderer, but so far has produced no evidence. He says that the bloody dagger was used to kill the first Count di Bruno, and he says that he has a written confession from the person paid to commit the murder by Schedoni, but he has not proven either of these things.

As you picked up, there is a definite sense that the stranger and Schedoni were old friends, or at least old allies, who had a falling out, which allows Schedoni to argue that the charges against him are malicious.

We (and Vivaldi) are not quite sure who to believe here, but we do learn that (i) the stranger is an officer of the Inquisition, which explains how he managed to slip into this "private hearing" (he would know his way around), and that (ii) he was the mysterious monk who kept warning Vivaldi away from Ellena, and the person who slandered Ellena to the Marchese. Presumably Schedoni wanted a third person to do that, so that he could then deny that he did it.

That's about all we know for certain at this point.

>240 SqueakyChu: I'm glad it's just not me. At this point it seemed that a fairly straightforward (for a Gothic novel) storyline suddenly got very tangled, to the point that I wondered if my edition had some missing pages!

>241 lyzard:

Thanks! That helps a lot.

Volume III, Chapter VII, Part IV
...in which the stranger pleads his case

151. "...we must judge from probabilities, as well as from proof"

I object!

152. Assuming all that the stranger said was correct, why would he now be betraying his friend (or former friend) Schedoni by exposing him?

------------------------------

Tears:
"Tears fell fast on Vivaldi's cheek..."

Note: I didn't enjoy reading this chapter at all. It was way too complicated! :(

Ends on page 310 with "the sitting of the tribune was resolved"

Volume III, Chapter VII, Part IV

151. Circumstantial evidence: still causing arguments nearly two hundred years later.

152. We will find out a bit more about his motives as we go along...

It was way too complicated!

Now, be fair - most Gothics are MUCH more complicated than this! Radcliffe has been spoiling you. :)

Radcliffe has been spoiling you.

LOL! There's nothing wrong with being spoiled. I do like how easily I've been able to keep characters straight in this novel so far. I hope that doesn't change. :)

Must skip tonight. Will continue tomorrow.

Volume III, Chapter VIII, Part I
...in which Count de Bruno's story is starting to be revealed

153. Why did the inquisitors wear different garb?

154. "...and those on that mountebank stage"

What's that?

155. What happened to the guide that ran away from Count di Bruno after he was shot?

------------------------------------

Tears:
"clinging to his knees and sobbing"
"again bursting into a passion of tears"
"while he with difficulty commanded his tears"
"he repeated, sobbing"
"while he dashed the tears from his cheek"

Ends on page 316 with "his master towards Naples."

Volume III, Chapter VIII, Part I

153. To indicate their different ranks within the hierarchy of the Inquisition, and how powerful each of them is.

154. A mountebank is a clown or a buffoon; the term was used generally as an insult, but it could also refer seriously to a comic performer within a play. In this case Paulo is very dangerously suggesting that the Inquisitors are just a bunch of dressed-up play-actors. (The two sets of Inquisitors, the three chief ones and the inferior ones, are seated on elevated platforms, i.e. "stages".)

155. Wait and see!* :)

(*Truthfully I can't remember whether he shows up again or not!)

Truthfully I can't remember whether he shows up again or not!

Heh!

I'll agree that it's very rarely that a Gothic novel leaves any plot-thread dangling, no matter how minor. :)

Volume III, Chapter VIII, Part II
...in which Vivaldi learns all of Schedoni's story

156. "he uttered these few words--"In me you have murdered the father of Ellena di Rosalba!"

Very dramatic!

157. What is the difference between a ducat and a paolo (assuming both are money)?

--------------------------

Tears:
"He fell at his master's feet, and shed tears."
"he made him cry"

Ends on page 321 with "even as a possibility."

Volume III, Chapter VIII, Part II

156. / 1. But hey! - it's better than having him around as your father-in-law, right?? :D

(It is typical that Schedoni would blame Vivaldi for his fate, when he's simply being hoist with his own petard.)

157. / 2. The value. A ducat was a valuable coin, made of gold or silver. A paolo was a copper coin of little worth. (Of course, in context that's also a joke at the expense of the real Paolo.)

156. it's better than having him around as your father-in-law, right

LOL! I agree.

157. Of course, in context that's also a joke at the expense of the real Paolo.

I was wondering if there was a connection.

I think the guard is suggesting that he's not worth very much, either. :)

Volume III, Chapter IX, Part I
...in which Ellena is reunited with Olivia

158. "...she regularly partook of the various occupations of the nuns"

Which were...?

__________________

Tears:
"the tears she shed contradicted the pride which had suggested it"
"it was seldom without tears"

(Corrected) Melancholy Count - 36 (counted two different melancholy #24 only once!)
"most melancholy hour"
"since the melancholy adieu you gave me"
"in a cloud of melancholy spreading again over her mind"

Trees:
acacia
plane-tree
chestnut


chestnut tree - Photo by Peter Broster, Flickr, CC-A

Ends on page 325 with "spreading again over her mind."

My goodness, you're early today!

Yes, I would always expect more rather than less melancholy-s. :)

Volume II, Chapter IX, Part I

158. It depends on the kind of convent. This is the same convent that Ellena was selling her embroidery to at the beginning of the novel, so it is likely that she is again contributing in that respect. Many convents did charitable work of different kinds; some had occupations such as gardening and cooking (both for the convent itself and to sell the excess), while others encouraged musical studies or facilitated a more general education. This would be in addition to regular prayers, masses, and confessions.

Volume III, Chapter IX, Part II
...in which Beatrice brings news of a death

159. What is a maccaroni man?

160. What is a varlet?

161. So is Olivia Ellena's mother? I thought that Olivia and Ellena were about the same age!

-------------------------------

Tears:
"she sometimes wept"
"weeping, trembling, and almost fainting"
"When, however, Ellena could weep, she became more tranquil..."

Ends on page 330 with "perhaps never experienced."

Volume III, Chapter IX, Part II

159. In this case, it's exactly what it sounds like: a person who delivers maccaroni (pasta).

160. "Varlet" is an odd word with contradictory meanings. It can mean a villain, or it can mean a valet, a servant who looks after a gentleman's clothing. Since Beatrice goes on to call him "the rogue", we assume she means he is a villain. (She's just being generally abusive.)

161. No, no! - remember this, from when Ellena first sees Olivia:

  Ellena was so fascinated by this interesting nun, that she forgot she was describing her to a person, whose callous heart rendered her insensible to the influence of any countenance, except, perhaps, the commanding one of the lady abbess; and to whom, therefore, a description of the fine traits, which Ellena felt, was as unintelligible as would have been an Arabic inscription.
  "She is passed the bloom of youth," continued Ellena, still anxious to be understood; "but she retains all its interesting graces, and adds to them the dignity of---"
  "If you mean that she is of middle age," interrupted Margaritone, peevishly, "it is sister Olivia you mention, for we are all younger than she is."

No, I didn't remember that. So is she Ellena's mother?

Wait and see! :)

(Bear with me - I won't have many more chances to say that!)

I won't have many more chances to say that!

...at least in this book! Ha!!

...This is so confusing then. I read the following...

..."joy was evidently a more predominant feeling with the parent than with the child"

That statement led me to believe that Olivia was Ellena's mother.

On thing I love about this book is that there are not too many characters with a whole multiplicity of names. Previous books we've read together just made me beserk with that issue.

But that's half the fun! :D

Or at least, it's more typical of the Gothic genre, so you can certainly expect to encounter that sort of thing more often than not.

I "wait and see"-ed rather than answering you because you broke off your reading in the middle of the scene that sorts it all out, so I thought I'd leave you to read the explanation for yourself.

Will do! :)

Volume III, Chapter IX, Part III
...in which Olivia's entire story is revealed

No questions, but the way in which the story is revealed is so complicated!

------------------------

Tears:
"Olivia's tears slowed fast"

Fainting:
"...her complexion faded and she fainted"

Ends on page 336 with "success of his constant aim."

Of course!!

Sweetie, if you're looking for "simple" and "straightforward", you've come to the wrong genre! :D

(You can understand how detective fiction eventually evolved out of this sort of writing, can't you?)

Skipping tonight. I'll continue tomorrow.

My friend recently returned from Italy. We were talking about the trees of Italy...and she knew all of them that I posted here on this thread - even the plane-tree. She was in Sicily, Naples, and Rome.

One of the "gifts" she brought me back was a piece of lava from Mount Etna! This is a personal joke as we have a history of climbing another volcano together. :)

Volume II, Chapter X
...in which the Marchesa changes her mind

162. "...she became as anxious to promote the marriage of Vivaldi and Ellena as she had ever been to prevent it"

How convenient for the end of this story!

-------------------------
Tears:
"weeping and exclaiming"
"tears streamed down his cheek"
"shed bitter tears of sorrow and remorse"

Melancholy Count - 37
"his situation in a melancholy and terrible prison"

Ends on page 339 with "become reconciled to himself."

I haven't been to Europe, but I have been all over the volcanoes of Hawaii - amazing!

Volume II, Chapter X

162. Silly girl - you don't think it's going to be THAT simple, do you?? :D

162. I'll wait and see! :D

That is an EXCELLENT idea!!

LOL!!

Volume II, Chapter XI, Part I...
...in which Schedoni begins his confession

163. "...against the peace of a young woman...he has basely trasduced"

Which means...?

164. "Ellena had been calumniated..."

What does that mean?

---------------------

Ends on page 346 with "of her family."

Volume II, Chapter XI, Part I

163. & 164. Both of these words mean essentially the same thing, that Ellena has been humilated and/or had her reputation damaged by false and malicious accusations. This of course refers right back to beginning of the novel, when someone (we now know it was Father Nicola) told the Marchese that Ellena was Vivaldi's mistress.

(Though we remember, too, that Ellena herself never knew these things had been said.)

Volume III, Chapter XI, Part II
...in which Schedoni and Nicola die

165. "his glance seemed suddenly impowered with the destructive fascination attributed to that of the basilisk"

What is that?

167. Did Schedoni die because the antidote to the poison was not powerful enough to keep him alive?

-----------------------

Ends on page 353 with "of his friend."

Volume II, Chapter XI, Part II

165. A basilisk is a mythological reptile. There are varying accounts of what it is, and what is is supposed to look like, but the important point* is that if it you looked in its eyes you would be unable to look away, and the gaze would be fatal to you. Therefore to compare something or someone to a basilisk is to say that there was something horrible, but you couldn't turn away. In this case the comparison is more literal, as it is Shedoni's eyes that are being compared to the basilisk's eyes.

(*Also, its blood was venomous.)

168. Or the wrong one, or administered too late. Probably the latter.

It's Mrs. Radcliffe's birthday today - Happy 250th, Ann!

Lovely, Kerry - thank you!!

>278 CDVicarage:

Let me add my birthday greetings as well! :)

Volume III, Chapter XII
...in which Ellena and Vivaldi are married

169. What are lacqueys?

170. Are sequins a unit of currency?

----------------------------------------

Melancholy count - 39
"it was a melancholy journey to Vivaldi "
"every melancholy consideration"

Lots of Tears:
"he fell at his master's feet and wept"
"Again brought tears into Paolo's eyes; he smiled and wept, and sobbed"
"his tears and sobs returned"
"at length burst into tears"
"said Paolo sobbing"
"a convulsive sound from the anti-chamber betrayed the excess of emotion"
"Ellena wept"
"drew tears of tender joy and gratitude to her eyes"

Ends on page 359 with "O! giorno felíce!"

Volume III, Chapter XII

169. Also spelled "lackey" - manservants who wore livery or a uniform while performing their duties.

170. A sequin ("zecchino") was a gold coin.

There are a lot of O! giorno felice!-s going on; you'll have to be more specific! :D

The second one! ;)

Volume II, Chapter XIII
...in which Paolo gets to party! :)

171. "amidst the umbrageous landscape"

Meaning...?

THE END!

--------------------------------

Trees:
magnolia
flowering ash
cedrati
camellia
palm

I love the ending!

"O! giorno felíce!"


An eruption of Vesuvius seen from Portici, by Joseph Wright (ca. 1774-6)
Joseph Wright of Derby - Art collection of the Huntington Library in Pasadena, (Public domain)

Thank you so much, Liz, for sending me this book and providing me with such terrific instruction. This was great fun. I appreciate all you've done for me.

Volume III, Chapter XIII

171. Shady, or dappled with shade.

O! GIORNO FELICE!!!!

...and now you understand why I was asking which O! giorno felice! you meant! :D

LOL!

*Raises glass of Taurasi in celebration*

>288 lyzard:

Yeah. Now I know!!

*Raises glass of Taurasi in celebration*

Clink, clink! (sip, sip...)

:)

Thanks, Madeline and Liz, I've enjoyed this very much. What's next?

I'm pretty sure that Italian Mysteries by Francis Lathom is next, but let's take a small break before beginning anew. Liz, what's on your agenda now?

"O! giorno felíce!"

:)

I just released this book in the Little Free Library of Twinbrook (#7720) in Rockville, Maryl;and, along with a link to this tutored thread. I hope I get an interested taker! :D