The Sword

I noticed on the 'who comes here thread' there was a bit of discussion on who might get the sword. So, I thought that I would break that out into a new thread to sort of centralize people's ideas.

I think that the sword will go to someone that Harry hasn't met yet. Shiro said that Harry will know who will get it when he sees them...and that hasn't happened yet. I think that the visions of Murphy all Angelic have some different sort of meaning all together...a significance that we don't know yet.

There are also times when I think that it might go to Molly once she is a full fledged wizard.

I agree, if not Murph than a new character, Molly's an interesting thought. Hadn't occured to me. But it will still be a few years away? can the forces of 'good' have a third of their major arsenal lying unused for so long?

Is the style of the sword going to be important? Michael has a "normal" sword and he's a straightforward sort of person. Shiro was trickier, and the sword needs a different style?

What about Harry himself?

if the style of sword has anything to do with it then Harry would be a good fit for it. As he doesn't always go about things the normal way. It could be him...and he may not realize it yet. Harry can be a little slow sometimes after all....and we all know how resistant he can be.

Maybe we should consider the names of the swords, too. Michael has Amoracchius (love?); Shiro had Fidelacchius (faith? fidelity? loyalty?) And I can't remember what Sanya has and can't check because apparently I took that book back to the library. Could Harry wield Fidelacchius?

I don't know, its possible. But Harry has always had a problem with Faith. Remember all those conversations that he's had with Michael and that priest about it? They believe in him and that its only a matter of time before Harry accepts that Faith is something real. In some of the later books he seems to come around a little to the fact that there might be some greater power or purpose or something out there. But I don't think that he's ready to go all in with Michael that God exists and is a benevolent person.

I agree. That's why I don't think Harry is destined for the sword. I don't think he could be a Knight of the Cross.

But what about Sanya? Wasn't he an aethiest? I'm not sure about Harry getting the sword, but I think Jim is working on Harry's faith; I mean I think his faith is developing or changing.

Yes! Sanya is an atheist - I'd forgotten. (What is the name of his sword - does anyone remember?)

I think you're right, Katissima, that Harry's faith is evolving as the books continue. So I could well be wrong about the sword issue. But it's fun to analyze the problem anyway.

Sanya's sword is Esperacchius or Hope. And the swords are powered by faith. Not necessarily a Christen faith. Michael is catholic and his faith is in God. Shiro coming from the Japan was most likely a Buddist.

I was also wondering if a wizard can actually hold the sword? Michael, Sanya and Shiro had no magical powers just their deep beliefs. I think that being a wizard could potentially be a hindrance to a sword carrier since they could be distracted from their duty of a sword carrier by their duties as a wizard. Made worse in Harry's case in that he's also a Warden.

If he held the sword I think he'd just be pulled in one too many directions for him to be able to handle.

THinking more along these lines then maybe Murphy is still a candidate. Her faith was very strong in the begining and it showed in Harry's early site visions of her as the crisp glowing angelic-like creature. Most recently though after some bad experiences that she's had she's lost a lot of her faith and Harry now sees a more tarnished version then before. Perhaps she just needs to regain that faith in herself, her religion and her capabilities before she can get the sword.

And then of course there is that person that we haven't met....or another character that we haven't considered yet.

#10
In Death Masks didn't Shiro say he became a Baptist at some revival meeting? So I assumed he became a Christian.

At this point, I think it could be anyone. Anyone that Harry meets could be a candidate, even the ones that you wouldn't think could be a Knight. I mean, why not? Sanya was formerly allied with a Fallen but gave up the silver coin and became a Knight. Who would have thought a former enemy is now one of the team? Now he's fighting the very forces he was once a part of. So the person who gets Shiro's sword could be a character already introduced that we just didn't see coming, or else a totally new character.

Like Shiro told Harry, he'll just "know".

Interesting discussion.

I dont think Mruphy can be ruled out as the potential sword bearer. As mentioned Harry can sometimes be a little behind the curve ball when it comes to things right in front of him, and is adverse to putting his friends in any sort of danger. He saw Murphy before he got the sword so perhaps he has not made the connection yet.

I dont think the sword barer will be a wizard as the three we have met are not wizards. However we dont know about the other knights perhaps there is a wizard amongst them?

I thought the sword Harry had was Fidelacchius. I dont have my copies so cant check urgh.

Perhaps the sword is the key with Faith being a broad thing really it is implied faith in the lord but in terms of the sword it could be a complete faith in anything. Also maybe there is a key in the fact that only two swords were linked with Merlin himself?

I think it's already been said but the swords do correspond to faith (fidele), hope (espera) and love (amor). I'm guessing most people are familiar with the Bible verse (used at every other wedding I've been to) that says "and these three remain: faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love". Does that mean Michael's sword would be the strongest? (I've only read through Death Masks so don't give anything away in an answer.) ;) Also, thought it would be neat to point out that in that part of the Bible some scholars translate the Greek word for love to be "charity" - probably no coincidence that that's Michael's wife?

Michael has always shown great power in the books. Not just in the faith that he has for God but also in the love and faith that he has for his family and for Harry. He draws his strength from all of them. They give him purpose.

The swords names all have some connection with their bearer. Sanya lead a horrible and tortured life before taking up the sword. He doesn't believe in God but the Sword gives him hope that he'll overcome the sins of his past and hope for a better future.

Shiro had faith in all those around him and that things would find a way to work out. The next bearer of his sword will need to have strong faith in something in order to weild it I think. Be it a heavenly power or in something more tangible.

I agree faith seems to be the key element with the swords and it is very individualistic.

elbakerone that is interesting about the "love" connection with Michael but that certainly does explain a lot. Like Irish says Michaels capacity to love totally and completely those around him seems to give him strength.

I know its been discussed and partially dismissed but I would like to see Murphy get the sword as her belief in justice would fit the faith bill.

I think this discussion needs to come back in the light of Small Favor. Therefore, spoilers:

I'm still not entirely sure that we can rule out Murphy. After all, we have seen now that she *could* wield the sword; she just chooses not to take it. If free will allows potential knights to turn down the "job offer," then presumably she'd also be able to change her mind. Harry remarks that it seems to be all about choice, and from what we've seen a fair amount of what the knights are about is multiple chances, too.

Since Harry's apparently on to something with the knights being descended from kings, that also suggest's Molly as a good candidate. If her father's descended from Charlemagne, then she is too. Granted, we didn't know anything about the Carpenter family tree until Harry gave Molly that homework, so there could be other characters we have already met who fit the bill, too. We just know for a fact that she does.

It could be Charity, but it doesn't seem to feel quite right to me. I think she's certainly qualified (excepting that we don't know about the descended from kings part or if that's a genuine requirement), but I have a hard time picturing Michael out of commission, the oldest of their children an apprentice wizard, and Charity bearing one of the swords. It seems like *somebody* in the family needs to be focused on holding down the home front when things start falling to pieces like they do on a fairly regular basis, and I don't see Molly doing that while she's still in training. Maybe if Michael recovers enough to fill that role, or once Molly is a full fledged wizard (provided that one of them can be spared from the center of confrontations), or when one of the children besides Molly is ready to step up.

Or as others have said, it could be somebody we haven't met yet. I sort of think that one of the swords should find a bearer soon, though.

I don't really see Molly as the one taking up the sword. I don't think that she has the required amount of faith needed plus she is a wizard in training. I think that her magical duties would sometimes conflict with the duties of being a swordbearer. But she does have many brothers and sisters and I think that its entirely possible that one of them could pick up the sword for his/her father.

They also need to find owners for the swords soon. Sanya can't handle it all on his own. He needs the help of the trinity.

Also Molly is like Harry touched by darkness I guess I would call it. They dabbled (with good intentions) in the dark arts and as that seems to rule Harry out I would assume Molly too. But then again Sanya (is that the russian?) was a bad egg too previously but I cant remember if he was wizard before he was taken by the denarians. So kinda argued against my own point there.

Sanya wasn't a wizard beforehand, but he was a denarian.

Maybe it is just being a wizard with a dark side rules you out? But you would think being a denarian would be top off the dark side list...although the order is all about saving the souls so a soul saved from the denarians would be a big feather in the cap.

I pretty much agree with a lot of what's thrown around out here. Murphy seems like a logical choice, since EVERYONE seems to want her to, including Sanya. Thus, she can be ruled out :-P

Harry seems like a logical choice as well - he's fighting alongside the knights as it is, now has two spots to fill (maybe, we'll see how things are in Turn Coat), and lest we forget, he's a friggin Warden! He still doesn't have a sword yet, and according to Luccio, her current body's not powerful enough to make him one, so he's the only Senior Grey Coat sans blade.

But Harry has some other skills he's adding to his arsenal, so maybe not.

Know who I want to have it? Thomas. Yup, he's a good guy, fights for a love that is lethal to him, has proven himself numerous times, and oh, yeah, weilds a sword already. Good thing I'm not an author, because I'd totally derail a series tha way ;)

Whomever it is, I hope we find out soon. It's been a few novels now that it's been sitting in his apartment, and they were pressing hardcore on the topic in Small Favor.

Having finally read Small favour i think Murphy does take it. The quote at the end - the reward for well done work is more work - impies that fidd has passed on, Murphy being the only candidate, but now Harry has a new sword to home.

hmm interesting theory.

Well toss my idea out the window, folks! :-D

"how did YOU get a Foo dog, and WHY did they let you keep it?" - made me laugh so hard