So disappointed in Bookmooch

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So disappointed in Bookmooch

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1Proserpinegreen
Ene 30, 2013, 4:10 am



I was a keen bookmooch member up until a couple of years ago. I left the site as I found over time, there were less and less books that I wanted - and less and less people willing to send them to me. I decided, after not getting a hit on my wishlist - that I would cancel my account. When I cancelled my account had given out 122 books and mooched 152. I had all but 1 book arrive at its destination and had great feedback. My point imbalance was as it was when I stopped using the account - I spent my remaining points and left, as anyone would do.

Recently, I looked on the site and noticed that there is now 3 points for international - which was music to my ears, as I loved bookmooch when it worked. As I cancelled my account back then and assumed it was dead, I started a new one. I immediately put books on my inventory and sent one to the US. When I went to add more books to my inventory a couple of days ago the site said my account was closed. I contacted support to ask what was going on and had a reply saying that I cannot have two accounts and that if I want to use bookmooch then I have to use my old account. I was pretty happy about that - I got to keep the good feedback, so it was all ok. As I said - I thought my old account was gone, vanished, cancelled......(generally what cancelled means!) - and I accepted that I could have reopened my old account, but honestly didnt even think of trying.

Then I noticed that the points that I had just earned had not been transferred, nor the books I had added to my inventory. When I asked if the points were going to be transferred - I got the rudest, most insulting email from support - see below.

"It is very clearly against the policy of this site and every other to not allow multiple accounts, most sites will simply permanently block you, if not investigate you for fraud, for even trying. We will not be adding any points, you have taken far more than given, and are being given a second chance in spite of your apparent lack of intent to rectify this imbalance by committing to trading equally from now on -- you were a drain on the community in the past, we ask you not do so in future, but send as many as you take."

Firstly - I know a bit about the law ;-) and someone cannot commit fraud if it is proven that the intent was to abide by the policies of the organisation in regards to personal or professional gain.....I had one account - I was adding books to my inventory - I sent a book to the US. I did not try to re-use my old account because it had been cancelled (there is that word again!) and I had not used my points. I was committing to rectifying the imbalance to my points by adding books into my inventory - and yeah - had not used my points! ( I had been on the site for about three weeks) and yet I was.....a drain on the community and am now.....apparently lacking to rectify this imbalance?

I am just so disappointed in this site - what on earth happened to cause them to treat anyone this way!

2Amtep
Ene 30, 2013, 6:20 am

Wow. I'd have a lot to say about this but I just can't get past the obvious falsehood in their first sentence. "this site and every other"? I bet they never even looked.

- Google, for example, is happy to let you have multiple accounts. They went to considerable effort to make sure Android supports it, and their documentation describes obvious use cases like having separate work and personal accounts.
- The online games I play the most (Kingdom of Loathing and Book of Heroes) are fine with having multiple accounts as long as you don't use them to cheat.
- My hosting service supports multiple accounts and documents how to move domains between them.

Most sites simply don't care whether you have zero, one or many accounts. It's rare for it to be even mentioned when signing up.

This thing they say absolutely doesn't exist is really rather common.

Then there's the "this site" part. John Buckman has two accounts, one for his home in California and one for his home in London, and he's recommended this solution to others who have multiple places with books. Furthermore, the Bookmooch terms of service say nothing about having only one account. There's a whole list of rules about account registration and the thing that is allegedly "clearly against the policy" is not one of them.

3Jarandel
Ene 30, 2013, 7:04 am

Yes that is odd, I have seen a few people who apparently needed to open a second BM account and could do so without trouble as long as the older one was in good standing, and maybe they got in touch with the site team first.

Did your last bout of mooching before leaving (and the later adjustments to make int'l mooching now cost as much for ratio as it cost in points) put the old account at such a bad ratio that the new one would look like an attempt to evade that ?

4auntmarge64
Ene 30, 2013, 8:00 am

Wow, they were about as rude as possible without using curse words.

5HarryMacDonald
Ene 30, 2013, 9:16 am

Hey, sisters and brothers (and Aunts!), there are more than a few of us who use LT as a book-exchange. Who needs all the points and the argle-bargle? The mechanism isn't perfect for swapping -- indeed, it's far from perfect for cataloguing! -- but it does open-up some doors, besides which you can meet some very interesting people. Best to yezz, -- Goddard

6Rise
Editado: Ene 30, 2013, 9:25 am

BM is weak in the "customer service" and support department. This isn't the first report of a rude reply from an admin.

7Proserpinegreen
Ene 30, 2013, 10:26 am

I left the site before the 3 point mooch came in - so I think if they work it out on that, its a bit unfair. As I said, I cleared my points before I left and the last thing I was going to do was send more books to keep my ratio looking good! The wording when cancelling an account is - "abandon your bookmooch account forever" - so what happens if you change your mind? Most people would start a new account, especially when it is 2-3 years ago.

I was just blindsided by how rude this person was - no sense of diplomacy! If that is your customer service person - wow!

Obviously there is not a lot of love for the site out there anymore - such a pity...

8RidgewayGirl
Ene 30, 2013, 11:47 am

I'm sorry that happened to you. There does seem to be at least one admin who is misusing their power -- including not returning emails or mailing books mooched from them -- and unfortunately this puts the entire site in a bad light. There are some fantastic, patient and responsive admins and one bad egg. I'm sorry you got that guy. I've mooched more than I've sent and have never been told I'm a bad member.

9rainbowgirl28
Ene 30, 2013, 10:21 pm

I'm sorry you got such a rude response from an admin :( I think it was inappropriate.

10Proserpinegreen
Editado: Ene 31, 2013, 10:50 am

I still havent got my points back - but the last email I received from bookmooch (below) got me thinking.....

Re-read our last notice,We did not accuse you of fraud, just pointed out that this is the general perception of all sites that all books to be traded or sold when someone opens more than one account.If we thought you intended fraud we clearly would not have re-opened your original account, as we did.Throughout out history, when someone leaves and decided to come back, they, of course, send us a note asking if we can then re-open their account.It has been blatantly obvious to these people that our feedback system and ratio limits would mean nothing if people could just close one account and open another.We cannot imagine why this would not have occurred to you. In your case, while your feedback was average, your ratio limit was much worse than most people, you soon would have been prohibited from mooching as you had taken so much more than sent. People spent far more to send you books, as you took twice as many books from other countries as you sent. You seem intent to continue this pattern of taking much more than you give, which cannot be allowed -- our service could not possibly work if even a minority of people approach the service in the way you did. No points have been taken from you, we have noted the fact you have sent a couple more books on the second account, but you are still very much in debt to our community as they spent so much more sending books to you than you to them.

I also had another look at my ratio - I would appreciate it if someone can explain this to me as the last time I was on bookmooch (when all of the below mooches were created) - the system was 1 point per mooch - international or domestic. Also - why is my feedback 'average' when it is the same as the number of books sent? - +122

Books received
In the mail: 0
Not yet sent to you: 0
Acknowledged as received: 152
Adjustment for international mooches: 232 (116 books)
Total: 384

Books given
To send: 0
Sent: 0
Sent and acknowledged: 122
Total books sent: 122

Bonus for international books: 110 (55 books)
Total: 232

Mooch percentage: 384 / 232 = 165.52%
Mooch ratio: 1.66:1

11macsbrains
Ene 31, 2013, 11:49 am

>10 Proserpinegreen: It's been a while, so I may not be remembering correctly, but back when the points change happened from 2 to 3, the 'weight' of international mooching went up too. You were already given a ratio bonus for mailing internationally, but then a counterbalance for receiving internationally was put in place.

I had drawn this diagram at the time to illustrate how if you received any international mooches your ratio would increase:


Looking at it now I don't know why I multiplied by 3, as it's obvious from your numbers (and my own when I just went to check them) that it's by 2, but the multiplier is irrelevant; the process is the same. So because you received internationally more than you sent internationally, your ratio rose dramatically, and would continue to rise faster than any other mooching combination. It was brought up that this was a big issue for some countries where, logistically, there were some domestic mooches, but most were international and this deterrent to international mooching would be felt more greatly.

All that aside, I think the admin's tone was uncalled for, and their argument shows a lack of understanding of the complexities (and math) of international trading. For one thing, the value of a point is not fixed, and for me in the U.S. it may be $2.50 and for someone in Canada, maybe it's $8.00 or more; and if I put 15 books in a box and spend $5.00 to ship it across the street at $0.33 per point, or if I put one heavy book in a mailer to Mongolia for $20.00 at $6.67 per point how does that translate? And secondly, nobody understands percentages. If you were to mail out 5 books tomorrow, and they all went internationally, then your ratio would go down to 1.38%. If I tried to drop my mooch ratio like that it would certainly require a lot more than 5 books, I can tell you that much. (I don't feel like calculating it.)

So, really, I'd be more annoyed that those transactions weren't going on my old account for the ratio bonus rather than for the points. And really, I think a good number of us here, myself included, have more books received than sent due to all of the above price reasons and that I know I don't always record all the books I send out (extras, freebies, etc.) And to balance, there really are some people out there who send and don't mooch. I've seen several. (Not sure I understand it, but there you go.)

12Jarandel
Ene 31, 2013, 12:10 pm

>10 Proserpinegreen: You sent 122 books, 67 local and 55 int'l, for a outbound "value" of 67 + 55*3 = 232.

You received 152 books, 36 local mooches and 116 int'l ones. Inbound "value" 36 + 116*3 = 384.

Due to the hike aimed at discouraging excessive imbalance in int'l requests vs sendings, your ratio is now 384/232=1.66 when it was simply a tad on the "meh" side (152/122=1.24) when you left after spending your points.
While an explanation of the changes and encouraging you to work toward greater balance and/or an overall larger number of sent books to get back in the green may have been appropriate, jumping on you for changes occurred while you were away seems a bit harsh.

Can't comment much about the feedback as you're not showing us the figure and I don't know your BM account, but apparently according to your correspondent, while all your sent books did arrive a non negligible part of the people you interacted with may have left neutral or negative feedback ?

13Amtep
Ene 31, 2013, 12:33 pm

Don't let them bully you about the ratio. The original system was explicitly set up to encourage international sending by giving extra points for it, which naturally meant that people who mostly traded internationally would receive more books than they sent. It was supposed to work that way. It was the reward for international sending.

Later, the rules were changed retroactively to eliminate this subsidy of international sending. This is not your fault. You have a right to use the points you earned, and you're not in debt to anyone for them.

Really, the admin's tone is inexcusable even in the second message.

14Jarandel
Ene 31, 2013, 12:49 pm

Well, international sending still receives the same benefits as before, the major change comes in for people who request(ed) more internationally than they sent.

15RidgewayGirl
Ene 31, 2013, 1:32 pm

What Amtep said.

Many of us active at the time of the change in the way ratios were calculated were suddenly faced with having points to spend but a terrible points ratio. Overnight we'd gone from being upstanding members of a community to horrible moochers. It is what it is. Some people left over it. I decided to stay, but my enthusiasm was certainly gone and I'm careful to keep the number of points I have low, meaning that I list and send many fewer books. There's still a fair number of books on the site, but the numbers are decreasing.

16rainbowgirl28
Feb 1, 2013, 8:23 am

The admin is still being rude in the way they are handling things.

17Proserpinegreen
Feb 1, 2013, 7:56 pm

I have decided to close my account. After not getting an answer from four emails to the support person who was, not only rude, but incredibly unhelpful, I was sent an email by another support person who basically told me the same thing (still no response about my points or transferring the pending book to my account) however was more polite. I then noticed that they have posted a statement on my account which annoyingly, is full of points that are inaccurate and they have never raised with me before - like the fact that two complaints had been lodged against my account in 2009 just before it was closed. I was never emailed about this at the time, there is nothing on my feedback - no details about what the complaints were about. If this was truly the case, why let me reopen the old account in the first place!?! In the four emails from the previous support person, this was never mentioned, just - repeatedly - that my ratio was bad. If it really happened - wouldnt they have pointed this out earlier in the interest of making a point?

There was also a very innaccurate statement about the emails I have shared with the previous support person - making it sound like we were both being 'inpolite'. Wow - I dont know how much more polite, direct and clear I could have been with them! I contacted them originally to ask why my account was closed, I accepted the re-opening of my old account and asked whether my points would transfer over - after 4 emails asking that very question, I did not get an answer - but received a lot of attitude for asking!

Also written was the fact that they are witholding the points earned on my account until the book arrives. Not once was this explained to me - I had to read it on my account. This is all very well - however, my 'pending' book sent was never added to the old reopened account, the new account was closed and the 1.66 ratio was not adjusted.

I closed my account because I came to the realisation - what is the point of all this? There is no guarantee that I will get the points 'eventually' as I have to contact support again to have the same conversation. The points are attached to the new account I opened, as is the 'pending' book and corrected ratio. Support would, no doubt, again give me the argument that I have a terrible ratio, so I would have to send out more international books to 'correct' it - and still no guarantee that the points would not be witheld again. After all of that, there is no guarantee that I would find the books that I actually wanted here in Australia 'if' I actually got any points back! I have read a few accounts now that say that the number of books are decreasing on the site and while a few people will send from overseas - I will be limited by what I can find while maintaining the ratio. It was well and truly a 'throw the hands up in the air' moment.

In the last email, they explained that the first support person was a volunteer that was new and works as a nurse during the day and volunteers at night. She also highlighted that I should be understanding as nobody is paid at bookmooch - not even the owner. While I appreciate this, there is no place for directly calling someone a 'drain on the community' for a ratio imbalance created while the account was closed for four years!

Frustrating...at least I sent one book out into the community - and hopefully something is learned about customer service at bookmooch over this....

18Rise
Feb 2, 2013, 2:25 am

Sorry you have to leave. I hope BM will think about your case in the future so as to prevent the same thing happening again. They always gave that excuse that all admins are volunteers and nobody is paid for volunteering whenever rude replies from an admin get shared in LT. I hope they will choose their admins and volunteers carefully and that they will increase the number of volunteers who will be able to promptly reply to queries and problems. As it stands now, members get frustrated for waiting a long time before somebody replies to their email. I also hope that they will be transparent in specifying the violation of a member from the outset (point ratio, complaints from other members, etc.).

19joannasephine
Feb 2, 2013, 3:10 am

Really sorry you've had so much crap from them. I used to love BookMooch. When the new regulations regarding international points came in, a lot of us did everything we could think of to try and persuade Buckman that he was making a huge mistake. I got some abuse from him personally, which was utterly misdirected (there were people accusing him of theft; I just repeated his own words back to him with a certain amount of passionate pleading). But there's no doubt the entire culture and mood of the place has changed, for international members at least.

20Amtep
Feb 2, 2013, 5:14 am

Well... reading this was the last straw for me. I've been unhappy with Bookmooch for a while now, but I stayed in hopes of things getting better. But if the admins treat members this badly and then close ranks in response to criticism, then I know it's rotted beyond hope of recovery. I gave my remaining points to charity and closed my account too.

21gimboid13
Feb 2, 2013, 12:07 pm

The 'volunteer' status is no excuse. There are plenty of other websites run by volunteers that manage to moderate their volunteers' actions effectively. The lack of any kind of dispute resolution process and the fact that even mildly critical posts are routinely deleted from Bookmooch's forums indicates to me that Bookmooch sees no problems with its admins' actions.

After a some quite rude and unhelpful responses from admins over the last year or so I no longer regularly angel books from Australia and I now keep my points and inventory as low as possible. I'm seriously concerned about Bookmooch's future.

22Proserpinegreen
Feb 2, 2013, 10:37 pm

I got the email to say my posted book to the US arrived to its new owner today - the irony! at least I don't have to send yet another email asking for my points!

>21 gimboid13: There is quite a lot of negativity surrounding bookmooch on this forum and on the internet in general. It is such a pity that the international element is dwindling. I actually loved sending and receiving books internationally and didn't mind sending them knowing I would get some in return one day. I would always add a bookmark or postcard, invitation to a local art exhibition etc in each book I sent. Last year I read a mooched book that had been sitting on the shelf for a while (about 4 years!) and I found inside it a postcard from the US that I didn't find when I received it. Made my day!

23mene
Feb 3, 2013, 5:32 am

I'm trying to use up my points and not adding any new books anymore... I really enjoyed sending and receiving books on Bookmooch, but there are no more books on the site I want or are able to get (most people don't send international anymore). And I don't want to mooch books I don't want... Maybe my wishlist got too obscure for the books people are now adding to their inventories :P
I'll leave up the books I currently have in my inventory until my points are used up, then I'm planning to close my account.

24bookel
Feb 3, 2013, 6:59 pm

I'm not closing my account. On vacation setting is sufficient when not using bookmooch and the wish list is useful to keep books I don't list here just in case one day I want or come across them. I may want to use it again someday. For now most people I've mooched with aren't using the site at all or much. Nothing seems to be coming up on the wish list anymore since last year. Better off obtaining books from other places (see bookfinder.com for examples) or charity shops or libraries etc. Book saturation (plenty to read), increasing postage prices and increasing living costs means it is not affordable anymore. I still have one picture book The Plant Sitter and if anyone wants it just yell. I switched to thinner and lighter books so postage wouldn't be much. But when not on vacation no one was mooching not even wish listers.

My last domestic mooch did not work as the person did not put enough postage on the book (same for someone else) so mine didn't come. I had to wait a ridiculous time before marking lost. It should have arrived in only four days.

Had some great international mooches last year. Fact is they are three points each. I would have to send in order to receive so the number of books received is always going to be higher! if you now send you earned the right to use the points you just paid money for in sending. That person who responded forgot too that moochers also charity or give points to each other which further increases the number of mooches that can be made.

Most books I received and sent were international. When they were 2 points it was allowed and acceptable to mooch more than sent. The points were there and earned. Every single book I sent arrived safely. None lost. All positive feedback. Just luck there. Would I be considered a 'bad' moocher for following what was allowed? For having perfect feedback?

That response you received was unbelievably rude. Plus ignorant of postage costs. It often costs much more to send books from Australia than to here especially in bulk. I could send far less books for the same price to the USA than I could receive.

25rxtheresa
Feb 3, 2013, 8:12 pm

Try Changobooks, relatively new but wonderful administrator, international, very fair and wonderful people who swap. I thought after the abuse I got from an administrator 4 years ago accusing me of opening a second account (when I never had even heard of the site until I opened my account) was a thing of the past. I guess not. The person she said I was was someone in TN. I live in GA and have never in my life lived in TN. I agree because you are a volunteer doesn't give you carte blanche to be abusive.

26wester
Feb 4, 2013, 4:58 am

#25: Thank you for letting us know about changobooks.
All the other alternatives are USA only, so it's nice to have an alternative I can try out. It does need to grow a bit, though.

27bookel
Editado: Feb 4, 2013, 5:08 am

Haven't heard of that site until now. It sounds like a combination of bookmooch and PBS from the how it works page. Not being able to list a book with no ISBN could be limiting when a lot of older books don't have them? Does it have a workaround?

28rxtheresa
Feb 4, 2013, 12:34 pm

You're welcome. It does need to grow. I've been waiting to change my books to include international mailing until I saw what the US Postal rates were going to be. They just increased the price January 27th. I'll be doing that soon. I have had some great books sent to me internationally.

29brigneti
Editado: Feb 4, 2013, 3:21 pm

I'm terribly sorry about what happened... I think it's incredibly wrong that you were accused of having a "bad" ratio. It is a bit high, I get that they'd prefer that people reopen their accounts instead of opening new ones, but your ratio was definitely under 2:1 (the ratio limit) and they were rather rude about the whole thing. You'd have to mooch *27* international books in order to go over the limit...

A lot of people (myself included) who used to send and mooch internationally have high ratios because of the bonus points that we used to get. I tried to explain this when the retroactive changes on the ratio were announced, but I remembered that we were basically told that even if our ratios were a bit high, everthing would be fine as long as we were under 2:1.

Just in case anyone is interested, the logic behind this was:
-I send 2 books internationally, get 6 points - use them to mooch 6 books domestic: I have a 1:1 ratio
-I send 2 books internationally, get 6 points - use them to mooch 3 books international: I have a 1.5:1 ratio

If I mooched mostly internationally (because I'm in a country with few other users), I'd go close to a 1.5 ratio (but again, this was supposed to be OK).