The Trail Of The Serpent by Mary Elizabeth Braddon - lyzard tutoring SqueakyChu - Thread 2
Esto es una continuación del tema The Trail Of The Serpent by Mary Elizabeth Braddon - lyzard tutoring SqueakyChu.
Charlas75 Books Challenge for 2013
Únete a LibraryThing para publicar.
Este tema está marcado actualmente como "inactivo"—el último mensaje es de hace más de 90 días. Puedes reactivarlo escribiendo una respuesta.
1lyzard
Hello, all! Welcome to the continuation of Madeline's tutored read of The Trail Of The Serpent by Mary Elizabeth Braddon.
We shall be picking up here at the beginning of Book the Fourth.
***********************************************************
The characters of The Trail Of The Serpent:
Jabez North - an orphan, a charity case from the workhouse, a schoolteacher...and some other things
Dr Tappenden - the head of the school at which Jabez North is an usher
Miss Jane Tappenden - his daughter
Richard Marwood - a dissipated young man who has returned home repentant after wasting his fortune
Mrs Marwood - Richard's still-loving mother
Montague Harding - Richard's uncle, who has made a fortune in India
Joseph Peters - a policeman, dumb but not deaf
Sloshy - a "fondling", pulled from the river, and raised by Joe Peters
Kuppins - Sloshy's nursemaid
Jim Lomax - a poor man in ill-health
Lively Betty - his grandmother, a woman with a secret
Sillikens - a factory-girl in love with Jim
The Marquis de Cevennes - a French nobleman, guardian to his niece
Valerie de Cevennes - his half-Spanish niece, fabulously rich and beautiful
Gaston de Lancy - a young opera-singer recently risen to fame
Monsieur Blurosset - a chemist and experimenter with drugs who also tells fortunes
Augustus Darley - a doctor, and a friend of Richard Marwood; a member of the "Cheerful Cherokees"
Isabella Darley - his sister
Jim Stilson, aka The Left-Handed Smasher - a former prize-winning fighter, now the publican of "The Cherokee"
2SqueakyChu
Book the Fourth - Chapter 1
...in which we return to Richard Marwood
1. "Keep up your pecker."
What does that mean?
2. "...his matutinal visit to Richard's cell"
What does that word mean?
3. It seems more as if Richard is incarcerated in a prison than in a psychiatric facility (aka lunatic asylum). Why is he in solitary confinement?
4. Are there really royalty in that psychiatric facility as patients, or are they all people who only fancy themselves being someone else?
...in which we return to Richard Marwood
1. "Keep up your pecker."
What does that mean?
2. "...his matutinal visit to Richard's cell"
What does that word mean?
3. It seems more as if Richard is incarcerated in a prison than in a psychiatric facility (aka lunatic asylum). Why is he in solitary confinement?
4. Are there really royalty in that psychiatric facility as patients, or are they all people who only fancy themselves being someone else?
3lyzard
Book 4 Chapter 1
1. Not what it sounds like. :)
That's a more slang-ish way of saying what they do say at the end of the chapter, "Keep your spirits up."
2. Early morning.
3. Lunatic asylums were "one size fits all". Some of the incarcerated people have simply had a breakdown or are suffering delusions, but Richard (supposedly) is homicidal, so he has been kept in solitary confinement. They seem to treat him more kindly than he would have been treated in an actual prison (particularly with regards to the medical care) but solitary is solitary.
4. The latter. These are the non-dangerous delusional ones, who are given extra freedoms.
1. Not what it sounds like. :)
That's a more slang-ish way of saying what they do say at the end of the chapter, "Keep your spirits up."
2. Early morning.
3. Lunatic asylums were "one size fits all". Some of the incarcerated people have simply had a breakdown or are suffering delusions, but Richard (supposedly) is homicidal, so he has been kept in solitary confinement. They seem to treat him more kindly than he would have been treated in an actual prison (particularly with regards to the medical care) but solitary is solitary.
4. The latter. These are the non-dangerous delusional ones, who are given extra freedoms.
4SqueakyChu
More questions...
5. Why was Richard given a person to stay with him and watch him?
6. Do you suppose that the installation of Sloshy as Richard's "guardian" was rigged?
5. Why was Richard given a person to stay with him and watch him?
6. Do you suppose that the installation of Sloshy as Richard's "guardian" was rigged?
5lyzard
5. Patients who were classified as dangerous were supposed to be kept under observation. The boy generally wouldn't spend all his time in Richard's cell, but check on him regularly as well as bringing him his meals etc. Sloshy chooses to do so, for obvious reasons.
6. Depends what you mean by rigged. The first boy wasn't lured away from his job (we learn that presently). More accurately, I would say that the first boy's departure is only the second bit of good luck Richard has had in the last eight years.
6. Depends what you mean by rigged. The first boy wasn't lured away from his job (we learn that presently). More accurately, I would say that the first boy's departure is only the second bit of good luck Richard has had in the last eight years.
6SqueakyChu
Sorry. I'm not reading tonight. I'm working on my business taxes . I'll try again tomorrow,
8SqueakyChu
Book the Fourth - Chapter 2
...in which we meet Gus Darley
1. Help me with vocabulary:
a. "...with a very short doublet"
b. "...with a duster for a sail"
2. Why is Venice referred to as the "city of winged horses"?
3. What is a cutaway coat?
4. Is Gus Darley a doctor, a pharmacist, or both?
5. I guess that Gus Darley and Joseph Peters are pretending to be going eel fishing, but they are probably going to be sneaking Richard Marwood out of prison.
------------
Request:
Could you move our character list to the top of this thread?
Thanks!
...in which we meet Gus Darley
1. Help me with vocabulary:
a. "...with a very short doublet"
b. "...with a duster for a sail"
2. Why is Venice referred to as the "city of winged horses"?
3. What is a cutaway coat?
4. Is Gus Darley a doctor, a pharmacist, or both?
5. I guess that Gus Darley and Joseph Peters are pretending to be going eel fishing, but they are probably going to be sneaking Richard Marwood out of prison.
------------
Request:
Could you move our character list to the top of this thread?
Thanks!
9lyzard
Book 4 Chapter 2
1a. A doublet was a man's tight-fitting jacket, which was worn across Europe for about two hundred years, into the 17th century. It's an outfit commonly associated with traditional "romantic" figures.
This is a picture of King Charles I wearing one (it's easier than describing it!):
1b. You don't DUST in America!? I'm emigrating!! :)
The child in this passage has made a makeshift boat out of a wooden tub, and it literally has a dusting-cloth for a sail.
2. I've never actually heard that but it may have been a contemporary nickname. Or perhaps there was an association of Venice with Pegasus?
3. Again with the sartorial questions! - it was a man's light daytime coat that was open and "cut back" from the waist, and so could not be buttoned shut. It was developed to be worn on horseback but was generally fashionable from about 1850 onwards (and we are now in 1850, remember!). The alternative was the more formal frock coat, which reached to the knees and closed down the front.
4. He's a doctor, but in the 19th century the medical profession was enormously different from how how it is today. Most doctors made up their own medicines and drugs - as did the doctor who called on Jim in Blind Peter, who got Sillikens to pick up a tonic from his surgery. Many doctors made a better income from this aspect of their business than in dealing with the sick directly.
5. Well, I'm pretty sure they're not really interested in eels... :)
I've moved the character list - which I meant to do; thank you for the reminder! - and updated it.
1a. A doublet was a man's tight-fitting jacket, which was worn across Europe for about two hundred years, into the 17th century. It's an outfit commonly associated with traditional "romantic" figures.
This is a picture of King Charles I wearing one (it's easier than describing it!):
1b. You don't DUST in America!? I'm emigrating!! :)
The child in this passage has made a makeshift boat out of a wooden tub, and it literally has a dusting-cloth for a sail.
2. I've never actually heard that but it may have been a contemporary nickname. Or perhaps there was an association of Venice with Pegasus?
3. Again with the sartorial questions! - it was a man's light daytime coat that was open and "cut back" from the waist, and so could not be buttoned shut. It was developed to be worn on horseback but was generally fashionable from about 1850 onwards (and we are now in 1850, remember!). The alternative was the more formal frock coat, which reached to the knees and closed down the front.
4. He's a doctor, but in the 19th century the medical profession was enormously different from how how it is today. Most doctors made up their own medicines and drugs - as did the doctor who called on Jim in Blind Peter, who got Sillikens to pick up a tonic from his surgery. Many doctors made a better income from this aspect of their business than in dealing with the sick directly.
5. Well, I'm pretty sure they're not really interested in eels... :)
I've moved the character list - which I meant to do; thank you for the reminder! - and updated it.
10SqueakyChu
1. That doublet looks pretty uncomfortable!
2. We dust, but we use dust cloths, not "dusters". Dusters used to mean something like house-coats. I was imagining a dress for a sail!
4. My dad used to have a doctor whose brother was a pharmacist. They kept it all in the family!
5. Hey! I once caught an eel when fishing in the Chesapeake Bay, but I didn't keep it because they're not kosher. I did taste eel meat when I was a kid, thought.
thanks for the updated character list.
2. We dust, but we use dust cloths, not "dusters". Dusters used to mean something like house-coats. I was imagining a dress for a sail!
4. My dad used to have a doctor whose brother was a pharmacist. They kept it all in the family!
5. Hey! I once caught an eel when fishing in the Chesapeake Bay, but I didn't keep it because they're not kosher. I did taste eel meat when I was a kid, thought.
thanks for the updated character list.
11lyzard
We say "duster" here, too.
(I guess the emigration's off!)
I've had smoked eel. I'm not sure I'd care to eat anything that came out of the Sloshy, though. :)
(I guess the emigration's off!)
I've had smoked eel. I'm not sure I'd care to eat anything that came out of the Sloshy, though. :)
12SqueakyChu
Yeah. The Sloshy is probably worse than the Chesapeake Bay...but not by much, I'd bet!
13CDVicarage
I think the 'winged horses' refers to the statues on a column in St Mark's Square - of winged horses.
ETA: It's the winged lion on the column, the horses, which aren't winged, are on the front of St Mark's Basilica, but it was my first thought...
ETA: It's the winged lion on the column, the horses, which aren't winged, are on the front of St Mark's Basilica, but it was my first thought...
14gennyt
The winged horse may be a mistake or conflation of two images. As Kerry mentioned, there is a well known winged lion on a column in St Mark's Square, in fact the winged lion which is the symbol of St Mark is found everywhere in Venice and is also a symbol of the city. But the horses on the front of St Mark's Basilica are also well known and could have got muddled in the author's mind, perhaps.
15lyzard
THAT, on the other hand, does rings some bells. It may have been Braddon's confusion or perhaps a joke on the Sloppertonian in question?
Thank you, ladies!
(And nice to know you're still out there!)
Thank you, ladies!
(And nice to know you're still out there!)
16gennyt
Yes, still following along with interest. I don't have the text, and am not worrying about spoilers because the kind of conversation on here doesn't necessarily give the complete plot away, and the plot details that are mentioned I won't remember anyway probably - but I enjoy seeing what questions Madeline asks and the answers Liz gives. Some things that I know and take for granted (being English and/or having read more of this period of writing), and some things I only know very vaguely or have guessed at with varying degrees of accuracy, so I definitely am learning new stuff too.
17SqueakyChu
Book the Fourth - Chapter 3
...in which Richard Marwood escapes from the asylum
1. I found the conversation of the asylum inmates really annoying. :(
2. Help with vocabulary, please:
a. "...as if in a wild imprecation
b. "...were voted rather recherché than otherwise"
d. jackanapes
e. "...sharp plash" ... a typo for splash, maybe?
3. I love the description of the wild and crazy plants in the asylum gardens.
-------------
A quote I like:
"Who can tell whether their folly may not perhaps be better than our wisdom?"
...in which Richard Marwood escapes from the asylum
1. I found the conversation of the asylum inmates really annoying. :(
2. Help with vocabulary, please:
a. "...as if in a wild imprecation
b. "...were voted rather recherché than otherwise"
d. jackanapes
e. "...sharp plash" ... a typo for splash, maybe?
3. I love the description of the wild and crazy plants in the asylum gardens.
-------------
A quote I like:
"Who can tell whether their folly may not perhaps be better than our wisdom?"
18lyzard
Book 4 Chaper 3
1. Well, they are MAD, after all! Most of them. :)
2a. A curse spoken out loud.
2b. "Recherché" is a French word that strictly means "sought after" or "desirable". It was adopted as a term in fashionable English circles where it was used to mean "elegant".
2c. An impertinent or ill-mannered young man.
2d. No, plash is slightly different - it means to do something to cause a splash.
3. Yes, there's some clever writing in this chapter.
1. Well, they are MAD, after all! Most of them. :)
2a. A curse spoken out loud.
2b. "Recherché" is a French word that strictly means "sought after" or "desirable". It was adopted as a term in fashionable English circles where it was used to mean "elegant".
2c. An impertinent or ill-mannered young man.
2d. No, plash is slightly different - it means to do something to cause a splash.
3. Yes, there's some clever writing in this chapter.
19lyzard
Ahem:
She's all my fancy painted her,
She's lovely, she's divine ;
But her heart it is another's,
She never can be mine.
Yet loved I as man never loved,
A love without decay ;—
Oh ! my heart—my heart is breaking,
For the love of Alice Gray.
Her dark brown hair is braided o'er,
A brow of spotless white ;
Her soft blue eye now languishes—
Now flashes with delight.—
The hair is braided not for me,
The eye is turn'd away ;
Yet my heart—my heart is breaking
For the love of Alice Gray.
I've sunk beneath the summer's sun,
And trembled in the blast ;
But my pilgrimage is nearly done,
The weary conflict's past.
And when the green sod wraps my grave,
May Pity haply say,
" Oh ! his heart—his heart was broken,
For the love of Alice Gray.
She's all my fancy painted her,
She's lovely, she's divine ;
But her heart it is another's,
She never can be mine.
Yet loved I as man never loved,
A love without decay ;—
Oh ! my heart—my heart is breaking,
For the love of Alice Gray.
Her dark brown hair is braided o'er,
A brow of spotless white ;
Her soft blue eye now languishes—
Now flashes with delight.—
The hair is braided not for me,
The eye is turn'd away ;
Yet my heart—my heart is breaking
For the love of Alice Gray.
I've sunk beneath the summer's sun,
And trembled in the blast ;
But my pilgrimage is nearly done,
The weary conflict's past.
And when the green sod wraps my grave,
May Pity haply say,
" Oh ! his heart—his heart was broken,
For the love of Alice Gray.
20SqueakyChu
I did see the reference to Alice Gray. What am I supposed to know about her?
One of the things I find difficult about this book is the reference to historical people, many, if not most, of whom are quite notable. However, I'm not at all interested in them. I'm more interested in the characters of this story, and I find all of these outside references distracting. I read the footnotes ate the back of the book, but then I immediately forget all of the people whom they are describing. I am assuming that this author's readership might have generally been more interested in them.
I had to pause at the Muffin Man song, though, because my son and I like to sing that to my daughter-in-law. Her maiden name was Drury! :)
One of the things I find difficult about this book is the reference to historical people, many, if not most, of whom are quite notable. However, I'm not at all interested in them. I'm more interested in the characters of this story, and I find all of these outside references distracting. I read the footnotes ate the back of the book, but then I immediately forget all of the people whom they are describing. I am assuming that this author's readership might have generally been more interested in them.
I had to pause at the Muffin Man song, though, because my son and I like to sing that to my daughter-in-law. Her maiden name was Drury! :)
21lyzard
Nothing - only that this was a real song, which was popular in the first half of the 19th century. I just enjoy the way its use as a signal is handled in the text:
The gentleman who couldn't succeed in winning the affections of Miss Gray was evidently close to the wall now...
The references are all to prominent figures in English history who Braddon's readers would have been very familiar with - kings and queens and prime ministers and generals, for the most part.
The only ones directly relevant are those associated with Napoleon, like Sir Hudson Lowe and Lord Castlereagh, since Richard (who's supposed to think he is Napoleon) has to stay on his toes and respond correctly when there's a reference to one of them, in order to keep in character.
Heh! Kings and queens mean nothing, but we DO know the Muffin-Man! There'a lesson in humility for you! :)
Of course, that rhyme had a recent revival in one of the Shrek movies, too.
The gentleman who couldn't succeed in winning the affections of Miss Gray was evidently close to the wall now...
The references are all to prominent figures in English history who Braddon's readers would have been very familiar with - kings and queens and prime ministers and generals, for the most part.
The only ones directly relevant are those associated with Napoleon, like Sir Hudson Lowe and Lord Castlereagh, since Richard (who's supposed to think he is Napoleon) has to stay on his toes and respond correctly when there's a reference to one of them, in order to keep in character.
Heh! Kings and queens mean nothing, but we DO know the Muffin-Man! There'a lesson in humility for you! :)
Of course, that rhyme had a recent revival in one of the Shrek movies, too.
22SqueakyChu
I already warned you that I had more of a feeling for the commoner! :)
23SqueakyChu
Book the Fourth - Chapter 4
...in which Richard Marwood returns home to seek his uncle's murderer
I have no questions for this chapter.
...in which Richard Marwood returns home to seek his uncle's murderer
I have no questions for this chapter.
25SqueakyChu
It was a short chapter.
{{{Hugs}}}}
{{{Hugs}}}}
26SqueakyChu
Book the Fourth - Chapter 5
...in which Richard Marwood is brought back to his friends
1. Help me with the following vocabulary:
a. "...the Cherokee adjective 'dufling'"
b. "...till his chevelure resembles a turk's head broom"
c. "...were the sobriquet of a rival club"
d. "...to wrench off his knocker, and send it to him"
e. "...if a cove offend me"
2. Who were the Cheerful Cherokees? A club? A gang? Patrons of a pub called The Cherokee? Why Cherokees?
3. This is funny:
"The gentleman with the billiard-cue rapped their heads with that instrument to tranquillize (sic) them..."
...in which Richard Marwood is brought back to his friends
1. Help me with the following vocabulary:
a. "...the Cherokee adjective 'dufling'"
b. "...till his chevelure resembles a turk's head broom"
c. "...were the sobriquet of a rival club"
d. "...to wrench off his knocker, and send it to him"
e. "...if a cove offend me"
2. Who were the Cheerful Cherokees? A club? A gang? Patrons of a pub called The Cherokee? Why Cherokees?
3. This is funny:
"The gentleman with the billiard-cue rapped their heads with that instrument to tranquillize (sic) them..."
27lyzard
Book 4 Chapter 5
1a. I think that's a bit of Cherokee slang drawn from "duffer" - which is someone who plays sport (usually golf) poorly; a related expression is that someone "duffed" a shot. "Dufling" seems to be their way of criticising poor play at billiards.
1b. "Chevelure" is someone's hair; a "turk's head broom" is a brush with long bristles curved at the end (like a toilet brush).
1c. Nickname.
1d. A door-knocker; an example of the idiotic practical joking Richard used to be guilty of in his misspent youth.
1e. A chap. A man, if you prefer. :)
2. A club (gentlemen don't have "gangs") which has its headquarters at a pub called "The Cherokee" (its members are also patrons the pub). We don't know why Jim Stilson aka The Left-Handed Smasher called his pub "The Cherokee" in the first place, he just did.
I thought I could rely on the Cherokees and their slang for questions! :)
1a. I think that's a bit of Cherokee slang drawn from "duffer" - which is someone who plays sport (usually golf) poorly; a related expression is that someone "duffed" a shot. "Dufling" seems to be their way of criticising poor play at billiards.
1b. "Chevelure" is someone's hair; a "turk's head broom" is a brush with long bristles curved at the end (like a toilet brush).
1c. Nickname.
1d. A door-knocker; an example of the idiotic practical joking Richard used to be guilty of in his misspent youth.
1e. A chap. A man, if you prefer. :)
2. A club (gentlemen don't have "gangs") which has its headquarters at a pub called "The Cherokee" (its members are also patrons the pub). We don't know why Jim Stilson aka The Left-Handed Smasher called his pub "The Cherokee" in the first place, he just did.
I thought I could rely on the Cherokees and their slang for questions! :)
28Matke
Stopping by to say that I am still loving this. As mentioned above, a lot of this I can tease out, being more familiar with English Lit. of this era than Madeline, but sometimes my guesses/conjectures are considerably off the mark.
I laughed aloud at the phrase "Keep up your pecker." My brother, a career military man, would often encourage me to carry on by saying, "Keep your pecker up"--his meaning, although substantially the same, did vary somewhat...
I laughed aloud at the phrase "Keep up your pecker." My brother, a career military man, would often encourage me to carry on by saying, "Keep your pecker up"--his meaning, although substantially the same, did vary somewhat...
29lyzard
Hi, Gail - glad to hear you're still stopping by!
Yes, that's another of those phrases which has since taken on an alternative meaning...
Yes, that's another of those phrases which has since taken on an alternative meaning...
31SqueakyChu
Here it is...no chance to read tonight. I just got back from watching the Baltimore Ravens win the Super Bowl!!!!!!!!
I'll continue reading tomorrow.
I'll continue reading tomorrow.
33SqueakyChu
Thanks!
34SqueakyChu
Book the Fourth - Chapter 6 - Part 1*
...in which Richard Marwood sees his mother again
1. Why is Peters so devoted to Richard Marwood (before the mom hires Peters)?
2. "...now spent on a chimera"
...which is?
3. Is Bell considered "masculine" simply because of her "attainments"? What were her attainments, anyway?
4. What is a violoncello? A cello?
5. Why is Gus Darley addressed in this novel as "Mr." Darley and not as "Doctor" Darley?
6. "...into the emporium of the disciple of Eculapius (spelling corrrected)"
...which means what?
*Note: Part 1 ends with "...that ever the world had boasted" on page 240.
...in which Richard Marwood sees his mother again
1. Why is Peters so devoted to Richard Marwood (before the mom hires Peters)?
2. "...now spent on a chimera"
...which is?
3. Is Bell considered "masculine" simply because of her "attainments"? What were her attainments, anyway?
4. What is a violoncello? A cello?
5. Why is Gus Darley addressed in this novel as "Mr." Darley and not as "Doctor" Darley?
6. "...into the emporium of the disciple of Eculapius (spelling corrrected)"
...which means what?
*Note: Part 1 ends with "...that ever the world had boasted" on page 240.
35lyzard
Book 4 Chapter 6 Part 1
1. Partly out of sympathy for his situation, but mostly I think out of the ingrained detective instinct that can't bear to see a crime unresolved - and particularly not someone falsely accused while the guilty party gets away.
That, combined with the emotional fallout of saving Richard's life, but at the cost of eight years in solitary. After all, if you save someone's life you are supposed to be responsible for them afterwards. :)
2. A chimera (or chimaera) is a creature from Greek mythology, part lion, part goat, part snake. In general usage like this, however, a chimera is an impossible dream or a fantastic scheme of some kind. Richard's mother is afraid he's going to waste the rest of his life trying to find his uncle's killer.
3. Well, making up prescriptions and doing amateur dentistry, to name two. :)
Bell's masculinity probably lies in her lack of the usual female attainments. We gather that she hasn't had a normal female upbringing, nor much female companionship. Consequently she's probably more forthright in her speech and behaviour than well-brought-up young ladies were supposed to be.
4. Yes, violoncello is the full name of the instrument, abbreviated to cello as pianoforte was abbreviated to piano.
5. Because he's a gentleman despite being a doctor - "Mr" was a more honourable title at this time, when the medical profession was only just beginning to be considered respectable.
6. Esculapius (note spelling; also Aesculapius) was the Latin god of medicine; a "disciple of Esculapius" was a doctor.
1. Partly out of sympathy for his situation, but mostly I think out of the ingrained detective instinct that can't bear to see a crime unresolved - and particularly not someone falsely accused while the guilty party gets away.
That, combined with the emotional fallout of saving Richard's life, but at the cost of eight years in solitary. After all, if you save someone's life you are supposed to be responsible for them afterwards. :)
2. A chimera (or chimaera) is a creature from Greek mythology, part lion, part goat, part snake. In general usage like this, however, a chimera is an impossible dream or a fantastic scheme of some kind. Richard's mother is afraid he's going to waste the rest of his life trying to find his uncle's killer.
3. Well, making up prescriptions and doing amateur dentistry, to name two. :)
Bell's masculinity probably lies in her lack of the usual female attainments. We gather that she hasn't had a normal female upbringing, nor much female companionship. Consequently she's probably more forthright in her speech and behaviour than well-brought-up young ladies were supposed to be.
4. Yes, violoncello is the full name of the instrument, abbreviated to cello as pianoforte was abbreviated to piano.
5. Because he's a gentleman despite being a doctor - "Mr" was a more honourable title at this time, when the medical profession was only just beginning to be considered respectable.
6. Esculapius (note spelling; also Aesculapius) was the Latin god of medicine; a "disciple of Esculapius" was a doctor.
36SqueakyChu
Book the Fourth - Chapter 6 - Part 2
...in which Joseph Peters explains why he knew Richard was innocent
1. Okay, I really don't understand how Joseph Peters knew who was guilty and who was innocent just by the expressions he saw on the faces of the two men in question. If he is so all knowing, then how come he can't figure out that the "wrong" person is dead? (Madeline remarks sarcastically).
2. I'm having a hard time following the colloquial dialect of Joseph Peters. What kind of accent is that anyway?
3. What is a slop-basin?
...which brings us to the end of Book the Fourth!
...in which Joseph Peters explains why he knew Richard was innocent
1. Okay, I really don't understand how Joseph Peters knew who was guilty and who was innocent just by the expressions he saw on the faces of the two men in question. If he is so all knowing, then how come he can't figure out that the "wrong" person is dead? (Madeline remarks sarcastically).
2. I'm having a hard time following the colloquial dialect of Joseph Peters. What kind of accent is that anyway?
3. What is a slop-basin?
...which brings us to the end of Book the Fourth!
37lyzard
Book 4 Chapter 6 Part 2
1. Well, it's really a combination of professional experience and instinct. Joe has had enough to do with criminals (and innocent people) and has had enough chances to observe how people behave when they're being arrested to appreciate the sharp contrast in reaction to the dreaded hand on the shoulder between Richard and Jabez.
But that comes after Jabez's own odd remark catches Joe's attention. Joe knows that the murderer of Mr Harding did not get the money he came for. He then overhears Jabez speaking bitterly of being disappointed about some money - and then pulling himself up, as if he's angry with himself for mentioning it. That remark might have meant nothing - except that when Joe's instincts prompt him to put a hand on Jabez's shoulder, he gets the startled - that is, guilty - reaction that Richard didn't give.
Don't forget, Slopperton's a smallish town; there weren't so many crimes that Jabez could have been guilty of. Also don't forget that getting caught at this time meant getting hanged; so the involuntary reaction was likely to be one of real fear.
As to your last remark, I'm tempted to be sarcastic in response, but instead I'll just smile... :)
2. Working-class, with a rudimentary education at best. (Possibly with some regional usages, depending upon what part of England Joe is actually from.) Schooling was not compulsory and many working-class children had to find a job at a very early age to help support their families, and so never got past the basics.
Joe's grammar and spelling may leave something to be desired, but we see that spending time with gentlemen has rubbed off in one way:
...and, taking the tide of his affairs at the flood, had availed himself of the water to wash his hands with. At any rate, the digital alphabet was a great deal cleaner than when, eight years ago, he spelt out the two words, "Not guilty"...
3. A slop-basin was a small bowl kept at the tea-table for emptying the dregs of the first cup (containing any leaves) before having another.
___________________________________________________
...which brings us to the end of Book the Fourth!
Well done!
1. Well, it's really a combination of professional experience and instinct. Joe has had enough to do with criminals (and innocent people) and has had enough chances to observe how people behave when they're being arrested to appreciate the sharp contrast in reaction to the dreaded hand on the shoulder between Richard and Jabez.
But that comes after Jabez's own odd remark catches Joe's attention. Joe knows that the murderer of Mr Harding did not get the money he came for. He then overhears Jabez speaking bitterly of being disappointed about some money - and then pulling himself up, as if he's angry with himself for mentioning it. That remark might have meant nothing - except that when Joe's instincts prompt him to put a hand on Jabez's shoulder, he gets the startled - that is, guilty - reaction that Richard didn't give.
Don't forget, Slopperton's a smallish town; there weren't so many crimes that Jabez could have been guilty of. Also don't forget that getting caught at this time meant getting hanged; so the involuntary reaction was likely to be one of real fear.
As to your last remark, I'm tempted to be sarcastic in response, but instead I'll just smile... :)
2. Working-class, with a rudimentary education at best. (Possibly with some regional usages, depending upon what part of England Joe is actually from.) Schooling was not compulsory and many working-class children had to find a job at a very early age to help support their families, and so never got past the basics.
Joe's grammar and spelling may leave something to be desired, but we see that spending time with gentlemen has rubbed off in one way:
...and, taking the tide of his affairs at the flood, had availed himself of the water to wash his hands with. At any rate, the digital alphabet was a great deal cleaner than when, eight years ago, he spelt out the two words, "Not guilty"...
3. A slop-basin was a small bowl kept at the tea-table for emptying the dregs of the first cup (containing any leaves) before having another.
___________________________________________________
...which brings us to the end of Book the Fourth!
Well done!
38SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 1
...in which we return to Valerie and her husband
1. "...blackleading (spelling corrected) her own grate"
What does that mean?
2. The first two pages of this chapter lost me, but I'm not sure there's all that much I need to really know from them. Is there?
3. "...the wife of a parvenu
What's that?
4. Who is the father of Valerie's son?
5. Is the new tenor going to turn out to be Gaston de Lancey?
...in which we return to Valerie and her husband
1. "...blackleading (spelling corrected) her own grate"
What does that mean?
2. The first two pages of this chapter lost me, but I'm not sure there's all that much I need to really know from them. Is there?
3. "...the wife of a parvenu
What's that?
4. Who is the father of Valerie's son?
5. Is the new tenor going to turn out to be Gaston de Lancey?
39lyzard
Book 5 Chapter
1. Blackleading; using graphite as a polishing material. It was commonly done in households of the time as a way of cleaning and shining the grates of the fireplace and was a particularly dirty job - which is why, in Braddon's idiom, you couldn't possibly imagine a duchess doing it herself. (Modern varients of blackleading are still used for this purpose.)
2. It's an echo of the very early stages of the novel, and the comparison there between the lives of the rich and poor in Slopperton. Now we're in London, where the gap between the haves and have-nots is at its widest. However, as Braddon points out, no matter now rich you are there are still some things money can't do, like make you immune to death and sorrow.
3. An upstart; the nouveau-riche. Such people were (supposedly) more interested in displaying their wealth than in being tasteful.
4. Good question. :)
But you might want to consider why Valerie agreed to this marriage at all, and why she told Monsieur Blurosset that she could not kill herself, even though she wanted to...
5. No; Raymond is simply torturing Valerie by dragging up old memories.
1. Blackleading; using graphite as a polishing material. It was commonly done in households of the time as a way of cleaning and shining the grates of the fireplace and was a particularly dirty job - which is why, in Braddon's idiom, you couldn't possibly imagine a duchess doing it herself. (Modern varients of blackleading are still used for this purpose.)
2. It's an echo of the very early stages of the novel, and the comparison there between the lives of the rich and poor in Slopperton. Now we're in London, where the gap between the haves and have-nots is at its widest. However, as Braddon points out, no matter now rich you are there are still some things money can't do, like make you immune to death and sorrow.
3. An upstart; the nouveau-riche. Such people were (supposedly) more interested in displaying their wealth than in being tasteful.
4. Good question. :)
But you might want to consider why Valerie agreed to this marriage at all, and why she told Monsieur Blurosset that she could not kill herself, even though she wanted to...
5. No; Raymond is simply torturing Valerie by dragging up old memories.
40SqueakyChu
But you might want to consider why Valerie agreed to this marriage at all, and why she told Monsieur Blurosset that she could not kill herself, even though she wanted to...
Hmmmmmmmm?!
Hmmmmmmmm?!
41lyzard
Book 3 Chapter 8
She bowed her head in assent to his last proposition, and he left the room. Did he know, or did he guess, that there might be another reason to render her acceptance of his hand possible? Did he think that even his obscure name might be a shelter to her in days to come?
Book 3 Chapter 10
"One reason alone has prevented my coming to you long ere this, to offer you half my fortune for another such drug as that which you sold to me some time since. You may judge, then, that reason is a very powerful one, since, though death alone can give me peace, I yet do not wish to die..."
As I always say about 19th century novels, you have to learn to read between the lines. :)
She bowed her head in assent to his last proposition, and he left the room. Did he know, or did he guess, that there might be another reason to render her acceptance of his hand possible? Did he think that even his obscure name might be a shelter to her in days to come?
Book 3 Chapter 10
"One reason alone has prevented my coming to you long ere this, to offer you half my fortune for another such drug as that which you sold to me some time since. You may judge, then, that reason is a very powerful one, since, though death alone can give me peace, I yet do not wish to die..."
As I always say about 19th century novels, you have to learn to read between the lines. :)
42SqueakyChu
That's why I have you here, Liz. You can read between the lines for me...and then report back to me on what you've found.
Like now, for example! :D
Like now, for example! :D
43SqueakyChu
That is *so* why I can never enjoy reading mysteries. I either miss all the clues completely, or else I forget the first half of the book by the time I get to the second half of the book.
*sigh*
*sigh*
44lyzard
It was tricky for readers and writers at this time, because you had to be very careful about what you said and how you said it. It's almost like a sort of code developed, with certain words and phrases and allusions being used to let readers know what was going on without the author saying so 'out loud'. It can be a puzzle for modern readers, though, because they're so used to having everything spelled out. :)
45lyzard
Anyway!! - now you know who the kid's father is! :D
And on the further subject of reading between lines, I think we can safely assume that it's been a sexless marriage...
And on the further subject of reading between lines, I think we can safely assume that it's been a sexless marriage...
46SqueakyChu
Aha! (on both counts)
47lyzard
Just another observation (not important, just a Braddon in-joke, I think): the Napoleon motif is becoming ubiquitous. Along with Richard's "delusion" and the various busts of Boney, now we have people living at Wellington Square, Waterloo Road. :)
48SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 2
...in which Joseph Peters recognizes Sloshy's father
1. Pity the poor men who cannot "do for" themselves! :)
2. What is a Pembroke table?
3. Who are Punch and Judy (I've heard of them)?
4. What does "Punch and Judy bore off the palm..." mean?
5. "not to lose sight of him nohow"
...which reminds me of these lines from "The Wizard of Oz":
"Go home."
"If you please, we want to see the Wizard right away. All four of us."
"Orders are: Nobody can see the great Oz! Not nobody, not nohow!" :)
6. Those lavendar kid gloves that Sloshy's father wore...seem rather effeminate to me. I'm guessing that was the vogue at the time and place, though.
7. What are "flunkeys"?
...in which Joseph Peters recognizes Sloshy's father
1. Pity the poor men who cannot "do for" themselves! :)
2. What is a Pembroke table?
3. Who are Punch and Judy (I've heard of them)?
4. What does "Punch and Judy bore off the palm..." mean?
5. "not to lose sight of him nohow"
...which reminds me of these lines from "The Wizard of Oz":
"Go home."
"If you please, we want to see the Wizard right away. All four of us."
"Orders are: Nobody can see the great Oz! Not nobody, not nohow!" :)
6. Those lavendar kid gloves that Sloshy's father wore...seem rather effeminate to me. I'm guessing that was the vogue at the time and place, though.
7. What are "flunkeys"?
49lyzard
Book 5 Chapter 2
1. Poor babies. :P
2. A table with folding ends, which can be extended to make room for more people.
3. The stars of a very famous, traditional puppet show - back when puppet shows were held in little booths. Punch and Judy are a married couple with a baby (which screams a lot, rather like Sloshy used to do - perhaps that's the attraction?), and there are a number of supporting characters. The stories are usually variations on a theme of someone playing a prank on Punch and him plotting revenge. It's all done like pantomime, with the audience being encouraged to call out and participate. In the early version these shows were quite violent (Punch traditionally carries a truncheon and hits everyone from Judy to the baby to the local policeman with it), but in more recent times that aspect of it has been toned down.
4. To "bear off the palm" means to come first, or to triumph; it's an expression derived from the traditional use of a palm frond as a sign of victory. (Some military honours include a palm symbol; or think of the Palme d'Or, the top prize at the Cannes Film Festival.) In this case it means that of all the things Sloshy did and saw that day, he liked Punch and Judy the best.
5. Heh! :)
6. Lots of fashionable gentlemanly things were a bit effeminate, because again it's about illustrating the distance between the workers and the non-workers. Wearing delicate, light coloured things was a way of advertising that you weren't someone who got your hands dirty. (And, by the way, compare the Count's lavendar gloves to Joe's dirty fingers.)
7. Another term for manservant, or footman.
1. Poor babies. :P
2. A table with folding ends, which can be extended to make room for more people.
3. The stars of a very famous, traditional puppet show - back when puppet shows were held in little booths. Punch and Judy are a married couple with a baby (which screams a lot, rather like Sloshy used to do - perhaps that's the attraction?), and there are a number of supporting characters. The stories are usually variations on a theme of someone playing a prank on Punch and him plotting revenge. It's all done like pantomime, with the audience being encouraged to call out and participate. In the early version these shows were quite violent (Punch traditionally carries a truncheon and hits everyone from Judy to the baby to the local policeman with it), but in more recent times that aspect of it has been toned down.
4. To "bear off the palm" means to come first, or to triumph; it's an expression derived from the traditional use of a palm frond as a sign of victory. (Some military honours include a palm symbol; or think of the Palme d'Or, the top prize at the Cannes Film Festival.) In this case it means that of all the things Sloshy did and saw that day, he liked Punch and Judy the best.
5. Heh! :)
6. Lots of fashionable gentlemanly things were a bit effeminate, because again it's about illustrating the distance between the workers and the non-workers. Wearing delicate, light coloured things was a way of advertising that you weren't someone who got your hands dirty. (And, by the way, compare the Count's lavendar gloves to Joe's dirty fingers.)
7. Another term for manservant, or footman.
50lyzard
"Is there any reward out for him, father?" He always called Mr Peters father, and wasn't prepared to change his habit in deference to any ghostly phenomenon in the way of a parent suddenly turning up in Lombard Street.
---good for you, Sloshy! :)
I mention this because I think what Braddon is doing here is giving us an example of the kind of "nature vs nurture" debate that became extremely prevalent in the wake of the publication of On The Origin Of Species.
There's more I could say about this but it's better left until after the events of a few chapters' time...
---good for you, Sloshy! :)
I mention this because I think what Braddon is doing here is giving us an example of the kind of "nature vs nurture" debate that became extremely prevalent in the wake of the publication of On The Origin Of Species.
There's more I could say about this but it's better left until after the events of a few chapters' time...
51SqueakyChu
I thought it was funny that Sloshy thought his dad to be a ghost. :)
I was also surprised how calmly Sloshy took that news.
I was also surprised how calmly Sloshy took that news.
52lyzard
Not surprising, considering Joe's agitated rambling about dead men with stakes through their hearts!
Just as well Sloshy takes shocks well, because there's a lot more to be found out yet about his father...
...not to mention that we're due to meet his grandfather... :)
Just as well Sloshy takes shocks well, because there's a lot more to be found out yet about his father...
...not to mention that we're due to meet his grandfather... :)
53SqueakyChu
:O
54SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 3
...in which we learn of the formation of "Daredevil Dick's secret police"
1. "...an easy insouciant manner"
which means what?
2. Is Victor the name of Valerie's son?
3. "...looks game"
means what?
...in which we learn of the formation of "Daredevil Dick's secret police"
1. "...an easy insouciant manner"
which means what?
2. Is Victor the name of Valerie's son?
3. "...looks game"
means what?
55lyzard
Chapter 5 Book 3
1. Casual, or unconcerned; I'd say "nonchalant" but that's just more French. :)
2. Heh! No, I think our friend "Raymond" has changed his name again. Probably after buying himself a title with Valerie's money, he decided that "Raymond" wasn't aristocratic enough. Note that he is referred to as both Count Victor and Monsieur Raymond. He also seems to have acquired a "de" which he didn't have before - de Marolles - which is also more aristocratic. Having successfully erased all evidence of his first life, he's now working on erasing his second as a Parisian adventurer.
3. To be "game" in this context means up for anything; that you're not a coward, or not afraid afraid to take a risk.
1. Casual, or unconcerned; I'd say "nonchalant" but that's just more French. :)
2. Heh! No, I think our friend "Raymond" has changed his name again. Probably after buying himself a title with Valerie's money, he decided that "Raymond" wasn't aristocratic enough. Note that he is referred to as both Count Victor and Monsieur Raymond. He also seems to have acquired a "de" which he didn't have before - de Marolles - which is also more aristocratic. Having successfully erased all evidence of his first life, he's now working on erasing his second as a Parisian adventurer.
3. To be "game" in this context means up for anything; that you're not a coward, or not afraid afraid to take a risk.
56SqueakyChu
> 2
Well, if characters keep changing their names every other chapter, how am I supposed to keep track of who they are? ;)
Well, if characters keep changing their names every other chapter, how am I supposed to keep track of who they are? ;)
57Matke
I thought "insouciant" had more of a feel of being impertinent, or "in your face" a bit, rather than simply nonchalant or careless. Could be all wet, though.
58lyzard
>>#56 Well, you could ask your tutor... :)
>>#57 Hmm...the Old English Dictionary says..."careless, unconcerned, indifferent". The word to me does carry a slight sense of recklessness, or not caring when you should care, though.
>>#57 Hmm...the Old English Dictionary says..."careless, unconcerned, indifferent". The word to me does carry a slight sense of recklessness, or not caring when you should care, though.
59SqueakyChu
I'm skipping my read tonight. A friend left late, and I've been on Facebook tonight trying to share some old family pictures with cousins in Israel. I'll continue reading the next chapter tomorrow.
61SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 5
... in which we meet the "good" Captain
1. "...crabbed Arabic"
...is what?
2. So Laurent turns out to be Blurosset! Is the naming of characters by different names in different chapters done purposely to surprise readers when they find that "two" characters are really just one?
3. I take it, then, that Mujeebez was an Indian servant of Montague Harding and that Mujeebez was presumed dead from the blow to the head he'd received from Jabez North?
4. Is "nervous fever" the same as "brain fever"?
5. I'm curious to see how Captain Lansdown will tie into this story...
... in which we meet the "good" Captain
1. "...crabbed Arabic"
...is what?
2. So Laurent turns out to be Blurosset! Is the naming of characters by different names in different chapters done purposely to surprise readers when they find that "two" characters are really just one?
3. I take it, then, that Mujeebez was an Indian servant of Montague Harding and that Mujeebez was presumed dead from the blow to the head he'd received from Jabez North?
4. Is "nervous fever" the same as "brain fever"?
5. I'm curious to see how Captain Lansdown will tie into this story...
62lyzard
Book 5 Chapter 5
1. "Crabbed", in handwriting, means hard to read - often because the writing is small or the letters very close together.
2. Laurent is Blurosset's first name - no identity switch this time! :)
3. He wasn't presumed dead: he was critically injured and expected to die, and too ill to testify at the trial, but slowly recovered after that and then returned to India. But yes, this is Montague Harding's former servant.
4. In this case I imagine it's something more concrete stemming from his physical injuries.
5. Well, you know what my answer to that is... :)
1. "Crabbed", in handwriting, means hard to read - often because the writing is small or the letters very close together.
2. Laurent is Blurosset's first name - no identity switch this time! :)
3. He wasn't presumed dead: he was critically injured and expected to die, and too ill to testify at the trial, but slowly recovered after that and then returned to India. But yes, this is Montague Harding's former servant.
4. In this case I imagine it's something more concrete stemming from his physical injuries.
5. Well, you know what my answer to that is... :)
63SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 6
... in which Daredevil Dick disguises himself as a milkman
1. What does "he designates 'plates'" mean?
2. Please explain these terms:
a. scullerymaid
b. treacle
c. Holland blouse
d. shooting jacket
... in which Daredevil Dick disguises himself as a milkman
1. What does "he designates 'plates'" mean?
2. Please explain these terms:
a. scullerymaid
b. treacle
c. Holland blouse
d. shooting jacket
64lyzard
Book 5 Chapter 6
1. The chef is French; in French the term plat, or "plate", means the same as a "dish" in English: he's working out what to serve at various meals and possibly designing recipes. (Having a French chef was a status symbol at the time and menus were often written in French.)
2a. The lowest ranked female house servant, who got all the worst jobs.
2b. Rather like molasses. (In fact I think it may be made using molasses.) A sugary syrup used in cooking.
2c. A long shirt worn by working men as a cover-all, to protect their clothing.
2d. A man's coat reaching only to the hips, with large pockets. Originally designed for, yes, shooting, but often worn during the day for general purposes. (In this case, for hiding a discarded disguise in the pockets.)
1. The chef is French; in French the term plat, or "plate", means the same as a "dish" in English: he's working out what to serve at various meals and possibly designing recipes. (Having a French chef was a status symbol at the time and menus were often written in French.)
2a. The lowest ranked female house servant, who got all the worst jobs.
2b. Rather like molasses. (In fact I think it may be made using molasses.) A sugary syrup used in cooking.
2c. A long shirt worn by working men as a cover-all, to protect their clothing.
2d. A man's coat reaching only to the hips, with large pockets. Originally designed for, yes, shooting, but often worn during the day for general purposes. (In this case, for hiding a discarded disguise in the pockets.)
65SqueakyChu
In this case, for hiding a discarded disguise in the pockets.
Heh!
Heh!
66lyzard
If you're going to be a successful detective - or even a successful detective's deputy - you have to think of these things! :)
I hope the French chef wasn't counting on milk or cream for his recipes...
I hope the French chef wasn't counting on milk or cream for his recipes...
67SqueakyChu
I enjoyed this chapter. I think it was quite fun. I'd rather read about the milkman (or, in this case, the pretend milkman), than about royalty. I think I'll hang out with the scullerymaid for a bit. :)
68lyzard
The reassuring thing about Braddon is that, if she does bring the aristocracy into it, it's only to eventually cut them down to size... :)
69SqueakyChu
I'm not reading tonight. I'm watching my president's state of the union address. I'll read tomorrow.
71SqueakyChu
I thought it was a perfectly legitimate excuse. :)
72SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 6
...in which Valerie makes a startling discovery
1. What is the difference between the use of the word "Signor" and the word "Monsieur"?
2. What are these French words?
a. "...received considerable empressment"
b. "...in this omnes business"
c. "...the Duchess of C. is éprise"
3. I'm considering how frequently the incidence of overhearing conversations has popped up in our readings. Is this a device that was commonly used in the literature of that time? I think you once told me it was.
...in which Valerie makes a startling discovery
1. What is the difference between the use of the word "Signor" and the word "Monsieur"?
2. What are these French words?
a. "...received considerable empressment"
b. "...in this omnes business"
c. "...the Duchess of C. is éprise"
3. I'm considering how frequently the incidence of overhearing conversations has popped up in our readings. Is this a device that was commonly used in the literature of that time? I think you once told me it was.
73lyzard
Book 5 Chapter 6
1. One is Italian and one is French; they both mean "Mister".
At this time opera was essentially an Italian phenomenon. Our old friend Monsieur Moucee, who we know is French, has tried to make himself seem more like a "proper" opera singer by Italianising his name - Signor Mosquetti.
2a. That's hard to translate. It means doing a thing dramatically or with undue emphasis - perhaps so that other people notice.
2b. Something involving everyone present, or everyone in a group.
2c. Infatuated. (More polite than "infatuated", though, which is why people use the French term!)
3. It was commonly used in literature at the time - now it's probably been taking over by texting the wrong person, or some such. :)
Different types of novels used different set-ups for it, though. The conversation overheard at a party was quite a common real-life occurrence, so novels that use this device are reasonably realistic. Rooms were often crowded (how many people you could cram in a room was often the measure of how successful your party was) and lighting was poor, so there were certainly frequent opportunities for eavesdropping (deliberate or otherwise).
However, in this case Valerie isn't really eavesdropping - Signor Mosquetti is simply telling an interesting anecdote for whoever cares to listen. The point you raise above - "...in this omnes business..." - suggests that he has quite a crowd listening.
1. One is Italian and one is French; they both mean "Mister".
At this time opera was essentially an Italian phenomenon. Our old friend Monsieur Moucee, who we know is French, has tried to make himself seem more like a "proper" opera singer by Italianising his name - Signor Mosquetti.
2a. That's hard to translate. It means doing a thing dramatically or with undue emphasis - perhaps so that other people notice.
2b. Something involving everyone present, or everyone in a group.
2c. Infatuated. (More polite than "infatuated", though, which is why people use the French term!)
3. It was commonly used in literature at the time - now it's probably been taking over by texting the wrong person, or some such. :)
Different types of novels used different set-ups for it, though. The conversation overheard at a party was quite a common real-life occurrence, so novels that use this device are reasonably realistic. Rooms were often crowded (how many people you could cram in a room was often the measure of how successful your party was) and lighting was poor, so there were certainly frequent opportunities for eavesdropping (deliberate or otherwise).
However, in this case Valerie isn't really eavesdropping - Signor Mosquetti is simply telling an interesting anecdote for whoever cares to listen. The point you raise above - "...in this omnes business..." - suggests that he has quite a crowd listening.
74lyzard
"I thought, monsieur, that I knew the hideous abyss of your black soul to its lowest depths. I was wrong..."
Go, Valerie!
I love Braddon's ongoing refusal to have her faint, too. :)
Go, Valerie!
I love Braddon's ongoing refusal to have her faint, too. :)
75SqueakyChu
I'm celebrating Valentine's Day today instead of reading. I'll read the next chapter tomorrow...
77SqueakyChu
No. Eating pizza and chocolate* with my husband as a bouquet of roses bedecks our table on a national holiday of love trumps reading any time!
*That's not to say what it does to my weight loss diet and my waist line. Now that's a horse of a different color (...to add another quote from "The Wizard of Oz". Can you tell that's my favorite movie?). :)
*That's not to say what it does to my weight loss diet and my waist line. Now that's a horse of a different color (...to add another quote from "The Wizard of Oz". Can you tell that's my favorite movie?). :)
78SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 7
...in which Raymond's grandmother reveals her secret
1. "There is little augery to be drawn from the pale smooth face..."
What does that mean?
2. A bunch of violets seems such a pitiful thing to sell.
3. Lawrence Sterne, author of The Life and Opinions of Tristam Shandy, was mentioned in this chapter. Did the tutored read of that book here on LT ever finish? I remember when it began, but then I lost track of that thread.
4. "I don't give macaroons to donkeys".
What does that mean?
5. Why is a pageboy called a "tiger"?
6. The marriage certificate remained viable after being walked on between two leather shoe soles after thirty years?! Come on!!! :O
7. So was Valerie's father also Raymond's father?
...in which Raymond's grandmother reveals her secret
1. "There is little augery to be drawn from the pale smooth face..."
What does that mean?
2. A bunch of violets seems such a pitiful thing to sell.
3. Lawrence Sterne, author of The Life and Opinions of Tristam Shandy, was mentioned in this chapter. Did the tutored read of that book here on LT ever finish? I remember when it began, but then I lost track of that thread.
4. "I don't give macaroons to donkeys".
What does that mean?
5. Why is a pageboy called a "tiger"?
6. The marriage certificate remained viable after being walked on between two leather shoe soles after thirty years?! Come on!!! :O
7. So was Valerie's father also Raymond's father?
80lyzard
Book 5 Chapter 7
1. A sign or omen of the future.
2. And yet countless women tried to earn an honest living that way. One of the reasons there was so much prostitution at this time is that, for as long as it lasted, it paid better than most alternative jobs for women.
3. No, Keri had to drop out, unfortunately. Stupid real life! :(
4. That's a reference to Sterne again, to an incident in his A Sentimental Journey Through France And Italy. Sterne had a thing about donkeys. The expression means something like - "the world is bitter, and there is no-one to sweeten it for you". (Of course, when Raymond uses that expression, he means it literally - "I'm not going to help you!")
(Braddon means nothing complimentary to Sterne by having Raymond quote him. Somewhere around here she compares him very unfavourably with his contemporary Oliver Goldsmith.)
5. I don't know the origin of that expression. A tiger is a groom rather than a pageboy; he was there to look after the horses. He rode on a platform at the back of any sort of carriage that its owner drove himself, so he needed to be small and light. There was a prestige about having the smallest tiger you could get. (Slosh is naturally qualified, as we know.)
6. Not the same ones all the time, I'm sure. :)
That piece of paper was the only thing that was ever possibly going to bring her the gold she dreamed of, and would have been guarded as carefully as possible come what may. It would have done better encased in leather than handled or exposed to the elements.
7. No, his father is her uncle, and they are cousins.
The point being that Raymond is the legitimate heir to the de Cevennes title and fortune, and there was no need for him to go through all that with Valerie in order to get his hands on her money - if he had pried the secret out of his grandmother when he first met her. But as it was he had to leave Slopperton in a hurry, and didn't get the chance.
1. A sign or omen of the future.
2. And yet countless women tried to earn an honest living that way. One of the reasons there was so much prostitution at this time is that, for as long as it lasted, it paid better than most alternative jobs for women.
3. No, Keri had to drop out, unfortunately. Stupid real life! :(
4. That's a reference to Sterne again, to an incident in his A Sentimental Journey Through France And Italy. Sterne had a thing about donkeys. The expression means something like - "the world is bitter, and there is no-one to sweeten it for you". (Of course, when Raymond uses that expression, he means it literally - "I'm not going to help you!")
(Braddon means nothing complimentary to Sterne by having Raymond quote him. Somewhere around here she compares him very unfavourably with his contemporary Oliver Goldsmith.)
5. I don't know the origin of that expression. A tiger is a groom rather than a pageboy; he was there to look after the horses. He rode on a platform at the back of any sort of carriage that its owner drove himself, so he needed to be small and light. There was a prestige about having the smallest tiger you could get. (Slosh is naturally qualified, as we know.)
6. Not the same ones all the time, I'm sure. :)
That piece of paper was the only thing that was ever possibly going to bring her the gold she dreamed of, and would have been guarded as carefully as possible come what may. It would have done better encased in leather than handled or exposed to the elements.
7. No, his father is her uncle, and they are cousins.
The point being that Raymond is the legitimate heir to the de Cevennes title and fortune, and there was no need for him to go through all that with Valerie in order to get his hands on her money - if he had pried the secret out of his grandmother when he first met her. But as it was he had to leave Slopperton in a hurry, and didn't get the chance.
81lyzard
Ahem.
"Who I am, and what I am! Oh, I dare say, I shall turn out to be somebody great, as the hero does in a lady's novel."
"Who I am, and what I am! Oh, I dare say, I shall turn out to be somebody great, as the hero does in a lady's novel."
82SqueakyChu
:)
83Matke
:) from me too.
Is the Tristram Shandy thread still extant somewhere? I'd like to read the book, maybe this or next year, but I'm a bit afraid to start it as I don't want to get confused, slam it shut, and forget about it.
I found this one (book and thread) most enjoyable.
Is the Tristram Shandy thread still extant somewhere? I'd like to read the book, maybe this or next year, but I'm a bit afraid to start it as I don't want to get confused, slam it shut, and forget about it.
I found this one (book and thread) most enjoyable.
84lyzard
...but what Raymond forgets is, he's NOT the hero...
The Tristram Shandy thread is still out there, Gail, but we didn't get very far, unfortunately. Gimme a minute... Here.
I guess if you were interested we could revive it? - though I'd have to do a refresher course first! :)
The Tristram Shandy thread is still out there, Gail, but we didn't get very far, unfortunately. Gimme a minute... Here.
I guess if you were interested we could revive it? - though I'd have to do a refresher course first! :)
85SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 8
...in which Dr. Tappenden reappears
1. What is saltpetre?
2. Dr. Tappenden now has proof that Jabez North was the murderer?
3. Were all the leaves of all the books on the bookshelf scattered freely together at the end of this chapter? If so, why were the leaves of each book not attached to its own binding?
4. I find it annoying to keep having to go to the footnotes to know who all of the named historical people are, none of whom I'm ever going to remember. Were readers of this book at the time it was written familiar with all of those historical characters?
...in which Dr. Tappenden reappears
1. What is saltpetre?
2. Dr. Tappenden now has proof that Jabez North was the murderer?
3. Were all the leaves of all the books on the bookshelf scattered freely together at the end of this chapter? If so, why were the leaves of each book not attached to its own binding?
4. I find it annoying to keep having to go to the footnotes to know who all of the named historical people are, none of whom I'm ever going to remember. Were readers of this book at the time it was written familiar with all of those historical characters?
86lyzard
Book 5 Chapter
1. Potassium nitrate, which is one of the main ingredients in gunpowder.
2. Not proof, but some circumstantial evidence about Jabez that helps to tie him to the murder; we'll hear about that presently. He does know it was Jabez who broke into his desk, stole his blank cheques and forged his name to them, though. (Which is where he got the money for his adventuring in Paris.) That matter, like so many others, was allowed to drop when Jabez "died".
3. I think those books have fallen off the rickety bookshelf so often, they're no longer in optimum condition. (The binding of inexpensive editions of books was not particularly strong, in any case.)
4. Yes, there was a lot more teaching of history and a lot more reading of general information books by the public. (That was considered "respectable" reading, as opposed to novels.) Also, a lot of people self-educated themselves through their non-fiction reading, particularly girls and the lower-to-middle classes, who either couldn't afford or weren't given the opportunity to go to school. Braddon's readers, who you would expect to be middle-class and up, would have understood thesignificance of most of her references.
1. Potassium nitrate, which is one of the main ingredients in gunpowder.
2. Not proof, but some circumstantial evidence about Jabez that helps to tie him to the murder; we'll hear about that presently. He does know it was Jabez who broke into his desk, stole his blank cheques and forged his name to them, though. (Which is where he got the money for his adventuring in Paris.) That matter, like so many others, was allowed to drop when Jabez "died".
3. I think those books have fallen off the rickety bookshelf so often, they're no longer in optimum condition. (The binding of inexpensive editions of books was not particularly strong, in any case.)
4. Yes, there was a lot more teaching of history and a lot more reading of general information books by the public. (That was considered "respectable" reading, as opposed to novels.) Also, a lot of people self-educated themselves through their non-fiction reading, particularly girls and the lower-to-middle classes, who either couldn't afford or weren't given the opportunity to go to school. Braddon's readers, who you would expect to be middle-class and up, would have understood thesignificance of most of her references.
87lyzard
...though of course the most important "real-life" reference in this chapter is this:
...wherein the writings of Charles Dickens, George Sand, Harrison Ainsworth, and Alexandre Dumas are blended together in the most delicious and exciting confusion.
Which is Braddon's tribute to the authors she grew up on and who inspired her own writing. :)
...wherein the writings of Charles Dickens, George Sand, Harrison Ainsworth, and Alexandre Dumas are blended together in the most delicious and exciting confusion.
Which is Braddon's tribute to the authors she grew up on and who inspired her own writing. :)
88SqueakyChu
I'm not familiar with the names George Sand and Harrison Ainsworth. I have read Dickens, and my older son has read Dumas.
89lyzard
All of these novelists wrote (or sometimes wrote) in a style which might be called "proto-sensationalist", often with complex plots and many characters and dark deeds. :)
Harrison Ainsworth was a popular early 19th century English novelist who wrote a lot of historical fiction. He also wrote a number of so-called "Newgate Novels", novels that featured highwaymen and other criminal types as anti-heroes, or sometimes just heroes.
George Sand was aka the Baroness Dudevant, a French novelist as famous for her unconventional lifestyle as her writing (she favoured men's clothing, and wore a monocle and smoked). She was also notorious as the lover of Frederic Chopin.
Harrison Ainsworth was a popular early 19th century English novelist who wrote a lot of historical fiction. He also wrote a number of so-called "Newgate Novels", novels that featured highwaymen and other criminal types as anti-heroes, or sometimes just heroes.
George Sand was aka the Baroness Dudevant, a French novelist as famous for her unconventional lifestyle as her writing (she favoured men's clothing, and wore a monocle and smoked). She was also notorious as the lover of Frederic Chopin.
90SqueakyChu
Have you read any works by Harrison Ainsworth or George Sand? Did you like what you read? Would I like any works by either of these two authors?
*...she asks, hesitantly*
I must admit that George Sands sounds the more intriguing of these two authors. :)
*...she asks, hesitantly*
I must admit that George Sands sounds the more intriguing of these two authors. :)
91SqueakyChu
Book the Fifth - Chapter 9
... in which Valerie visits Laurent Blurosset
1. "...the captain stopped in the shadow of the dark hall and listened."
What if we stopped counting "melancholies" and started counting "eavesdroppings"? :)
2. "...the chevalier of fortune
...which means?
3. "...falls senseless to the floor"
You can't tell me that Valerie did not experience a full faint this time! :D
...which brings us to the end of Book the Fifth!
... in which Valerie visits Laurent Blurosset
1. "...the captain stopped in the shadow of the dark hall and listened."
What if we stopped counting "melancholies" and started counting "eavesdroppings"? :)
2. "...the chevalier of fortune
...which means?
3. "...falls senseless to the floor"
You can't tell me that Valerie did not experience a full faint this time! :D
...which brings us to the end of Book the Fifth!
92lyzard
>>#90
I'm not well-acquainted enough with either of those writers to have a clear opinion for you. I've read a little of each but I don't know how representative those particular novels might be. Naturally both of them are On The List, though, so we might come back to this point later.
I'm not well-acquainted enough with either of those writers to have a clear opinion for you. I've read a little of each but I don't know how representative those particular novels might be. Naturally both of them are On The List, though, so we might come back to this point later.
93lyzard
Book 5 Chapter 9
1. I said initially that one of the provocative things about sensation novels was their insistence that "nice people" often did things that they weren't supposed to. You could certainly put eavesdropping on that list - although I don't think that anyone would deny that Captain Lansdown was tempted beyond what anybody could be expected to stand.
2. "Chevalier" means "knight", generally. In this case it's a more classy way of saying "soldier of fortune", an adventurer who lives by his wits. (Blurosset is French, so he uses the French term.)
3. I just LOVE this about this book! I get so exasperated by the insistence of authors - well into the 1930s, too! - that women are these fragile, high-strung creatures that faint at the drop of a hat. All through this novel we've have Braddon telling us that Valerie did not faint in spite of the shock she'd just received, all working up to this climactic moment when she gets a shock so overwhelming that even she can't withstand it. :)
1. I said initially that one of the provocative things about sensation novels was their insistence that "nice people" often did things that they weren't supposed to. You could certainly put eavesdropping on that list - although I don't think that anyone would deny that Captain Lansdown was tempted beyond what anybody could be expected to stand.
2. "Chevalier" means "knight", generally. In this case it's a more classy way of saying "soldier of fortune", an adventurer who lives by his wits. (Blurosset is French, so he uses the French term.)
3. I just LOVE this about this book! I get so exasperated by the insistence of authors - well into the 1930s, too! - that women are these fragile, high-strung creatures that faint at the drop of a hat. All through this novel we've have Braddon telling us that Valerie did not faint in spite of the shock she'd just received, all working up to this climactic moment when she gets a shock so overwhelming that even she can't withstand it. :)
94lyzard
...which brings us to the end of Book the Fifth!
Whoo! We're in the home stretch now! :)
By the way...the next chapter is an absolute killer, as we get up close and personal with someone EVEN WORSE thanJabez North Raymond de Marolles Whatsisname. :D
Whoo! We're in the home stretch now! :)
By the way...the next chapter is an absolute killer, as we get up close and personal with someone EVEN WORSE than
95lyzard
By the way...again. :)
If you cast your mind waaaay back, you might remember that I mentioned an in-joke buried in the text (Book 2 Chapter 6). It's when Joe is getting career ambitions and thinking what kind of case he needs to get on:
"I should like an iron-safe case, a regular out-and-out burglary," he muses, "or a good forgery, say to the tune of a thousand or so. Or a bit of bigamy; that would be something new. But a jolly good poisoning case might make my fortune..."
The joke being that this turns out to be a perfect summation of Jabez's criminal career, in which he is guilty of burglary, forgery, bigamy AND poisoning!
Though to be fair he didn't know he was involved in a bigamous marriage. :)
Hmm... And the next time we catch up with him, he's considering poisoning Valerie to keep her quiet...
If you cast your mind waaaay back, you might remember that I mentioned an in-joke buried in the text (Book 2 Chapter 6). It's when Joe is getting career ambitions and thinking what kind of case he needs to get on:
"I should like an iron-safe case, a regular out-and-out burglary," he muses, "or a good forgery, say to the tune of a thousand or so. Or a bit of bigamy; that would be something new. But a jolly good poisoning case might make my fortune..."
The joke being that this turns out to be a perfect summation of Jabez's criminal career, in which he is guilty of burglary, forgery, bigamy AND poisoning!
Though to be fair he didn't know he was involved in a bigamous marriage. :)
Hmm... And the next time we catch up with him, he's considering poisoning Valerie to keep her quiet...
96SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 1 - Part 1
... in which Valerie's uncle pays a visit to Raymond
1. Please help me understand these words:
a. "...which communicates with a mews"
b. "...sit on the hob"
c. "I dare say I am prosy..."
d. "...the sang froid of the Marquis"
2. Why does the Marquis have such a long name?
---------------------
...ends with:
"...Valerie enters the room."
... in which Valerie's uncle pays a visit to Raymond
1. Please help me understand these words:
a. "...which communicates with a mews"
b. "...sit on the hob"
c. "I dare say I am prosy..."
d. "...the sang froid of the Marquis"
2. Why does the Marquis have such a long name?
---------------------
...ends with:
"...Valerie enters the room."
97lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 1 Part 1
1a. Originally a mews was a group of buildings consisting of private stables and/or areas for storing carriages, along with housing for the associated staff. It was usually positioned behind the main house and garden and would be connected to them by alleyways and gates. After horses were replaced by cars, many mews were converted into residential housing.
1b. A hob is a shelf built into a fireplace used for keeping things like food, hot drinks or cooking utensils warm.
1c. Talkative, long-winded.
1d. Strictly, "cold blood" - meaning that someone is invariably calm and composed and impossible to startle or upset.
2. Because in the aristocracy a lot of family history tends to get crammed into the eldest son's name. Also, at that time there were often multiple godparents. There were a lot of people who had to be shown respect in this way.
But he "only" has four first names, which wasn't uncommon - "Le Grange Martel" is his surname.
1a. Originally a mews was a group of buildings consisting of private stables and/or areas for storing carriages, along with housing for the associated staff. It was usually positioned behind the main house and garden and would be connected to them by alleyways and gates. After horses were replaced by cars, many mews were converted into residential housing.
1b. A hob is a shelf built into a fireplace used for keeping things like food, hot drinks or cooking utensils warm.
1c. Talkative, long-winded.
1d. Strictly, "cold blood" - meaning that someone is invariably calm and composed and impossible to startle or upset.
2. Because in the aristocracy a lot of family history tends to get crammed into the eldest son's name. Also, at that time there were often multiple godparents. There were a lot of people who had to be shown respect in this way.
But he "only" has four first names, which wasn't uncommon - "Le Grange Martel" is his surname.
98SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 1 - Part 2
...in which Raymond is about to be arrested
1. "...as ormolu is like rough Australian gold"
What is ormolu?
...in which Raymond is about to be arrested
1. "...as ormolu is like rough Australian gold"
What is ormolu?
99lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 1 Part 2
1. Originally it was the result of a process used to put a fine gold coating trim on things like ornaments and clocks, but the process used mercury and was outlawed in the early 19th century for health reasons. By the time Braddon was writing, "ormolu" meant fake gilding.
Ah! And here's the comparison of Laurence Sterne and Oliver Goldsmith. I knew it was around here somewhere. :)
1. Originally it was the result of a process used to put a fine gold coating trim on things like ornaments and clocks, but the process used mercury and was outlawed in the early 19th century for health reasons. By the time Braddon was writing, "ormolu" meant fake gilding.
Ah! And here's the comparison of Laurence Sterne and Oliver Goldsmith. I knew it was around here somewhere. :)
100lyzard
Ha! My turn to bail on you!
Not really. :)
I'll be away from the computer tomorrow and so will be very late answering any questions. Please post them anyway and I'll get to them as soon as I can.
Not really. :)
I'll be away from the computer tomorrow and so will be very late answering any questions. Please post them anyway and I'll get to them as soon as I can.
101SqueakyChu
No problem. Enjoy your mini-vacation from your role as tutor. ;)
102SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 2
...in whichRichard Raymond reveals his relationship to his father
1. "...this is not the Port-St.-Martin, and there are no citizens in the gallery to applaud."
What is the Port-St.-Martin?
2. Why did the Marquis say that his wife's relations would have been put in the zoo (Jardin des Plantes)?
3. What was the succession of events that allowed the Marquis to regain his title and fortune?
4. Hmmm? Like father; like son. I was amused that the dad didn't care all that much about his son revealing his identity. That sort of put Richard in his place.
...in which
1. "...this is not the Port-St.-Martin, and there are no citizens in the gallery to applaud."
What is the Port-St.-Martin?
2. Why did the Marquis say that his wife's relations would have been put in the zoo (Jardin des Plantes)?
3. What was the succession of events that allowed the Marquis to regain his title and fortune?
4. Hmmm? Like father; like son. I was amused that the dad didn't care all that much about his son revealing his identity. That sort of put Richard in his place.
103lyzard
(Pssst... Raymond...)
Book 6 Chapter 2
1. The Théâtre de la Porte Saint-Martin was (is) a famous theatre and opera house in Paris. The Marquis is accusing Raymond of carrying on as if he is in a bad melodrama.
2. Because from the point of view of a French aristocrat, the poor people of Slopperton were no better than animals; performing apes, in fact, amusing from a distance.
3. Okay, This goes back to what I was saying at the beginning of Book 2, when we first shifted to Paris, about how Braddon had to date her narrative so as to coincide with certain political situations in France. It was then 1842; it is now 1850. We know that the Marquis is about sixty years old, so he may even have been born in England: his family (or however much of it was still alive) fled the French Revolution, which started in 1787. They would have left France penniless and completely unused to doing work of any kind, which is why the future Marquis eventually had to scrape a living teaching.
Meanwhile, Napoleon became First Consul of France in 1799, and then the Napoleonic Wars lasted until the final defeat in 1815, at Waterloo. Napoleon was exiled to St Helena, and royal family of Bourbon under Louis XVIII was restored to the throne of France. In the aftermath, the exiled aristocrats were free to return to France if they wanted to, and one who did want to was the Marquis de Cevennes, who promptly abandoned his wife. His title and the family estates were restored to him, but he was penniless, so he acquired a fortune by marrying (bigamously) a rich widow.
4. "So, you are my son? Upon my word I thought all along you were something of that kind, for you are such a consummate villain."
Yes, he's hilarious, in a sick sort of way. Anyway, it's fun seeing Raymond hoist with his own petard. :)
BUT - this is Sloshy's grandfather and father, remember! Braddon's readers probably would have considered the boy completely doomed by his genetic inheritance, while today we are more likely to point to the influence of Joe and Kuppins. But there is a battle going on there.
Book 6 Chapter 2
1. The Théâtre de la Porte Saint-Martin was (is) a famous theatre and opera house in Paris. The Marquis is accusing Raymond of carrying on as if he is in a bad melodrama.
2. Because from the point of view of a French aristocrat, the poor people of Slopperton were no better than animals; performing apes, in fact, amusing from a distance.
3. Okay, This goes back to what I was saying at the beginning of Book 2, when we first shifted to Paris, about how Braddon had to date her narrative so as to coincide with certain political situations in France. It was then 1842; it is now 1850. We know that the Marquis is about sixty years old, so he may even have been born in England: his family (or however much of it was still alive) fled the French Revolution, which started in 1787. They would have left France penniless and completely unused to doing work of any kind, which is why the future Marquis eventually had to scrape a living teaching.
Meanwhile, Napoleon became First Consul of France in 1799, and then the Napoleonic Wars lasted until the final defeat in 1815, at Waterloo. Napoleon was exiled to St Helena, and royal family of Bourbon under Louis XVIII was restored to the throne of France. In the aftermath, the exiled aristocrats were free to return to France if they wanted to, and one who did want to was the Marquis de Cevennes, who promptly abandoned his wife. His title and the family estates were restored to him, but he was penniless, so he acquired a fortune by marrying (bigamously) a rich widow.
4. "So, you are my son? Upon my word I thought all along you were something of that kind, for you are such a consummate villain."
Yes, he's hilarious, in a sick sort of way. Anyway, it's fun seeing Raymond hoist with his own petard. :)
BUT - this is Sloshy's grandfather and father, remember! Braddon's readers probably would have considered the boy completely doomed by his genetic inheritance, while today we are more likely to point to the influence of Joe and Kuppins. But there is a battle going on there.
104SqueakyChu
Thanks for the detailed history in question #3.
105Matke
I did find the old Marquis quite funny in his unrepentant odiousness.
Re: Sloshy:
I wouldn't have seen the "nature vs. nurture" argument had you not pointed it out. Thanks!
I may or may not get to Tristram Shandy in this lifetime. But I will check out the thread anyway.
Re: Sloshy:
I wouldn't have seen the "nature vs. nurture" argument had you not pointed it out. Thanks!
I may or may not get to Tristram Shandy in this lifetime. But I will check out the thread anyway.
106lyzard
>>#104
Welcome! :)
>>#105
What I found funny is after all the times Raymond reflects that he has the whip hand over Valerie because he can stay cool while she gets emotional, we get this beautiful example of the tables being turned.
There was a lot of debate about these sorts of things at the time, but the notion that someone was "naturally" aristocratic was a long time dying.
Yeah, Tristram Shandy is that kind of book! Let me know if you decide to take the plunge.
Welcome! :)
>>#105
What I found funny is after all the times Raymond reflects that he has the whip hand over Valerie because he can stay cool while she gets emotional, we get this beautiful example of the tables being turned.
There was a lot of debate about these sorts of things at the time, but the notion that someone was "naturally" aristocratic was a long time dying.
Yeah, Tristram Shandy is that kind of book! Let me know if you decide to take the plunge.
107SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 3 - Part 1
...in which...???
1. What are pugilistic arts or pugilistic dinners?
2. I have no idea what the author is talking about in this chapter. I'll finish the rest of the chapter tomorrow as I'm not enjoying it now. It seems that this is the end of some dinner and everyone is drunk. :(
ends with...
"...without the genius of modern civilization at the helm."
...in which...???
1. What are pugilistic arts or pugilistic dinners?
2. I have no idea what the author is talking about in this chapter. I'll finish the rest of the chapter tomorrow as I'm not enjoying it now. It seems that this is the end of some dinner and everyone is drunk. :(
ends with...
"...without the genius of modern civilization at the helm."
108lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 3 Part 1
"Pugilism" is the formal term for boxing.
You're right about most of the rest of it. Briefly, a tribute dinner was held in Liverpool for our old acquaintance, the Left-Handed Smasher, at a pub called the Gloves Tavern, which is next to a theatre. Most of the pub's patrons, and most of the people at the dinner, are either boxers or actors. The dinner is a lengthy and extremely alcohol-drenched function, and at the end of it the Smasher staggers off into the night (or early morning) with an actor friend, William Watson, aka Augustus de Clifford, aka Brandolph of the Brand (the latter being the name of his character in the play he's acting in).
This is one of those chapters that makes me suspect that people didn't know that Braddon was a woman - and that she wrote chapters like this not because it was wholly necessary, but chiefly to enjoy her freedom to do so. Nice young women were not supposed to know anything about boxing - or that dinners like these even took place, let alone be able to describe the aftermath of one. They weren't supposed to take a frivolous attitude towards drunkenness, either. :)
Braddon was an actress before becoming a writer, when that was anything but respectable, and away from home from quite a young age. Quite likely she did spend time with people like these, and witness scenes such as she describes here. (Not to mention the drunkenness!)
ETA: On the same subject, I can't quite decide if calling a newspaper the Liverpool B. S. was a deliberate dirty joke or just a happy accident. :D
"Pugilism" is the formal term for boxing.
You're right about most of the rest of it. Briefly, a tribute dinner was held in Liverpool for our old acquaintance, the Left-Handed Smasher, at a pub called the Gloves Tavern, which is next to a theatre. Most of the pub's patrons, and most of the people at the dinner, are either boxers or actors. The dinner is a lengthy and extremely alcohol-drenched function, and at the end of it the Smasher staggers off into the night (or early morning) with an actor friend, William Watson, aka Augustus de Clifford, aka Brandolph of the Brand (the latter being the name of his character in the play he's acting in).
This is one of those chapters that makes me suspect that people didn't know that Braddon was a woman - and that she wrote chapters like this not because it was wholly necessary, but chiefly to enjoy her freedom to do so. Nice young women were not supposed to know anything about boxing - or that dinners like these even took place, let alone be able to describe the aftermath of one. They weren't supposed to take a frivolous attitude towards drunkenness, either. :)
Braddon was an actress before becoming a writer, when that was anything but respectable, and away from home from quite a young age. Quite likely she did spend time with people like these, and witness scenes such as she describes here. (Not to mention the drunkenness!)
ETA: On the same subject, I can't quite decide if calling a newspaper the Liverpool B. S. was a deliberate dirty joke or just a happy accident. :D
109SqueakyChu
I hope the latter half of this chapter makes more sense to me tomorrow. Truthfully, so much time has gone by, I'd already forgotten all about the Left-Handed Smasher.
So if the Liverpool B.S. is not what it sounds like, what did the "B.S." stand for?
This is one of those chapters that makes me suspect that people didn't know that Braddon was a woman
But her name, written clearly on the book cover, was Mary Elizabeth Braddon. Surely no one thought Mary Elizabeth to be a man's name!
So if the Liverpool B.S. is not what it sounds like, what did the "B.S." stand for?
This is one of those chapters that makes me suspect that people didn't know that Braddon was a woman
But her name, written clearly on the book cover, was Mary Elizabeth Braddon. Surely no one thought Mary Elizabeth to be a man's name!
110lyzard
It is spelled out for us at first as the Liverpool Bold Speaker, and referred to afterwards by the shorter version of its name.
111SqueakyChu
I skipped most of the details of the beginning of this chapter because I just wasn't "getting it". I'll try harder tomorrow.
112lyzard
She published at first as M. E. Braddon, and may have been the first woman writer to habitually use her initials to give herself an androgynous persona. It wasn't until the success of Lady Audley's Secret (about another four novels away) that the public learned for certain that she was "Mary Elizabeth".
113lyzard
Ooh, rampant cross-posting! :)
That's okay, don't worry too much about getting it all. The important part comes after the Smasher and Brandolph have staggered out into the night.
That's okay, don't worry too much about getting it all. The important part comes after the Smasher and Brandolph have staggered out into the night.
114SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 3 - Part 2
...in which the Smasher recognizes the Count de Marolles
1. "...splifigate me if I can call to mind"
means what?
2. I've already totally forgotten all about Mr. Marwood. What has happened to him during all this time?
3. Do I have to remember Brandolph for later?
...in which the Smasher recognizes the Count de Marolles
1. "...splifigate me if I can call to mind"
means what?
2. I've already totally forgotten all about Mr. Marwood. What has happened to him during all this time?
3. Do I have to remember Brandolph for later?
115lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 3 Part 2
1. I think, a deliberate (drunken) mispronunciation of "splificate", which is a slang term meaning to cut in half.
2. He's hiding (not very patiently) in London, while his friends work to prove his innocence. He's safe as long as the authorities don't know he's alive, but he is still a fugitive from the law - and will remain so for the rest of his life unless Raymond's guilt can be proven.
3. No. :)
The significance of all this is that time is getting desperately short: Liverpool at this time was a major seaport for ships sailing for America. Raymond is trying to flee the country and although the Smasher's brand of rough justice has (accidentally) put a stop to it for a day or two, if the "secret police" can't get the evidence they need before he escapes onto a ship, Richard's name will never be properly cleared nor Mr Harding's murderer punished.
1. I think, a deliberate (drunken) mispronunciation of "splificate", which is a slang term meaning to cut in half.
2. He's hiding (not very patiently) in London, while his friends work to prove his innocence. He's safe as long as the authorities don't know he's alive, but he is still a fugitive from the law - and will remain so for the rest of his life unless Raymond's guilt can be proven.
3. No. :)
The significance of all this is that time is getting desperately short: Liverpool at this time was a major seaport for ships sailing for America. Raymond is trying to flee the country and although the Smasher's brand of rough justice has (accidentally) put a stop to it for a day or two, if the "secret police" can't get the evidence they need before he escapes onto a ship, Richard's name will never be properly cleared nor Mr Harding's murderer punished.
116SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 4 - Part 1
...in which Mr. Darley and Mr. Peters find lodging at "The Bargeman's Delight"
1. What is an ostler?
2. Does "pertinaciously" mean stubbornly?
...as in "...pertinaciously refuses to go to the bottom"
3. What is a carpet-bag? I've heard of the "carpet-baggers" (from American history 101), but I don't know who they were, either. :(
4. "by the bye"
What does that phrase mean, and why is it used over and over?
5. "...sawdust and porter"
What is porter?
6. "...legs and bluchers were visible at the top of the steps"
What are bluchers?
7. What are porter pots?
Ends with...
"proceeds to fill man's great consoler - his pipe".
I must remark here how few people I've seen smoking pipes (or even cigars) over recent years. I wish I could get my husband to stop smoking cigarettes. :(
...in which Mr. Darley and Mr. Peters find lodging at "The Bargeman's Delight"
1. What is an ostler?
2. Does "pertinaciously" mean stubbornly?
...as in "...pertinaciously refuses to go to the bottom"
3. What is a carpet-bag? I've heard of the "carpet-baggers" (from American history 101), but I don't know who they were, either. :(
4. "by the bye"
What does that phrase mean, and why is it used over and over?
5. "...sawdust and porter"
What is porter?
6. "...legs and bluchers were visible at the top of the steps"
What are bluchers?
7. What are porter pots?
Ends with...
"proceeds to fill man's great consoler - his pipe".
I must remark here how few people I've seen smoking pipes (or even cigars) over recent years. I wish I could get my husband to stop smoking cigarettes. :(
117lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 6 Part 1
1. Someone who looks after the horses at an inn.
2. It does mean stubborn, but with a sense of being stubborn just to be difficult.
3. Oh, shame! :)
A carpet-bag was, in fact, a bag made of carpet. (I know - gasp!) It was a large, two-handled, hard-wearing bag often used when travelling. Sometimes they came with a rug sewed in which could be unfolded if you were travelling by train or boat.
"Carpetbaggers" were Northerners who moved South after the Civil War, who were viewed as opportunists come to make their fortune off the ruin they'd caused.
The term has various other usages today. It's sometimes used to describe a politician who runs for office in an area without having any background or ties there.
4. It's the original phrasing of "by the way", both probably from the term "bye-ways", meaning side-roads or detours. When you say "By the way---" or "By the bye---" you are interrupting your original point or thought (taking a detour).
5. Dark malt beer - like Guinness.
6. A form of lace-up shoe.
7. Tankards for serving porter in.
______________________________________________
Yes, agreed. I grew up with smoking parents and fortunately it put me off for life. Now I just get annoyed by my brother, who smokes at my house because he's not allowed to at home!
I should warn you, Braddon is about to go off on a slight tangent about tobacco here - in the sense of "By the way---". Bottom line, she doesn't care for it either, but not for health reasons. :)
1. Someone who looks after the horses at an inn.
2. It does mean stubborn, but with a sense of being stubborn just to be difficult.
3. Oh, shame! :)
A carpet-bag was, in fact, a bag made of carpet. (I know - gasp!) It was a large, two-handled, hard-wearing bag often used when travelling. Sometimes they came with a rug sewed in which could be unfolded if you were travelling by train or boat.
"Carpetbaggers" were Northerners who moved South after the Civil War, who were viewed as opportunists come to make their fortune off the ruin they'd caused.
The term has various other usages today. It's sometimes used to describe a politician who runs for office in an area without having any background or ties there.
4. It's the original phrasing of "by the way", both probably from the term "bye-ways", meaning side-roads or detours. When you say "By the way---" or "By the bye---" you are interrupting your original point or thought (taking a detour).
5. Dark malt beer - like Guinness.
6. A form of lace-up shoe.
7. Tankards for serving porter in.
______________________________________________
Yes, agreed. I grew up with smoking parents and fortunately it put me off for life. Now I just get annoyed by my brother, who smokes at my house because he's not allowed to at home!
I should warn you, Braddon is about to go off on a slight tangent about tobacco here - in the sense of "By the way---". Bottom line, she doesn't care for it either, but not for health reasons. :)
118SqueakyChu
who smokes at my house because he's not allowed to at home
Oh, no! :)
Braddon is about to go off on a slight tangent about tobacco here
Now that might be interesting, but I reserve the right to tell you how I feel about that after I read that portion. :)
Oh, no! :)
Braddon is about to go off on a slight tangent about tobacco here
Now that might be interesting, but I reserve the right to tell you how I feel about that after I read that portion. :)
119lyzard
Fair enough! It's not that long a tangent but it does have few obscure references in it.
Interestingly, it also begins by addressing "gentle readers of the fair sex", which again suggests to me that Braddon is trying to project a male persona.
Interestingly, it also begins by addressing "gentle readers of the fair sex", which again suggests to me that Braddon is trying to project a male persona.
120SqueakyChu
it does have few obscure references
Oh, no! Not again!! ;)
Oh, no! Not again!! ;)
121SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 4 - Part 2
...in which two clues are found
1. I need some help with vocabulary...
a. "..ricked his ankle"
b. "...one word of your peroration"
c. "...a good deal of desultory conversation"
d."... puce coloured liquid"
e. "...selected with considerable celerity a key"
f. "a ready reckoner"
2. Why would matching coins implicate Raymond?
...in which two clues are found
1. I need some help with vocabulary...
a. "..ricked his ankle"
b. "...one word of your peroration"
c. "...a good deal of desultory conversation"
d."... puce coloured liquid"
e. "...selected with considerable celerity a key"
f. "a ready reckoner"
2. Why would matching coins implicate Raymond?
122lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 5 Part 2
1a. Twisted or strained.
1b. The end of a speech, usually in the sense of giving a big send-off or getting your audience worked up about something.
1c. Purposeless, or without any effort put in; in this case, talking just for the sake of talking.
1d. Ah, puce! It's...kind of a pinky-purpley-brown colour. Or a browny-pinky-purple colour. :)
(In this case, I think it's used to suggest that there is indeed something wrong with the port!)
1e. Speed, or eagerness.
2. Because Mr Harding is the only person in Slopperton likely to have Indian coinage. So when and under what circumstances did Raymond come into possession of that coin? - which (as we see from the publican being unable to exchange it) can't be used as legal tender, so it couldn't have come to him accidentally.
Just another link in the chain...
1a. Twisted or strained.
1b. The end of a speech, usually in the sense of giving a big send-off or getting your audience worked up about something.
1c. Purposeless, or without any effort put in; in this case, talking just for the sake of talking.
1d. Ah, puce! It's...kind of a pinky-purpley-brown colour. Or a browny-pinky-purple colour. :)
(In this case, I think it's used to suggest that there is indeed something wrong with the port!)
1e. Speed, or eagerness.
2. Because Mr Harding is the only person in Slopperton likely to have Indian coinage. So when and under what circumstances did Raymond come into possession of that coin? - which (as we see from the publican being unable to exchange it) can't be used as legal tender, so it couldn't have come to him accidentally.
Just another link in the chain...
123SqueakyChu
1 f. Is a "ready reckoner" an abacus?
124CDVicarage
#123 Shops and similar businesses used to have books of tables with sums worked out for you called Ready Reckoners - no need after calculators and electronic tills were common.
125SqueakyChu
Thanks, Kerry. That reminds me of the state tax cheat sheets used with paper receipts.
126lyzard
Ooh, hello, Kerry! Nice to havbe you drop by! :)
Yes, what Kerry said. Sorry about the oversight!
Yes, what Kerry said. Sorry about the oversight!
127lyzard
I was thinking how important in the history of crime fiction that scene of Joe's investigation of the murder scene is. I suppose it's particularly striking to me because I've been reading a lot of Victorian true crime and know how many tragic miscarriages of justice occurred around this tiime through sloppy investigation or even the burying of exculpatory evidence. Here, neither the police nor Richard's defence counsel has even bothered with a proper search of the murder scene; the police decide that Richard's guilty and don't look any further, and his counsel takes their word for it - and that does reflect what was going on in the real world.
If you read these sorts of novels, and the purer detective fiction that followed, you can see how the idea of the brilliant private investigator grew out of the public's dissatisfaction with the existing legal system - someone to step in and set things right when the police blundered. Sherlock Holmes was the crystallisation of the idea, but Joe is an early version of the same concept.
If you read these sorts of novels, and the purer detective fiction that followed, you can see how the idea of the brilliant private investigator grew out of the public's dissatisfaction with the existing legal system - someone to step in and set things right when the police blundered. Sherlock Holmes was the crystallisation of the idea, but Joe is an early version of the same concept.
128SqueakyChu
I like that thought. I also like that now we have DNA evidence to further allow convicts who have been jailed in error to be released when proven innocent.
129lyzard
Oh, yes, indeed.
It's one of the things I find most interesting about this early crime fiction, watching the new ideas creep into the stories as the various real-life breakthroughs were made.
It's one of the things I find most interesting about this early crime fiction, watching the new ideas creep into the stories as the various real-life breakthroughs were made.
130SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 5 - Part 1
...in which ???
What's going on here? We know that Raymond is knocked out. So why is everyone just sitting around in the Cherokee's Tavern?
Ends with:
"...was an especial favourite with him."
...in which ???
What's going on here? We know that Raymond is knocked out. So why is everyone just sitting around in the Cherokee's Tavern?
Ends with:
"...was an especial favourite with him."
131lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 5 Part 1
Because they don't "have" him - the Smasher left him lying in the street when he thought a policeman was coming, for fear of getting arrested himself. He was in Liverpool when the attempted arrest of the "Count de Marolles" took place, so he didn't know he had legal grounds to hold him and that, in fact, a policeman was exactly what he needed. Instead, he took off but then sent a telegram to Richard to let him know that their man was in Liverpool and trying to skip the country.
Since Joe was still in Slopperton with Gus, the Cherokees telegraphed him there to relay the message. And now, yes, there's some "sitting around" going on in Liverpool, but perhaps with a purpose...
ETA: Hmm. I'm not sure you can accuse Joe of "just sitting around":
He held strange conferences with them in corners of hostelry in which the trio had taken up their abode; he went out with them, and hovered about the quays and the shipping; he prowled about in the dusk of the evening... :)
Because they don't "have" him - the Smasher left him lying in the street when he thought a policeman was coming, for fear of getting arrested himself. He was in Liverpool when the attempted arrest of the "Count de Marolles" took place, so he didn't know he had legal grounds to hold him and that, in fact, a policeman was exactly what he needed. Instead, he took off but then sent a telegram to Richard to let him know that their man was in Liverpool and trying to skip the country.
Since Joe was still in Slopperton with Gus, the Cherokees telegraphed him there to relay the message. And now, yes, there's some "sitting around" going on in Liverpool, but perhaps with a purpose...
ETA: Hmm. I'm not sure you can accuse Joe of "just sitting around":
He held strange conferences with them in corners of hostelry in which the trio had taken up their abode; he went out with them, and hovered about the quays and the shipping; he prowled about in the dusk of the evening... :)
132SqueakyChu
Okay, he was not just "sitting around". :)
133SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 5 - Part 2
...in which a ship is getting ready to depart from Liverpool to America
ends with...
"...the count de Marolles was not there"
1. Was he still lying unconscious somewhere?
2. What is "P.R."?
...in which a ship is getting ready to depart from Liverpool to America
ends with...
"...the count de Marolles was not there"
1. Was he still lying unconscious somewhere?
2. What is "P.R."?
134lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 5 Part 2
1. I'm running out of opportunities to say this, so...wait and see :)
2. "Prize Ring" - the world of boxing.
1. I'm running out of opportunities to say this, so...wait and see :)
2. "Prize Ring" - the world of boxing.
135SqueakyChu
In my neck of the woods, P.R. is Puerto Rico (or public relations)! :D
137SqueakyChu
I need to skip reading tonight. I'll be back tomorrow.
139SqueakyChu
My older son had surgery this week and came home from the hospital yesterday. He's staying at our house.
141SqueakyChu
He's recovering at home. I think he'll be able to make a full recovery. It will just be a slow process.
142lyzard
Well, do take care of yourself while while you're taking care of him; I hope it all works out well for both of you.
143SqueakyChu
Thanks, Liz.
144SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 5 - Part 3
...in which Count de Marolles is arrested
Truthfully, I had a hard time following what happened in this part of the chapter. I know that Mr. Peters was disguised as a quiet Irishman and that the Count was hauled aboard the ship to America where he was revealed to be in the coffin and then arrested.
1. Who was the "stranger" who accompanied the Count on board?
2. The last lines of this chapter were cute:
"...you've tried this little game once before. This is the second occasion, I understand, on which you've done a sham die. I'd have you beware of the third time. According to superstitious people, it's generally fatal."
...in which Count de Marolles is arrested
Truthfully, I had a hard time following what happened in this part of the chapter. I know that Mr. Peters was disguised as a quiet Irishman and that the Count was hauled aboard the ship to America where he was revealed to be in the coffin and then arrested.
1. Who was the "stranger" who accompanied the Count on board?
2. The last lines of this chapter were cute:
"...you've tried this little game once before. This is the second occasion, I understand, on which you've done a sham die. I'd have you beware of the third time. According to superstitious people, it's generally fatal."
145lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 5 Part 3
What happened in the broader sense was because of the Smasher's intervention, Raymond missed his chance to immediately flee the country on the back of his escape in London, before the police could be widely alerted. He missed the ship that was waiting and was probably too sick for a day or two to do anything. By that time he knew word would be out and that he had to find a way to sneak on board the next ship to America (passenger ships didn't sail every day).
But the critical thing was that the "secret police" were onto the fact that Raymond was in Liverpool somewhere, which allowed Joe to collaborate with the local police and get his forces into place before anyone (dead or alive) could board the ship.
1. The stranger, as we learn in the next chapter, was a clerk at Raymond's bank paid to "escort the dead". (We assume that his job was to open the coffin, once it was in the hold of the passenger ship.)
2. Remember, the original title of this novel was Three Times Dead. :)
What happened in the broader sense was because of the Smasher's intervention, Raymond missed his chance to immediately flee the country on the back of his escape in London, before the police could be widely alerted. He missed the ship that was waiting and was probably too sick for a day or two to do anything. By that time he knew word would be out and that he had to find a way to sneak on board the next ship to America (passenger ships didn't sail every day).
But the critical thing was that the "secret police" were onto the fact that Raymond was in Liverpool somewhere, which allowed Joe to collaborate with the local police and get his forces into place before anyone (dead or alive) could board the ship.
1. The stranger, as we learn in the next chapter, was a clerk at Raymond's bank paid to "escort the dead". (We assume that his job was to open the coffin, once it was in the hold of the passenger ship.)
2. Remember, the original title of this novel was Three Times Dead. :)
146SqueakyChu
1. The stranger, as we learn in the next chapter
Well, I read the chapters in the order they come! :)
2. the original title of this novel was Three Times Dead.
That makes sense!
Have you read The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay? That book also had a live body in a coffin scene. Come to think of it, so did Dracula, if I'm not mistaken.
Well, I read the chapters in the order they come! :)
2. the original title of this novel was Three Times Dead.
That makes sense!
Have you read The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay? That book also had a live body in a coffin scene. Come to think of it, so did Dracula, if I'm not mistaken.
147lyzard
1. I didn't think it was worth a "wait and see" at this stage. :)
We're not supposed to know who he is, beyond someone obviously having been hired to help smuggle Raymond out of the country.
I think in Dracula it was Dracula himself, wasn't it? - I'm not sure if that counts as a live body or not!
We're not supposed to know who he is, beyond someone obviously having been hired to help smuggle Raymond out of the country.
I think in Dracula it was Dracula himself, wasn't it? - I'm not sure if that counts as a live body or not!
148SqueakyChu
It was Dracula in the coffin. So have you read that book yet? We do have that book in common! I loved it!
149lyzard
Me!? I LOVE Dracula!! I think it's terribly underrated, and I'm always trying to force it on people!
And yes, I remembered that I don't have to force it on you. :)
ETA: Since you added a bunch of Gothic novels, you and I have no less than TWENTY books in common!!
And yes, I remembered that I don't have to force it on you. :)
ETA: Since you added a bunch of Gothic novels, you and I have no less than TWENTY books in common!!
150SqueakyChu
Since you added a bunch of Gothic novels, you and I have no less than TWENTY books in common!!
Hey! That is too cool. I think most of those are still on my wishlist, though.
Hey! That is too cool. I think most of those are still on my wishlist, though.
152SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 6 - Part 1
in which the trial of Raymond begins
1. What is a screw steamer?
2. What is an assize?
Ends with...
...it was a dead body!"
in which the trial of Raymond begins
1. What is a screw steamer?
2. What is an assize?
Ends with...
...it was a dead body!"
153lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 6 Part 1
1. It's a design of steamship in which the ship is driven by underwater propellers.
2. We did discuss that waaaaaay back, back when Richard was in prison (let's see...Book 1 Chapter 8!) - an assize was a periodic court held in country areas that did not have permanent courts and judges, where all the cases built up over several months were heard within two or three weeks. It was a system that persisted in England until well into the 20th century.
Richard sat in jail for three months before his murder charge was heard; Jabez - I think we can call him that again now! :) - has to sit in his cell even longer waiting for his trial.
1. It's a design of steamship in which the ship is driven by underwater propellers.
2. We did discuss that waaaaaay back, back when Richard was in prison (let's see...Book 1 Chapter 8!) - an assize was a periodic court held in country areas that did not have permanent courts and judges, where all the cases built up over several months were heard within two or three weeks. It was a system that persisted in England until well into the 20th century.
Richard sat in jail for three months before his murder charge was heard; Jabez - I think we can call him that again now! :) - has to sit in his cell even longer waiting for his trial.
154SqueakyChu
2. Oh, yeah. I remember you telling me that. I wish I could remember the words. I remember the idea, though.
155SqueakyChu
Book the Sixth - Chapter 6 - Part 2
...in which Jabez North is declared "Guilty!"
1. "...elevated his arched eyebrows superciliously"
What does superciliously mean?
2. Where did Jabez North get all those people to testify in his defense?
3. I liked Jabez North's final speech.
4. Why did Jabez North Choose to die by suicide?
5. Was the four part melodrama an actual play, or was it a four-part exhibit at the Chamber of Horrors?
We're coming to...
...the final chapter! :D
...in which Jabez North is declared "Guilty!"
1. "...elevated his arched eyebrows superciliously"
What does superciliously mean?
2. Where did Jabez North get all those people to testify in his defense?
3. I liked Jabez North's final speech.
4. Why did Jabez North Choose to die by suicide?
5. Was the four part melodrama an actual play, or was it a four-part exhibit at the Chamber of Horrors?
We're coming to...
...the final chapter! :D
156lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 6 Part 2
1. In a way that expresses contempt or disdain.
2. {*cough*} He's still a wealthy man. (I'm not sure they had Swiss bank accounts as such then, but I'd bet he has a good stash somewhere.)
3. Great criminals always have great closing speeches. :)
4. Partly to avoid the ignominy of a public execution (and to disappoint anyone who might have been looking forward to it), partly of a way of exercising control over his own destiny and taking his fate out of the hands of others.
5. It was a play based (loosely) on Jabez's life and career; although like many famous murderers, he was also turned into an exhibit in the wax museum's Chamber of Horrors.
We're coming to...
...the final chapter! :D
Yes, yes...I know. :)
1. In a way that expresses contempt or disdain.
2. {*cough*} He's still a wealthy man. (I'm not sure they had Swiss bank accounts as such then, but I'd bet he has a good stash somewhere.)
3. Great criminals always have great closing speeches. :)
4. Partly to avoid the ignominy of a public execution (and to disappoint anyone who might have been looking forward to it), partly of a way of exercising control over his own destiny and taking his fate out of the hands of others.
5. It was a play based (loosely) on Jabez's life and career; although like many famous murderers, he was also turned into an exhibit in the wax museum's Chamber of Horrors.
We're coming to...
...the final chapter! :D
Yes, yes...I know. :)
157SqueakyChu
The Trail of the Serpent - Book the Sixth - Chapter 7
...in which Richard sails for South America
1. "...packed in a casket of buhl"
What is that?
2. Why did the author not bring out Gaston's story more in the end rather than reveal what happened to him all at once (in one breath, so to speak). Was that so as not to deviate from Richard's triumphant rise in the esteem of London citizenry and the celebration which accompanied that?
Which brings us to...
The End! :D
...in which Richard sails for South America
1. "...packed in a casket of buhl"
What is that?
2. Why did the author not bring out Gaston's story more in the end rather than reveal what happened to him all at once (in one breath, so to speak). Was that so as not to deviate from Richard's triumphant rise in the esteem of London citizenry and the celebration which accompanied that?
Which brings us to...
The End! :D
158SqueakyChu
Thank you again, lyzard, from the bottom of my heart for your devoted tutoring. It has been, and continues to be, a very special and fun part of my LibraryThing experience.
I strongly encourage others to jump on the "tutored read" bandwagon and see for themselves how terrific it is.
Thanks to all the lurkers as well for following the adventures of Richard Marwood and Jabez North in The Trail of the Serpent.
I strongly encourage others to jump on the "tutored read" bandwagon and see for themselves how terrific it is.
Thanks to all the lurkers as well for following the adventures of Richard Marwood and Jabez North in The Trail of the Serpent.
159lyzard
Book 6 Chapter 7
1. Buhl is a form of decorative inlay used in woodworking - making inset patterns in the wood by filling carved spaces with metal trim or materials like mother-of-pearl or tortoiseshell.
2. Partly that, but also partly because we were given much of Gaston's story back when we thought we were being given the story of "Captain Lansdown"; what we are told here are just the bits that would definitively given away Gaston's identity if they were told at that earlier stage.
1. Buhl is a form of decorative inlay used in woodworking - making inset patterns in the wood by filling carved spaces with metal trim or materials like mother-of-pearl or tortoiseshell.
2. Partly that, but also partly because we were given much of Gaston's story back when we thought we were being given the story of "Captain Lansdown"; what we are told here are just the bits that would definitively given away Gaston's identity if they were told at that earlier stage.
160lyzard
And congratulations to you!! I know that you had some struggles making it all the way through this one, so well done you for bravely soldiering on! :)
161SqueakyChu
I know that you had some struggles making it all the way through this one
I did, so thanks!
I did, so thanks!
163SqueakyChu
I don't think it was something with which you could have helped. The story simply did not grab me. I'm not a fan of contemporary crime novels either. I got really tired of looking up all those footnotes about people whom I would never remember anyway. I disliked those wordy tangents immensely.
It's interesting to me, though, to read the reviews of others who did like this book as they tell what made it so great for them.
I didn't care most of the characters, either. Joseph Peters was a rather interesting character, but we didn't hear about him very much. Valerie's father, rather than being funny, seemed rather callous.
Of all the books we've read together, I think this is the one I liked the least. My favorite was The Monk...but you probably could also have guessed that. :D
It's interesting to me, though, to read the reviews of others who did like this book as they tell what made it so great for them.
I didn't care most of the characters, either. Joseph Peters was a rather interesting character, but we didn't hear about him very much. Valerie's father, rather than being funny, seemed rather callous.
Of all the books we've read together, I think this is the one I liked the least. My favorite was The Monk...but you probably could also have guessed that. :D
164lyzard
I suppose it's attraction for me is exactly the extent to which it refuses to follow the conventions of most novels of its time, and even of its school of fiction. It doesn't have a conventional hero or heroine, it spends very little time thinking about "romance", it isn't much impressed by the upper-classes and it takes the lower classes seriously as characters. There's a lot of experimentation in this book that sets it apart from others of its type - although of course you need a good familiarity with what this novel is pushing against to see what it's trying to do.
The shifting perspective is the thing that keeps it closest to other novels of this sort, but certainly that can make it harder to follow than a plot with a single major character.
Anyway - live and learn! Back to the Gothics??
The shifting perspective is the thing that keeps it closest to other novels of this sort, but certainly that can make it harder to follow than a plot with a single major character.
Anyway - live and learn! Back to the Gothics??
165SqueakyChu
Back to the Gothics??
Yes!!
Not yet, though. We'll need to wait until I finish working on getting my medical coding CEUs and Passover is over as I'm hosting Seder for 20 in our house this year. Passover comes out at the end of March. I know you're busy with Dr. Thorne now so you won't get bored in the meantime. :)
Yes!!
Not yet, though. We'll need to wait until I finish working on getting my medical coding CEUs and Passover is over as I'm hosting Seder for 20 in our house this year. Passover comes out at the end of March. I know you're busy with Dr. Thorne now so you won't get bored in the meantime. :)
166luvamystery65
Marking my spot on thread II. Now on to Book the fourth.
167luvamystery65
I finished this yesterday and it was fantastic!
Liz what else would you suggest that is like this? Another by Braddon? Collins?
Liz what else would you suggest that is like this? Another by Braddon? Collins?
168lyzard
Whoo!!
Another by Braddon? Collins?
Yes, and yes. :D
If you haven't read Collins, you definitely should - it's hard to go past his Big Three of The Moonstone, The Woman In White and Armadale, but many of his books are available and most of them are worth reading. The Law And The Lady is a fascinating one, with a fabulous lead character (a very strong-willed woman who acts as a proto-detective). No Name is another possibility.
As for Braddon, her books are not nearly so easy to get hold of, which makes recommendations difficult. (I'm actually trying to read her novels in publication order; it's turning into an expensive hobby!) Lady Audley's Secret is the obvious answer, but personally I think Aurora Floyd is a much better book. It's a Virago, and it has also been reissued quite recently by Penguin (I think), so you should be able to track down a copy.
Another by Braddon? Collins?
Yes, and yes. :D
If you haven't read Collins, you definitely should - it's hard to go past his Big Three of The Moonstone, The Woman In White and Armadale, but many of his books are available and most of them are worth reading. The Law And The Lady is a fascinating one, with a fabulous lead character (a very strong-willed woman who acts as a proto-detective). No Name is another possibility.
As for Braddon, her books are not nearly so easy to get hold of, which makes recommendations difficult. (I'm actually trying to read her novels in publication order; it's turning into an expensive hobby!) Lady Audley's Secret is the obvious answer, but personally I think Aurora Floyd is a much better book. It's a Virago, and it has also been reissued quite recently by Penguin (I think), so you should be able to track down a copy.
169luvamystery65
>168 lyzard: What to chose?
You have given me much to think about Liz. I am heavily leaning to The Law and The Lady. Now to track down a pretty copy. I'll let you know what I decide to tackle from this list.
You have given me much to think about Liz. I am heavily leaning to The Law and The Lady. Now to track down a pretty copy. I'll let you know what I decide to tackle from this list.
170lyzard
Ooh, interesting! The Law And The Lady also has one of the most bizarre supporting characters in all of Victorian literature. :)
171CDVicarage
>168 lyzard: Remember, if you are happy to read on an e-reader, most of these are available free from Project Gutenberg and other similar sites. Although I have paper copies of several, I tend to read on my kindle as the type is often better. My Virago copies of Aurora Floyd and Lady Audley's Secret look as if they may have been facsimile prints of the original victorian versions.
