The Monk by Matthew Gregory Lewis - lyzard tutoring SqueakyChu - Part 2

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The Monk by Matthew Gregory Lewis - lyzard tutoring SqueakyChu - Part 2

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1lyzard
Oct 28, 2012, 6:27 pm



Hello, all! Welcome to the continuation of the tutored read of Matthew Gregory Lewis's The Monk, from 1796. Discussion of Volumes 1 and 2 may be found in the first thread.

2klobrien2
Editado: Oct 28, 2012, 6:42 pm

Ooh, I love that cover! I read out of a collection of Four Gothic Novels and there's a picture of a crazy-eyed religious lady on the cover. I'll go see if I can find the cover and post it here.

I really like this cover, too:



Here's the cover from the volume I read:



Karen O.

3lyzard
Oct 28, 2012, 7:08 pm

This is certainly a novel that gives designers a lot of scope! :)

I posted a shockingly bad cover on my thread - you've inspired me to re-post it here:

4klobrien2
Oct 28, 2012, 7:10 pm

I love it! It looks like one of the bad paperback novels from the '40s. Yikes!

Karen O.

5lyzard
Oct 28, 2012, 7:10 pm

...or like what it actually is, a bad paperback novel from the '60s. :)

6klobrien2
Oct 28, 2012, 7:16 pm

Yup! :)

7rebeccanyc
Editado: Oct 28, 2012, 7:25 pm

My cover was the first one in part 2. I didn't understand it until I finished the novel. But having done so, I think it is great.

8SqueakyChu
Oct 28, 2012, 7:28 pm

> 7

That is really a creepy cover, Rebecca!

9lyzard
Editado: Oct 28, 2012, 8:07 pm

Okay, I'm going to move this over here:

You should note that Matilda refers to the demon as "Lucifer", which suggests that she has succeeded in conjuring up Satan himself.

I did notice that she called him Lucifer. Are there more demons than just Lucifer? Why is he called Lucifer and not Satan?

In Hebrew we call Satan "Ha-Satan", meaning "the Satan". Perhaps I need to explore the world of Satan or the Satan more closely! :)


This is actually one of the murkier parts of the story, where it really does matter which version of the Bible you're reading, but broadly speaking---Lucifer was an angel who rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven, so a fallen angel. "Satan" is a Hebrew word meaning to oppose, or to obstruct; but the use of "Ha-Satan" is generally taken to mean a particular person is being referred to - the Satan, meaning someone called Satan who opposes God. Over time, Satan, the Christian devil and Lucifer have tended to get bundled up into a single entity, though it is not quite clear that this was originally intended.

(I think! This really isn't my area of expertise!)

recently it has certainly been analysed from that perspective.

...as recently as 5:52pm tonight! :)


:D

10SqueakyChu
Oct 28, 2012, 8:58 pm

I think! This really isn't my area of expertise!)

Actually, I think your explanation is right on the money. Reading more about the Jewish version of Ha-Satan, I did find that such a "Satan" was an adversary of G-d, not the diametric opposite of G-d (where G-d has powers of good and Satan has powers of evil) . Being a monotheostic religion, Judaism would not support belief in great powers of such an adversary.

Generally the term "Satan", from what I've read tonight online, is mostly used metaphorically. It is meant to indicate the "Yetzer ha-rah", the evil inclination of man, as opposed to the Yetzer ha-tov", the good inclination of man. Man has free will and determines on his own in which direction to go.

11lyzard
Editado: Oct 28, 2012, 9:12 pm

Also from before:

Are there more demons than just Lucifer?

Yes, there are a whole series of subordinate demons, each of whom has knowledge or "expertise" in a particular area. Usually people try to summon up the one who can best give them what they want, but Matilda seems to have skipped this approach and gone straight to the head man. :)

12SqueakyChu
Editado: Oct 28, 2012, 9:29 pm

> 11

Yes, there are a whole series of subordinate demons

Is this true just for Catholicism, or is this found in other Christian religions as well?

13lyzard
Editado: Oct 28, 2012, 9:35 pm

That's Christian, not just Catholic. However, Catholic teaching is generally more hard-line than the other demoninations about angels and demons being real rather than symbolic.

14Deern
Oct 29, 2012, 2:53 am

Don't know if it's still intermission time - just want to delurk and say that I am still happily following. In fact this is the only thread I am reading daily, and I am just a bit too stressed by RL to post anything anywhere. I finished the book on Thursday because I didn't want to take it into November.

The cover in #3 reminds me of those cheap John Sinclair horror trash magazine covers.

I'd like to add that some harsh statements re. Catholicism in this book have some truth in them until today. Just learned yesterday about a politician here in Italy who embezzled(?) millions of party money, was sentenced to prison and now hides in a monastery which gives him a kind of immunity. And I remember that Mr Berlusconi, when his wife left him after she found out about his affair with a minor, publicly declared he'd do a pilgrimage to a monastery to atone. Those things seem unbelievable and 'out of the time' for most of us, but are still reality.

15CDVicarage
Oct 29, 2012, 5:29 am

I'm still lurking, and reading at the same rate as Madeleine - it suits me too. I think I know enough about the religious issues to get through the story on my own but the tutoring is adding to my understanding and enjoyment.

16SqueakyChu
Editado: Oct 29, 2012, 8:56 am

> 14

Don't know if it's still intermission time

It's still INTERMISSION (started on the previous page) so, all lurkers, feel free to post your comments or greetings at this time. It's fun to hear from all of you.

17klobrien2
Oct 29, 2012, 3:49 pm

Yay, it's still intermission! So, then, I want to say that I'm finding the discussion about Lucifer/The Devil/Satan very interesting. If I remember right, Lucifer in the Bible was a beautiful angel (although, fallen). I wonder when and where the concept of Lucifer became the one that those of Christian heritage think of, with horns, and pointed tail, and all red, and very scary. For Christians, does that possibly come from the New Testament book of Revelations? Lots of scary stuff there.

The way that Lucifer first presents as the beautiful young man, then as the ugly, terrifying beast, also shows him as a trickster, a shape-shifter. That "beautiful" does not equate to "good."

I've really enjoyed this read; I'll look forward to your discussions as you wind up.

Karen O.

18lyzard
Oct 29, 2012, 5:50 pm

I will now call END OF INTERMISSION in case Madeline is ready to proceed, but I hope our lurkers will continue to contribute their comments.

Nathalie, I guess there has always been a tension between the traditional practices of the church and the changing views of modern society - particularly for people who are, as it were, caught between those two positions. However, I'm not sure we should turn to Gothic novels for our information on what's wrong with the Catholic church. :)

Hi, Karen. There is in fact an enormous amount of confusion out there amongst the various texts and translations; it certainly isn't a simple matter of "Lucifer was cast out of heaven and became the devil aka Satan" (though then again, some people clearly think it is that simple!). It seems that "Lucifer" as a name, as opposed to the Latin term for "morning star", was quite late in emerging - but the process seems similar to that which occured for Satan, with something that was originally an entity becoming increasingly identified as a person.

Many pagan gods had horns and a tail, and some people believe that these characteristics were transferred to the Christian devil when paganism was being suppressed.

19SqueakyChu
Oct 29, 2012, 6:26 pm

Liz, I am now in the midst of Hurricane Sandy which is battering the east coast of the U.S. It is a HUGE storm in which I am expecting electric and internet outages which may last many days. Over one milllion people have already lost power here in the U.S.

If you don't hear from me for a long interval, know that I am safe and will be back after the storm passes. I'll be home from work tomorrow. Our state governor has issued a mandate that no one but essential health care workers with an ID can now be on the roads. It's scary!

20lyzard
Oct 29, 2012, 6:34 pm

That is very scary.

Stay safe, and if you can't post I promise I won't sit here thinking hard thoughts about you.

Or only a very little. :)

21SqueakyChu
Oct 29, 2012, 8:11 pm

The Monk - Chapter 3 - Volume 1 - Part 1

1. What am I supposed to get out of the poem that opens this chapter?

2. Theodore was the only one, who exerted himself to realize his Master's Chimoeras

What does Chimoeras mean?

3. He became a very Proteus...

What does that mean?

4. What is a Lay-Sister?

5. Wouldn't it be suspect for a Beggar to have a Guitar (a valuable musical instrument)?

6. Why did the Lay-Sister give the "Beggar" soup of a better quality (plus the Porteress gave him fruit and confections) than was given to the other Beggars?

7. Why was a youth with "delicacy of features, the beauty of his hair, and the sweetness and grace which accompanied all his actions" considered to be the perfect young man for the Church? This sounds more like the description of a young female than a young man.

8. Why was the Lay-Sister giving out information about Agnes to a "Beggar"? Wasn't the Lay-Sister suspicious of why a Beggar was so interested in Agnes' fate?

9. Why did the Lady Prioress not require proof of who the "Beggar" was?

10. Were there really such places as Terra Incognita, Hottentot University, and Silesia?

--------------------notes to myself-------------------

page 286

Ends with:
For what regards the loss of my eye..."

22lyzard
Editado: Oct 29, 2012, 9:19 pm

Glad to see you're still hanging in there!

The Monk - Chapter 3 - Volume 1 - Part 1

1. That's from Shakespeare's Cymbeline - it's a reference to the story of Sextus Tarquinius, a son of the last of the Roman kings, who raped Lucretia, his cousin's wife, who then committed suicide. The incident sparked an uprising that led to the overthrow of the monarchy and the establishment of the republic. Lucretia is often found acting as a symbolic figure in literature and poetry. As well as using her in this way in Cymbeline, Shakespeare wrote a very lengthy poem called The Rape Of Lucrece.

2. A chimera is, mythologically, an animal made up of various parts from different animals (lion, snake, goat, traditionally). A "chimera" in this context means a wild dream or fantasy, something that doesn't make sense. It refers to Raymond's plans for rescuing Agnes, when everyone else believes that she is dead. Theodore encourages Raymond to go on making his wild plans, and tries to help him carry them out, because he thinks his doing so is the only thing keeping him alive.

3. Proteus was a minor god who was capable of assuming other forms; it was a term often used to describe an actor who could successfully play many different parts. Here Theodore keeps assuming different disguises and characters to try and find out what is happening in the convent.

4. There used to be (it has been abolished) a "class system" in convents based on birth, wealth and particularly education. Choir-sisters could read and speak Latin and so were given more prestigious tasks associated with religious rituals. They also had higher standing in the community and were involved with the running of the convent. Lay-sisters were poorer, less educated girls, often from the country, who were given all the lowlier convent tasks like cleaning, and had no say in how things were run.

5. Think of him as a busker rather than a beggar; many poor people earned a living as street performers, and some became very popular.

6. Because she enjoyed his music so much, and because of his superior manners. (Also, he's sucking up to her to gain entrance to the convent.)

7. Yes, but think of who's writing this. :)

There was a kind of competetion to get better-looking / wealthier / higher-born people to join convents and monasteries; it was thought to increase the prestige of the order. Finding a suitable person to enter the monastery would increase the ties between the two institutions, and (hopefully) impress Ambrosio.

8. Lay-sisters are uneducated and therefore stupid. :)

Probably Theodore told her a story about how he used to play music for Agnes and her family before she entered the convent, so that he had an excuse to ask after her.

9. Well, a beggar wouldn't have any, for one thing. But it's all about the externals: Theodore is good-looking and well-mannered, so that qualifies him in spite of his poverty and lack of birth. And don't forget, Ambrosio was an unknown orphan when the monastery took him in.

10. No, not at all: Theodore is seeing how many silly stories he can get the nuns to swallow. Here again we find the Protestant view of Catholicism as basically a form of "superstition", believed in only by the simple-minded and credulous. The implication here is that if the nuns can believe in Catholicism, they'll believe anything.

"Terra Incognita" means unknown land; it was a term for that part of the world that had not been explored and mapped. The Hottentots were an African tribe from what is today South Africa, who are now known as the Khoikhoi. Silesia was the name for a region in Central Europe (most of Poland, part of Germany and the Czech Republic).

23SqueakyChu
Oct 29, 2012, 10:02 pm

7. Yes, but think of who's writing this.

Actually, I did have the author in mind when I wrote this question.

So far, so good, with the rain, wind, and electric service (and hoping this good fortune will continue).

24lyzard
Oct 29, 2012, 10:06 pm

Fingers crossed for you!

25SqueakyChu
Editado: Oct 29, 2012, 10:20 pm

Thanks! I'm very worried about folks to the north of me, particularly in New York City and along the New Jersey shore line.

26SqueakyChu
Editado: Oct 30, 2012, 6:51 pm

Weather update: I made it through Hurricane Sandy without loss of power or internet, without trees down, and without flooding. I was given the option of whether or not I wanted to go to work today after 12 noon, but I opted for paid time off. :)

My reading of The Monk will continue uninterrupted.

My heart goes out to those elsewhere in the U.S. and the Caribbean who are still suffering from the adverse effects of Hurricane Sandy.

27lyzard
Oct 30, 2012, 5:57 pm

Glad to hear you were spared, Madeline.

28SqueakyChu
Editado: Oct 30, 2012, 9:22 pm

The Monk - Chapter 3 - Volume 1 - Part 2

1. Is Loretto a real place?

2. how dangerous it is for young Women to abandon themselves to their passions

Is he saying how bad it is for them to have sex?

3. Are not the People all Blacks in Denmark?

What precipitated this question?

4. They are of a delicate pea-green with flame-coloured hair and whiskers.

Good answer!

5. I remember seeing several of them myself.

The Prioress is lying.

6. Are there such figures as the Oak-King, the Water-King, The Fire-King, and the Cloud-King in Danish lore?

7. I actually liked that ballad! :)

8. He abandoned the hope of equalling Blondel

What does that mean?

9. I don't understand the note from St. Ursula. What is she trying to say?

10. Are all gothic novels quite this complicated?

---------------notes to myself--------------------

page 295

Ends with:
His disappointment was excessive...

29lyzard
Editado: Oct 30, 2012, 10:01 pm

The Monk - Chapter 3 - Volume 1 - Part 2

1. Loretto (correctly spelled Loreto; "Loretto" is in Austria) is a real town in Italy that was a frequent destination for Catholic pilgrims. It holds the Basilica della Santa Casa, which tradition says was the house of the Virgin Mary.

2. Not exactly - a woman's "passions" are what lead her to have sex. :)

Although the "passion" (strong emotion) most commonly associated with women was of course love, any passion was generally considered likely to lead a woman into trouble.

3. It's probably just meant as another illustration of how ignorant the lay-sisters are. There may have been a more topical reason why she would have thought that in particular - or perhaps its just because the people of Denmark were mostly Lutheran, and were therefore "savages" (and therefore black).

4. Now that I can't explain!

5. Portress, not Prioress - the nun who looks after the door. The Prioress, whatever her other shortcomings, is an educated woman: Theodore wouldn't have gotten away with this stuff with her.

But yes, the Portress is lying, or rather bragging. :)

6. I believe that these nature-sprites were German rather than Danish (although they might have been both) - the verses are Lewis's translation of a poem called "Der Wassermann" by Johann Herder. He later published a collection called Tales Of Wonder that included several poems on these figures.

7. Good!!

8. According to the story (I'm not sure how much is true and how much legend, because it tends to turn up in versions of Robin Hood), after Richard the Lion-Heart was captured and held to ransom by the Austrians on his way home from the Crusades, his minstrel Blondel found out where he was being held by travelling from castle to castle playing a song he knew Richard would recognise and respond to, until finally he heard a voice singing back to him.

Theodore is trying to find out if Agnes is alive by playing a song he knows she will recognise, but there is no response.

9. That she knows what happened to Agnes, and it isn't good. She advises Raymond to get his uncle (the cardinal) to have her arrested, so that she can be "forced" to tell what she knows - but she advises him not to try and execute the warrant (to use modern terminology) until the moment when the nuns are all outside of the convent during the Festival of St. Clare.

10. No, most of them are much more complicated! :)

30SqueakyChu
Editado: Oct 31, 2012, 9:42 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 1 - Part 3

1. Who is Don Ramirez de Mello?

2. How come the Myrtle didn't interefere with Elvira's sudden appearance?

3. I was shocked at the death of Elvira. Now, Matilda, for sure will suspect that Elvira's death was at the hands of the Monk...for he would have been the only person in that residence at that time...and he has no sense of right or wrong any longer.

------------------
-----------------

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 2 - Part 1

4. Why was Matilda still encouraging Ambrosia to rape Antonia?

5. Now that Elvira is dead, who would protect Antonia?

Oh. Now I see that the answer to my question is either Dame Jacintha or Leonella.

6. Antonia surely chose an odd reading to elevate her spirits!

----------------notes to myself-----------------

page 316

Ends with:
The perusal of this story was ill calculated to dispel Antonia's melancholy.

31lyzard
Oct 31, 2012, 9:58 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 1 - Part 3

1. He is an officer of the Spanish Inquisition, who is given the authority to arrest the Prioress and question her about Agnes.

This is one of the rare Gothic novels to have something more or less positive to say about the Inquisition - even if it goes no further than, "At least it's less corrupt than the church."

2. The myrtle unlocks doors and renders Antonia insensible, but it has no automatic effect upon Elvira. Possibly Ambrosio should have tried it on her first, or at least locked the door between her room and Antonia's - but he was too carried away by lust to be thinking clearly.

3. ...and neither does she, if she ever did...

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 2 - Part 1

4. Wait and see.

5. NO-ONE.

6. The perusal of this story was ill-calculated to dispel Antonia's melancholy...

Melancholy! Whoo!! :)

In true late 18th century, sentimental fashion, there probably weren't any cheerful works around for Antonia to read. The unhappy ending was very popular at the time.

32SqueakyChu
Oct 31, 2012, 10:46 pm

Melancholy!

Haha!

I liked that weird ballad. It was creepy, but fun.

33lyzard
Nov 1, 2012, 12:17 am

A lot of people did---after The Monk was published, "The Story Of Alonzo The Brave And Fair Imogene" was reproduced in various anthologies and even turned into a play.

34SqueakyChu
Nov 1, 2012, 10:44 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 2 - Part 2

1. Is there some significance to the number three (i.e. the clock struck three, "in three days")?

2. Why did Jacintha abandon Antonia and leave the ghost to Antonia and Flora?

3. only recovered from one fit to fall into another...

Whar exactly does that mean?

4. Jacintha Zuniga

Why here all of a sudden is a last name introduced? I guess so that Ambrosia will distiguish Jacintha Zuniga from all the other Jacinthas we've met in this novel. ;)

5. I think Elvira's ghost came back to avenge her death by the hands of Ambrosio.

6. ..to lay Elvira's ghost in the Red Sea

Why in the Red Sea?

7. How does Jacintha know that Elvira got into her daughter's room through the keyhole? Can't ghosts walk through walls?

8. eat the wing of a Chicken

I know that formerly Catholics were not supposed to eat meat on Friday. They could only eat fish. I forgot the reason why. Was it the act of giving up something pleasurable that was the reason?

9. Her account was still so prolix...

What does prolix mean?

10. So Jacintha is inviting Ambrosio into her house?! Oh, no!

--------------------notes to myself--------------------

page 325

Ends wuth:
Did Donna Antonia also see the Ghost?

35lyzard
Nov 1, 2012, 10:53 pm

Before I answer your questions, there was something I meant to point out about this section of the story, namely the deep and general cynicism that underlies the overt anti-Catholicism.

Right from the beginning, Elvira has treated both Lorenzo and Raymond with absolute scrupulousness and honesty, refusing to act against her principles by taking favours from either of them without the permission and approval of the heads of their households, and keeping Antonia secluded rather than pushing her at Lorenzo.

In any other novel, this honourable behaviour would no doubt be lauded and rewarded, with fortunes and marriages for all; here, Elvira holding Lorenzo and Raymond at arms'-length simply means that she and Antonia are left vulnerable - whereas if she'd thrown her scruples to the wind and leapt at Lorenzo's offer, they both would have been safe.

36SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 1, 2012, 10:58 pm

I really liked Elvira* and her scruples. She was overly cautious, and rightly so, as she loved her only daughter so much. I imagine that, in times such as they were then, a woman without a man to "protect" her was really in harm's way most of the time even without the financial security a man could provide.

*although I'm not sure I like her as a ghost!

37lyzard
Editado: Nov 1, 2012, 11:25 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 2 - Part 2

1. Caballistic combinations like this are quite common in supernatural tales; they were thought to have powers attached to them. Remember the Bleeding nun appearing on the fifth day of the fifth month...

By the way, notice how much Antonia scolding herself for getting frightened of servants' tales and "superstitions" here resembles the behaviour of Madeline in Clermont, who went through the same thing. This was a very common scenario in Gothic novels - although of course, in The Monk there is one significant difference...inasmuch as the ghost is real! Like the fate of Elvira, this is another instance of Lewis deliberately undermining the conventions of this sort of novel

2. Partly because she's terrified, mostly to go and get a priest to exorcise her house.

3. Exactly what it says - Antonia has literally been "frightened into fits". I have no idea if terror can actually induce a fit, let alone a series of them, but like brain fever this is a common scenario in novels of this period.

4. Everyone does have have surname - except Ambrosio, because he was abandoned as a baby, and the servants, because they're not important - but it's usually only mentioned once.

5. Wait and see.

6. It was a tradition - English, not Spanish, though! - that the Red Sea was a kind of prison for ghosts, and if you could "lay a ghost in the Red Sea" there was least chance of it coming back to bother you again, but I don't know the origin of it.

Here's an excerpt from a comic poem by Thomas Love Peacock from the early 19th century:

IN LIFE three ghostly friars were we,
And now three friarly ghosts we be.
Around our shadowy table placed,
The spectral bowl before us floats:
With wine that none but ghosts can taste,
We wash our unsubstantial throats.
Three merry ghosts — three merry ghosts —
three merry ghosts are we:
Let the ocean be Port, and we'll think it good sport
To be laid in that Red Sea.


7. I wouldn't like to say what they can do! :)

In some stories ghosts make themselves like smoke to go through gaps like keyholes because they can't pass through solid objects like doors.

8. They're still not supposed to. Abstaining from meat on Friday was an act of penance that all Catholics are supposed to observe, although these days it is often only observed during Lent or on other particularly holy days. Good Friday is supposed to be a day of fasting.

Meat used to be a luxury item, and therefore asking people to abstain was viewed as requiring some sacrifice. These days there are so many dietary options (and so many vegetarians) that this particular act is sometimes felt to have lost its significance.

9. Going on and on and on and on and...

10. And again, she thinks she's doing the good and right thing...

38lyzard
Nov 1, 2012, 11:24 pm

>>#36

That's absolutely right!

Well, being murdered will do that to you...

39SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 2, 2012, 12:28 am

6. the Red Sea...

Is that the Red Sea that I swam in when I was in Israel (well, really the former Israel as I was in the Sinai Peninsula at the time)? How were the ghost supposed to get there? The Red Sea is nowhere near England or Spain!

How would you lay a ghost in the Red Sea? I'm sure that they would not go there willingly! Can a ghost be slain and laid to rest? Would a ghost be sent there by incantation?

7. I wouldn't like to say what they can do!

Haha!

In some stories ghosts make themselves like smoke to go through gaps like keyholes because they can't pass through solid objects like doors.

In some stories ghosts make themselves like smoke to go through gaps like keyholes because they can't pass through solid objects like doors.

Then I guess what a ghost can do depends on its own individual characteristics and abilities. :D

an act of penance

Does this mean a sacrifice to atone for one's sins? If so, why did it have to happen every week? I thought the church ruled that it was no longer mandatory, or am I wrong?

These days there are so many dietary options (and so many vegetarians) that this particular act is sometimes felt to have lost its significance.

I heartily agree with this. For some, nowadays, eating meat would seem to be the penalty!

What was the significance of eating fish on Friday? Was it only because it was an alternative to meat, or did fish have a religious meaning?

40lyzard
Editado: Nov 2, 2012, 12:21 am

That's the Red Sea, all right, or so I suppose. Ghosts can be laid in a variety of ways - like the Bleeding Nun, who was laid by Raymond finding her body and seeing that she got a proper burial. The Red Sea is treated in these stories like a kind of prison for ghosts, but I can't find out why. It has been suggested that "Red" is a corruption of "read" - one of the more common ways to lay a ghost is to get a priest or a minister to read verses from the Bible to it, to drive it away. (Presumably this is what Jacinta wants of Ambrosio.)

41SqueakyChu
Nov 2, 2012, 12:28 am

Interesting! I wonder how the Red Sea got to be the literary resting place for ghosts? I never heard of that before.

42SqueakyChu
Nov 2, 2012, 12:32 am

In conjunction with the Israelites leaving Egypt during the time of Moses, the Red Sea was throught to be a "Reed Sea", an area of tall reeds rather than deep water.

Anyway, I guess the English folk and the Spaniards of our novel wanted all ghosts to be as far away from themselves as possible!

43lyzard
Nov 2, 2012, 12:32 am

I will try to find out something more about this over the weekend.

44SqueakyChu
Nov 2, 2012, 12:33 am

Looking forward to it.

45lyzard
Nov 2, 2012, 1:32 am

Hmm...

>> Hereford & Worcester - Paranormal Database Records
>> Location: Beoley - Exact location unknown
>> Further Comments: A ghost that haunted this building was exorcised to the Red Sea for fifty years. When this time expired, the ghost came back, extremely upset about its forced vacation.

46lyzard
Nov 2, 2012, 1:37 am

You know, now that I've started to look, there are squillions of references to this out there, though not many explanations. One suggestion it's Biblical. The search goes on...

47lyzard
Editado: Nov 2, 2012, 6:42 am

>> Many traditional tales, especially in the west of England, end with the exorcism of the ghost to some lonely pool, or far away to the Red Sea...

>> According to folk legends, ghosts could be drowned in the Red Sea...

But so far, no-one will tell me why.

Hmm.

From Ritual Protection Marks In Wookey Hole And Long Hole, Somerset by C. J. Binding and L. J. Wilson:

>> "The earliest Davies has found to this tradition is in a deposition taken in 1650... There appear to be two possible explanations for this practice. The first, and perhaps most obvious, is that the Red Sea was associated with the drowning of Pharoah's army in the pursuit of Moses and his followers, and so might have been seen as a place where good triumphed over evil and thus was an appropriate place for the containment of troublesome spirits. However...it is possible that the reference to the Red Sea in this context derive from the Hebrew myths that associate Lilith, Adam's first wife, with the Red Sea, a region said to have abounded with demons, which Lilith then added to with her own progeny... Lilith's flight to the Red Sea after her dispute with Adam recalls the ancient Hebrew view that water attracts demons..."

(We then get a potted history of Jewish people in the west of England to explain Hebrew beliefs underlying west country folklore.)

From an article published in 1814:

"The vulgar notion that ghosts are laid in the Red Sea, I suspect to have arisen from that passage in the Book of Tobit, where the Evil Spirit is said to fly to the utmost parts of Egypt, and to be bound there; coupled with an idea that unclean spirits delight in dry places. The former naturally led the vulgar to fix the place of banishment in Egypt; and the latter suggested the opinion, that the Red Sea must be a more painful prison than any the dry land could afford."

That's all I got...and more than you wanted, I'm sure. :)

48gennyt
Nov 2, 2012, 6:46 am

Fascinating stuff about ghosts and the Red Sea! I'd never come across that tradition.

49SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 2, 2012, 8:24 am

> 45

When this time expired, the ghost came back, extremely upset about its forced vacation

Hey! I'd be glad to take vacation to the Red Sea. That was one of the most memorable (and fun!) camping experiences of my life!

My friends and I knew nothing of ghosts. We had to take turns at shmirah (guard duty) lest Egyptians cross the Red Sea into Israel (who then occupied the Sinai Peninsula). We thought that was funny at the time. Sadly and ironically, it was, in fact, the Red Sea that was breached by the Egyptians when the Yom Kippur War broke out in 1973. :(

50SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 2, 2012, 8:19 am

> 47

However...it is possible that the reference to the Red Sea in this context derive from the Hebrew myths that associate Lilith, Adam's first wife, with the Red Sea, a region said to have abounded with demons, which Lilith then added to with her own progeny... Lilith's flight to the Red Sea after her dispute with Adam recalls the ancient Hebrew view that water attracts demons..."

I never heard that story about Lilith before. We (and all other Jews) do retell the story of the Israelites' escape from Egypt (as if it were our own personal flight to freedom) every year at our Passover seder.

51SqueakyChu
Nov 2, 2012, 8:27 am

>47 lyzard:

However...it is possible that the reference to the Red Sea in this context derive from the Hebrew myths that associate Lilith, Adam's first wife, with the Red Sea, a region said to have abounded with demons, which Lilith then added to with her own progeny... Lilith's flight to the Red Sea after her dispute with Adam recalls the ancient Hebrew view that water attracts demons..."

I never heard that story before. Again, that story about Lilith was nothing I ever studied in Hebrew school...although we do retell the story of the Israelites escape from Egypt (as if it were our own personal escape) every year at our Passover seder.

Egypt has so little water (except for the Red Sea). Why not banish the ghosts into the Atlantic Ocean, or, better yet, let them stay in England with its wet climate and foggy days?! ;)

What is the Book of Tobit?

52lyzard
Nov 2, 2012, 3:36 pm

I suppose they wanted to drive the evil spirits as far away as possible - and keep them away. Most of the references to the Red Sea I found emphasise how very hard it is to get a ghost to go away. One of the stories had twelve clergymen battling a ghost simultaneously. Another recurrent point is that the ghost is driven into some sort of container - a bottle in one story, a snuff-box in another - which is then dropped into the Red Sea.

What is the Book of Tobit?

This is another topic to which I need I need to append the disclaimer, This really isn't my area of expertise... - and if you'll forgive me, this time I think I'll go straight to Wikipedia:

A book of scripture that is part of the Catholic and Orthodox biblical canon, pronounced canonical by the Council of Carthage of 397 and confirmed for Roman Catholics by the Council of Trent (1546). It is listed as a book of the "Apocrypha" in Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England. Tobit is regarded by Protestants as apocryphal because it has never been included within the Tanakh and considered canonical by ancient Judaism.

53SqueakyChu
Nov 2, 2012, 10:58 pm

If I ever get to the Red Sea again, I'll look for stoppered bottles...and be SURE not to remove the stoppers!

Thanks for the information about Tobit. I did hear of teh Apocrypha, but did not remember what it was. I just looked it up and read more about it now.

54SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 2, 2012, 11:21 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 2 - Part 3

1. If Antonia was in convulsions, shouldn't have Jacintha fetched a doctor instead of a monk?

2. Should a legion of Ghosts attack her...

How would ghosts attack? Aren't they just wispy creatures?

3. Referring back to message #1. Oh, I see. The Physician is already attending Antonia.

4. the Friar's gloting eyes...

What does "gloting" mean?

5. So now the Monk is going to begin to make "house calls"?

6. Then having partaken of a Collation in the Rectory...

What is a Collation?

7. Antonia drank the medicine. Now we wait to see what happens...

-----------------------notes to myself--------------------

page 333

Ends with:
...upon his own happiness or desrpair.

55lyzard
Nov 2, 2012, 11:39 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 2 - Part 3

1. & 3. Yes, she sensibly wants a doctor and a priest! :)

2. Opinions differ on what ghosts can or cannot do. But perhaps we should just take this as a measure of Jacinta's faith in Ambrosio. {rolls eyes}

4. That's an alternative spelling of "gloating" - he is staring at the bits of Antonia that are exposed while she is sleeping and thinking, "Mine, all mine!"

5. Only with his hood on, and under cover of darkness.

6. A light meal.

7. Ulp!

56SqueakyChu
Nov 2, 2012, 11:43 pm

Ulp!

:)

57SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 3, 2012, 8:56 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 2 - Part 4

1. I suppose that the Monk already knew that Jacintha would not let him leave.

2. I wonder how much more clearly Flora explained the situation to Antonia than her mother did. That's not really clear.

3. Lay the Apparition in the Red Sea.

I want to follow the story of the Apparition going into the Red Sea! :)

4. This request Ambrosio expected and desired;

...which answers my question #1 above.

5. I can't wait for Elvira's Ghost to scare the Monk! :D

6. Does the Closet-door open into Antonia's room?

7. Why was Flora spying on the Monk rather than guarding Antonia? That seems foolish to me.

8. I lament for none more than yourself

Here Antonia is lying. She laments more for Lorenzo. Something was in those drops that Ambrosio gave her.

9. She expired without a groan.

I did not expect her to really die.

10. Oh! I see that she did not really die after all. I'm sorry to see that Leonella did not remain in Madrid, though.

----------------------notes to myself--------------------

page 343

End of Chapter 2!

58lyzard
Nov 3, 2012, 9:25 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 2 - Part 4

1. & 4. Yes, since it is Jacinta's house, he has a kind of weapon to use against Flora.

2. Probably still not clearly enough, from our point of view - she still sees no reason to shun Ambrosio altogether, though she knows not to be alone with him.

3. I'm still not convinced that legend ever made it to Spain... :)

5. Guilty consciences are scared by all sorts of things.

6. The closet is between Elvira's bedroom and Antonia's bedroom.

7. But she doesn't know that there's another reason she should be watching Antonia - since Ambrosio is the danger that threatens Antonia, watching him and guarding her amount to the same thing.

8. No, she doesn't understand her own feelings for Lorenzo - properly innocent girls don't know anything about love. (At least, that was how it was supposed to work.) We see here from her words to Ambrosio that neither Elvira nor Flora succeeded in getting through the brick wall of her ignorance.

9. & 10. He obtained permission from the prioress, that the corse should be deposited in St. Clare's sepulcre...

It is crowded down there!

59SqueakyChu
Nov 3, 2012, 9:34 pm

It is crowded down there!

My question should be...how many of the dead people down in the Sepulchre really are dead? ;)

60lyzard
Nov 3, 2012, 9:38 pm

{Monty Python} "I'm not dead yet!" {/Monty Python}

61SqueakyChu
Nov 3, 2012, 10:07 pm

:)

62SqueakyChu
Nov 4, 2012, 7:40 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 3 - Part 1

1. Am I to take any message away from the poem that opens this chapter?

2. She held a golden bason on which there were two eyes.

What is a bason?

3. ...whose dispositon was naturally solemn and saturnine.

What is saturnine?

4. Why would the Prioress have had a dagger? How would she have known how to use it? I can't believe that Agnes did not have the strength to fight off these older women!

5. I can't believe that Agnes died. Can we still bring her back to life? :)

6. Why was the crowd taking out their vengeance against all the nuns when they were told that only some of the nuns were in accordance with the plans of the Prioress?

7. Why did the crowd take out their fury on a building - of all things?!

8. ...some heavy arch tumbling down in ruins

How did these arches come down from fire? Weren't they made of stone and not wood?

9. Why was Lorenzo feeling his way through the dark Sepulchre when the whole convent was upstairs burning down? Did he have no thought to escape from that fiery scene?

10. How convenient for Lorenzo to have instantly figured out how to get down into the abyss through the grate under the statue! All of this in the dimmest of lights...

------------------notes to myself----------------

page 368

Ends with:
He soon beheld again the spark of light, which a low projecting Wall had hitherto concealed from him.

63lyzard
Nov 4, 2012, 9:01 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 3 - Part 1

1. It's an ode to Liberty, so you can take it as a protest against unjust confinement.

2. An alternative spelling for "basin".

3. Gloomy or (heh!) melancholy.

4. Everyone carries a dagger outside of England - didn't you know?? - and using one isn't that complicated.

And Agnes is rather heavily pregnant, don't forget. She's also got the point of a dagger at her heart.

5. I don't know, made any deals with Lucifer lately?? :)

6. & 7. I'll answer these separately, if that's okay.

8. The buildings are stone but their supports are wood; many of the buildings attached to the main body of the convent would be wooden, too.

9. Lorenzo is as safe in the sepulcre as anywhere upstairs (where his exit has been cut off) - it's entirely made of stone. The people down there are in more danger from the mob than the fire.

10. The nuns do have a lamp with them. Besides, you've read enough Gothic novels now to know that there's ALWAYS a secret passage there somewhere, if you just keep looking. :) But I don't think he's doing anything "instantly".

64SqueakyChu
Nov 4, 2012, 9:17 pm

5. I don't know, made any deals with Lucifer lately??

LOL!!

6. I'll answer these separately, if that's okay.

That's cool with me!

10. But I don't think he's doing anything "instantly".

Maybe not instantly, but *very* quickly! :D

65lyzard
Nov 4, 2012, 9:18 pm

Why did the crowd take out their fury on a building - of all things?!

Because that is what mob violence is like.

You might remember that I earlier remarked facetiously that anti-Catholicism "emigrated to America" during the 19th century--- I wasn't really kidding, although it was quite as much about "the Catholics taking our jobs" (sigh) as it was about religion. In 1834, there was an anti-Catholic riot outside a convent in Charlestown, Massachusetts, in the course of which the convent was burned down - even though the crowd had supposedly gone there is the first place to "rescue" one of the inmates.

So Lewis is on the mark here with his description of how easily things can get out of hand. Mobs don't stop to discriminate between this person and that person.

The other thing to note here is the appalling fate dished out to the prioress.

As I mentioned at the beginning, not only was Lewis gay, he was so at a very bad time. During the 18th century there were periodic surges in enforcing the laws against homosexuality, as a result of which men (always men) were pilloried, jailed, or even executed. The men who were pilloried (or "put in the stocks") were terribly vulnerable to crowd violence - they could be pelted with rotten eggs or vegetables or even stoned, and there were instances of men suffering fatal injuries in these situations. There were also instances of the convicted men being attacked by the mob and beaten to death in the streets.

Lewis's description of the prioress's death at the hands of the mob is very similar to newspaper reports of some of these violent attacks on convicted homosexuals, so it's not too much to assume that he was working through some personal issues when he was writing this material.

66SqueakyChu
Nov 4, 2012, 9:26 pm

Off topic

Do you know anyone who'd like my copy of Clermont here on LT? If not, I'm going to put it on BookMooch because there are several USA moochers who have that book wishlisted.

Any ideas for what we might read together in the future? Not anytime soon, though, so you can relax with other tutees and enjoy your current experience tutoring Barchester Towers (which I do look in on from time to time).

I don't know why, but I'm finding the characters in The Monk far more confusing than those in Clermont. I have to look at my "family tree" daily with each of my partial chapter reads.

On a happier note, I can say that you've given me more confidence in reading historical fiction. I'm proud to say that I'm now reading Cold Mountain, a contemporary novel set in the time of the American Civil War (about 1865). That's not something I usually do, but I'm feeling on more certain footing about doing that now.

67lyzard
Nov 4, 2012, 9:38 pm

Alas, no - so if you do know someone who wants Clermont (even if you only "know" them in the moochy sense), that might be best.

Are you after another Gothic novel? In that case, I have a couple of ideas... If there's anything else you're interested in trying, I'd be glad to help if I can.

Well, it might just be the way that The Monk is written - Lewis was inexperienced, and perhaps didn't succeed in being as lucid as he might have done.

Aw, thank you, that's nice to hear!

68SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 4, 2012, 9:41 pm

Interesting about the American anti-Catholicism. I grew up looking at anti-Semitism and didn't really learn that much about violence against other religions (or maybe it's just that I don't remember it).

What I remember mostly from American History classes is that people came to America for freedom of religion. It was a very rosy-colored picture. I basically lived in a heavily Jewish populated area growing up. My best friend as a small child was Catholic, but I was heavily influenced by my Hebrew school learning. I went to Hebrew school through 9th grade.

Was there no way to bring the Prioress to trial? Was mob violence the way most such issues were dealth with at that time? Is that why the issue was dealt with in such a public manner?

There were also instances of the convicted men being attacked by the mob and beaten to death in the streets

Sadly, this is even not so far-fetched inmodern times. Gangs do beat up on homosexuals and a young man was even killed a few years ago just for being gay.

In future writing by Lewis, did he ever touch on any themes similarly paralleling his homosexuality. It's all so sad.

In the late 1960's when I was a nursing student, homosexuality was not a crime, but it was classified as a bona fide mental disorder. Homosexuals were hospitalized in psychiatric hospitals to receive psychotherapy in order to "change back" their sexual orientation. I had a fellow student be assigned to the men's acute homosexuality ward at the psychiatric hospital at which I received my nurse's training.

ETA: In America, some group is *always* taking our jobs!

69SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 4, 2012, 9:52 pm

> 67

Are you after another Gothic novel? In that case, I have a couple of ideas... If there's anything else you're interested in trying, I'd be glad to help if I can.

Throw out all your ideas...and I'll go from there. I'm not sure what the "anything else" consists of.

Gothic novels are fun. I'm now getting a sense of what they're like as I see the similarities between the three most recent novels we've read together.

One idea might be some other novels published by Valancourt Books (although I don't know how easy they would be to get used). They look kind of gruesome (in a positive way!).

70lyzard
Editado: Nov 4, 2012, 9:50 pm

>>#68

You understand why people get cynical. Unfortunately, "freedom of religion" too often means "freedom of OUR religion". :(

I don't know that Lewis ever wrote anything like this again (after the attacks on The Monk, he was a lot more cautious generally), and besides he wrote chiefly plays and poetry, not fiction.

Probably the prioress would have been taken before the Spanish Inquisition for questioning - or "questioning" (i.e. torture).

>>#69

"Anything else" is just that - any other kind of reading that you haven't tried, but might like to. :)

There's no shortage of Gothic material and I'll have a proper think about it when we wrap up The Monk.

71SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 4, 2012, 10:01 pm

,i>"Anything else" is just that - any other kind of reading that you haven't tried, but might like to.

...except I don't know what else interests you beside Jane Austen. I don't think I want to go back to her now that I've sidestepped into the Gothic novels. I'm finding those more fun.

Should I look through your library? Heh!

I would be interested in material about the Spanish Inquisition. It was at that time that the Jews were expelled from Spain. My surname, Guzman, is a Judeo-Spanish name that became a Spanish Catholic name during and after the Inquisition. I read a fascinating contemporary book called Sister Teresa by Barbara Mujica that was about a Jewish woman (oddly enough, of the Guzman family) who became a Catholic saint. Perhaps there is some older literature dealing with the same concept or similar concepts?

I'd also like to learn more about the character of the Wandering Jew - specifically how that figure became incorporated into 18th and 19th century literature.

72lyzard
Nov 4, 2012, 9:59 pm

I'm happy to stick with the Gothics if you're finding them fun. I just thought there might be some genre of writing you were curious about but hesitant to try on your own.

But I really wouldn't advise you going into my collections...we might never see you again!

73SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 4, 2012, 10:03 pm

But I really wouldn't advise you going into my collections...we might never see you again!

LOL!!

I just thought there might be some genre of writing you were curious about but hesitant to try on your own.

Give me some examples...

Truthfully, I'm scare of all novels that are considered "classics"!

74lyzard
Nov 4, 2012, 10:11 pm

Classics are nothing to be frightened of! Most classics, anyway; I promise I won't try to make you read War And Peace or Moby Dick. :)

You've mentioned Cold Mountain - if there were other historical novels you'd like to try, that would be fine. And now you've mentioned the Inquisition - which would lend itself either to fiction or non-fiction - and the Wandering Jew. That's plenty to be going on with!

75SqueakyChu
Nov 5, 2012, 9:36 pm

No time tonight for reading. Sorry. I'll see what happens tomorrow as I watch the election returns.

76SqueakyChu
Nov 6, 2012, 9:50 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 3 - Part 2

1. Oh. So now Virginia has a "thing" for Lorenzo?

----------------------------------------------------------------

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 4 - Part 1

2. ...his feeling for Antonia the most sincere and ardent affection

Very odd, then, that Ambrosio's affection for Antonia is not sufficient to prevent his desire to rape her.

3. to the Western Aisles

What were the Western Aisles?

4. How many "vaults" were in this enclosure? I get the feeling that there was a main chamber and perhaps vaults (like prison cells) around the edges. Why was there no light down there? Weren't there torches or candles that could be lit? Were there no windows to the outside? Was it all underground?

5. I was hoping thar Antonia would be able to escape from Ambrosio's clutches. :(

6. The Unfortunate had fainted ere the completion of her disgrace.

Er, meaning Antonia won't even know exactly what happened to her? Was that a device to protect her from knowing the true evil of Ambrosio's crime?

7. Why was Ambrosio so suddenly turned off by Antonia? Guilt, perhaps?

8. Of course! Blame it on Antonia's beauty. It was that which caused Ambrosio to so grievously err...

9. Supposing his brain to be turned

Antonia gives a pretty accurate diagnosis here!

---------------------notes to myself-----------------

page 386

Ends with:
'Silence!' cried the Friar madly, and dashed her upon the ground---

77lyzard
Editado: Nov 6, 2012, 10:20 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 3 - Part 2

1. Yes, Virginia has a thing for Lorenzo.

I don't know - these nuns... Tsk! :)

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 4 - Part 1

2. Well, he's ardent and sincere about his desire to rape her, if that's what he means.

3. It's just the direction he's moving in to get where he's going - towards the aisles on the western side. Probably the monastery was built on a directional (east / west / north / south) scheme. Churches etc. often were.

4. This area (which is, yes, entirely underground) is a mixture of cemetery and dungeon, with main areas for---well, not for "burials", but for interring the dead. If the convent is very old they would have been disposing of dead nuns this way for as long and would need many different vaults (which might also be divided up by rank, or something similar). There are also other rooms where erring nuns can be confined for punishment. So it's likely to be very extensive, yes, but only lit by the lamps and candles that people bring with them when they're down there.

(This is another of those moments when I stop and say, Of course, convents weren't actually like this...)

5. It's not that kind of book, luvvie; that's why I warned you at the start. :(

6. She knows, but neither actually experiences it, not is in any way culpable. (Not that she would be anyway.) She only recovered life to be sensible of her misfortune.

7. Oh, in the immediate aftermath of his crime he's disgusted and horrified with himself, like he always is in the aftermath of ALL his crimes. He'll get over it.

8. Of course! You're not suggesting it's HIS fault, are you!?

9. Yes, she's not far wrong.

78SqueakyChu
Nov 6, 2012, 10:23 pm

5. It's not that kind of book, luvvie; that's why I warned you at the start.

LOL!! I can live with it.

7. He'll get over it.

Haha!

Now I have to go back and freak out over the USA election returns...coming in even as we speak...

79lyzard
Nov 6, 2012, 10:56 pm

Even MORE horrors!! :)

80SqueakyChu
Nov 6, 2012, 11:04 pm

Really!!!

81Deern
Editado: Nov 7, 2012, 2:22 am

Now that we are past this point, may I add something I learned from "Clarissa" and which made me very angry then:

The Unfortunate had fainted ere the completion of her disgrace.
I read somewhere that for a rape to be acknowledged as a real rape (and not a successful seduction) it was important that the woman was unconscious, because otherwise she might have been accused of having sort of 'agreed' to the act. So while disgraced, Antonia still could be regarded as an innocent victim here and I am sure it was important that Lewis added this sentence to the rape scene.

82SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 7, 2012, 8:51 am

Interesting, Nathalie!

There was a place in the narrative where it said that the Friar handled Antonia roughly. I even ended my reading at a place where he threw her to the ground. Surely her wounds (if she sustained any) and any bruising would more than prove "force" than her merely being unconscious.

How does a woman prove that she was "unconscious" during a rape? I realize that this is so stated in literature, but what about rape that happened in that time period in real life? How was rape proven then?

*runs off to work*

83lyzard
Nov 7, 2012, 5:16 pm

Well into the 1970s, women who tried to press rape charges were told by the police that if they stopped fighting back as hard as they could for even one second, it wasn't rape. So unless you provoked your rapist into beating you half to death or even killing you, you let it happen.

It is only fairly recently that rape cases came to court regularly, as there was an oxymoronic assumption that if you were the kind of woman who could testify about a rape, you were probably at fault in the first place - "good" women wouldn't talk about such things in public. There was a notorious 19th century case of a policeman coming across a rape in progress and not intervening. His explanation was there was no point in stopping it or arresting the rapist, because "the worst" had already happened and the woman wouldn't go to court anyway.

Obviously a woman who was raped couldn't prove if she fainted or not; I would assume that these details are added for the benefit of the reader, as a way of reassurance about the innocence of the victim. Which is distasteful in itself.

18th century: "If you didn't faint, you weren't raped."
21st century: "If you got pregnant, you weren't raped."

Progress?

By the way, is it true that both of the "gentlemen" who decided to make rape an election issue got shown the door?

84rebeccanyc
Nov 7, 2012, 6:10 pm

Completely true about those "gentlemen" -- Donnelly beat Mourdock (a child fathered by rapist is "a gift from God") in Indiana and McCaskill beat Akin (if it's "real" rape a woman can't get pregnant) in Missouri . Both winners are Democrats and both states went for Romney, the Republican, in the presidential election, so it shows that even conservatives were offended by their comments. I'm surprised they got any votes at all; after all, even men have mothers, if not sisters, wives, and daughters.

85lyzard
Nov 7, 2012, 6:13 pm

Well done, Indiana and Missouri!

86SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 7, 2012, 10:56 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 4 - Part 2

1. How did Antonia find her way so swiftly through the dark chambers?

2. Assuming that Lorenzo now knows that Antonia was raped, had she lived, would that have precluded those two from ever marrying?

3. I wasn't really expecting Antonia to die, either, although I know it had been predicted.

4. Now that the Abbott is incarcerated, who takes over his position as the head of the abbey?

5. I don't understand the vacillations of Lorenzo's affections for Virginia. He's attracted to her and not attracted to her over and over in quick succession. Why?

6. So was Virginia merely a nurse who lived in the convent? She was not yet a nun.

7. ...at this sudden change from despair to happiness Raymond's transports were so violent, as nearly to have proved fatal to him

LOL!! You can't win - either way! Close to death of despair or close to death back in sudden love...

---------------------notes to myself-------------------

page 400

Ends with:
The calm of his soul communicated itself to his body, and He recovered with such rapidity as to create universal surprize.

87lyzard
Nov 7, 2012, 11:16 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 4 - Part 2

1. I think she's running along a straight passageway. Unfortunately, what makes it possible for her to get away also makes it easier for the desperate Ambrosio to catch up with her.

2. Yup.

Her peace of mind was lost, her honour irreparably ruined. She was cut off for ever from society, nor dared he give her back to it... Deprived of honour and branded with shame, death was to her a blessing: she could not have been his wife...

The irony is, if she didn't just die - and in novels, anyway, women frequently "die of shame" - she probably would have ended up entering a convent.

3. ...and we haven't gotten to the end yet of "things you don't expect".

4. They will have an internal election.

5. Because he feels guilty thinking about her at all, in the wake of Antonia's death.

(A good alternative title for this novel could have been "Men Feeling Guilty".)

6. She was a novice (a probationer), which means that she hadn't taken her vows yet, and so is free to leave.

7. There is no middle ground in the 18th century sentimental novel! :)

88SqueakyChu
Nov 7, 2012, 11:56 pm

2. The irony is, if she didn't just die - and in novels, anyway, women frequently "die of shame" - she probably would have ended up entering a convent.

How crazy would mother suprior be having a convent full of "rape victims"? Any of them could be pregnant, as well.

3. ...and we haven't gotten to the end yet of "things you don't expect".

Uh oh!

5. A good alternative title for this novel could have been "Men Feeling Guilty".

Heh!

89lyzard
Nov 7, 2012, 11:58 pm

Any of them could be pregnant, as well.

But then she could just chain them up in the dungeon! Problem solved! :)

90SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 8, 2012, 10:41 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 4 - Part 3

1. This exordium led me to expect something terrible.

What is an exordium?

2. Were evil deeds as described in this novel ever done in real life? If so, are there historical records of such?

3. Rather than crying or pleading for mercy, why didn't Agnes just strike the nuns and run away? To safeguard her baby?

4. That part about the death of Agnes' infant was so sad. :(

-----------------notes to myself-----------------

page 415

Ends with:
...I forgive her my sufferings on earth!

91lyzard
Editado: Nov 8, 2012, 11:24 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 4 - Part 3

1. An exordium is the beginning of something, or an introduction to something: from the way the prioress says, "Abandon all thoughts of a world from which you are eternally separated, and employ the few hours which are allowed you in preparing for the next", Agnes knows that even worse things than have already happened to her are on the way...

2. Depends which evil deeds you mean! Rape? Yes. Murder? Yes. Punishing nuns by chaining them up in secret dungeons? Not so sure about that one, although there are accounts in medieval texts of nuns who have broken their vows (their vows of chastity, that is, naturally) being walled up alive, but no-one knows for sure if these are true or just stories to frighten. (Many novelists used these accounts and helped convince people they were true, however.) Other accounts have erring nuns punished by excommunication (which means they would eventually be damned). Other accounts again deny all this harshness and offer accounts of what we might call "reasonable" punishments involving various penances and lots of prayer.

3. Well, (i) she's outnumbered, (ii) she's heavily pregnant, and (iii) run away where? She's locked up in a convent. She can run, but she can't hide. (Sure, we know the place has secret entrances and passageways, but Agnes doesn't.)

4. It has always been this section of The Monk that freaked me out, but apparently in 1796 it didn't much bother people---certainly not in comparison to the censored Bible. Go figure.

92SqueakyChu
Nov 8, 2012, 11:44 pm

2. I guess I was mostly referring to people being put in chains inside the sepulchre of a convent. I know that nuns did get pregnant. I would hope there weren't too many rapes or murders in monasteries or convents, but like everywhere, there isn't really a "right place" for those things to happen. They just do.

When I was in the Sinai peninsula (now in Egypt, but then in Israel), I visited a monastery at the base of (the supposed) Mount Sinai. There was a room holding all of the skulls (open for people to see!) of the deceased monks who'd lived (and died!) at that monastery. Our story just made me think of that room. I doubt if any of them had been murdered, though! :)

4. It has always been this section of The Monk that freaked me out, but apparently in 1796 it didn't much bother people

Perhaps that was because infant death was not a rare thing - nor was death of mothers in childbirth. I guess it was just "one of those things".

93lyzard
Editado: Nov 9, 2012, 1:40 am

Sorry, yes - of course I knew you meant chaining people up. There have just been so many "evil deeds" to choose from! And as I say, those sorts of scenes appear so frequently in novels that you tend to lose sight of whether they have any basis in fact or not.

94SqueakyChu
Nov 9, 2012, 11:15 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 4 - Part 4

1. Afliction's casual gales, they seemed to them gentle as Zephyrs, which breathe over summer-seas.

What are Zephyrs?

--------------------------------

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 5 - Part 1

2. Determined to make him confess not only the crimes which He had committed, but those also of which He was innocent..."

Why should he confess to crimes of which he was innocent?

3. She must expiate her crime in fire on the approaching Auto de Fe.

I forgot what Auto de Fe was.

----------------notes to myself------------------

page 427

Ends with:
The day of his second examination was at hand.

95lyzard
Editado: Nov 10, 2012, 12:11 am

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 4 - Part 4

1. Light breezes.

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 5 - Part 1

2. The implication is that the Inquisition doesn't care if you are guilty or innocent: they're just going to torture you until you confess to something.

3. Correctly, "auto-da-fé" means "act of faith": it was a ceremony that involved the punishment of individuals who had been found guilty of crimes against religion including heresy. There was a Mass, and then a procession of the accused, and then the sentences were read out loud and carried out. At the most extreme, this could be the burning of condemned heretics at the stake. This is what gets remembered, so many people incorrectly use the term "auto-da-fé" when they meaning burning at the stake.

96SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 10, 2012, 11:00 am

3. It was most likely that I originally learned about the term auto-da-fé in the context of Jews in existence at the time of the Spanish Inquisition. I just didn't remember specifically what that term meant. I, also incorrectly, thought it meant burning at the stake.

I was taught in Hebrew school that those Jews who refused to convert to Catholicism either had to flee for their lives or were burned at the stake. Many Spanish Jews fled to Portugal (which was even worse!) and the New World (both North and South America). A few of these Jews have evolved into what are now known as crypto Jews.

97SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 10, 2012, 1:21 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 5 - Part 2
(backtracking a bit to page 426)

1. How does the monastery really deal with the male sexuality of monks (and, conversely) the female sexuality of nuns? Is the idea just to deny it because it is "sinful"? If it were truly sinful, why does it sometimes result in a new life being created? A new being (in G-d's image) should be a beautiful thing.

2. He sorrowed for the punishment of his crimes

For the punishment of murder? Does he feel that, if he were punished, all of his guilt should be absolved (from a religious point of view)?

I guess that all of this comes down to if the reader of this novel believes in capital punishment for murder or not. Then there is the idea of a soldier (a person who is trained to kill on behalf of his country) or the Inquisitor (who is taught to condemn a person to death on behalf of religion). It's the latter that really gets to me.

I haven't made up my mind about capital punishment within the U.S. legal system yet. Some states have it; others don't. In the U.S., it's a state by state issue. Sometimes, I'm really surprised by how much power individual U.S. states have (particuarly the electoral college in US elections - but that's going off on an unrelated tangent).

3. not for their commission

So Ambrosio is saying that, were he to have another chance with another female, he'd literally jump at that opportunity. So what has he learned from his adventure? So far, what I've learned is, not that the Monk was evil but, rather, that the Catholic church, as portrayed in this novel, has an unrealistic attitude toward sexuality. I do NOT, however, believe that rape is okay. If people are taught (and follow) the proper decorum for sexual liaisons, wouldn't that decrease the incidents of rape?

4. in blasphemy

For what reason did Ambrosio have to commit blasphemy?

5. I'm still not sure where "incest" comes into play during this novel. Is it yet to be revealed? Matilda, perhaps?

6. Is Ambrosio hallucinating at the sight of Matilda or is she working her black magic?

7. The Infernal Spirits obey me as their Sovereign:

Matilda became the Queen of Hell (or something like that)?

-----------------notes to myself-----------------

page 429

Ends with:
'Ambrosio, it was my Soul!'

I know I'm reading very slowly here, but this part seems most interesting (and least confusing) to me.

98SqueakyChu
Nov 10, 2012, 1:26 pm

Off Topic

Going forward with other tutored reads for me:

How about if you choose three novels for me based on what we've read together so far *or* something new that you think I'd like? I trust you. You have not let me down so far. Each of our reads together up until now has been a joyful interaction. I've learned a lot...and am willing to learn more.

You go ahead with other tutored reads in the immediate future. I'll take a break. Farther down the line and when you're ready, I'll have chosen and, hopefully, obtained one of the books you've selected for me. If you're tired of me, you can pass me along to another tutor, but I *love* being tutored by you. Thanks so much, Liz!

99lyzard
Nov 10, 2012, 2:35 pm

>>#96

If you were Jewish, you were automatically a heretic, since heresy is a rejection of the teachings of the (Catholic) church.

There are records of occasional autos-da-fé in different countries at different times, but in 1478, after the Spanish Inquisition was established under Ferdinand and Isabella specifically to "defend the faith" and to seek out and punish heretics, and after that the auto-da-fé became a regular event. The Inquisition and the auto-da-fé then spread to other Catholic countries; in Portugal, they were established specifically to seek out Jews, and particularly Jews who pretended to have converted to Catholicism but practised Judaism kin secret.

So as you note, many of the Spanish Jews fled to Portugal when the Spanish Inquisition was established, and then fifty years later Portugal came up with something worse.

100lyzard
Editado: Nov 10, 2012, 4:06 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 5 - Part 2

1. There are contradictions, or seeming contradictions, in the Christian church's attitude towards sex. Sex is sinful, but marriage is a sacrament that takes the sin out of sex, and sex is only not sinful within marriage (a church-sanctioned marriage).

Then you get the split between Catholics and Protestants. For Catholics sex is supposed to be for the creation of children first and foremost, hence the ban on birth control; for Protestants it's okay to practise birth control and have sex for love and fun, as long as you're married.

A new life may be "a beautiful thing" but until VERY recently illegitimacy was regarded as a stain that people carried for their whole lives and that led to them being shunned and excluded - because they were "born of sin" and therefore tainted.

The hang-up on celibacy and virginity, however, seems to have been imposed upon the Christian religion by some of its early, powerful teachers, who had hangs-ups of their own in that respect and managed to impose them on everyone else. Yes, the church teaches that you're supposed to wait for marriage, but the idea that staying celibate is a superior choice is something that crept in later.

The three fundamental vows of monastic or convent life (monasteries came long before convents) are poverty, chastity and obedience; these were established by St Benedict in about the 5th century. Many orders have other vows, including non-violence and service to the sick and poor, or in the case of cloistered orders (enclosed, like St Clare's), to renounce the world altogether. All religious orders have a probationary period during which novices find out whether they are really suitable for a monastic life.

In the case of nuns (Catholic nuns; many religions have them), entering a convent and taking vows is treated as spiritual marriage - they become "the brides of Christ". It's an alternative sacrament to the usual marriage sacrament; not superior, just different.

I think as far as "dealing with sex" goes, we get a skewed view because fictional accounts of monks and nuns nearly always put sex front and centre, perversely enough. In reality, sure, there are those who struggle and those who break their vows and those that leave because they decide they want marriage after all, and a small minority who end up doing terrible things (although in all probability, those individuals have entered the church as a way of running away, not out of a religious commitment); but what about countless thousands who take their vows and keep them and are contented. We don't hear about those, because where's the story? (And the sex!)

Personally I think our society goes in the other direction and puts far too much emphasis on sex, to the detriment to the other aspects of life. It even manages to flip the church and make it a shameful thing not to have sex! It's just one part of life - why must it be, either in its happening or its not happening, the dominant part?

2. There is a misapprehension that if someone confesses their sins, will automatically be absolved. That isn't the case. You only receive absolution if you have repented sincerely, and sincere repentence requires accepting punishment. A priest can hear a confession and keep it secret, but not give absolution.

Ambrosio's faith has failed him; he can't bring himself to believe that he will be pardoned even if he does repent, and since he doesn't truly repent, he can't be absolved. Of course in this case his repentence requires accepting the sentence of the Inquisition...

My feelings about the death penalty are simple: if we as a society believe that killing is wrong, why do we kill? And yes, someone may be an evil person who deserves to die but that doesn't mean that we should kill them. Once an individual enters the legal system, it stops being about them as and individual and becomes about what society considers acceptable and unacceptable.

Also, no-one has ever yet shown me an infallible legal system, and I don't like situations where there is no second chance in the case of a mistake. The skewing of death row on race and gender is also very disturbing.

And yeah, there are situational contradictions like soldiers in wartime; but that underscores how very carefully we should enter into those situations, and how sure we should be of our motives, before we ask anyone to go out and kill.

3. He's not sorry he sinned, he's sorry he got caught. And yes, if he hadn't been caught, he'd probably be obsessing over another young woman by now (after a brief period of feeling bad and blaming Matilda).

See #1 for the church and sex. Rape, however, is very rarely about sex: it's about domination and hatred and about hurting and denigrating the other person. It isn't sufficient to say, as Lewis does, and many anti-Catholic novels do, "Oh, well, if you suppress people's sexuality, what do you expect?" We this very clearly in the fact that even so-called sexually liberated and/or secular societies may have a high incidence of rape. People could get sex if they wanted it; they choose to rape.

Likewise - if Ambrosio only wanted sex, he had Matilda. That wasn't enough. It was lust mixed with selfishness and cruelty that led him to gratify himself at the cost of brutalising Antonia.

4. Taking God's name in vain can be blasphemous; he's probably just saying "Oh, God! Oh, God!" with no sense of praying or repenting. Or he might be blaming God for making him weak, or for "allowing" Matilda to tempt him.

5. Perhaps.

6. She's working her black magic. She's done a deal with the devil to escape the Inquisition and avoid being burnt at the stake.

7. It means that as part of her deal, she has the power to command demons (who, as we discussed earlier, had all sorts of different abilities and areas of control). She has been made their "sovereign" so they have to obey her.

Phew! :)

101lyzard
Nov 10, 2012, 4:15 pm

>>#98

Oh, my dear, it's a pleasure - and a perfectly selfish pleasure, at that. :)

It's easier and safer, I think, if you choose the kind of novel we go forward with, if not the specific title; I don't want to end up forcing something on you just because I enjoy it. There are also books that I think you would enjoy, but which are very difficult and/or expensive to get hold of. At least with the Gothic novels (and related literature) a lot of them have been recently reprinted and are available.

So, short answer, I'm happy to do another Gothic if that's what you're enjoying.

One thought: you could browse the catalogue at Valancourt Books and see what looks good to you?

102SqueakyChu
Nov 10, 2012, 10:28 pm

One thought: you could browse the catalogue at Valancourt Books and see what looks good to you?

I like that idea! I think I'll go with that.

103SqueakyChu
Nov 10, 2012, 10:39 pm

> 100

1. to renounce the world altogether

It's really hard to see how renouncing the world altogether should be something sacred. The world, after all, is G-d's creation so why should it be shunned by people serving the Lord?

It's just one part of life - why must it be, either in its happening or its not happening, the dominant part

Good point.

2. A priest can hear a confession and keep it secret, but not give absolution.

So is absolution given by G-d? If so, how would one know that he or she received absolution?

My feelings about the death penalty are simple: if we as a society believe that killing is wrong, why do we kill?

That's another good point...and a strange contradiction.

The skewing of death row on race and gender is also very disturbing.

Agreed.

5. Perhaps.

:)

Phew!

Sorry I wore you out! :)

104SqueakyChu
Nov 11, 2012, 11:54 am

Off topic

Liz,

Here are some books I can buy used online for not too much money. Most of the Valancourt Books seem to be unaffordable for me as I go through so many books so quickly for many different reasons (BookCrossing, Operation Paperback, books to prisons, BookMooch, book fairs, donations to charitable causes, give to friends etc.). I think using half.com might be my best bet.

1. The Italian; Or, the Confessional of the Black Penitents by Ann Radcliffe
2. Renshaw Fanning's Quest: A Tale of the High Veldt
by Bertram Mitford
3. The Sign of the Spider: An Episode
by Bertram Mitford
4. The Blood of the Vampire by Florence Marryat

or how about some books I found at home?
1. Jude the Obscure by Thomas Hardy
2. Persuasion - Jane Austen - !!!
3. Far From the Maddening Crowd - Thomas Hardy
4. Tess of the D'Urbervilles - Thomas Hardy
5. The Moonstone -Wilkie Collins

I have no preference for any of these books over the other. I know nothing about any of them, other than I'll give them a try. None are books I would read by myself for pleasure. However, I would give them a try with you or another person as a tutor.

Any thoughts?

105lyzard
Nov 11, 2012, 5:44 pm

>>#103

1. And that was the common Protestant response - and appaently the common Jewish response. :)

It comes down to differences over "what God wants". Enclosed orders believed that a pure life dedicated wholly to worship was the greatest offering they could make - that you showed the depth of your faith through personal sacrifice and renunciation. Service orders believed that to serve God properly you had to help others, and that you showed your faith through "good works". In reality people joined the orders that called to them personally, but in novels you'll always find the worse possible outcome being inflicted on victims.

2. In the Catholic religion, the priest is the intermediate between man and God. He can absolve sins in God's name, but in order for sins to be genuinely absolved, the sinner must confess in full and be genuinely repentant. For serious sins this requires accepting punishment.

So, for instance, someone can confess to committing a murder*, but refuse to turn themselves in for it. The priest will keep the confession secret, but not absolve the sin, because there has not been a demonstration of full repentance through accepting punishment.

(*As you might imagine, there have been legal cases about this sort of situation. In most cases the courts uphold the sanctity of the confessional, although sometimes they rule otherwise - forcing the priest to choose between breaking silence or being guilty of contempt of court - and sometimes a priest will choose to break confessional, which is about as serious a violation of vows as you can get, and may result in the priest resigning from the priesthood.)

106lyzard
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 6:02 pm

>>#104

Ah, how you tempt me!

The Valancourts certainly aren't cheap but we can always hope to find inexpensive second-hand copies, as happened with Clermont.

Of your two lists---I have to be careful, because what leaps out at me isn't necessarily the thing for you. However...of #1, certainly the most fitting pick is The Italian. Ann Radcliffe invented the Gothic novel, but then saw all sorts of people take it in all sorts of directions. She was horrified by The Monk, and wrote The Italian in response to it - trying to show "the right way" to write about an erring monk, I think. :)

It's a long book, though, so you'd need to take that into consideration. On the other hand, like The Monk, I don't think you'd have much trouble finding an inexpensive copy. (ETA: There's even a Valancourt edition for $1.00 at AbeBooks!)

#2, well, I wouldn't dare ask you to re-visit Jane Austen! :) I'm inclined to pick The Moonstone, but I don't know how that suits your tastes: it's a kind of mystery, a forerunner to the detective story.

107SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 6:33 pm

> 106

Of the three, I think I'd like to take some time to look for the Italian locally...and even see if I might find any Valancourt books in the local used book stores. That would be fun. I'll report back to you with what I find.

If I can't find something I like in the stores, I'd might willing to go for Persuasion as it's not a long book.

Though I have Moonstone, browsing through it, it seems stuffy and difficult. Of course, I might be entirely wrong! I always thought that any novel that wasn't contemporary was stuffy and undesirable.

Anyway, I'll take a few weeks break at least and keep you posted about what our next read should be. You let me know when and if you're getting tired of me! :)

108lyzard
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 6:37 pm

I don't think you could call Wilkie Collins "stuffy" - he wrote mostly sensation novels - but like mostly Victorian writers, he did use a lot of words. :)

Though if we're going in that direction, you might prefer Mary Elizabeth Braddon. Gasp! - how I would enjoy leading you through The Trail Of The Serpent! More people need to know that book! (Right, Heather??)

You let me know when and if you're getting tired of me! :)

I promise you'll be the first to know. :)

109SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 8:12 pm

> 108

Let's do The Trail of the Serpent then. It'll be inexpensive for me to get a used copy of that book on Amazon. I read the opening pages (lots of rain!) and it looks inviting. The book, not the rain. Give me an idea when you'll want to start. Take enough of a break so that you can devote your time to your other tutees. In the meantime, I'll get that book.

If it's something you'll enjoy tutoring, and something I will discover, I think The Trail of the Serpent is a good choice for both of us. So far, we've been doing well with our choices. I like that book's creepy title as well! :)

110SqueakyChu
Nov 11, 2012, 9:01 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 5 - Part 3

1. Ooooh! I liked when Matilda disappeared in a blue flame! :)

2. Which Book was it that she let fall?

3. Were the Autos de Fe really conducted at midnight?

4. 'Will no less price content you?'

Er, Ambrosio. Isn't it a bit late for that question?!

5. ...by prayers of superstitious dotards and droning Monks?

What are dotards?

6. At first, the Monk rejoiced at having resisted the Seducers arts...

Interesting choice of words!

7. Instantly the Daemon grasped one of Ambrosio's arms, spread his broad pinions and sprang with him into the air. The roof opened as they soared upwards, and closed again when they had quitted the Dungeon.

Great visuals!

8. Why did the Devil have a sulphorous smell? From flames?

9. The incest was revealed! I guessed wrong.

10. There is a good lesson here in this story: Pride is no virtue; inhumanity is a fault. Why is the Devil preaching this, though?

11. The guards whom you heard at your prison-door, came to signify your pardon.

The Devil really did win this round!

12. Headlong fell the Monk through the airy waste...

That book cover!!

Whoa! What an ending!!

That was great!! I'm so grateful to you, Liz, for working with me to get me to this fabulous finale!

{{{Hugs}}}

Ends with:
The sky was now black with clouds, now sheeted with fire; The rain fell in torrents; It swelled the stream; The waves overflowed their banks; They reached the spot where Ambrosio lay, and when they abated carried with them into the river the Corse of the despairing Monk.

The End!

111lyzard
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 9:27 pm

The Monk - Volume 3 - Chapter 5 - Part 3

1. She knows how to make an exit! :)

2. Probably no specific (i.e. real) book was meant, but a work on black magic.

3. Probably. Like New Year's fireworks - you want to put on the best display!

4. When you make a deal with the devil, you do not get to name your price...

5. Strictly, a dotard is an elderly person who has become senile. The word was also used as a generic term for "fool".

6. The devil was *THE* big seducer, seducing people into sin and damnation. All other kinds of seduction were minor in comparison (although mostly still "the devil's work").

7. You see know where many of the different editions of The Monk got their ideas for their covers from - it's a terribly potent image.

8. According to the Bible, hell is full of sulpherous boiling lakes into which sinners were thrown as punishment. Many traditions say that if the devil or his demons appeared to someone, they brought the odour of sulphur with them.

9. Just one last punch to the gut...

10. Because the devil likes mocking people who know what the right path is, and still take the wrong one - and so end up in his hands. He also wants to rub Ambrosio's fall in by showing how he was deluded about himself from the start and therefore "marked out" for disaster.

11. Ambrosio forgot that the devil fights dirty. :)

12. The ending was one of the things Lewis changed when he edited the book, toning down the horror and lecturing the reader more. So now you know why I insisted on the original text.

112lyzard
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 9:19 pm

WHOO HOO!! CONGRATULATIONS!!

That is not an easy book but you've gotten through it very well - good work!!

113SqueakyChu
Nov 11, 2012, 9:30 pm

Thanks, Liz.

The one thing I found the most challenging about this novel was keeping the characters straight and their relationships to each other. My "genealogy and relationship tree"* was a great resource and one to which I constantly referred through the last 2/3 of this book.

The ending was one of the things Lewis changed when he edited the book, toning down the horror and lecturing the reader more. So now you know why I insisted on the original text.

That ending was the highlight of this book! Yes, I do know why you insisted on the original, and I'm glad you did so. Funny, though, that was the only edition that Second Story Books had.

*I really should scan it for you to see! :)

114SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 11:50 pm

What follows is the only way that I could make it through this book. Heh!


115lyzard
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 9:40 pm

I'd love to see it!

ETA: Oh, that is a work of art! I hope you're going to have it framed??

Authors at the time and afterwards did edit their own books for a variety of reasons, but we know that Lewis did so under pressure, so there's not much doubt that going back to his original text was the right call. The later, censored editions were reprinted right into the 20th century, however, and it wasn't until the early 1970s that Oxford University Press released an edition that went back to the 1796 text.

116SqueakyChu
Nov 11, 2012, 9:43 pm

So why didn't I figure out ahead of time that Ambrosio was Antonia's brother? Maybe because there was too much other content of this novel on which to dwell?

We clearly knew that Elvira had a "presumed dead" son. I also have come to learn that not al "dead" people remain dead in gothic novels. We also knew that Ambrosio was and "orphan" left at the monastery when he was only an infant.

One thing that I found strange about this novel was that there was such a large tangent between the time we first learn about the monk and then when we finally return to his story. Was that unusual about this novel or was that a technique others also used?

117SqueakyChu
Nov 11, 2012, 9:47 pm

> 115

ETA: Oh, that is a work of art! I hope you're going to have it framed??

LOL!! I hadn't thought about it, but I'm clearly going to keep it even after I give the book away. :)

If you know anyone else in the US who might want my book, I'd be glad to mail it to a fellow LTer. Just give me the word. My copy is a Book-Crossing registered copy mass market paperback published by Oxford University Press (a 1981 reprint).

> 115

it wasn't until the early 1970s that Oxford University Press released an edition that went back to the 1796 text.

Good call on their part!

118lyzard
Editado: Nov 11, 2012, 9:57 pm

>>#116

Well---the dead person who isn't dead was still a novelty at this time, although afterwards it was used so much that readers began to get wary as soon as they were told someone was dead - particularly if there were any suspicious circumstances. It finally got to the point where it was a shock if someone WAS dead. :)

Here, Agnes "dies" twice without dying, and Antonia once. We know the latter is false, but you on a first reading disbelieved Agnes's death the first time (correctly) but believed it the second (incorrectly).

There certainly are enormous distractions between the relation of Ambrosio's history, with his abandonment at the monastery, the mention of Elvira losing a son, and Ambrosio becoming obsessed with Antonia - although you did pick up on the fact that Elvira and Antonia find his voice familiar. Presumably his voice was like his father's.

The Monk is not a particularly well-written book in terms of its structure and its balancing of its two plot-threads. It's a young man's first novel, with no editorial assistance, so that's not surprising. Gothic novels by their nature lend themselves to complicated plots and many authors more experienced than Lewis struggled to keep their material under control.

>>#117

I hope your copy of The Monk finds a good home! :)

119SqueakyChu
Nov 11, 2012, 10:04 pm

It finally got to the point where it was a shock if someone WAS dead.

LOL!

The Monk is not a particularly well-written book in terms of its structure and its balancing of its two plot-threads. It's a young man's first novel, with no editorial assistance

Trust me. I'm thoroughly impressed that a nineteen-year-old was able to have written such an extensive, detailed novel and had done it so well.

120CDVicarage
Editado: Nov 12, 2012, 4:50 am

Thanks Liz and Madeline for this, although I haven't asked any questions anything I needed to know Madeline asked for me! My usual reading style is to whiz through and I wouldn't have coped with this book like that. Keeping to Madeline's rate and having Liz to keep me straight on what was actually happening, and to whom, has made this a really enjoyable read. I moved ahead of Madeline at the end as I couldn't stop reading - Lewis really let rip, didn't he?

ETA: I rather hoped for Persuasion or The Moonstone as your next, Madeline, as they are two of my favourite books but I have a copy of The Trail of the Serpent (and have read Lady Audley's Secret and Aurora Floyd) so I shall be following along with you.

121SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2012, 9:25 am

> 120

I'm glad you enjoyed my very slow walk through The Monk, Kerry. I'm not sure that many others could have coped with how slowly I went (hence the earlier apology).

For me, I read just a bit each night because this is not my usual reading genre. I only read to the point at which I feel I'm not being "forced" to read.

This method of reading has allowed me to actually enjoy such books that I would otherwise characterize as too complicated, windy, or detailed. This way of reading had been suggested to me prior to doing my first tutored read with Liz. It was to "slow way down" as I read such books. This hint has really helped me personally cope with books I'd otherwise never even have considered reading.

I can see you having to read to the end of the Monk quickly, though! After all, we do read such books to ultimately discover the outcome...and this book had such a grand, unexpected outcome!

The good thing about "what I read next" is that I still own copies of Persuasion and The Moonstone so I'll get to them eventually. I do like when Liz picks my books, though, as she has gotten to know what I like and what I don't. It's most fun for me to read a book of which I've never heard. That's why The Trail of the Serpent won this last round of book choices. We'd love to have you lurk with us at the time we read this together. Thanks for joining us for The Monk.

122souloftherose
Nov 12, 2012, 4:14 pm

#108 I think Braddon's The Trail of the Serpent would be a great idea! The Modern Library has a good recent edition which I think should be quite reasonable used in the US (I had to pay for my copy to be shipped from the US and it was still only around £5-7 I think). I will definitely be lurking again.

And congratulations on finishing The Monk!

123SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2012, 4:21 pm

Thanks, Heather!

I'm sure I can find an inexpensive copy of The Trail of the Serpent online. It's fun trying to spot it in used books stores as well, though. So far, I hit two book stores today and have not found it yet.

124lyzard
Editado: Nov 12, 2012, 5:07 pm

If you find a second-hand copy this will probably be it anyway, but if you're buying online you want the Modern Library Classics edition from 2003.

AbeBooks looks a lot cheaper than Amazon, BTW.

125klobrien2
Nov 12, 2012, 4:58 pm

Thank you both so much for doing this tutored read and for inviting us along for it. I probably wouldn't have stuck with the read without this thread, and it certainly helped me along the way.

Karen O.

126SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 12, 2012, 6:19 pm

It was good knowing you were here, Karen!

127SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2012, 6:20 pm

> 124

Thanks. I'll note the information from message #124.

128SqueakyChu
Editado: Nov 12, 2012, 8:17 pm

I ordered the book The Trail of the Serpent from half.com. It was less than $5 USD, including shipping. It should get here by November 21st (although I don't know why it should take so long because it's being shipped from only 50 miles away from me).

I should have gotten it from Abebooks because it would have been a few pennies cheaper, but no matter. The funny thing is that it ships from Halethorpe, Maryland, the very small town in which my daughter lives. The cost of my book (less shipping) was only $1.05! I think that all of the booksellers for this book are trying to sell the very same copy of the book. They all refer back to same bookseller called Free State Books.

I did ask about Valancourt books at the used book store today...but no dice! I'm not giving up, though. I've got lots of those Valancourt books on my wishlist on BookMooch. Should they come up, I'll grab them. I think I'll pass along Clermont and The Monk in the same way. At least those books will go to people who really want to read them, and I'll get points for more free books! :)

129lyzard
Editado: Nov 12, 2012, 8:05 pm

Whoo hoo!!

I have one commitment in the New Year but no fixed date for that yet, so we can slot this in pretty much whenever suits you.

Many bookstores do list with multiple online sellers. I check all of them when I'm shopping because the shipping varies enormously and that's usually the deal-breaker, and most often I end up back at AbeBooks.

Bookmooching sounds a good way to go for the Valancourts - good luck!

130SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2012, 8:21 pm

I'll let you know when The Trail of the Serpent arrives, and you can then schedule our tutoring session when you are free of other tutoring sessions. I did notice that this book is much longer than our usual book. It's between 400 and 500 pages. You know how slowly I read so I don't know if that will be a problem for you (and others) or not.

131lyzard
Editado: Nov 12, 2012, 9:31 pm

Is it that long? It flew by for me! :)

BTW, browsing the Valancourts myself, I think at some point we should do The Necromancer (one of the Northanger "horrid novels") - this is from its blurb:

...a delirious and dizzying plot that almost defies comprehension...

Sounds like our kind of thing! :)

132SqueakyChu
Nov 12, 2012, 9:32 pm

Definitely. That's one of the books I'm after.

133Deern
Nov 13, 2012, 1:55 am

What Karen said - thank you both for another wonderful TR! And it helped me a lot, especially in that middle part with all the name confusion. It was such fun, and I learned so much.

And what an ending for a book! After I had finished it and knew what was to come, I smiled whenever I read Liz' "wait and see" when Madeline asked a question about Mathilda.

I'd like to add something re. the rape discussion, also to answer a question Madeline asked.
Beware of big spoilers for "Clarissa" if you haven't read it yet and are planning to do so. The guy who rapes her does it not just out of lust, but to break her will, her virtue that so far placed her above him in everyone's eyes. He is 'honest' enough to admit in a letter to a friend that she was unconscious when he did it and therefore the virtue of her soul was still intact - you could say she passed the test. He could have lied easily and her reputation would have been lost foreveer.
I kept wondering throughout the rest of that novel what would have been her options, hadn't the book ended the way it did. No convents for 'fallen' protestant girls. It seems most of them ended on the streets. So as bad as the monasteries were according to Lewis, at least they offered an option that was not prostitution.

134SqueakyChu
Nov 13, 2012, 8:27 am

I'm happy you were here with us, Nathalie!

135lyzard
Editado: Nov 13, 2012, 2:32 pm

More spoilers for Clarissa:

Lewis deliberately evokes Clarissa in The Monk, so you're absolutely right in making that connection, Nathalie. Both the prophetic dream that Lorenzo has early in the novel, and the actual rape / murder of Antonia, are re-workings of reported dreams in that novel, one of them Lovelace's and one Clarissa's.

The tragedy of Clarissa is of course that she does pass 'the test' - but it destroys her in any case. Her innocence is irrelevant. She has nowhere to go, except where she does go...

136Moomin_Mama
Ene 17, 2015, 5:36 pm

Hi lyzard,

Thank you for letting me post some thoughts and questions about my recent reading of The Monk, which I've enjoyed immensely. The thread has been very useful and has already answered some of my questions but I thought I'd post the questions and observations I had as I went along, and see if you had anything to add.

First scene with Leonella, Antonia, Lorenzo and friend listening to Ambrosio's sermon:
- Is this supposed to be tongue-in-cheek or satire? (from reading this thread I gather it was). Leonella as a character is a scream and the dialogue is pretty funny. Was the novel ever performed on stage?

Rosario/Matilda revealed to Ambrosio:
- Overwrought and slightly ridiculous, a little too dragged out, and comes across as gay fantasy - even despite knowing Lewis was homosexual, it seemed to be leading up to a young man declaring his love for the Monk, and the twist may have been the only way you could get away with this sort of thing in print.
- Ambrosio thinking Matilda's face must be very beautiful once he'd seen her 'beauteous orb' made me laugh.
- LOVED the 'cientipedoro'; a great name for a creepy critter.
- Already getting the melodrama and histrionics of the Gothic. Is the novel set in Spain because Latin types are stereotypically passionate and hysterical, or because it was satirising Catholicism in particular, or both?

137lyzard
Editado: Ene 17, 2015, 6:11 pm

Hi - welcome! It's great that you have reopened this thread. :)

The opening sequence of The Monk, with the characters going to church to be "entertained", was certainly meant as mockery of Catholic practice. But although Gothic novels generally tend to be anti-Catholic (not a problem in England), Lewis did get into trouble with The Monk for being generally disrespectful towards religion.

I don't think The Monk was ever adapted for the stage - it was probably too scandalous for that - but there was a 19th century opera based on the Raymond / Agnes subplot.

I think you're quite right to suggest that because he knew that "Rosario" would eventually be revealed as a woman, Lewis felt safe in giving homoerotic overtones to the scenes between Rosario and Ambrosio.

Ah, the "beauteous orb"! - no-one who reads The Monk ever forgets that! :)

As a general rule Gothic novels exploited the prevailing English stereotypes of "foreigners" - particularly Catholic foreigners, who were perceived as over-emotional, dishonest, credulous and violent. It was a case of having your cake and eating it, as of course this allowed many extravagant and excessive plots to be shaped around "what foreigners do".

138Moomin_Mama
Ene 17, 2015, 6:24 pm

>137 lyzard: Surprised it was never adapted for the stage, a whole lot of things could be left out and still leave plenty of material to work with. I did find a trailer for a recent film, starring Vincent Cassell, who is always worth a watch in my opinion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLYe7uD5PRk

Certainly looks interesting from the trailer.

Adventures of Raymond de las Cisternas:
- A lot of unlikely but convenient events and people bumping into each other randomly, which seems a bit silly - is this typical for a Gothic novel? Getting a bit confused with the different names and relationships, not helped by convoluted language at times.
- The bandit attack was more gruesome and bloody than I'd expected. For some reason I thought a book of this age would be more restrained.
- A fomer monk as a bandit? Another dig at the Church?
- Thought Donna Rodolpha's misunderstanding of Raymond's intentions was funny as a second example of the desperate older woman.
- I liked the use of folk tales, such as The Bleeding Nun and The Wandering Jew, neither of which I'd heard of before. My mum had a houseplant (latin name Tradescantia) which had the common name 'Wandering Jew', though I don't hear it called that nowadays. The appearance of The Bleeding Nun was a genuinely scary scene.
- Theodore strikes me as another bit of disguised gay fantasy, devoted to Raymond, attending to and singing for him. Am I reading too much into this? Is this typical of the younger male companion in Gothic books?
- Cunegonda on the cherry brandy - another funny older woman. These older women are very camp and amusing, almost like pantomime ugly sisters. Is this typical?

139lyzard
Ene 17, 2015, 6:41 pm

Coincidence generally plays a very big part in Gothic novels - that's one of the tropes that you just have to accept and go along with.

18th century language was still quite arcane and can be a bit confusing. It seems to have been taken for granted at the time that people would remember characters and plot points (perhaps note-taking was common?)---so often someone or something will be mentioned in the early chapters and you're supposed to remember it at the end without further clarification or explanation.

The Monk is *very* unusual for an English book in that respect. The whole bandit episode is derivative of a strain German popular novel, which Lewis was obviously very familiar with. German writing of this time included more overtly supernatural fiction than was ever the case in England, and it was much more violent too.

The Bleeding Nun sequence was so effective and popular that (as with the opera) it was often excised from the novel and sold as a chapbook in its own right. You can still find copies of works with titles like "The Story Of Raymond And Agnes".

Both Theodore and Cunegonda are examples of common character types of the time. The young servant passionately devoted to his "master" was a frequent inclusion, though it now seems over-the-top to us, and probably in this case nothing more was intended (though again, Lewis may have taken advantage of the fact that it *was* a stock character to exploit the characterisation for his own purposes). "Comic" older women like Cunegonda date back to Shakespeare and beyond and were stock supporting characters, though in plays more often than novels.

140Moomin_Mama
Ene 17, 2015, 6:49 pm

I thought that Lewis' older women were especially funny and one of my notes was that I thought Lewis did comedy and comic dialogue particularly well.

Did Lewis produce a novel that would have been recognisable and therefore less shocking to a German audience, or by combining elements of both German writing and the English Gothic did he produce something that would have been unusual to both English AND German readers? What was the reaction to translations of the book? What did the Spanish make of it, for example?

141lyzard
Ene 17, 2015, 8:25 pm

Probably German audiences would have been less shocked. English readers were *very* shocked, to a degree that seems to have taken Lewis by surprise; he produced progressively censored editions in response. (That said, the novel was a huge best-seller.) The book was also very popular in France. The first Spanish edition was published in 1821 (a translation of the French edition); there isn't much information on how it was received.

142Moomin_Mama
Ene 17, 2015, 8:55 pm

>141 lyzard: I'm not surprised it was popular in France. They seem to have a taste for the shockingly irreverent. De Sade was one of the suggestions for our January read, although so far most people have opted for The Castle of Otranto.

Once I got over the language and the confusion over the characters, I found the story (so far) to be melodramatic, camp and gruesome by turns, which surprised me as I had expected the Gothic novel to be more dark, brooding and menacing in atmosphere. The plot is entertaining with a lot going on and this would have made a thrilling serial.

Back to Ambrosio and Matilda:
- After over 100 pages of background story, as told by Raymond (which means readers are once or sometimes twice removed from the action, as he relates his own story and that of others), the story now feels more immediate and I'm more aware of how racy the material is. Think it was very clever of Lewis to cut off as Ambrosio and Matilda give in to their desires, quite early on in the book, before returning after a long digression.

I'll continue tomorrow; for now I'm off to make a start on Frankenstein, which bridges the gap between early Gothic (January's theme) and Victorian (March), or so I thought. February's theme is Supernatural, which is quite open - I'll probably pick something modern for that, or possibly re-read The Merciful Women, which is an ironic take on the circumstances in which The Vampyre and Frankenstein were written.

143Moomin_Mama
Ene 21, 2015, 7:44 am

Antonia, Leonella and Elvira receiving Lorenzo, and Elvira getting sick:

- Must be getting in to the spirit of the book; I'm moved by Antonia’s awkwardness in front of her mother regarding her feelings for Lorenzo, and incensed by the Prioress’ treatment of Lorenzo and Agnes when he tries to find out what has happened to her.

- Leonella is still a funny character but is more than that, what with being loyal and the first to see right through Ambrosio. I like how she is described as having a 'communicative disposition', and forgets Christoval the minute she gets attention from another man!

- Charmed by Elvira's teasing of her daughter from her sickbed -
"Stay, Stay! Now I recollect how it was. He was put into the Abbey quite a Child; The common People say that He fell from heaven, and was sent as a present to the Capuchins by the Virgin."
"That was very kind of her. And so He fell from heaven, Antonia? He must have had a terrible tumble."

- Elvira appearing to Antonia was very creepy - Lewis does great ghost scenes.

- Jacintha is yet another hysterically funny older woman; it was amusing how she wanted to marry and move in with a man to escape her haunted house and declared "There is Simon Gonzalez will have me any day of the week, and if I live till daybreak, I will marry him out of hand". Even funnier that he turned her down!

Really at this point I don't have any question, but any comments on my thoughts would be welcome.

144lyzard
Ene 21, 2015, 4:52 pm

Fabulous that you're "getting into the spirit" of The Monk! :)

We should highlight that Lewis's ghosts are another very unusual aspect of The Monk, and something else in which he was influenced by German literature, which often had supernatural themes. In England "real" ghosts were frowned upon, so you tend to get "explained away" hauntings instead. It was felt that only credulous, superstitious people (i.e. Catholics) could believe in ghosts.

145Moomin_Mama
Ene 22, 2015, 7:33 am

>144 lyzard: That's interesting, and good to know as a horror fan. I'm a fan of Victorian and Edwardian horror stories and there are plenty of unexplained ghosts in those; you'd never think, reading some of those, that the English ever shied away from that sort of thing.

So Lewis was satirising the Catholic Church on one hand, but adding the sorts of scenes that only Catholics would believe in on the other? Doesn't seem very consistent but I can't complain, as it led to an amazing horror novel.

The Festival of St. Clare to the end of the book:

- I have a feeling I know who Ambrosio is and that there is more to come about the fate of Agnes, but Matilda is a puzzle. Her only motive can be as a woman scorned, but I don't get the black magic. There's more to come, methinks.

- Death of the Prioress is extremely gruesome, really nasty.

- The only off note in the whole ending - why on Earth would one of the nuns hiding in the crypt just happen to have rosewater on her to soothe Agnes?

- The rape of Antonia was pretty bad, I was expecting something short like 'and then he ravished her'. It was a lot more graphic than I expected.

- The loss of Agnes’ baby, and her holding on to its little body, was heartbreaking (but quite sickeningly gross too, what with the decay and the worms).

- Found Ambrosio’s terror at the prospect of a second round of torture very convincing, being frozen and insensible with fear. You can see how he'd do anything to avoid more torture. It was easy to pity him at this point, despite his actions.

- ‘Sable wings’ – as in sable fur? Were demons and devils typically portrayed with furry wings?

- Ambrosio’s parentage and Agnes’ fate were expected but the Devil was not, and neither was Matilda being ‘a subordinate but crafty spirit’. Not sure what I expected but the ending was thrilling, dramatic and horrific. Very effective the way Lewis tied up Agnes and Lorenzo’s stories before Ambrosio’s, leaving the reader with the full force of the ending.

146lyzard
Editado: Ene 22, 2015, 4:50 pm

Well, the 18th century was "the Age of Reason": everyone was supposed to be very rational and unemotional about things, and to read informative non-fiction, because who needs silly novels?

Only then Walpole published The Castle Of Otranto and the public ate it up; so apparently people wanted silly novels after all. And in fact there was a subsequent explosion in novels and poetry that were completely aimed at the emotions, of which Gothic novels are one variety.

But even then there was some discomfort about the supernatural manifestations; so the novels that followed Walpole toned it down and toned it down, until Ann Radcliffe hit on the formula of four volumes of supernatural terror + one volume of rational explanation, allowing her readers to have their cake and eat it. The "only Catholics really believe this stuff" attitude also played into that, because it allowed the writers to play their terrors straight, but then turn around at the end and say "Silly Catholics!"

But of course, Lewis's ghosts are very real, which must have been very startling for his readers.

There are some horrifying scenes in The Monk which was also very unusual for the time, at least that he was so graphic about it. BUT---the thing that tends to seem weird to modern readers is that those scenes were *not* what really bothered people at the time, so much as Lewis's disrespectful attitude to religion and the church generally. (It was all right to jeer at Catholicism; it was not all right to jeer at Christianity.)

The ending was one of the things that Lewis progressively censored over his subsequent editions, which is one reason it's vital to have a restored version of the novel.

To your specific questions:
- certain nuns would have duties as healers or nurses and it is likely they carried simple remedies like smelling salts and rosewater around with them for use in emergencies
- "sable" means black

147Moomin_Mama
Ene 23, 2015, 4:15 pm

>146 lyzard: The Monk without THAT ending? It just wouldn't be the same book!

Black wings make much more sense, I had a hard time picturing a demon with furry wings, not very practical in all that hell-fire either :)

Thoughts on some of the quoted texts:

- The excerpt of the The Grave by Robert Blair was very appropriate and atmospheric. It’s apparently an example of ‘graveyard poetry’ which could have been an earlier sub-genre of our horror read. The Grave was illustrated by William Blake and I found a free online version with illustrations which I’m sure I’ll enjoy.

- ‘Alonzo the Brave and Fair Imogine’ is a fantastic fun and gruesome little poem, reminded me of Tim Burton in its macabre playfulness.

Thank you for lyzard, for answering my questions, and SqueakyChu for letting me jump on to the end of your thread. I thought we might have had a few more but I may be the only one who read The Monk for January. A shame really because it seems some of the other Gothic reads weren't very horror-y...

148lyzard
Ene 23, 2015, 4:54 pm

>145 Moomin_Mama: I also meant to say, regarding Victorian ghost stories---they had a separate emergence, they didn't really grow out of the Gothic novel. The Victorians were a bit death-obsessed and ghost stories were tied into that mindset. They weren't for "everyday" but became an acceptable diversion around Christmas time.

Meanwhile, the newly literate working classes were amusing themselves with the far more graphic "penny dreadfuls", things like Varney The Vampire and A String Of Pearls (the Sweeney Todd story). Towards the end of the century the horror story was co-opted by the middle classes and we get things like Dracula and Dr Jekyll And Mr Hyde.

>147 Moomin_Mama: It had the same ending but much shortened and with most of the gruesome detail removed.

I should note with regard to your last comment that most Gothic novels are *not* horror-y. Some of them, as I have mentioned, have apparent hauntings or other supernatural doings, and a lot of them have fairly graphic murders or torture scenes (the Inquisition is often the Big Bad in a Gothic novel, more anti-Catholicism), but the straight-out supernatural as presented by Lewis was extremely uncommon.

Perhaps the only other example I can mention is Melmoth The Wanderer by Charles Maturin, which was written in 1820 when the Gothic phase was dying as a kind of ne plus ultra summation of the genre: it crams pretty much every convention and cliché of the Gothic into one long novel. (The Wandering Jew pops up again!)

If you enjoyed The Monk you would probably enjoy Melmoth The Wanderer - BUT - I always recommend that people read more widely in the Gothic genre before tackling Melmoth, because you tend to miss too much otherwise.

Anyway---thank you for reopening this thread and making use of it. :)

Madeline (SqueakyChu) is still enjoying her Gothic reads (at least, I hope she is!) so we will probably be doing more of them. If you cared to join us, you would be very welcome.

149Moomin_Mama
Ene 23, 2015, 5:29 pm

> 148 Thank you for the invite. I will definitely read more Gothic novels - one of our group readers sold The Castle of Otranto to me on three words alone: Creepy Old Castle! You may yet see me on another thread. In the meantime I'd like to share something I came across:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/interactive/2014/may/09/reading-gothic-novel-pi...

150SqueakyChu
Ene 25, 2015, 8:23 pm

>148 lyzard:

Madeline (SqueakyChu) is still enjoying her Gothic reads (at least, I hope she is!)...If you cared to join us, you would be very welcome.

Liz, I love them! I also invite others to lurk on my threads when they're active and to use my threads for their own purposes when I'm finished! :)

so we will probably be doing more of them.

Hooray!!

151Moomin_Mama
Ene 25, 2015, 8:50 pm

>150 SqueakyChu: I know where to come when I try another Gothic. SqueakyChu (is Madeline too familiar?), how do you feel about The Monk looking back on it?

152SqueakyChu
Editado: Ene 25, 2015, 10:37 pm

Madeline is fine!

I loved The Monk - mostly because of the ending, but also because the monk himself was such an evil character. :) It was my favorite of the tutored reads I've done with Liz. My second favorite novel that I did with Liz was The Castle of Otranto because of all the weird happenings in the castle and perhaps also because it was considered the first gothic novel and the one from which I began to learn what a "real" gothic novel was.

153luvamystery65
Ene 25, 2015, 11:04 pm

Marking a spot here so I can come back on Tuesday and catch up. I am up to Volume III! This book is so so good!

I have to work a 12 hour shift tomorrow. :-(

154luvamystery65
Editado: Ene 28, 2015, 1:26 pm

I finished The Monk and I absolutely loved it! The ending was so perfect. I look forward to reading more of the books you have mentioned on the thread. I'll certainly look for your tutored threads to give me a boost to my reading.

Madeline brought up most of the questions I had and Liz you answered the rest on the first thread. Thank you both for being so generous with encouragement.

ETA: These were my favorite quotes.

“Now Antonia had observed the air with which Don Christoval had kissed this same hand; but as she drew conclusions from it somewhat different from her aunt's, she was wise enough to hold her tongue. As this is the only instance known of a woman's ever having done so, it was judged worthy to be recorded here.”

"He was of opinion, and not unwisely, that 'men have died, and worms have ate them, but not for love!"

155lyzard
Ene 28, 2015, 4:22 pm

That's great to hear, Roberta! I'm glad the threads were of use to you.

156SqueakyChu
Feb 4, 2015, 8:42 pm

>154 luvamystery65:

Roberta, I'm so happy that you found a home here on this thread during your read of The Monk. I do ask a lot of questions during my tutored reads so I'm glad you found them helpful. Of course, the answers by Liz are equally as important as the questions (if not more so).

The ending was definitely great.

I also loved the line that said "...she was wise enough to hold her tongue. As this is the only instance known of a woman's ever having done so, it was judged worthy to be recorded here.” Haha!

See you on another thread! :)

157BonnieJune54
Nov 11, 2016, 6:48 pm

Thanks Liz and Madeline. I have just finished The Monk with your help. It was wonderfully unrestrained.
I never guessed those covers were literal spoilers for the ending.

158lyzard
Nov 11, 2016, 8:23 pm

Thank you for letting us know that you found this thread helpful, Bonnie!

Yes, I get a bit angry about those covers---but as you say, who could possibly guess---!? :D

159SqueakyChu
Dic 5, 2016, 6:58 pm

>157 BonnieJune54: My reaction was the same as yours! It never even crossed my mind that the picture was a spoiler for the end. I'm glad you found our thread and enjoyed the book!

160BonnieJune54
Dic 5, 2016, 10:53 pm

>159 SqueakyChu: Talk about being in the devil's clutches!

161lyzard
Dic 5, 2016, 10:59 pm

Talk about asking for it! :D

162SqueakyChu
Dic 6, 2016, 5:33 pm