Fer de Lance - comments anyone? Spoilers
CharlasThe Black Orchid (A Nero Wolfe Group)
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1MrsLee
I, against my better judgment, and the evidence of my TBR pile, am going to start reading Fer de Lance while I'm on vacation this week. I am in the middle of another fiction, and have to start a Dorothy Sayers book for a different group, but I can't seem to keep my paws off of Stout. I also enjoy talking with this group about the books.
If anyone would like to read along and make comments, good. If anyone has already read it and wants to comment, good.
If anyone has not read it, I don't recommend you read this thread until you do.
If anyone would like to read along and make comments, good. If anyone has already read it and wants to comment, good.
If anyone has not read it, I don't recommend you read this thread until you do.
2cogitno
Having recenty re-read Fer-de-Lance (during the Zeck trilogy group read), I don't think I could undertake it again. But I'd be happy to butt-in and add my two cents every now and then.
Keep an eye out for the inconsistencies between this and the later novels. For unaccountable reasons, I took great delight in them.
Keep an eye out for the inconsistencies between this and the later novels. For unaccountable reasons, I took great delight in them.
4wormread
This is one of my favourite Wolfe books. It is a pleasure to have an excuse to read it again.
6MrsLee
It's great to see all the interest, please, everyone, post questions and comments as you have them, I'm on vacation, and I forgot Fer de Lance! I'll catch up when I get home. I've read it twice already, so no one will spoil it for me. In the other read throughs, we usually just list the chapter we are talking about in our individual postings.
7MrsLee
O.K. got my book, so here are my thoughts on Chapter one and the book in general.
My book has a nasty snake on the cover, which not only spoils the mystery (if you don't know what a fer de lance is, I didn't the first time I read it), but it means I have to hold it carefully so as not to touch the picture of the snake.
I had some fun Googling photos of 1933 & 34 roadsters and imagining Fritz and all that beer. I would post one here, but we are not told which type of roadster.
Prohibition was from 1920-1933, but in March of '33, FDR passed the Cullen-Harrison bill to allow 3.2 beer (3.2 percent alcohol). I guess that's what Wolfe is trying out. (thank you Wikipedia) I looked up the calorie content for 6 quarts of beer. At the friendly estimation of 150c. per 12 oz., that works out to 2400 calories. That's just his beer intake per day. At least two days worth of calories for me.
I think this is the only book where Saul is on the weekly payroll, is that correct? A reference to the Depression. These books are all very datable, and yet never seem out of date, if you know what I mean.
In this first chapter, we have Archie, Wolfe and Fritz. Full blown, lovable and eccentric. I do notice that Archie seems a bit more enthusiastic about Wolfe's skills and abilities here, and Wolfe seems to enjoy explaining them, more like Holmes, than in later books.
My book has a nasty snake on the cover, which not only spoils the mystery (if you don't know what a fer de lance is, I didn't the first time I read it), but it means I have to hold it carefully so as not to touch the picture of the snake.
I had some fun Googling photos of 1933 & 34 roadsters and imagining Fritz and all that beer. I would post one here, but we are not told which type of roadster.
Prohibition was from 1920-1933, but in March of '33, FDR passed the Cullen-Harrison bill to allow 3.2 beer (3.2 percent alcohol). I guess that's what Wolfe is trying out. (thank you Wikipedia) I looked up the calorie content for 6 quarts of beer. At the friendly estimation of 150c. per 12 oz., that works out to 2400 calories. That's just his beer intake per day. At least two days worth of calories for me.
I think this is the only book where Saul is on the weekly payroll, is that correct? A reference to the Depression. These books are all very datable, and yet never seem out of date, if you know what I mean.
In this first chapter, we have Archie, Wolfe and Fritz. Full blown, lovable and eccentric. I do notice that Archie seems a bit more enthusiastic about Wolfe's skills and abilities here, and Wolfe seems to enjoy explaining them, more like Holmes, than in later books.
8Linkmeister
After reading all of the books about a dozen times each, I still find myself annoyed that Stout didn't give us more of Archie and Wolfe's "backstories" in that first book. Virtually every other series detective (pair or not) has a past which not only led him or her to his current job/vocation but informed his actions after taking it up, and the faithful reader is told. Not these two.
Not that I want Robert Goldsborough or somebody to write that story, I hasten to add!
Not that I want Robert Goldsborough or somebody to write that story, I hasten to add!
9MrsLee
I've never read a Stout biography, but I wonder what went on in his head when he came up with this. Any books of his written before Wolfe, which I have read, were...forgettable. Archie and Nero though, come out fully fleshed and ready to go, then he never quit. I read somewhere that he never re-wrote anything. He just wrote the books straight through and sent in his first draft, usually not needing much change.
He does give some back story in later books about Wolfe at least. Though I'm not sure it tells why he became a detective. It says something that after 40 some years of writing, we still want to know more. I agree, I only want to know more from Stout.
He does give some back story in later books about Wolfe at least. Though I'm not sure it tells why he became a detective. It says something that after 40 some years of writing, we still want to know more. I agree, I only want to know more from Stout.
10wormread
I'm not sure that Nero Wolfe's character would have worked as well if we had known more about his past. I think part of the reason that the character is so good is because of the air of mystique about him. If Stout had laid everything on the table about Wolfe he would not have been as interesting. I also think that this is the case for all of the characters. It occurs to me that we are never given a full background for any of the main characters. I do not think that this was an accident.
11MrsLee
#10 - There seems to be a fine line between too much info and not enough. Thinking on some of my favorite detectives: Lord Peter, Miss Marple, Poirot, Cadfael, Holmes and Mary Russell, I wouldn't say I know any more about them than about Wolfe and Archie...maybe. But some detectives whom I would like to like, Dalgliesh in particular here, just don't have enough to seem human. At least when I've read the books, he is always apart, never quite involved. We receive a few hints of his great grief, but never much more.
Chapter 1
I thought I would avoid this, but then what good is a discussion if you avoid controversial items? "Of course, Archie, splendid ears. But there was nothing to hear; the lady made no sound audible at this distance. And Fritz did not speak to her; but in greeting Fred there was a courtesy in his tone which he saves for softer flesh. If I should hear Fritz using that tone to a lone man I'd send him to a psychoanalyst at once."
Is this a reference to homosexuality and Wolfe's opinion of it? Or at least the prominent reaction of those days to it? Or am I reading something into the text? I never remember homosexuality being referred to before, but that could be because I would be more likely to notice a slight to women.
Chapter 2
I wonder if this is when Wolfe decided to save newspapers? Seems more reasonable than having Archie run down to buy them every time they need to consult. I suppose though, that he only had to run down for multiple copies.
If I did it correctly, the above is the orchid which Wolfe hoped to get for Christmas if the case panned out.
Isn't it a shame that Anna Fiore didn't know the honor bestowed upon her by Wolfe standing?
Chapter 1
I thought I would avoid this, but then what good is a discussion if you avoid controversial items? "Of course, Archie, splendid ears. But there was nothing to hear; the lady made no sound audible at this distance. And Fritz did not speak to her; but in greeting Fred there was a courtesy in his tone which he saves for softer flesh. If I should hear Fritz using that tone to a lone man I'd send him to a psychoanalyst at once."
Is this a reference to homosexuality and Wolfe's opinion of it? Or at least the prominent reaction of those days to it? Or am I reading something into the text? I never remember homosexuality being referred to before, but that could be because I would be more likely to notice a slight to women.
Chapter 2
I wonder if this is when Wolfe decided to save newspapers? Seems more reasonable than having Archie run down to buy them every time they need to consult. I suppose though, that he only had to run down for multiple copies.
If I did it correctly, the above is the orchid which Wolfe hoped to get for Christmas if the case panned out.
Isn't it a shame that Anna Fiore didn't know the honor bestowed upon her by Wolfe standing?
12Linkmeister
The book takes place in the thirties, and there wasn't a lot known (or publicized, anyway) about homosexuality.
From Healthy Minds
I'd say Wolfe was merely reflecting what was the general position of the medical community at the time.
From Healthy Minds
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association’s Board of Trustees removed homosexuality from its official diagnostic manual, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (DSM II). The action was taken following a review of the scientific literature and consultation with experts in the field. The experts found that homosexuality does not meet the criteria to be considered a mental illness.
I'd say Wolfe was merely reflecting what was the general position of the medical community at the time.
13MrsLee
Thanks Linkmeister, I suspected that was the way things were then.
Ch. 3 The layout of the house changed after this book. In later books, I think Fritz had a room in the basement, Archie was on the 3rd floor, the orchids and Theodore were on the roof, and Wolfe and the guest room on the 2nd floor. I wonder what else was on the 3rd floor besides Archie? He never made it sound as if his room was large enough to cover the whole floor.
" I had lived there seven years, and it certainly was home; and seemed likely to remain so for another seven, or even twenty-seven, for the only girl I had ever been really soft on had found another bargain she liked better. That was how I happened to meet Wolfe-but that story isn't for me to tell, at least not yet."
How's that for half hints and obscurity. Seems like good fodder for fanfic to me. Does seem to conflict with something I read (was it in our Zeck read-through cogitno?) elsewhere about Wolfe getting Archie out of trouble with the law when he was younger. Maybe there is no conflict and they fit like a puzzle. Hmm.
Archie's mom is alive in later books isn't she? Or does he just say that in one of his, shall we say, expansive moments when he isn't always accurate?
I just read about the term "throw up the sponge." We usually say throw in the towel now, but I guess in older times they used a sponge in prizefighting and when one opponent was down and out, his side threw in the sponge as an indication that the fight was over.
http://www.chadwickorchids.com/Cattleya/aurea.htm - A site to look at the orchid mentioned in this chapter. Very pretty. Reading about the way orchids used to be gathered makes them seem not so "gentrified." More like Indiana Jones down in S. America.
Help me out with this, I'm not very good at double-speak.
"Good luck, Mr. O'Grady. I give you this assurance, and you may take my word for what they are worth: if at any time we should discover anything that we believe would be of significance or help to you, we shall communicate with you at once."
Are the key words here, "we believe" and "to you?" Because I know Wolfe has no intention whatsoever of talking to him again.
I want to say I agree with Archie on the proper use for golf clubs.
Ch. 3 The layout of the house changed after this book. In later books, I think Fritz had a room in the basement, Archie was on the 3rd floor, the orchids and Theodore were on the roof, and Wolfe and the guest room on the 2nd floor. I wonder what else was on the 3rd floor besides Archie? He never made it sound as if his room was large enough to cover the whole floor.
" I had lived there seven years, and it certainly was home; and seemed likely to remain so for another seven, or even twenty-seven, for the only girl I had ever been really soft on had found another bargain she liked better. That was how I happened to meet Wolfe-but that story isn't for me to tell, at least not yet."
How's that for half hints and obscurity. Seems like good fodder for fanfic to me. Does seem to conflict with something I read (was it in our Zeck read-through cogitno?) elsewhere about Wolfe getting Archie out of trouble with the law when he was younger. Maybe there is no conflict and they fit like a puzzle. Hmm.
Archie's mom is alive in later books isn't she? Or does he just say that in one of his, shall we say, expansive moments when he isn't always accurate?
I just read about the term "throw up the sponge." We usually say throw in the towel now, but I guess in older times they used a sponge in prizefighting and when one opponent was down and out, his side threw in the sponge as an indication that the fight was over.
http://www.chadwickorchids.com/Cattleya/aurea.htm - A site to look at the orchid mentioned in this chapter. Very pretty. Reading about the way orchids used to be gathered makes them seem not so "gentrified." More like Indiana Jones down in S. America.
Help me out with this, I'm not very good at double-speak.
"Good luck, Mr. O'Grady. I give you this assurance, and you may take my word for what they are worth: if at any time we should discover anything that we believe would be of significance or help to you, we shall communicate with you at once."
Are the key words here, "we believe" and "to you?" Because I know Wolfe has no intention whatsoever of talking to him again.
I want to say I agree with Archie on the proper use for golf clubs.
14MrsLee
Chapter 5 - I've been trying to see if Joy Boys was a real radio show or not, and what on earth would strike Archie as vulgar that could be broadcast on the radio? I came up with two interesting things, though I don't know if either of them are related to the reference in this book. The first one is certainly not what the book was referring to, but I wonder if the book somehow inspired them, I doubt it. The second? Could be, but I couldn't find anything which said they were on the radio.
1. Joy Boys of radio. 1955-1972 WRC radio in Washington DC, Ed Walker & Willard Scott. A sort of comedy, news show, possibly.
2. This information was found at: http://nfo.net/usa/c1.html Blanche Calloway and Her Joy Boys. 1925-1935 She was Cab's mentor and elder sister. Possibly the first black woman to front an all-male orchestra. Shared her brother's high energy performance style, her work was rougher, raunchier and wilder than Cab's. In 1933 the Pittsburgh Courier had a survey of 38 outstanding Black Orchestras. Blanche's Joy Boys ranked 9th, 5 points in back of Louis Armstrong. I found one of their recordings on Rhapsody.com, but it sounded pretty tame to me. No vocals.
There was also a band at the time called Fess Williams and His Joy Boys.
At the end of this chapter, do you think that Wolfe understands Anna better than Archie because he was also from an immigrant culture and background? Or do you think Stout had even decided that about Wolfe yet?
edited to add Fess Williams info.
1. Joy Boys of radio. 1955-1972 WRC radio in Washington DC, Ed Walker & Willard Scott. A sort of comedy, news show, possibly.
2. This information was found at: http://nfo.net/usa/c1.html Blanche Calloway and Her Joy Boys. 1925-1935 She was Cab's mentor and elder sister. Possibly the first black woman to front an all-male orchestra. Shared her brother's high energy performance style, her work was rougher, raunchier and wilder than Cab's. In 1933 the Pittsburgh Courier had a survey of 38 outstanding Black Orchestras. Blanche's Joy Boys ranked 9th, 5 points in back of Louis Armstrong. I found one of their recordings on Rhapsody.com, but it sounded pretty tame to me. No vocals.
There was also a band at the time called Fess Williams and His Joy Boys.
At the end of this chapter, do you think that Wolfe understands Anna better than Archie because he was also from an immigrant culture and background? Or do you think Stout had even decided that about Wolfe yet?
edited to add Fess Williams info.
15MrsLee
Linkmeister - How come my link in #14 showed up as a link with blue letters and all, but not the one in #13? I didn't do anything different, because I forgot how to do a true link.
16Linkmeister
Well, here's where the Firefox Linkification add-on fails me, because it converts what it thinks is a URL whether there's a failure or not. Both of them show up as links (and take me to the correct place when clicked) to me.
18cogitno
Mrs Lee:
Message 14: The Brownstone's changing geography is source of (delightful) confusion. Below is a link to very patient chronicler of its changing shape:
http://johnclaytonsr.com/Wolfe/References.htm
I've given up trying to embed links and now rely on the (Linkmeister's) Linkification.
Doublespeak: Wolfe is an accomplished liar, though he would express it differently (with doublespeak).
Golf Clubs: Useful from propping open windows in holiday homes. It is usefull to have a full set so that the window opeining can be optimised for the vagaies of climate.
Message 14: The Brownstone's changing geography is source of (delightful) confusion. Below is a link to very patient chronicler of its changing shape:
http://johnclaytonsr.com/Wolfe/References.htm
I've given up trying to embed links and now rely on the (Linkmeister's) Linkification.
Doublespeak: Wolfe is an accomplished liar, though he would express it differently (with doublespeak).
Golf Clubs: Useful from propping open windows in holiday homes. It is usefull to have a full set so that the window opeining can be optimised for the vagaies of climate.
19MrsLee
In all the downtime here, I've finished the book, so I'm going to post the rest of my comments in several posts and others can add to them as they see fit. As the story progresses, I tend to devour it more quickly and I come up with fewer comments.
Chapter 6 - I don't know if I have relapses, but I've certainly had cooking orgies. Sometimes I have a windfall ingredient, sometimes the mood just hits and I cook all day long. Especially when I'm trying to even out eggs. 3 egg yolks in this recipe, 7 egg whites in the other. Archie has it right too, those meals cannot be depended on.
What do you suppose a "Bloomingdale mood" is?
Chapter 7 - I am thinking that the reference to Snyder "one-handed spear of a hot liner" is probably baseball, but the closest name I can come up with is Duke Snider.
There are lots of wonderful orchid names to look up in this chapter, but I'm too lazy to do it tonight.
Chapter 8 - Decoration day = our Memorial day
Any guesses as to what illness Mrs. Barstow is suffering?
Chapter 6 - I don't know if I have relapses, but I've certainly had cooking orgies. Sometimes I have a windfall ingredient, sometimes the mood just hits and I cook all day long. Especially when I'm trying to even out eggs. 3 egg yolks in this recipe, 7 egg whites in the other. Archie has it right too, those meals cannot be depended on.
What do you suppose a "Bloomingdale mood" is?
Chapter 7 - I am thinking that the reference to Snyder "one-handed spear of a hot liner" is probably baseball, but the closest name I can come up with is Duke Snider.
There are lots of wonderful orchid names to look up in this chapter, but I'm too lazy to do it tonight.
Chapter 8 - Decoration day = our Memorial day
Any guesses as to what illness Mrs. Barstow is suffering?
20MrsLee
Chapter 10 - It occurs to me that I always take the words of authors blithely when reading mysteries, about poisons especially. Does anyone know if the statements in this chapter about snake venom, etc. are true, or were true in 1933?
My husband says this is his favorite mystery of the canon. After this he just reads the books for the fun of the characters. Not sure I agree with him, I thought this one was fairly obvious.
Chapter 12 - How old would these caddies be? What kind of a school do they attend where a strange man could pull up and drive away with them without consulting parents? They don't sound college age to me.
Guess that's all for tonight, I'm so tired my head is buzzing.
The story Wolfe told about the 100 psychologists. Did this really happen? Did Stout make it up? Because I hear similar ones to it often.
I couldn't find the movie referred to here with the dance to "Spring on the Mountaintop"
My husband says this is his favorite mystery of the canon. After this he just reads the books for the fun of the characters. Not sure I agree with him, I thought this one was fairly obvious.
Chapter 12 - How old would these caddies be? What kind of a school do they attend where a strange man could pull up and drive away with them without consulting parents? They don't sound college age to me.
Guess that's all for tonight, I'm so tired my head is buzzing.
The story Wolfe told about the 100 psychologists. Did this really happen? Did Stout make it up? Because I hear similar ones to it often.
I couldn't find the movie referred to here with the dance to "Spring on the Mountaintop"
21MrsLee
Hello MrsLee, how are you? I'm fine thank you, MrsLee, and you? Anyway...
Chapter 13 - A thought occurred to me when reading about Archie switching the agenda from seeing the D.A. first and Kimball second because if he went to the D.A., he knew he would never see Kimball. Do you think one of Wolfe's blind-spots is that he expects others to behave in a rational and reasonable manner? Maybe that's one of the ways Archie complements Wolfe.
What on earth was the whole tormenting my mother thing about? Encouraging confession? Weird. Does it mention Wolfe's mother in Budapest anywhere else in the canon?
Chapter 14 - So if it isn't murder when another party gets killed while your trying to kill someone, what is it? Manslaughter? The penalty is less for that isn't it? I think you should get a worse penalty than murder if you are so careless to kill someone inadvertently as you are trying to kill another.
"I never like to eat late at night unless it seems unavoidable, but I went to the kitchen anyhow for a glass of milk and to look sadly over the remains like a man visiting the graveyard where his sweetheart's bones are resting...While I was eating breakfast Fritz told me about the dinner I had missed, but I was only politely interested; yesterday's meals never concern me much."
Talk about a man who is complacent about his future meals!
Chapter 15 - Some fun Googled facts:
Lynn Fontanne, very famous stage actress especially in the 20's, but she had a long career.
Spiggoty, (learned from the Urban dictionary), a derogatory term for Latin American's who do not speak English very well, derived from the term "No speaka da English."
"I am too sensitive to strangers, that is why I keep these layers over my nerves."
Anatomically speaking, I'm not sure that is correct. Are the nerves not always near the surface of the skin, regardless of the fat? Nice excuse though. :)
I don't know what to say about the end of this chapter, except...Ewwwwww! And I hold my breath through it, the first time I read it and every other time since.
Chapter 13 - A thought occurred to me when reading about Archie switching the agenda from seeing the D.A. first and Kimball second because if he went to the D.A., he knew he would never see Kimball. Do you think one of Wolfe's blind-spots is that he expects others to behave in a rational and reasonable manner? Maybe that's one of the ways Archie complements Wolfe.
What on earth was the whole tormenting my mother thing about? Encouraging confession? Weird. Does it mention Wolfe's mother in Budapest anywhere else in the canon?
Chapter 14 - So if it isn't murder when another party gets killed while your trying to kill someone, what is it? Manslaughter? The penalty is less for that isn't it? I think you should get a worse penalty than murder if you are so careless to kill someone inadvertently as you are trying to kill another.
"I never like to eat late at night unless it seems unavoidable, but I went to the kitchen anyhow for a glass of milk and to look sadly over the remains like a man visiting the graveyard where his sweetheart's bones are resting...While I was eating breakfast Fritz told me about the dinner I had missed, but I was only politely interested; yesterday's meals never concern me much."
Talk about a man who is complacent about his future meals!
Chapter 15 - Some fun Googled facts:
Lynn Fontanne, very famous stage actress especially in the 20's, but she had a long career.
Spiggoty, (learned from the Urban dictionary), a derogatory term for Latin American's who do not speak English very well, derived from the term "No speaka da English."
"I am too sensitive to strangers, that is why I keep these layers over my nerves."
Anatomically speaking, I'm not sure that is correct. Are the nerves not always near the surface of the skin, regardless of the fat? Nice excuse though. :)
I don't know what to say about the end of this chapter, except...Ewwwwww! And I hold my breath through it, the first time I read it and every other time since.
22MrsLee
Chapter 16 - "Except for the bushmaster, it is the most dreaded of all the vipers." True? Seems every time I hear a nature show, they are always touting a different snake as "the most dreaded one of all." For me, it's whatever one is in front of me that is the most dreaded.
Shouldn't they have saved the snake and given it to the police? Analysis or something?
I like the mood change here when Maria Maffei enters the room. Archie has been elated, the hound on the scent. Faced with the reality of the sorrow caused he is brought back to earth. Do you ever feel that murder is taken too lightly in these and other mysteries, or does the lightness help us look at things which otherwise might be too painful? I know I have no interest in "true crime" stories.
Orrie? Tobacco juice??? And ugh, cigarettes with milk. I for one am glad Archie didn't smoke much, if at all, in later books.
Chapter 17 - I would still like to know what sort of mental or other illness the mother had that could be cured by the father's death if he was such a great guy.
Of course the whole packet thing is good, and convenient for the author, but he did prepare us for it. Personally, I don't see why the $10 bill clinches it. It was signed a year before, could he (Manuel) not say he spent/lost it awhile ago?
Does the office of D.A. pay so much, especially in the 30's, that he could drive a limousine and write a check for ten thousand dollars? Or did Anderson have private means?
Shouldn't they have saved the snake and given it to the police? Analysis or something?
I like the mood change here when Maria Maffei enters the room. Archie has been elated, the hound on the scent. Faced with the reality of the sorrow caused he is brought back to earth. Do you ever feel that murder is taken too lightly in these and other mysteries, or does the lightness help us look at things which otherwise might be too painful? I know I have no interest in "true crime" stories.
Orrie? Tobacco juice??? And ugh, cigarettes with milk. I for one am glad Archie didn't smoke much, if at all, in later books.
Chapter 17 - I would still like to know what sort of mental or other illness the mother had that could be cured by the father's death if he was such a great guy.
Of course the whole packet thing is good, and convenient for the author, but he did prepare us for it. Personally, I don't see why the $10 bill clinches it. It was signed a year before, could he (Manuel) not say he spent/lost it awhile ago?
Does the office of D.A. pay so much, especially in the 30's, that he could drive a limousine and write a check for ten thousand dollars? Or did Anderson have private means?
23Linkmeister
If memory serves, most of the prosecutors in the Wolfe canon had political ambitions, and even then must have needed private money to help finance them.
I think the bit about the bushmaster as deadliest snake is sort of a nod to Holmes; invariably that was the tone Holmes took when lecturing Watson, wasn't it? "Let me enlighten you, Doctor." It always annoyed me; here's a well-traveled man who's been wounded in Afghanistan in the service of his country and is a medical doctor to boot, yet Holmes always seemed to talk down to him.
I think the bit about the bushmaster as deadliest snake is sort of a nod to Holmes; invariably that was the tone Holmes took when lecturing Watson, wasn't it? "Let me enlighten you, Doctor." It always annoyed me; here's a well-traveled man who's been wounded in Afghanistan in the service of his country and is a medical doctor to boot, yet Holmes always seemed to talk down to him.
24MrsLee
I forgot about the politics involved Linkmeister. Of course. I think the Holmes and Watson thing bothered me more in some of the re-tellings of the stories. I read them all about 5 or so years ago and remember thinking that Holmes didn't treat him as badly as I had thought, but I agree with you, I never like it when Watson is portrayed as an idiot, because he obviously wasn't.
I'm on the home stretch now.
Chapter 19 - Do you think Archie's statement is valid, that Wolfe killed E.D. Kimball? Technically it's not. Wolfe warned Mr. Kimball. He could have, with due caution, decided not to go up in the plane. Manuel is the one who crashed it.
Does anyone feel bad for E.D. Kimball, after his cold-blooded retelling of killing the woman and his treatment of the boy? He didn't even care enough to remember it as a possible smear on his character or past. I thought Stout did a good job with that scene, setting it up so that we would not feel badly about what Wolfe did.
That's all from me folks, it would be great to hear what some of you have to say as well. ;)
I'm on the home stretch now.
Chapter 19 - Do you think Archie's statement is valid, that Wolfe killed E.D. Kimball? Technically it's not. Wolfe warned Mr. Kimball. He could have, with due caution, decided not to go up in the plane. Manuel is the one who crashed it.
Does anyone feel bad for E.D. Kimball, after his cold-blooded retelling of killing the woman and his treatment of the boy? He didn't even care enough to remember it as a possible smear on his character or past. I thought Stout did a good job with that scene, setting it up so that we would not feel badly about what Wolfe did.
That's all from me folks, it would be great to hear what some of you have to say as well. ;)
25wormread
It is not so much that Wolfe killed E.D Kimball but that he allowed him to be killed. You could say that it was murder by proxy.
Archie does not yet realise that Wolfe believes in justice, which is not always served by the law.
Archie does not yet realise that Wolfe believes in justice, which is not always served by the law.
26MrsLee
As much as I admire Wolfe, and almost always agree with him, it still frightens me to think of individuals meting out their idea of justice without any checks or balances.
I still think Wolfe warned Kimball, and so it was his choice to go with his son where he knew his life was in danger. Perhaps life didn't mean much to him when he realized what a mistake he had made. These guys don't seem to have the concept of repentance and forgiveness.
I still think Wolfe warned Kimball, and so it was his choice to go with his son where he knew his life was in danger. Perhaps life didn't mean much to him when he realized what a mistake he had made. These guys don't seem to have the concept of repentance and forgiveness.
27wormread
I think that both Kimball and Wolfe knew that no amount of repentance could make up for what he had done.
I do not exactly condone Wolfe's actions, as you say, he meats out what he believes to be justice without checks or balances but then I think that in a lot of ways this is also what the law does and in that way he is no worse. Perhaps this is what Stout was trying to point out. As we know, this is not the only book where something like this happens.
I am inclined to think that Kimball knew what was coming but not necessarily from Wolfe. I think that you are right that life didn't mean much to him.
Hope that made some sense. Apologies if it didn't.
I do not exactly condone Wolfe's actions, as you say, he meats out what he believes to be justice without checks or balances but then I think that in a lot of ways this is also what the law does and in that way he is no worse. Perhaps this is what Stout was trying to point out. As we know, this is not the only book where something like this happens.
I am inclined to think that Kimball knew what was coming but not necessarily from Wolfe. I think that you are right that life didn't mean much to him.
Hope that made some sense. Apologies if it didn't.
28MrsLee
Perfect sense to me, I think we are in agreement, I just always like to bring up other possible scenarios. :)
29tgpaul Primer Mensaje
I wish I had known you were posting because I was coincidentally reading this story at the same time. This was first Nero Wolfe novel, although I was a big fan of the Nero Wolfe series with Timothy Hutton. What amazes me is how fully developed the characters are even in this first book. And I love the dialog, and not just the dialog between Wolfe and Archie. I loved this little conversation between Archie and Anderson's secretary:
“Would it be much bother to tell me where Mr. Derwin has gone to.”
“He’s in Mr. Anderson’s office telephoning.”
“You wouldn’t lie to me just for practice?”
“I don’t need any practice, thanks.”
“Would it be much bother to tell me where Mr. Derwin has gone to.”
“He’s in Mr. Anderson’s office telephoning.”
“You wouldn’t lie to me just for practice?”
“I don’t need any practice, thanks.”
30MrsLee
tgpaul - I agree with you on those little conversations. They are great, and salted all through the story.
So are you going to read the next book in the canon? I think that would be The League of Frightened Men. If you do, lets post comments on it here. I would be happy to read it too. By the way, I loved Timothy Hutton as Archie too, but I had to think about it first. I always had Archie a little more suave than that, or handsome or something, but after a couple of episodes, I was convinced.
Linkmeister - I just looked at this website, which you posted here ages ago:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8907/nero.html
Which has all the books listed in order, but also in chronological order, in which they say that Fer de Lance is not first, but others are first. Is that so? I always thought the previous cases referred to in Fer de Lance were imaginary, but did Stout go ahead and write stories for them? If so, I would almost rather begin again and start reading in that order. Anyone else have thoughts or ideas about this?
So are you going to read the next book in the canon? I think that would be The League of Frightened Men. If you do, lets post comments on it here. I would be happy to read it too. By the way, I loved Timothy Hutton as Archie too, but I had to think about it first. I always had Archie a little more suave than that, or handsome or something, but after a couple of episodes, I was convinced.
Linkmeister - I just looked at this website, which you posted here ages ago:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8907/nero.html
Which has all the books listed in order, but also in chronological order, in which they say that Fer de Lance is not first, but others are first. Is that so? I always thought the previous cases referred to in Fer de Lance were imaginary, but did Stout go ahead and write stories for them? If so, I would almost rather begin again and start reading in that order. Anyone else have thoughts or ideas about this?
31Linkmeister
Mrs. Lee, Winifred (at the time of site creation a PhD. student at McGill or somewhere like it in Canada; now an anthro/archaeologist in Australia) has the books alpha first, but scroll down on that front page and they're in chronological order. That's the section with plot summaries. FdL is indeed first, followed by LoFM, The Rubber Band and The Red Box. She's got publication dates on there.
I corresponded a few times with her because she needed help finding books Wolfe read within the novels/stories for the reading list. She graciously credited me with helping, too.
I corresponded a few times with her because she needed help finding books Wolfe read within the novels/stories for the reading list. She graciously credited me with helping, too.
33tgpaul
I am just about finished with "And Be a Villain" so as soon as I finish that I can start LoFM. Want to pick a date to aim to start?
Dialog from "And Be a Villain"...
The victim (Cyril Orchard) has been killed by cyanide in a bottle of a soda called Hi-Spot. Wolfe and Archie are working out the mechanics of the killing with samples of Hi-Spot.
Archie starts:
"If Orchard had never never drunk Hi-Spot before he wouldn't know whether it tasted right or not, and even if he didn't like it, they were on the air and just for politeness he would have gulped some down. Anyway he drank enough to kill him, so what does it matter what we think?"
"He may have drunk it before. Anyway, the murderer would have had to assume that he might have. Would the difference in taste be too great a hazard?"
"I see." I sipped. "Not so bad." I sipped again. "The only way to really tell is to drink this and then drink some cyanide. Have you got some?"
"Don't bubble, Archie."
Tom
Dialog from "And Be a Villain"...
The victim (Cyril Orchard) has been killed by cyanide in a bottle of a soda called Hi-Spot. Wolfe and Archie are working out the mechanics of the killing with samples of Hi-Spot.
Archie starts:
"If Orchard had never never drunk Hi-Spot before he wouldn't know whether it tasted right or not, and even if he didn't like it, they were on the air and just for politeness he would have gulped some down. Anyway he drank enough to kill him, so what does it matter what we think?"
"He may have drunk it before. Anyway, the murderer would have had to assume that he might have. Would the difference in taste be too great a hazard?"
"I see." I sipped. "Not so bad." I sipped again. "The only way to really tell is to drink this and then drink some cyanide. Have you got some?"
"Don't bubble, Archie."
Tom
34MrsLee
#33 - *snicker* You might enjoy the thread on Zeck here, we read through the trilogy together awhile ago. Just don't read too far, or better yet, wait until you've read the trilogy too. The nice thing about these threads is that it doesn't really matter when you join them. Most people in this group have this stuff memorized I think. :)
How's about we start posting comments on Friday the 29th? Life is crazy here right now, I'm selling fireworks for my son's sports teams. If you get there before me, just start a new post thread with a header like the one in this one. Or with whatever header you want. Who am I to tell you what to do! :) I'm finishing a Thornton Wilder book, then I'll start the League. Probably tomorrow.
How's about we start posting comments on Friday the 29th? Life is crazy here right now, I'm selling fireworks for my son's sports teams. If you get there before me, just start a new post thread with a header like the one in this one. Or with whatever header you want. Who am I to tell you what to do! :) I'm finishing a Thornton Wilder book, then I'll start the League. Probably tomorrow.
35etrainer
MrsLee, I really wanted to participate in the FdL thread; but, as you say, life is crazy here right now, for the past several weeks, and into the future! I just finished Too Many Women and have about 8 or 9 more books to go and I will have read all the Nero Wolfes. I started about the middle of last year rereading those I already had and then obtaining and reading the rest. FdL was the first - a re-read.
Despite not reading along, I enjoyed the thread.
LoFM is still on my list to get. It's surprising how frequently 'new' used Nero Wolfe paperbacks show up the used bookstore. I have hardly had a break in reading for lack of one. These last several will probably be difficult, however.
I'll try to refrain from peeking at the LoFM thread if I can't locate the book in time!
Despite not reading along, I enjoyed the thread.
LoFM is still on my list to get. It's surprising how frequently 'new' used Nero Wolfe paperbacks show up the used bookstore. I have hardly had a break in reading for lack of one. These last several will probably be difficult, however.
I'll try to refrain from peeking at the LoFM thread if I can't locate the book in time!
36wormread
I have also just finished Too Many Women. What did you think of it?
I liked it a lot. An enjoyable read.
I liked it a lot. An enjoyable read.
37MrsLee
#35 & 36 - Why not start a thread on Too Many Women while it is fresh in your mind? I don't see why they have to be in order, just whatever book someone is reading and wants to talk about.
etrainer - I wish I had your bookstore! Mine never has certain authors, usually the ones I want. Whenever I ask they say, "No, that author rarely comes in because people want to keep their books." I had to buy most of my collection new. Though occasionally I find used hardbacks at the library sale.
etrainer - I wish I had your bookstore! Mine never has certain authors, usually the ones I want. Whenever I ask they say, "No, that author rarely comes in because people want to keep their books." I had to buy most of my collection new. Though occasionally I find used hardbacks at the library sale.
38MrsLee
Bumping this because I came to the link to it while researching the reference to The Joy Boys. LOL I forgot I had posted a thread on this book. Funny thing is, today I couldn't find any references to The Joy Boys other than the later radio show with Willard Scott. Looks like I did a better job back in 2007.
39MrsLee
To my chagrined amusement, many of the factoids mentioned above are ones I have looked up again this time.
Does anyone understand Archie's reference to the Chinese army in chapter 5 when Wolfe doesn't want to send him out in the rain?
Does anyone understand Archie's reference to the Chinese army in chapter 5 when Wolfe doesn't want to send him out in the rain?
40Crypto-Willobie
>15 MrsLee: >39 MrsLee:
I don't think the Joy Boys could be Ms. Calloway's band because Wolfe hated music. "For barbarians" or some such, right?
>21 MrsLee:
Spiggoty. Some sources do conflate it with 'spic' but some suggest it is a form of 'spaghetti,' referring to Italians. But then Anglo bigots tended to conflate various kinds of 'guineas'.
>22 MrsLee:
Orrie's tobacco juice. Fer-de-lance's Orrie is much more Fred-ish, where later he became more Archie-ish.
Will there be a new thread for League of Frightened Men?
I don't think the Joy Boys could be Ms. Calloway's band because Wolfe hated music. "For barbarians" or some such, right?
>21 MrsLee:
Spiggoty. Some sources do conflate it with 'spic' but some suggest it is a form of 'spaghetti,' referring to Italians. But then Anglo bigots tended to conflate various kinds of 'guineas'.
>22 MrsLee:
Orrie's tobacco juice. Fer-de-lance's Orrie is much more Fred-ish, where later he became more Archie-ish.
Will there be a new thread for League of Frightened Men?
41MrsLee
>40 Crypto-Willobie: Do you think a new thread is needed? I think we can add to this one, if it's ok. I don't have a lot more to say than I have already written above, only that I am enjoying it possibly more than I have in the past?
42Crypto-Willobie
>41 MrsLee:
There doesn't seem to be much of anything about League of Frightened Men in the posts above -- or am I missing something?
I think one thread per book is best, but I wouldn't insist.
There doesn't seem to be much of anything about League of Frightened Men in the posts above -- or am I missing something?
I think one thread per book is best, but I wouldn't insist.
43rosalita
I think it's fine for this thread to serve as the discussion home for Fer-de-Lance. I agree with >42 Crypto-Willobie: that a separate thread for each book probably would be least confusing.
44MrsLee
>42 Crypto-Willobie: & >43 rosalita: Agreed, but perhaps we should search older posts before we start new ones to see if there are any there?
>42 Crypto-Willobie: ETA Whoops! I see you did! :) Will join you there when I finish this story. Almost there. I got past the icky snake bit, anyway.
>42 Crypto-Willobie: ETA Whoops! I see you did! :) Will join you there when I finish this story. Almost there. I got past the icky snake bit, anyway.
45Crypto-Willobie
The scene pf Wolfe killing the snake with his walking stick reminds me of the similar scene in Conan Doyle's The Speckled Band,
46MrsLee
>45 Crypto-Willobie: Actually, he killed it with a beer bottle, but yes, The Speckled Band and this story are linked in my head, too.
47Crypto-Willobie
D'oh, you're right, beer bottle...
... and I only reread it 10 days ago...
... and I only reread it 10 days ago...
48MrsLee
>47 Crypto-Willobie: LOL, I've read it at least 4 times, or more, and am still surprised. A good thing for my enjoyment of the book, but it doesn't say much for the quality of my memory.
I've finished it tonight.
Chapter 5 Does anyone know what the reference Archie makes to the Chinese army? Wolfe doesn't want him to go out in the rain, and he says something like, "I'm not the Chinese Army."
Not being a lawyer, I don't know, would any of that sure-fire evidence be admissible in a court of law today? Or even then? It changed hands at least five times before it was given to the officials.
I still don't think I mind what Wolfe did at the end, so long as he can bear it.
I've finished it tonight.
Chapter 5 Does anyone know what the reference Archie makes to the Chinese army? Wolfe doesn't want him to go out in the rain, and he says something like, "I'm not the Chinese Army."
Not being a lawyer, I don't know, would any of that sure-fire evidence be admissible in a court of law today? Or even then? It changed hands at least five times before it was given to the officials.
I still don't think I mind what Wolfe did at the end, so long as he can bear it.
49Crypto-Willobie
>48 MrsLee:
I think the Chinese army ref might be to The Long March which began in 1933 and apparently involved a lot of marching in rainy conditions.
https://alphahistory.com/chineserevolution/edgar-snow-on-the-long-march-1937/
I think the Chinese army ref might be to The Long March which began in 1933 and apparently involved a lot of marching in rainy conditions.
https://alphahistory.com/chineserevolution/edgar-snow-on-the-long-march-1937/
50MrsLee
>49 Crypto-Willobie: Ah, thank you. It felt like a reference to something real, not some sort of racial slur. Although it could have been. Archie seems much more biased in these early books than he does later in the series.
